The "Treat me better" guy - two extreme attitudes

[redbaron007]

So the Trump tapes have opened up a Pandora's box of claims that The Donald's been touching, kissing, groping, disparaging women, for decades (a 74 yo woman recalled a 1979 incident). So he's basically a jock that never grew up. That's one extreme...

 

Then there's young Shawn Mendes with his cringeworthy song "Treat me better" where he pleads, begs, grovels, wails to the woman he desires that he is so much better than the guy she is with and he would do just about anything if only she would throw some love his way...this guy is the sad shmuck who also never grew up...that's the other extreme.

 

So for us guys presently in the "In Search Of.." category, we try to walk the line between "grab em by the p***y" Donald (actual quote) and "p***y on the pedestal" Shawn (not an actual quote). How does it relate directly to me? Sometimes the line is pretty thin. A hand that lingers around her waist or a hug that lasts a second or two longer could be considered "creepy" and put us in Donald territory but if we respect her personal space and don't touch her at all, we end up being a TreatMeBetter shmuck and get a one-way ticket to the dreaded Friend Zone.

 

The two anecdotes are extremes, but personally I think we men just have to accept that, if one approaches enough women, some women are bound to label us "creepy", however untrue/unfair it may be. I'm talking about ordinary dudes like me, mind you, not the Donald. What do you kind folks think?

[amaysngrace]

I think gestures are only considered creepy if they aren't welcomed.

[redbaron007]

I think gestures are only considered creepy if they aren't welcomed.

 

I agree...but we cannot anticipate whether our gestures will be welcomed or not...we just have to tentatively make small gestures, and calibrate...instead of not making any moves at all...and I'm talking in a non-alcoholic environment by the way, say, in a park.

[BlueIris]

Until you're dating, just don’t do anything to women that you wouldn’t do to men. You can charm and flirt without kissing and touching to get someone interested. Once you’re actually dating, kissing and touching comes organically.

[amaysngrace]

I agree...but we cannot anticipate whether our gestures will be welcomed or not...we just have to tentatively make small gestures, and calibrate...instead of not making any moves at all...and I'm talking in a non-alcoholic environment by the way, say, in a park.

 

You need to be able to read people pretty well and if you aren't able to do that, it's always okay to say "I really want to kiss you right now" and gauge her response from there.

 

But you should pick up on things like if she wants to touch you causally or moves in closer to you or does she distance herself from you or seem disinterested? There are subtle cues but it never hurts to get permission for a hug or kiss if you're unsure.

[Blanco]

Sexually assaulting someone or boasting that your status would make sexually assaulting someone a penalty-free action for you isn't really comparable to leaving your hand on someone's waist a moment too long.

 

I agree that when it comes to some playful physical touching, it can be very much a touch and go situation (no pun intended), depending on the recipient's interest.

 

I just think the Donald example doesn't really fit in this discussion, since what he was describing what would be an actual crime and not simply "creepy."

[Blanco]

You need to be able to read people pretty well and if you aren't able to do that, it's always okay to say "I really want to kiss you right now" and gauge her response from there.

 

But you should pick up on things like if she wants to touch you causally or moves in closer to you or does she distance herself from you or seem disinterested? There are subtle cues but it never hurts to get permission for a hug or kiss if you're unsure.

 

Agreed.

 

I have, to a fault sometimes, always erred on the side of caution. If you're good at reading people; like sincerely good at reading people and not simply projecting how you want them to be thinking/feeling, you'll usually do OK when you progress to any sort of playful contact.

[redbaron007]

Until you're dating, just don’t do anything to women that you wouldn’t do to men. You can charm and flirt without kissing and touching to get someone interested. Once you’re actually dating, kissing and touching comes organically.

 

This would be true in Victorian times, not today. Not touching a woman at all is a sure-shot way of being Friend Zoned for life. I've been there way too many times...

[redbaron007]

You need to be able to read people pretty well and if you aren't able to do that, it's always okay to say "I really want to kiss you right now" and gauge her response from there.

 

I really like this suggestion. It is bold and honest, and at the same time, respectful.

 

But you should pick up on things like if she wants to touch you causally or moves in closer to you or does she distance herself from you or seem disinterested? There are subtle cues but it never hurts to get permission for a hug or kiss if you're unsure.

 

The ones who move in closer (the "yes" category) and the ones who seem disinterested (the "no" category) are easy to read. The difficult ones are the ones who exhibit neither of these cues (the "maybe" category). I agree the permission suggestion is a good option in this case.

[Moves Like Jagger]

You need to be able to read people pretty well and if you aren't able to do that, it's always okay to say "I really want to kiss you right now" and gauge her response from there.

 

There are subtle cues but it never hurts to get permission for a hug or kiss if you're unsure.

 

Do you know any guys that ask women for permission to hug or kiss them? In my entire life, I never heard a guy ask permission to hug or kiss a woman. I think it's kind of strange to ask a woman if I can hug her. Most guys are able to tell by a woman's body language whether she is interested in that way or not.

 

To the guys: Don't worry about getting accused of sexual harassment. Instead, just worry about improving yourself. There's a plenty of advice on body language and flirting that will naturally improve your interactions with women without getting you in trouble. Worrying about getting in trouble for sexual harassment will only put negative thoughts in your heads. Instead, focus on understanding basic social cues and respecting people's boundaries.

 

Go to any bar and nightclub and you can see guys touching and kissing woman that they aren't already dating. These guys have an intuitive sense whether the girls will welcome touching or not by understanding basic social cues.

[LookAtThisPOst]

Do you know any guys that ask women for permission to hug or kiss them? In my entire life, I never heard a guy ask permission to hug or kiss a woman. I think it's kind of strange to ask a woman if I can hug her. Most guys are able to tell by a woman's body language whether she is interested in that way or not.

 

To the guys: Don't worry about getting accused of sexual harassment. Instead, just worry about improving yourself. There's a plenty of advice on body language and flirting that will naturally improve your interactions with women without getting you in trouble. Worrying about getting in trouble for sexual harassment will only put negative thoughts in your heads. Instead, focus on understanding basic social cues and respecting people's boundaries.

 

Go to any bar and nightclub and you can see guys touching and kissing woman that they aren't already dating. These guys have an intuitive sense whether the girls will welcome touching or not by understanding basic social cues.

 

Yeah, there's a consensus on these boards on asking to kiss or hug a woman before you do it is an immediate turn off for women. They say you should just go for it, and if she kisses you back...then you have your answer, if not, you have your answer.

[JuneJulySeptember]

So the Trump tapes have opened up a Pandora's box of claims that The Donald's been touching, kissing, groping, disparaging women, for decades (a 74 yo woman recalled a 1979 incident). So he's basically a jock that never grew up. That's one extreme...

 

Then there's young Shawn Mendes with his cringeworthy song "Treat me better" where he pleads, begs, grovels, wails to the woman he desires that he is so much better than the guy she is with and he would do just about anything if only she would throw some love his way...this guy is the sad shmuck who also never grew up...that's the other extreme.

 

So for us guys presently in the "In Search Of.." category, we try to walk the line between "grab em by the p***y" Donald (actual quote) and "p***y on the pedestal" Shawn (not an actual quote). How does it relate directly to me? Sometimes the line is pretty thin. A hand that lingers around her waist or a hug that lasts a second or two longer could be considered "creepy" and put us in Donald territory but if we respect her personal space and don't touch her at all, we end up being a TreatMeBetter shmuck and get a one-way ticket to the dreaded Friend Zone.

 

The two anecdotes are extremes, but personally I think we men just have to accept that, if one approaches enough women, some women are bound to label us "creepy", however untrue/unfair it may be. I'm talking about ordinary dudes like me, mind you, not the Donald. What do you kind folks think?

 

 

 

I believe that 80% of the time I have gotten rejected by a woman, it is because of my looks. Maybe 18% of the time, if I had a completely different personality or set of accomplishments, the results might have been different, and maybe 2% of the time it's because of something I did/said wrong that I could have done differently.

 

YMMV, but I believe by the time we reach our 20s, our personalities are highly ingrained. For instance, I work with people who range from loud and boisterous to only speak when spoken to, extremely mild mannered. And I can tell they've been like that their whole lives.

 

In other words, I really don't think it makes a difference what you do. And if it does, why would you want to be with a person who is so petty that you are always walking a glass line between being a friend and being a lover?

Edited October 14, 2016 by JuneJulySeptember

[Miss Peach]

This would be true in Victorian times, not today. Not touching a woman at all is a sure-shot way of being Friend Zoned for life. I've been there way too many times...

 

The way I read the quoted comment was that don't touch until she's willing to go on a date with you.

 

Do you know any guys that ask women for permission to hug or kiss them? I

 

Yes it happens. I tend to notice it more with inexperienced guys but it happens. I feel it's a mood killer and prefer a guy to just kiss me if I am standing there and look receptive to it. On the other hand, I've had guys surprise kiss me out of no where and then get their feeling hurt when they caught me by surprise.

 

If I want a guy to kiss me and he doesn't by the end of the date. I usually will face a guy looking at him waiting. Maybe look into his eyes if he tried to hug me. Usually men will plant one if they are interested after that - at least a peck.

 

I believe that 80% of the time I have gotten rejected by a woman, it is because of my looks. Maybe 18% of the time, if I had a completely different personality or set of accomplishments, the results might have been different, and maybe 2% of the time it's because of something I did/said wrong that I could have done differently.

 

YMMV, but I believe by the time we reach our 20s, our personalities are highly ingrained. For instance, I work with people who range from loud and boisterous to only speak when spoken to, extremely mild mannered. And I can tell they've been like that their whole lives.

 

In other words, I really don't think it makes a difference what you do. And if it does, why would you want to be with a person who is so petty that you are always walking a glass line between being a friend and being a lover?

 

I don't agree with the first part of this. IRL women will raise or lower a man's perceived attractiveness by how she feels around him. The only time I really care about looks is if I'm just looking for fun because in that case I know I can get a hotter guy. I've I'm looking for the guy who will date me, fix my car, buy me soup when I'm sick, etc. then I need a certain level in looks but will be less picky.

 

The second part I do agree with. That's why I look at it as it will match or not match. You can't control the outcome of that. All you can do is put in effort and hope the other person does the same (and leave if they don't).

[SammySammy]

It's possible for a man to have a healthy respect for women and a healthy respect for himself.

 

It takes the same amount of effort as it takes to be a douchebag or a doormat. It's simply a difference in attitude - how we think about ourselves and others.

[JewelD]

That 'friend zone" guy almost never realizes he never had a shot to begin with. No woman will put a man she truly wants in the friendzone (unless she's taken). You don't have to put a hand on her waist or try to kiss her to ensure that you don't end up in the friendzone. If anything, that's a sure way to possibly piss her off and finally understand that you were already in the friend zone before you even tried.

 

Women don't ask permission to kiss or hug men because we can usually tell if a guy is into it or not. Too many men have no understanding of body language or signals from women. If she accepts a dance, somehow that translates to "you can put your hands on her ass". If she allows you to buy her a drink, this means she wants to get into some heavy petting before the end of the night.

 

You can give these kind of men and inch and they'll try to take several miles. If you haven't had any verbal confirmation, don't just dive in head first and shove your tongue down her throat. Drape an arm around her chair (assuming you've gotten to the actual date part). If she stiffens or looks uncomfortable, put your hand back wherever it was.

 

It's really not that complicated. and if you're hesitant because you can't draw the line between being affectionate with a willing partner and grabbing a woman by the vagina, you probably shouldn't be dating at all.

[normal person]

If she likes you, she'll accept a lot of things within reason. If she doesn't like you, she won't.

 

Every circumstance is different, you need to gauge them all appropriately. If there are two dogs, one is a pit bull and it's growling at you, ears pointed back, and the other is just a retriever puppy who runs up to you and licks your hand, which one would you pet? Just apply the same context clues and logic to these situations. It's easy to tell who's receptive and who's not.

 

Personally I always wait until I get some kind of indication of interest before I try anything remotely forward. If you play it cool as the one whose attention should be earned rather than the person who pours out attention onto a woman, you'll be surprised how quickly this whole invisible boundary deteriorates, and how quick women might be to try and determine yours. Read the context clues, if a woman enters your personal space, makes an effort to talk to you, has a flirty vibe, she's probably not going to care if you put your hand on her waist; she might like it. I can think of experiences out at bars/parties where I was talking to women who, after some conversation, definitely wanted to be touched. Conversely, if you did the same thing to a woman who seems kind of ambivalent about you, she might get security to throw you out.

 

It's ultimately dependent on whether or not she likes you or not and your ability to determine that.

[JuneJulySeptember]

I don't agree with the first part of this. IRL women will raise or lower a man's perceived attractiveness by how she feels around him. The only time I really care about looks is if I'm just looking for fun because in that case I know I can get a hotter guy. I've I'm looking for the guy who will date me, fix my car, buy me soup when I'm sick, etc. then I need a certain level in looks but will be less picky.

 

The second part I do agree with. That's why I look at it as it will match or not match. You can't control the outcome of that. All you can do is put in effort and hope the other person does the same (and leave if they don't).

 

80% is my rate. If you're white, tall, and are really good looking, that goes up. Some guys might have a rate as low as 20% or even lower.

 

But my point was more this...

 

That 'friend zone" guy almost never realizes he never had a shot to begin with. No woman will put a man she truly wants in the friendzone (unless she's taken).

 

If a woman wants a man (or is willing to give him a chance), she will let the little things slide.

 

Guys tend to fabricate the idea that if they had only done one little thing different, they could be married to a woman instead of firmly in the friendzone. That is a fallacy.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Every circumstance is different, you need to gauge them all appropriately. If there are two dogs, one is a pit bull and it's growling at you, ears pointed back, and the other is just a retriever puppy who runs up to you and licks your hand, which one would you pet? Just apply the same context clues and logic to these situations. It's easy to tell who's receptive and who's not.

 

It's not that easy for a lot of guys. Some guys get no signs of interest almost their whole lives.

 

So how does a guy like that end up with a girlfriend? You spend time with a woman, give her a little bit of time and then determine either through action or just asking whether she is interested or you are in the friendzone (and probably have always been). The key is on your end, not to invest before you get that answer. Do that, and you're golden/

[Mysterio]

My take on being with a woman physically is to take it slow and causal. I would go from hand holding to kissing and leave the french kissing until later.

 

As long as a woman knows its a date. By date two, it should be expected that physical affection will be an occuring thing.

[insert_name]

I used to be the kind of guy who would stand back and hope the girl makes it plain that she is interested, but it never really did me any favours and I would be left with 'what ifs' by the end of the night.

 

Recently I've decided that it is better to be called a creep that patronised as a 'nice guy' in the friend zeon so if I am talking to a girl in a bar or wherever and we are getting on well I will lean in to talk to her and try putting my arm round her waist and see how it goes from there. I don't waste any time doing this either. There is obviously an element of social cue reading but also an element of risk taking too as with the sort of cues women give out you can never be too sure of yourself and end up spending all night over thinking it. Hence why I tend to move quickly. I just rely on being confident in what I am doing and having the conviction to do it whole heartedly, ie not put a limp and timid arm round her waist like I will be terrified of her reaction. It has actually worked out pretty well so far, with girls who I imagine would have just walked off out of boredom if they had been talking to me in my passive days.

 

So yeah, there are no easy answers, you just have to suck it up and take the risk that she won't take offence. In my experience you won't get a great girl by being passive about it- well not unless you are very lucky anyway!

Edited October 17, 2016 by insert_name

[Zapbasket]

I think the trick is to lead with an awareness of dynamics around you, rather than with what YOU want.

 

Say you're out in a group and you think this one woman is super hot. She is friendly to you but then she is being friendly to everyone. You want to make a move. You want to go in for the kiss and how she responds will tell you whether or not she's keen to maybe do more with you, later, if the two of you can get away by yourselves.

 

Instead of just blindly following your urge to engage her sexually, step back and take a read of the situation. What do you know about her? Did she mention, offhand, that she'd been hurt a lot by guys in the past, for example? And what kind of group are you with? What are the dynamics / protocols of the group (e.g., is this work, school, her brother is in the group or her ex-boyfriend, etc.)? Also, how has she responded to you so far? Ok, friendly, yes...but did her eyes kind-of linger over you at all, or did she touch your arm or lean in to you? Read her body language.

 

There's no ubiquitous answer to how to proceed in consideration of these sorts of dynamics; that's what you have to suss out and of course you STILL run the risk of being seen as "creepy." I'll give you an example of what just happened to me that I think might help:

 

So I'm in this school program for professionals and we have groups of six of us that work under one advisor. Our group of six just got together for our first social outing; we've only met two other times and so we're just getting to know each other. There are two men, four women. We've just finished a great dinner and as we're leaving the restaurant, I suggest we go to a bar next door for another drink. One of the guys and one other woman joined me and the rest went home.

 

The three of us are sitting at the bar, just talking and laughing and having a good time. I leave to use the restroom, and (the woman told me this the next day), the guy asked her please to go hang out in the restroom when I return so that he can kiss me. She refuses (smart woman), and so I make it through the night without him trying to kiss me. I'm glad because I am not interested in him that way at all.

 

Where I think he made a mistake: First of all, the purpose of the evening was for our group of professionals to get together as a group. I was not out one on one with this guy; we had another woman with us. It was really rude of him to ask her to twiddle her thumbs in the toilet so that he could kiss me--we were all out TOGETHER. Second of all, he presumed that I was interested in any form of romantic tryst with anyone in this program. Our purpose is to accomplish this professional goal. Now, I could very well be interested in a tryst, but it's a bit presumptuous for him to assume that given the purpose of this night together, and the seriousness of the program we are in. In my opinion he should have held back until he got to know me a little more, and then he could have asked me out on a date, and then I could have turned him down and not have had to divert his sexual advance.

 

I don't know that he's an out-and-out "creep," per se, but what he did was creepy only in that it was pretty "high-school" of him to ask our colleague to leave for the bathroom and he should have read the situation better and been more considerate of her as well as me. Because at the end of the day, we all still have to function as professional liaisons.

 

Women call dudes "creepy" because some men come across like all they want to do is stick their d*ck in it and they're not paying attention to all the clues telling him that his horniness is not the main event of the evening. Be self-aware, and better yet, be aware of the context around you before trying to get some. Be considerate at all costs; we're not objects and no, Trump or any man who thinks like he does, we don't exist for your sexual gratification.