EA - Finally ready to share my story w/insights from counseling

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Ya I do. I'm envious of her that they have a life together.....

At the same time I feel awful and bad for her.

 

I'm not sure if you're aware our A started before they were married. So their whole marraige.

 

There's like these parts: the part that's envious of her what she has.

The part that feels bad for her and is angry about it

And that part that's selfish that says but I need this fix my pain......because really that's what I was trying to fix.

 

Rescue me, love me, take care of me.....

 

I don't have anything more that I can add right this moment, but will let it simmer and see if anything else comes up to help you too. The one thing I thought when I read this is that if I were seeing someone who then he married someone else, I would be pissed that he committed to a marriage with her rather than commit to me. Ultimately, it seems your MM can't make a commitment to one person no matter who it is. He likes having more than one woman. Interesting how he chose which of you to commit to on the surface. Have you explored that? It would not be easy for me to dig deep on, but would be interesting (lack of better word) as to why he made the choices he did. Why can't he commit to one person? Is he love/intimacy avoidant? When he gets too close to her, he runs to you? When he gets too close to you, he runs to her? Just theories.

[Chica80]

I don't have anything more that I can add right this moment, but will let it simmer and see if anything else comes up to help you too. The one thing I thought when I read this is that if I were seeing someone who then he married someone else, I would be pissed that he committed to a marriage with her rather than commit to me. Ultimately, it seems your MM can't make a commitment to one person no matter who it is. He likes having more than one woman. Interesting how he chose which of you to commit to on the surface. Have you explored that? It would not be easy for me to dig deep on, but would be interesting (lack of better word) as to why he made the choices he did. Why can't he commit to one person? Is he love/intimacy avoidant? When he gets too close to her, he runs to you? When he gets too close to you, he runs to her? Just theories.

 

Yes....you've hit the nail on the head.

 

Yes. Love/avoidant

 

Me love/addict

 

He couldn't commit to me. I was M when it started. Would have to go through divorce etc....I have children.

 

His family would never accept that, (divorced w kids)

 

The only thing I really know about them is they don't fight.

At that point they had been together 6 yrs and he said they never fight... yes on the surface they look like the ideal perfect couple.

Perfect to fit in w family society etc. You can't be single after a certain age and move up...people look at you funny they don't trust you.

 

He never speaks ill of her. Has always said he loved her.

We are just different and bring different things.

 

We create intimacy in a way that is safe. Neither having to truly commit.

Yes when we get too close to much sharing or too open he backs away. I've done the same .....so there you go.

[Chica80]

Also this:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.healthcentral.com/amp/article/the-fear-of-intimacy

 

In some cases the person with a fear of intimacy may choose a mate who he or she deems as "safe" as in emotionally nurturing but not sexually exciting or romantic. This trade off ensures that if abandonment does happen it will not be as painful as a relationship involving romantic and sexual feelings.

 

It talks about those with fear of intimacy. So they choose a mate who is "safe" a good partner but not romantically or emotionally connected. They choose to obtain that elsewhere. So if abandonment happens it's not totally devestating. "If I don't invest all of myself I will be less hurt"

Edited May 22, 2017 by Sunshinechica

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Adding on to Elaine's post, here is the whole article:

 

 

Anyway, I just read this article this morning on another website and your post reminded me of it. So thought I would share, in case it is helpful to you:

 

Approaching Infidelity Eyes Wide Open

The Infidelity Megafecta

 

We don’t have to look too far to find someone who will declare that affairs are all about sex or lust. In fact, when the subject of infidelity arises we’ve probably all heard commentary that stems from that very notion:

He must have been sex starved at home.

Her husband was probably bad in bed.

Monogamy is unnatural.

Men will be men – they have needs.

She must be a nympho slut.

He’s a sex addict.

Affairs are popularly but incorrectly understood to be driven primarily (or even solely) by a pursuit of sex, especially when it concerns male cheaters. This message is created in part through general misunderstanding, by a pop culture that is being fed by the salacious depiction of affairs in the media and, more recently, by the lucrative ‘sexual recovery’ industry that continues to conveniently diagnose increasing numbers of cheaters as sex addicts.

 

While most affairs (though not all) do have an element of sexual interest and reward, it is not by any means the sole or primary incentive. In an affair a cheater seeks to satisfy a variety of motivations less overt than sexual desire, especially in the long term affair

 

It is perhaps in the drunken one night stand where sex might be considered as the sole driver, but even in this situation there are other components informing the choices that lead to that event.

 

So if sex isn’t what affairs are all about, what else is there?

 

The Narrative

Cheaters develop a narrative about why they cheated and they confess this rationale fully expecting it to be accepted as brutal honesty – the product of deep introspection. Not surprisingly, these admissions frequently take the form of tortured angst intended to convey a certain pathos. However subconsciously constructed, the cheater tries to preserve as positive a self view as possible by confessing what they feel are less damaging indictments of themselves.

 

These conveniently palatable narratives can range from how they were miserable for years, to staying for the kids, to sex addiction. One such popular smokescreen that we encounter at IHG is the cheater claiming that they were too fearful of causing upset to their spouse by addressing their concerns, or by leaving the marriage honorably. This open admission of cowardice is intended to sound honestly self-critical while still evoking a degree of empathy for their plight and dilemma.

 

The Infidelity Megafecta – Non-Sexual Factors

 

So let’s look at the non-sexual issues that rear their ugly heads in the course of an affair:

 

1. Power and Control

There is often an undercurrent of resentment in the cheater’s decision to have an affair, so affairs commonly have a retributive element to them. There are often power struggles within the marriage and even regular compromises can build resentment. In chatting these issues through with cheaters, it is apparent how they often use the affair as a way to exercise their personal power in their lives – they’ve made a significant choice for themselves without having to consult their spouse or compromise their own desires.

 

During an affair, the cheater has all the control. They are in possession of all the facts and decide who has access to that same level of information. They decide what their spouse is told, what the affair partner is told, what the rules are for the affair. They withhold access to information that might give others power in the situation, and use that withholding to preserve their marriage while enjoying the escape and sanctuary the affair represents.

 

Whilst few will admit it, an affair is often the cheater’s own private rebellion against societal norms, familial expectations, religious teachings, and their own dissatisfactions. It can be a way to covertly undermine a dynamic in which the cheater believes themselves to be trapped or in some way disadvantaged.

 

2. Entitlement

None of us live perfect lives absent of disappointments, stress, and dissatisfactions, but how we respond to our internal and external stressors is largely governed by our beliefs and world view.

 

Cheaters feel entitled to respond to their stressors by breaking their promises of monogamy while pretending to their spouse that the agreement is still in place. Their pursuit of their own satisfaction is not limited by their agreements and commitments, or their duty of care to others – they believe that they are entitled to pursue their own desires without first extricating themselves from any conflicting commitments, simply because they want to enjoy the benefits of both relationships.

 

Cheaters not only feel entitled to continue to benefit from their marriage and spouse while enjoying the pleasures of their affair, but they feel entitled to do what it takes to create and maintain the conditions necessary for that to happen. They happily feed misinformation and lies to their spouse to maintain the secrecy of the affair so that their marital benefits are secure and undisturbed.

 

However, entitlement is a mindset that permeates decision making in general and doesn’t suddenly and solely manifest in an affair. As we explored in Affair Fog Theory: Character Change, entitlement is a pervasive mindset that can result in a slew of other behaviors. When talking to cheaters it is easy to identify all manner of minor and major examples of entitled thinking and behavior:

 

entitlement:

petty theft, embezzlement, outrage when things don’t work in their favor, sneakiness, debt problems, believing any personal punishment is largely unfair, fraud, shirking their share of childcare/household duties, promise breaking, carpe diem approach to life, blaming bad behavior on alcohol/addiction/peer pressure etc, selfishness, believing that ‘petty’ social rules don’t apply to them

IHG: Affair Fog Theory: Character Change

 

This leads us to another issue in the affair megafecta:

 

3. Manipulation

Feeling entitled to control the secret of an affair results in a power imbalance in the relationship. Further weight is added to this by the cheater’s deliberate intent to exploit the trusting nature of the marital relationship.

 

The cheater knowingly employs manipulation to engineer a response in the faithful spouse. Gaslighting is a common manipulation strategy that is employed to keep the faithful spouse off balance, in the dark, and in place. While many cheaters employ these manipulations as a means to an end (keeping the spouse in place), there are those to whom the manipulation itself is the end. The satisfaction, power, and sense of superiority gained by manipulating someone can validate and reinforce someone’s personal narrative and world view.

 

Cheaters can be highly manipulative and skilled liars, who have the wherewithal to tap into the faithful spouse’s own weaknesses, dreams, and prejudices to engineer certain outcomes for themselves. The insidious nature of being manipulated by a spouse in this way can be severely damaging and can have long term affect on the faithful spouse’s mental state.

 

We should also accept though that we all have the capacity to manipulate situations and circumstances in line with our own agendas – but why aren’t we all employing similarly damaging strategies to get what we want? This question leads us to the ‘absent parent’ in affairs:

 

4. Ethical Behavior

In general we modulate our sense of entitlement, power, control, and propensity to manipulate with ethical behavior and thinking – our choices are made from the foundations of our ethical framework.

 

General stresses and dissatisfactions don’t negate our capacity to make ethical choices. When people make unethical choices they choose to deliberately ignore the ethical structure that they otherwise use to navigate life.

 

Cheating is fundamentally an issue of ethics. That a cheater chooses to behave in abusive and manipulative ways is clear evidence that they are prepared to put ethical behavior aside in order to satisfy their own desires. That is sufficient reason to make any notion of reconciliation contingent on clear, observable and sustained change in the cheater’s thinking and world view.

 

5. Avoidance

Are affairs about sex?Many cheaters proffer the narrative of their fear as their reason for choosing to have an affair – fear of upsetting the spouse, fear of change, fear of affecting the kids etc.

 

The cheater might prefer to avoid those consequences, but avoidant choices aren’t necessarily fearful. We might avoid certain situations because they’re not enjoyable, not because we feel threatened by them. We might avoid marriage not because we fear it, but because we prefer to remain single. We often avoid ending unhealthy or unfulfilling relationships not because we are pusillanimous, but because we want to avail ourselves of the benefits we perceive from that relationship.

 

A cheater chooses to have an affair instead of addressing their issues ethically, in order to avoid any detrimental consequences. Using fear to justify an affair is a red herring: if you fear the consequences of exiting a marriage, work within the marriage to resolve your internal issues. Going outside the marriage by having an affair will increase the likelihood that you will face what you claim to fear.

 

Divorce does have a cost but if you want to exit your marriage, do so honorably and ethically. In that way you avoid paying the additional price of your integrity, your ethical principles, and the respect of others.

 

6. Value

When we tie all of this together into the unpalatable bundle of an affair it’s hardly surprising that the faithful spouse reacts so severely. It can damage the faithful spouse’s sense of identity to be faced with the reality of how low they are on the cheater’s totem pole in terms of merit. To learn that they are considered to be acceptable collateral damage in the cheater’s pursuit of their own enjoyment and satisfaction, and that they don’t merit honest, honorable or ethical treatment, is devastating. An affair clearly signals that the cheater does not consider their spouse deserving of such basic treatment.

 

An affair is evidence that the cheater will happily exact a price from their spouse in the pursuit of their own enjoyment. It demonstrates how high a value the cheater places on their own satisfaction and happiness, and how little they value that of their spouse. It is a clear indication that the cheater has invested their energy and emotional commitment in their affair partner and that they considered their spouse’s emotional well-being as less important.

 

It’s easy to characterize oneself as selfish and be somewhat satisfied with that because it connotes notions of self-preservation and survival. What is less easy to brush off is that an affair’s inherent selfishness is one thing, but the resultant message to the faithful spouse is one of value and trade. An affair communicates that a cheater is willing to trade what they perceive as having lesser value – their spouse’s well-being, for what they perceive has greater value – the cheater getting their jollies.

 

Reconciliation

While cheaters often characterize their affairs as a fantasy, their marital situation is an ever-present reality. At every interaction with the affair partner, and at every affair maneuver, they reinforced their willingness to mistreat their spouse to facilitate their own gratification.

 

Many cheaters will profess ownership of their choices and a desire to change but it’s worth noting that many are actually rather well-versed in Reconciliation Speak, gleaned from support boards or marital therapists.

 

So many of these apparently informed and ‘personally accountable’ cheaters seem staunch advocates of the Reconciliation Speak narrative, but it is of serious concern that they are unable to adequately or consistently address even the most basic examination of their ethics and manipulations, or the issues of retribution and power and control.

 

It’s uglier and less appealing to discuss cheating in terms of control and resentment than it is to describe it in terms of escapism and fear (which veers dangerously close to victimhood). When pressed in discussions with us, the overwhelming majority of cheaters fall back into their default narrative (usually that they were driven to it in some way).

 

It’s normal and healthy for people to seek a level of personal power and control in their lives. However, it’s wise to look at how we go about it, where we lack it, and how we can healthily achieve it. The factors described here should prompt a more authentic line of self exploration in the cheater than the substitutions they often make with the far more palatable concept of ‘their fear’.

 

Unsurprisingly, redirecting people to the harsher realities of the underlying causes of affairs can bring vehement denial and opposition. What is particularly worrying, however, is not that the cheater clings to the prettier narrative, but that the faithful spouse seeking reconciliation does so.

[Chica80]

Adding on to Elaine's post, here is the whole article:

 

Yes I read the whole article, thank you.....

 

It reflected alot of my own thoughts that I couldn't quite figure out or put in to words. Because it actually makes sense.

 

Sometimes it's difficult to come on LS you get the same dribble over and over the same devoid answers.

 

"It's all about sex"

"It's just fantasy"

"It's affair fog"

 

I posted this in a different thread, but the power and control really stuck out.

The article talks about how the married AP chooses what info to give out to who. They are the only one who knows the whole truth. I said this to him once: it's like there is this puzzle but we only get pieces of it. Are supposed to make it fit But you, YOU are the only one who sees the whole puzzle.

His response..." wow that was deep, you're getting deep on me now..."

[Birdies]

Interesting. That article really spoke to me (as a formerly MW involved with a MM, and still processing it all). The Entitlement portion ("I deserve to have this affair and also keep my marriage because XYZ"...in my case because I felt like I did so much for my H and felt neglected, so I deserved to explore something on the side just for a little while - stupid and selfish, I know). And the Avoidance portion - burying my head in the "sand" of an affair to distract me from the issues that I couldn't talk about, or that we would talk about and never come to any resolution, and the general issue of loving someone and having spent your WHOLE life with them and not even envisioning a world without them - but also feeling really anxious about your future together.

 

I definitely didn't have any of the power imbalance or manipulation motives. I hated feeling like such a selfish b*tch and didn't get off on the extra control or whatever. All the secrecy and dishonesty just stressed me the fck out. I can see how a lot of narcissist men could easily fit into that role though!

[FoundMyStrength]

I agree with an Sunshine that a lot of LS responses are not nearly nuanced enough to really capture the dynamics of an affair, at least the way I experienced it.

 

My xMM showed most of the qualities described in this article. Power and control, particularly of the progression of the affair and my knowledge of his true feelings and motivations. It was like he parceled that information out strategically to pull me in, push me away, and generally keep me in line with how he saw the affair unfolding. I believe he also wielded little control in his marriage, was unhappy with that, and this was his way of having something special for himself that she had no say in.

 

Entitlement, particularly of his own enjoyment. He had a fascination with the word indulgence. He said it many times in our discussions of what was happening. The affair was an indulgence, he felt like he was being indulgent, he felt bad for indulging. I honestly can't stand that word now. But it was as though he felt like he deserved a treat after such hard work being a husband. And our walks and talks and cuddles and connection were his after dinner chocolate. I think he ultimately had plans for me to be his mistress abroad as he was trying to line up a full time job back here where I live. Wouldn't that have been the perfect cake eating setup?

 

He had an ability to warp his ethics and to try to convince me to warp mine. His narrative was that he fell in love, it took him by surprise, and he was doing the best he could with a bad situation. I would say I felt guilty for intruding on his marriage, and he would say don't, you're not an interloper, you're just the woman I fell in love with. He also tried to make it seem like his decision to not tell her was borne from an ethical duty to not hurt her. Same for his decision to stay in his marriage and not leave. But I guess an affair was a-okay in his eyes.

 

My xMM rarely spoke ill of his wife, and I certainly never encouraged him to do so. But his attitude toward her had an air of veiled contempt. He hid it well though. In public conversations, he would make it seem like he had the perfect marriage. But in private, there was a note of condescension. Honestly I think he resented her for the fact that he wasn't her first choice. He waited for years for her as a friend before she extricated herself from a relationship to be with him. Something he once said made me think that part of the affair indulgence was that he was now in her position. He was now the committed person with someone else yearning to be with him. I think my adoration made him feel worthy, whereas being his wife's *eventual* choice made him feel sh***y.

Edited May 22, 2017 by FoundMyStrength

[Chica80]

He also tried to make it seem like his decision to not tell her was borne from an ethical duty to not hurt her. Same for his decision to stay in his marriage and not leave. But I guess an affair was a-okay in his eyes.

 

Ya Interesting how that works huh.....

[Vivir]

My opinion is do your best to release the shame, because shame keeps you stuck in the muck. I am going to confess something here...may not sound nice but it is honest. I wonder how many OW/OM might share similar feelings, however unpopular. Whereas you felt shame as OW because you saw how your dad's infidelity tore up your mom, I felt anger and disrespect towards xMM's BS because I projected my own mother's weakness onto her.

 

HMOAB, I am so happy to learn that after these many months of NC, you are turning a corner in your healing :-)

What I quoted above resonates with me. I have not posted about it because (though one day I came very close) I know very well that the sentiment is wholly unpopular. I, too, find myself feeling an incredible amount of shame about my anger toward the BS in my case, though not for the same reason. If I ever get to therapy, this issue will probably be at the top of the list for me. It also stems from childhood and has carried over into my adult life and has obviously had a far-reaching impact on my behavior and actions.

[freengreen]

Hmoab,

 

We resonate , the EA squad, I mean reading all the stories here, its fairly apparent that EA is laughably stupid to men and I thought it was 'true love'... * bangs head to wall*

 

Yes, I was lying, sneaking and was selfish while it lasted, I am not afriad to own my gibber. But boy once you get out of the fog, you feel so cringed.

 

In fog:

AP: You will have no respect for yourself. I will ignore you, disappear when I feel like,play with you, throw beautiful words and you will worship me.

Me: aye aye , Its my honor to suck*bows*

 

Thru fog:

AP: You will have no respect for yourself. I will ignore you, disappear when I feel like,play with you, throw beautiful words and you will worship me.

Me: riiiight *runs away'*

 

Then comes the real salavation.

[Chica80]

Hmoab,

 

We resonate , the EA squad, I mean reading all the stories here, its fairly apparent that EA is laughably stupid to men and I thought it was 'true love'... * bangs head to wall*

 

Yes, I was lying, sneaking and was selfish while it lasted, I am not afriad to own my gibber. But boy once you get out of the fog, you feel so cringed.

 

In fog:

AP: You will have no respect for yourself. I will ignore you, disappear when I feel like,play with you, throw beautiful words and you will worship me.

Me: aye aye , Its my honor to suck*bows*

 

Thru fog:

AP: You will have no respect for yourself. I will ignore you, disappear when I feel like,play with you, throw beautiful words and you will worship me.

Me: riiiight *runs away'*

 

Then comes the real salavation.

 

Hahaha.......so true....

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Yes I read the whole article, thank you.....

 

It reflected alot of my own thoughts that I couldn't quite figure out or put in to words. Because it actually makes sense.

 

Sometimes it's difficult to come on LS you get the same dribble over and over the same devoid answers.

 

"It's all about sex"

"It's just fantasy"

"It's affair fog"

 

I posted this in a different thread, but the power and control really stuck out.

The article talks about how the married AP chooses what info to give out to who. They are the only one who knows the whole truth. I said this to him once: it's like there is this puzzle but we only get pieces of it. Are supposed to make it fit But you, YOU are the only one who sees the whole puzzle.

His response..." wow that was deep, you're getting deep on me now..."

 

Yeah, part of the "conditioning" as in, your job is not to make me think; it is to make me FEEL GOOD! Bolded statement above is akin to my xMM's statement a couple months into the A when after I told him he can talk to me like a real friend about what is happening in his life, he responded, "Ut oh. You sound so serious now." God forbid he actually connected to me on a human emotional level--even in the most basic the way that regular friends do.

[Chica80]

Yeah, part of the "conditioning" as in, your job is not to make me think; it is to make me FEEL GOOD! Bolded statement above is akin to my xMM's statement a couple months into the A when after I told him he can talk to me like a real friend about what is happening in his life, he responded, "Ut oh. You sound so serious now." God forbid he actually connected to me on a human emotional level--even in the most basic the way that regular friends do.

 

yup!!! me too...What we disagreed about the other day.

 

I said "god forbid you actually express some sort of emotion"

 

The thing is one of the things he likes about me the most is that I am so emotional. I wear my heart and emotions on my face, on my whole person. He is very, very logical...(apart from this). No emotions.

 

That's why your article spoke to me so much I think. It answered so many internal questions I had....that always just seemed to go around in circular discussions.

I discussed with my therapist yesterday. I read her the article.

[FoundMyStrength]

yup!!! me too...What we disagreed about the other day.

 

I said "god forbid you actually express some sort of emotion"

 

The thing is one of the things he likes about me the most is that I am so emotional. I wear my heart and emotions on my face, on my whole person. He is very, very logical...(apart from this). No emotions.

 

That's why your article spoke to me so much I think. It answered so many internal questions I had....that always just seemed to go around in circular discussions.

I discussed with my therapist yesterday. I read her the article.

 

So interesting. My xMM also was very logical and practical, whereas I am super emotional and open. I feel like my emotionality opened him up a but, which was part of the draw for him. I got the impression he found it hard to talk about his emotions with his wife. One time he looked at me with a wonderment of sorts as he said, "You listen to me.". All I had done was remember something he had told me a few weeks earlier. It kind of shocked me.

 

Sad thing is, he never told her about us, so my guess is that that situation is even worse now. Despite his proclamation that he would be a better husband from now on. How can you be a better husband with such a huge, damaging secret?

[HadMeOverABarrel]

yup!!! me too...What we disagreed about the other day.

 

I said "god forbid you actually express some sort of emotion"

 

The thing is one of the things he likes about me the most is that I am so emotional. I wear my heart and emotions on my face, on my whole person. He is very, very logical...(apart from this). No emotions.

 

That's why your article spoke to me so much I think. It answered so many internal questions I had....that always just seemed to go around in circular discussions.

I discussed with my therapist yesterday. I read her the article.

 

I am dying to know your therapist's perspective on the article!

[HadMeOverABarrel]

So interesting. My xMM also was very logical and practical, whereas I am super emotional and open. I feel like my emotionality opened him up a but, which was part of the draw for him. I got the impression he found it hard to talk about his emotions with his wife. One time he looked at me with a wonderment of sorts as he said, "You listen to me.". All I had done was remember something he had told me a few weeks earlier. It kind of shocked me.

 

Sad thing is, he never told her about us, so my guess is that that situation is even worse now. Despite his proclamation that he would be a better husband from now on. How can you be a better husband with such a huge, damaging secret?

 

FoundMyStrength, I swear you and I are living in a parallel reality with this. I really don't believe my xMM told his wife either (stalking her Facebook page after I went NC told me so) and I have thought the exact same thing as you! Evil as it is, I have had moments where I've thought...their marriage is doomed to fail at some point because he will never come clean, and what I have learned from LS is that R is practically impossible without that. Unless the WW is a total pycho-/sociopath, there must be a small part inside them that eats at them and keeps them from fully reconnecting to BS when they haven't confessed the truth.

 

I also remember a time when xMM shared something that was stressing him out and I replied, "Whatever is important to you is important to me." He thanked me in a sweet, surprised tone and seemed blown away by my sincere interest in his issues. My theory is WW cheat bc there is a disconnect in their marriage (and they are too passive aggressive to handle it properly with their spouse). Maybe after the disconnect has gone on for a while, the WW is surprised to feel that connection with someone else bc maybe they have forgotten what it feels like. ??

Edited May 26, 2017 by HadMeOverABarrel
typo

[HadMeOverABarrel]

yup!!! me too...What we disagreed about the other day.

 

I said "god forbid you actually express some sort of emotion"

 

The thing is one of the things he likes about me the most is that I am so emotional. I wear my heart and emotions on my face, on my whole person. He is very, very logical...(apart from this). No emotions.

 

That's why your article spoke to me so much I think. It answered so many internal questions I had....that always just seemed to go around in circular discussions.

I discussed with my therapist yesterday. I read her the article.

 

Oh, and another thing...I think unemotional people sometimes find partners who are emotionally expressive so they can emote by proxy. Perhaps unemotional people feel afraid to show emotion because it would make them feel out of control...but those emotions are still below the surface. They can find relief by connecting with a more emotive partner.

[Chica80]

I am dying to know your therapist's perspective on the article!

 

I didn't read her the whole thing. The part that talked about Power and Control, as that's what stuck out to me the most.

 

Whilst few will*admit it, an affair is often the cheater’s own private rebellion against societal norms, familial expectations, religious teachings, and their obligations, fueled by their own dissatisfactions.

 

This......

How I think this is what drew us together. For myself as well.

 

Basically I am here, trying to understand, trying to heal trying to change my patterns or get to the root of the whys.....But he is not...

[Chica80]

Oh, and another thing...I think unemotional people sometimes find partners who are emotionally expressive so they can emote by proxy. Perhaps unemotional people feel afraid to show emotion because it would make them feel out of control...but those emotions are still below the surface. They can find relief by connecting with a more emotive partner.

 

YES...

 

Love avoidant/ Love addict

 

Or avoidant attachment/ and anxious attachment.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Oh, and another thing...I think unemotional people sometimes find partners who are emotionally expressive so they can emote by proxy. Perhaps unemotional people feel afraid to show emotion because it would make them feel out of control...but those emotions are still below the surface. They can find relief by connecting with a more emotive partner.

 

YES...

 

Love avoidant/ Love addict

 

Or avoidant attachment/ and anxious attachment.

 

Hmm...interesting. I hadn't made the connection between the above two quotes. Makes sense. Please share what you know about the dynamics, especially within the affair dynamic. I can see how the patterns of A (WW has power and control) would mimic love avoidant/addict (WW avoidant feels safer when in control while addict OW/OM seeks their elusive validation). Is this your understanding? What else can you add?

 

I like the following article which has this quote, "Essentially, the article states that the love addict has a conscious fear of being abandoned and a subconscious fear of being alone. In contrast, the love avoidant has conscious fear of being controlled and a subconscious one of being abandoned. So they are both very similar, just on two ends of the spectrum. Both will lean onto each other unknowing of the underlying reasons that cause the two to gravitate toward each other."

 

The ?Dance? of Love: The Love Addict vs The Love Avoidant

[Chica80]

Hmm...interesting. I hadn't made the connection between the above two quotes. Makes sense. Please share what you know about the dynamics, especially within the affair dynamic. I can see how the patterns of A (WW has power and control) would mimic love avoidant/addict (WW avoidant feels safer when in control while addict OW/OM seeks their elusive validation). Is this your understanding? What else can you add?

 

I like the following article which has this quote, "Essentially, the article states that the love addict has a conscious fear of being abandoned and a subconscious fear of being alone. In contrast, the love avoidant has conscious fear of being controlled and a subconscious one of being abandoned. So they are both very similar, just on two ends of the spectrum. Both will lean onto each other unknowing of the underlying reasons that cause the two to gravitate toward each other."

 

The ?Dance? of Love: The Love Addict vs The Love Avoidant

 

I hadn't read that article per say but I have read others on the subject.

The bolded part is what I have read on other places too.

 

I will try to answer as best as I understand it. And can only answer from my experience.

 

I seek/seeked love outwardly as I didn't know how to find it inwardly. Childhood trauma, the need for love and validation, the transforming myself to fit whatever and whoever I needed to be in order to get that love. (addict) My fear consciously was being abandoned. "no one can or will truly love me, everyone leaves me" And when someone got to close or things felt too stable, create chaos. Create a means to push you away. I will push and push until you leave....The thing though is they didn't my ex past relationships. I left. I'm going to leave you before you leave me. That's the conscious fear of abandonment at the forefront.

My AP, very very much like my father he reminds me of him a lot. I felt if I could get this man to love me to choose me, this man I admire that I think is so amazing...than I'm worth it. That will finally prove to me that I am worthy of love.....However....I pick someone who will not choose me. Who will always keep me at a certain arms length, never totally letting me in. I open up of myself I share, I'm truly a side of myself that I wasn't even with my x. So....that only serves to reinforce the thoughts I had about myself, see I'm open raw and you don't want me.

 

 

So the avoidant....they have the "power" they hold it....Right in the beginning they give it freely it draws the person "seeking" the love. The addict. The constant chase for love. For the one for your "soulmate" (which I don't believe in btw). The addict thinks this is it, I found the one, who will fill me who will love me, who truly understands me. Or so it seems...and thus the rollercoaster ride begins.

 

Because on the surface the avoidants fear is enmeshment, or being controlled. Their subconscious fear is abandonment. So they control the relationship. The constant back and forth. Lets say for example Avoidant=MM, Addict=OW.

 

The OW and MM get close, uh oh but not too close....so MM backs away retreats regains power by withdrawing or withholding emotions, (if I control the emotions I have the power.) OW pushes and pushes for more so MM retreats more. OW gets upset forget it it's over I'm moving on. OW back away...the other way. MM comes back....nope ILY I miss you whatever to reel the person back in until the next roller coaster ride.

 

The Intimacy-Avoidant Couples Affair

 

Conflict Avoidant Couples and Affairs

 

Understanding the Needs of the Anxious/Preoccupied Attachment Style - The Love Compass

 

https://psychcentral.com/lib/how-to-change-your-attachment-style/

 

Pursuers with an anxious style are usually disinterested in someone available with a secure style. They usually attract someone who is avoidant. The anxiety of an insecure attachment is enlivening and familiar, though it’s uncomfortable and makes them more anxious. It validates their abandonment fears about relationships and beliefs about not being enough, lovable, or securely loved.

Distancers need someone pursuing them to sustain their emotional needs that they largely disown and which wouldn’t be met by another avoider. Unlike those securely attached, pursuers and distancers aren’t skilled at resolving disagreements. They tend to become defensive and attack or withdraw, escalating conflict. Without the chase, conflict, or compulsive behavior, both pursuers and distancers begin to feel depressed and empty due to their painful early attachments.

 

Here are some more info for reading.....I don't know if this was helpful or answered your question.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Sunshinechica

[freengreen]

I hadn't read that article per say but I have read others on the subject.

The bolded part is what I have read on other places too.

 

I will try to answer as best as I understand it. And can only answer from my experience.

 

I seek/seeked love outwardly as I didn't know how to find it inwardly. Childhood trauma, the need for love and validation, the transforming myself to fit whatever and whoever I needed to be in order to get that love. (addict) My fear consciously was being abandoned. "no one can or will truly love me, everyone leaves me" And when someone got to close or things felt too stable, create chaos. Create a means to push you away. I will push and push until you leave....The thing though is they didn't my ex past relationships. I left. I'm going to leave you before you leave me. That's the conscious fear of abandonment at the forefront.

My AP, very very much like my father he reminds me of him a lot. I felt if I could get this man to love me to choose me, this man I admire that I think is so amazing...than I'm worth it. That will finally prove to me that I am worthy of love.....However....I pick someone who will not choose me. Who will always keep me at a certain arms length, never totally letting me in. I open up of myself I share, I'm truly a side of myself that I wasn't even with my x. So....that only serves to reinforce the thoughts I had about myself, see I'm open raw and you don't want me.

 

 

So the avoidant....they have the "power" they hold it....Right in the beginning they give it freely it draws the person "seeking" the love. The addict. The constant chase for love. For the one for your "soulmate" (which I don't believe in btw). The addict thinks this is it, I found the one, who will fill me who will love me, who truly understands me. Or so it seems...and thus the rollercoaster ride begins.

 

Because on the surface the avoidants fear is enmeshment, or being controlled. Their subconscious fear is abandonment. So they control the relationship. The constant back and forth. Lets say for example Avoidant=MM, Addict=OW.

 

The OW and MM get close, uh oh but not too close....so MM backs away retreats regains power by withdrawing or withholding emotions, (if I control the emotions I have the power.) OW pushes and pushes for more so MM retreats more. OW gets upset forget it it's over I'm moving on. OW back away...the other way. MM comes back....nope ILY I miss you whatever to reel the person back in until the next roller coaster ride.

 

The Intimacy-Avoidant Couples Affair

 

Conflict Avoidant Couples and Affairs

 

Understanding the Needs of the Anxious/Preoccupied Attachment Style - The Love Compass

 

https://psychcentral.com/lib/how-to-change-your-attachment-style/

 

Here are some more info for reading.....I don't know if this was helpful or answered your question.

wow... these articles.... it feels so silly that it was all text book and nothing was 'unique love'... Thanks Chica!

[Chica80]

wow... these articles.... it feels so silly that it was all text book and nothing was 'unique love'... Thanks Chica!

 

It's not silly...you don't know what you don't know....only what you've been taught.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I don't know if this was helpful or answered your question.

 

Hello! I have not yet read the articles you pasted here but will when I have a moment to reflect pensively. Meanwhile, just wanted to reply. Thank you for your two cents. It's helpful in the sense that it highlights something within myself that I would like to explore. What is interesting to me is that I identify with the love addict dynamic in the relationship. In romantic relationships, I am very generous, kind, considerate, nurturing, affectionate, and caring. I have been involved with men who start strong in expressing their desire for me and pursued me (in some cases I feel like they finally wore down my resistance). BUT, after they knew they won me, or after I became more available to them, they withdrew in a sense...or maybe I just wanted more? I remember feeling neglected (hmm...and now that I am analyzing this, I did feel very neglected in childhood). So, I learned early in my dating life that if a guy seems to be flagging on interest/availability/etc., I simply needed to pull back a little and very soon he'd be in hot pursuit again. Now I am questioning the health of that whole dynamic--it is push/pull.

 

Sunshinechica, you say that you push/pull? as the love addict? Did I understand that correctly on both counts? Another two things with this...my pull back to make the man pursue didn't make xMM pursue. That frustrated me to no end and made me feel like he didn't really want me. I didn't have the tools to regain the supreme sweetness, affection, adoration (like super high levels) he exhibited to me in the first couple months. I spent months afterwards trying to figure out if he lost interest but was too cowardly to say so. On the other hand, he was fairly engaging in his writing during those months I was questioning his interest. He acknowledged what was going on in my own life, sympathized, but I hated when he avoided my questions about him. I would say to myself (because this has become my understanding after 2 decades of dating), "Self, if he is still putting forth effort, he is still interested. On the other hand, no man who is interested will allow so much opportunity for another man to access his girl." I don't know how much of this was affected by the A dynamic, him not acting like other men bc of his personality, or if he really lacked interest enough to pursue. I always felt like he wouldn't quite see how amazing I am--like he just wouldn't give me that chance. I also felt he held back so much and that was terrible. The entire year I felt he was like an emotional/sexual/spiritual boil just ready to burst and I wanted to pop him. I could sense a super deep well of emotion under the surface that was desperate to come out (why I believe he had anxiety and panic episodes), but he just kept it under control. It was so close there but I just couldn't tap it--he wouldn't let me. That became quite painful for me as time went on. I even remember writing him that I wanted him to express himself to me and that he would find great relief in doing so. He just would not. I told him to just be more of who he already is--I admire him for who he is and it makes me happy when he shares himself with me. He struggled with it I think. Now, I believe he wouldn't because he clung so tightly to control. I think he had a great sense of losing control with me, which is what I felt he needed. He had said towards the end that seeing me was too difficult because he was afraid he'd get too into the physical part of it and become addicted. Of course, in my mind, I was like, "then become addicted...because I'm going to be so good to you and it will feel so good for you. I am trustworthy with your heart and life." I was frustrated that he just wouldn't let go and experience it. It made me feel like he rejected my love. He chose an unattractive person (my opinion based on seeing her pictures and reading what she has written and knowing choices she has made in life), his wife, over me.

 

Another puzzle for me is that my counselor, who I believe is competent with 30 years of experience, told me I am not a love addict. I had been reading about this topic online, told her I relate to the love addict dynamic in romance, and asked her what she thought. She said I am not. I believe she said this because outside of a romantic relationship, I am super independent in every way imaginable. I can happily go years without being in a romantic relationship. I'm thinking to go back to counseling in a few weeks and will bring this up to her again more insistently.

 

Hugs, Sunshine!

Edited May 27, 2017 by HadMeOverABarrel

[Chica80]

It's difficult to really know, what someone else is thinking or know why they do what they do?

 

Is it really that he is so control of his emotions and is so afraid to let you in......or are you projecting your own feelings and what you hope is true. I can't really answer that for you, no one can because no one else is there.

 

Ultimately it doesn't really matter in the sense if it's true or not true. If you really are a love addict or not. I think if you identify with it, if somehow it fits, if it gives you a piece of that missing puzzle if it helps you on a path to healing. And helps you want to change the behaviors and patterns in your life that are harmful then that's the answer. Just my two cents.

 

But yes. For myself I very much identify with the push/pull. In the beginning I didn't realize what it was or why we did that. But as time went on as I tried to learn and read and understand, I learned alot about him and also about myself.

I learned to express things I felt. Sometimes it was obvious and sometimes the answer not so much. Sometimes a feeling would trigger something else, and sometimes the reason was something alot deeper.

 

Now I just ask or talk about it.

"When you do this it makes me feel like that"

"I feel..."

"Was your intention...this?....because that's how I understood it"

 

In one sense there is nothing unique about my dynamic or my A. It can be others story.

 

But in one sense it's different in that we/he have created a safe space to talk. To learn how to communicate. I've learned how to argue or fight in a "healthy" way if that makes sense. I've learned alot about myself and those are things I'll take with me.

 

"Good people" have A, but Healthy people dont.

 

"Sometimes the place you are use to is not the place you belong"

Edited May 27, 2017 by Sunshinechica