Are MMs who feel absolutely no guilt for hurting their wives sociopaths?

[lilacwine]

I have read many stories on this forum. There seem to be two kinds of MMs: Those who feel enormous guilt toward their wives and then exhibit push-pull behaviors during the affair and those who feel no guilt at all and even in fact take pride in having two women fulfilling their needs.

 

I just wonder whether those who feel no guilt are all sociopaths and are absolutely incapable of empathy. Your thoughts?

[Adoraxx]

There is one more kind of MM's:

 

The one that uses 'guilt' as a convenient excuse to get rid of the OW after he got what he wanted. But secretly he is proud of himself that he has / had two/ three/ four/ five women to fulfill his needs...

[elaine567]

This will not be a popular view since it is on the OW/OM forum, but not only are many MM could be seen as sociopaths with little empathy for anyone, but so are some of the women that get involved with such men. They know by "fooling around" that they will hurt other women, men and small children, yet continue unabashed and play the victim card too.

 

The "pity play" shown by some, and I emphasise some, in the face of their continued "bad" behaviour, is more akin to that employed by the sociopath, than the "vulnerable" women they claim to be.

 

The combination of consistently bad or inadequate behavior and frequent pity plays, Stout continues, is the closest thing to a warning you’ll ever get that you are being manipulated by a sociopath.

[starswewillnavigate]

There is one more kind of MM's:

 

The one that uses 'guilt' as a convenient excuse to get rid of the OW after he got what he wanted. But secretly he is proud of himself that he has / had two/ three/ four/ five women to fulfill his needs...

 

Yep, I can relate to this one!

 

I was thinking along similar lines the other night, about different MM who get into an A. Those who are serial cheaters and those who happen to meet someone else, have an A, fall in love and have the make/break decision with their BS.

 

My xMM is no doubt a serial cheater, he admitted to me at least one previous affair and is on a dating site to attract more. There's a sex addict element in there as well. The more I thought about it, the more I realised he's actually very similar in behaviour to my first long term partner (Mr A), who I was with for nearly a decade, and was a serial cheater and has sex addict behaviour. I still chat to Mr A on occasion (yes, despite the pain he caused, we always had a very good friendship) and recently asked him why he cheated, his reply "because I can."

[DKT3]

This will not be a popular view since it is on the OW/OM forum, but not only are many MM could be seen as sociopaths with little empathy for anyone, but so are some of the women that get involved with such men. They know by "fooling around" that they will hurt other women, men and small children, yet continue unabashed and play the victim card too.

 

The "pity play" shown by some, and I emphasise some, in the face of their continued "bad" behaviour, is more akin to that employed by the sociopath, than the "vulnerable" women they claim to be.

 

Absolutely agree....change some to most.

[imperfectangel]

You can hurt other people in a variety of ways in many situations through life. If you always put everyone else first you would never find happiness.

 

Should I feel bad because my taxi arrived first this morning so another woman had to stand in the rain longer? Maybe for a few seconds in the moment.

 

Should I feel bad every time I eat because they're starving people in the world?

 

Doesn't make someone a physco to want a bit of happiness

[DKT3]

You can hurt other people in a variety of ways in many situations through life. If you always put everyone else first you would never find happiness.

 

Should I feel bad because my taxi arrived first this morning so another woman had to stand in the rain longer? Maybe for a few seconds in the moment.

 

Should I feel bad every time I eat because they're starving people in the world?

 

Doesn't make someone a physco to want a bit of happiness

 

Being involved with a married man (especially if your a married woman) is more like knocking the woman to the ground to get that cab, or taking to food away from a starving person. You are knowingly, willingly and intentionally hurting people. No way around it, no way to justify or rationalize it.

[elaine567]

You can hurt other people in a variety of ways in many situations through life. If you always put everyone else first you would never find happiness.

 

Should I feel bad because my taxi arrived first this morning so another woman had to stand in the rain longer? Maybe for a few seconds in the moment.

 

Should I feel bad every time I eat because they're starving people in the world?

 

Doesn't make someone a physco to want a bit of happiness

 

Ok to want happiness, but at the expense of someone else, really?

There are loads of unknown people we may hurt everyday in some way, most of us with a conscience try to avoid that if we can, and I agree sometimes we just can't or we would send ourselves mad trying, but that is a lot different from knowingly mucking up Mrs Jones and her children's lives by sleeping with Mr Jones.

They are not unknown people.

It is a deliberate act.

It shows a lack of empathy, surely?

[imperfectangel]

But if mr jones didn't drop his trousers then another woman wouldn't have that opportunity.

 

I'm not blameless no but I'll never understand women that flat out blame the other woman. No affair can happen if the mr isn't willing

[elaine567]

But if mr jones didn't drop his trousers then another woman wouldn't have that opportunity.

 

I'm not blameless no but I'll never understand women that flat out blame the other woman. No affair can happen if the mr isn't willing

 

But it is about not solely "blaming" the OW for affairs, of course the MM needs to take some responsibility too.

The OW however does need to have some lack of empathy for her to even consider sleeping with the MM in the first place, knowing he has a wife (and children).

[imperfectangel]

I can't speak for all but I don't lack empathy at all.

 

I actually think too many ow have too much empathy. After all most mm slate their wives etc to make ow feel sorry for them.

[elaine567]

I can't speak for all but I don't lack empathy at all.

 

I actually think too many ow have too much empathy. After all most mm slate their wives etc to make ow feel sorry for them.

 

Is that really about true empathy, or is it just a way to justify what they want to do?

"The poor, poor man, I just had to sleep with him - btw he is pretty hot too..."

[imperfectangel]

I wouldn't describe my mm as hot And things usually develop before sex. At least for me.

 

I actually think mm is the one lacking empathy. He is the one risking his kids home life and losing his wife and stringing the ow on all at the same time.

[elaine567]

I actually think mm is the one lacking empathy. He is the one risking his kids home life and losing his wife and stringing the ow on all at the same time.

 

Is it not possible that both lack empathy? No-one says it has to be only one of the affair partners.

 

Is it even possible to participate in an affair, if you* have the ability to step into another's shoes and think about how your behaviour can affect others?

 

*generic you

[Cloudcuckoo]

This argument cycles round again and again...

 

I agree with elaine, both participants in an affair, the married man/woman and the concubine are equally responsible for treacherous, clandestine behaviour. Does that mean either is displaying psychopathic elements in their personalities? Who really knows. Sociopath and psychopath diagnosis seems to have inherited an expanding umbrella of personality criteria to attempt an explanation for some behavioural patterns.

 

Like it or not, the ONLY one (except in rare peculiar circumstances) who isn't responsible for treachery is the unwilling participant in an open marriage without her/his consent, and before that starts the marital responsibilities argument, there is NO excuse for stepping out of a marriage to resolve those issues. EVER.

[grassisorisntgreener]

I have mixed feelings on this.

 

As a wife, if my husband cheated, I wouldn't think the OW owed it to me not to sleep with him. Unless she was a close friend, I have this mentality that if it wasn't her, it would just be someone else.

 

But on the other hand, I was the WS and my AP was actually a decent person I feel I tainted and he would have never pursued an affair, it was totally on me.

 

So, there is no one way about it.

 

And I also think that MOST people in affairs feel guilty. Not enough to stop, but it's always there below the surface.

[dreamingoftigers]

I have mixed feelings on this.

 

As a wife, if my husband cheated, I wouldn't think the OW owed it to me not to sleep with him. Unless she was a close friend, I have this mentality that if it wasn't her, it would just be someone else.

 

But on the other hand, I was the WS and my AP was actually a decent person I feel I tainted and he would have never pursued an affair, it was totally on me.

 

So, there is no one way about it.

 

And I also think that MOST people in affairs feel guilty. Not enough to stop, but it's always there below the surface.

 

I think both are messed up in some way.

 

I also think the level of entitlement defines the odds of sociopathy.

 

If MM is totally "entitled" to use women, including his wife, like toilet paper.....then yeah, either Narcissism or Sociopathy.

 

If MM is more the ACTUAL "haven't had sex in five years, met someone at work and when she brushed by me I felt Alice but oh-gosh-what-have-I-done-to-my-wife type, then you probably have someone that ISN'T a sociopath.

[DKT3]

Luckily for us all so few people in the world are truly sociopaths, I agree with greener the real issue is that most cheaters are simply unbelievable selfish and have a high sense of entitlement this allows them to suppress guilt and rationalize their behavio. "I deserve to be happy above all or anyone else"

 

My wife once told me that during the beginning stages of her affair it was both as happy and sad as she had ever been. That the range of emotions made her feel more alive then ever before. WTF?

[OneLov]

This argument cycles round again and again...

 

Wouldn't it be refreshing if every thread concerning infidelity didn't turn into "who's more at fault/to blame?" We could actually discuss the issues without turning the BSs, WSs, and OW/M into caricatures.

 

Why are MM split into two groups? There's different kinds of MM that come in every shape and size. They aren't players. Rule No. 1 in the Player Handbook is to never make yourself vulnerable. MM are incredibly vulnerable and their situation is always precarious. They're taking way too much of a risk. They're too many single woman to love then leave.

 

Maybe we give MM the power because it takes away our own power in the making the choice to "play the game?" I think most MM aren't calculated or without emotion. They're just people who got in way over their head and have no idea what the hell they're doing. They're making it up as they go along. I think we like to put them at the helm, so we don't have to take responsibility for steering the ship into the rocky shoals.

[heartwhole]

Those of who aren't mental health professionals can't diagnose people obviously, but my theory on this is that we all fall somewhere on the empathy spectrum. From what I've read, yes, there are people lacking in conscience and empathy, but there are certainly more people having affairs than there are sociopaths.

 

But I don't know that empathy is the key to all infidelity because we are less likely to be deterred by the knowledge we are causing others pain if we believe we are justified in our choices. Like I'm sure that my failure to kick out my WH and send him running to the OW caused her pain, but the situation was so messed up and my position so much more justified than hers that I found the idea of her pain less than compelling. Knowing we will cause someone else pain is no deterrent if we believe the pain is their own fault.

 

Our MC said my husband is low on empathy and self-absorbed, which shocked me at the time. Because he's not low on empathy in every situation in life or in all ways regarding me. He was low on empathy when it came to my chronic illness, partly because I blamed myself for being sick and he did by extension too. But if I had suffered a car accident or the like, I am sure his empathy would have been very high. The self-absorption is manifested in things like redirecting conversations back to himself, even when he asked me a question about myself to begin with. Luckily, he is willing to work on this and I gently say, "Hey, you just asked me about my day and then interrupted me to talk about yourself," and he looks sheepish, and the next day he does a better job, and so on and so forth.

 

When it comes to the OW, it was initially some kind of empathy that bonded them, a knight in shining armor dynamic. She was the damsel in distress who had been done ill by various ex-boyfriends. I don't doubt that he genuinely felt for her and had feelings for her, but then by the third week of no contact he was glibly exclaiming, "I thought this would be harder! I don't miss her as much as I thought I would!" (There's the self-absorption again.) On DD when he was trying to pirouette out of my questions without directly lying, he finally thought, "This is crazy. I don't even know OW that well," so he stopped trying to protect the relationship and admitted to it (though he still let me find out it was a PA all on my own). So sometimes he would see and think clearly, and sometimes not.

 

Just like empathy, I think we tune out our guilt when we want to. Whether we will tune out empathy or guilt depends upon how healthy we are emotionally IMO. People who have not developed solid coping mechanisms and self-esteem will pick and choose when to listen to their conscience and will lash out and blame others as a self-defense mechanism. I doubt that most people in affairs truly lack empathy or a conscience, but they haven't moved past the "me first" stage of emotional development.

 

It's been 18 months since DD and my WH was just telling me that in IC he was talking about remorse. He said, "I feel so much more remorse than I did a year ago. Of course I felt remorse then, but now I feel such incredible sadness when something reminds me of a time during the affair, just like you say you do." I believe that's true. A year ago he was still haughty and indignant and saying, "Are you really saying this isn't your fault at all?" when I would bring up the affair. He still had those defenses in place because he didn't have the emotional maturity to deal with his guilt and complicity. He had a lot of self-pity and would come home blue and whining if any little thing went wrong at work. Now he has a more mature perspective and spends a lot of time expressing his gratitude for his life and focusing on what's important. I don't know if this is related, but he has spent a lot of energy setting up a financial plan in case anything ever happens to him since with my chronic illness I would struggle to work full time. He's generally spending a lot more time "adulting" and a lot less time thinking about himself.

 

I get the impression that a lot of single OW do indeed feel a lot of guilt, at least the ones who stick around here. They endure all the comments from BW and general know-it-alls because they feel it's their penance. The WW who post generally seem to feel less guilt, maybe because they feel that both affair partners being married makes it equal or something, and they have to do a lot more compartmentalizing and justifying when they have their own BS at home. My sense of many single OW who enter affairs is that their desire for the ego boost of the affair and the possibility of "happily ever after" outweighs their guilt and compunction when hormones are firing and the MM is pulling out all the stops, but the guilt and compunction never go away entirely and get stronger as the relationship becomes more stressful.

 

I've been married over a decade and I can certainly understand how there are times when one's spouse is more irritating than anything, and it's easy to dismiss their feelings. Sure. To me the greatest deterrent to infidelity is desiring good things for myself. A relationship with someone willing to commit infidelity screams "Bad News!" to me, no matter what my personal circumstances are. I don't think we need empathy to realize it's a bad choice. We just need common sense.

Edited October 11, 2016 by heartwhole

[dreamingoftigers]

Luckily for us all so few people in the world are truly sociopaths, I agree with greener the real issue is that most cheaters are simply unbelievable selfish and have a high sense of entitlement this allows them to suppress guilt and rationalize their behavio. "I deserve to be happy above all or anyone else"

 

My wife once told me that during the beginning stages of her affair it was both as happy and sad as she had ever been. That the range of emotions made her feel more alive then ever before. WTF?

 

I think it's more common than most people suspect.

 

I think most people think it's around 1-1000 to 1-10000

But it's around 1-25 to 1-100.

 

That can be 4% of the population. Quite a few. One in the average classroom.

[gettingstronger]

Sociopaths-probably not- extremely selfish-you bet

 

On some level my husband felt guilt, but obviously not enough to stop-it says something very bad about his mind-set at that time- I think the ability to compartmentalize and having having a "partner in crime" leads them to believe its not so bad-

 

Its interesting, while he was in his affair, a friend got caught and it tore his family apart- I said "you had us on the same path, yet you didn't stop-why?"

He believed he was different, what he was doing wasn't as bad-it was on the road, he only had to lie by omission, he was out of town anyway so he wasn't missing anything additional and on and on.... of course after dday he realized that was just lies he told himself, had someone that agreed with him on it, etc..

 

Does that make him a sociopath-probably not- a selfish, manipulative jerk-you bet! Are manipulation and selfishness traits of a sociopath-of course but a full blown sociopath-I don't think many in affairs are that-

[wmacbride]

But if mr jones didn't drop his trousers then another woman wouldn't have that opportunity.

 

I'm not blameless no but I'll never understand women that flat out blame the other woman. No affair can happen if the mr isn't willing

 

following the logic that "it's excusable because everyone wants a bit of happiness" then why are so many mm/mw called scum ( or worse) by ow/om when the affair ends and they don't decide that a relationship with the ow/om is what they want? All fo a sudden, he or she becomes a two faced, lying future faker...

 

why was he/she not one when he or she was lying to their bs?

 

I guess only some lies count.

 

no mw/mm can seduce an ow/om who doesn't allow it, and the same is true for mm/mw- they can't seduced unless they allow it.

 

does this make either side in an affair a sociopath , callous cold and unfeeling? likely not,though some mm/mw or ow/om probably are, just as in any subgroup in a population.

 

there are all sorts of reasons an affair can get started, one being a sociopath doesn't have to be a factor.

Edited October 11, 2016 by wmacbride

[imperfectangel]

I can't speak for any other ow but I've never called my mm scum or anything of the sort

[wmacbride]

I can't speak for any other ow but I've never called my mm scum or anything of the sort

 

Not referring to you specifically, but it certainly has happened. all one needs to do is look at the list of language that is disallowed on this forum to see some examples...

 

I don't think all mm/mw or om/ow are sociopaths. I've heard that idea bounced around before though, but I never really understood why someone would think that. I do think some are, but then again, there's likely some bs who are sociopaths too.