How are we different than MM?

[Chica80]

So I've been thinking a lot lately....

We constantly here on LS complain about MM how they only want OW for sex. How MM will throw OW under the bus. They lie they future fake they are cake eaters.....on and on.

 

But really are we different? (I'm using MM because I am OW)

 

When I started A I was married.

I can sit here and say oh he tricked me he just wanted me for sex....he used me.

 

But ultimately wasn't I using him as well? I was getting/ do get something out of it. Maybe sex wasn't my motivation but nevertheless I got something from him too.

 

So many times I read how he oh he's just a liar, selfish he never cared about me or loved me. But wait were you thinking that when you were in the middle of the A? So essentially aren't we also "throwing MM under the bus" albeit emotionally?

 

Just some thoughts....

[Cyra]

So I've been thinking a lot lately....

We constantly here on LS complain about MM how they only want OW for sex. How MM will throw OW under the bus. They lie they future fake they are cake eaters.....on and on.

 

But really are we different? (I'm using MM because I am OW)

 

When I started A I was married.

I can sit here and say oh he tricked me he just wanted me for sex....he used me.

 

But ultimately wasn't I using him as well? I was getting/ do get something out of it. Maybe sex wasn't my motivation but nevertheless I got something from him too.

 

So many times I read how he oh he's just a liar, selfish he never cared about me or loved me. But wait were you thinking that when you were in the middle of the A? So essentially aren't we also "throwing MM under the bus" albeit emotionally?

 

Just some thoughts....

 

I was thinking those thoughts (he does not really love me, does not care about me) occasionally throughout the affair, whenever the red flags appeared and I chose to conveniently ignore them.

 

In my case it is not the same, because it was very clear to me that for example, if I got caught I would never have thrown him under the bus, and similarly if he got caught and kicked out, then I would have been with him. (It sounds ridiculous now but that was my thinking at the time).

 

I didnt lie to him and everything I said about our future was true and I would have followed through on every word. I was not happy with having the best of both worlds, because I did not like one of those worlds and would have left it to be with him if he wanted.

 

Also consider this, something I was thinking about.

In affairs, it is more often than not that the woman falls for the man (regardless of who is married etc) and wants more, eg. a life together. She is more often than not unsatisfied with being just a 'bit on the side' etc.

Yet in the case of the men, it is most often the opposite. Even if it is MW and single OM. They are quite happy with just being 'used' for sex and entertainment. They dont necessarily fall in love and want more.

 

Why do you think that is? It is really perplexing me atm.

[elaine567]

Yet in the case of the men, it is most often the opposite. Even if it is MW and single OM. They are quite happy with just being 'used' for sex and entertainment. They dont necessarily fall in love and want more.

 

Why do you think that is? It is really perplexing me atm.

 

Because those men are NOT looking for a "relationship", they are looking for some sex and fun and/or some extra emotional support, they do not want a relationship, because either they already have an adequate one with their wife at home or they are people who do not really NEED a relationship.They want to keep it all superficial their end, but at the same time get their needs met. That is often where the lying comes in.

 

I think some men see the OW as providing a service in the same way a hairdresser does.

I like my hairdresser she is good at her job, she is interesting and she is fun and I know her pretty well, but although I would be sad if she moved away, I would not be heartbroken, I would just find another hairdresser.

I think that is exactly how some MM view the OW.

[jenkins95]

Great idea for a thread (((sunshine)))). How are you by the way?

 

I think that anyone going into a secret relationship with someone else knowing that one or both partners is already in a relationship is, by default, a 'bad guy', regardless of the state of one's own relationship or perceived state of the other party's relationship or marriage.

 

I think that one of the key differences between men and women in an affair is that the MM typically wants just that - an affair..... Fun, love, cuddles, sex, laughs, escapism. He also wants to keep the stability and status of his home life. I think, at least at first, the idea of actually leaving his wife didn't even enter his head - it didn't enter mine, i was too busy just having fun and leading a double life.

 

One point that I want to make on this is that I didn't think I was deceiving the OW at all in this. I have learned a lot about the differences between men and women on LS. Before that, I simply assumed that she wanted the same...... Fun and escapism from the mundane norms life while at the same time keeping her primary R. Indeed at first, I think she genuinely did want this and she went to great lengths to cover up what we were doing. But I think women find it harder than men to compartmentalise..... And without my realising it at the time, she soon wanted more.

 

That's not to say MM don't fall in love too and start to imagine a future with the OW - I certainly did. I thought she was amazing. If we'd both been single I've no doubt we would have built a future. But this process happens more slowly in men, and a part of me, despite these intense feelings, kept grounded in the reality that however amazing this woman was, I was not leaving - unless I was forced out. I made a decision, probably at a subconscious level, that I could fall as hard as i wanted and enjoy the love and sheer pleasure...... But that it would remain a fantasy. Almost like a living dream.... But that ultimately it would always be trumped by 'reality' when the day came..... And the day always does eventually come. Having said that, I got so deep in the fog that I did genuinely consider ending the marriage at one point.

 

I also think that post d-day men can be more cowardly and also more coldly logical than women. They get scared and they fall back on logic. They don't dare make that leap, even if they are in love, and they resort head versus heart mentality and follow what they 'should' do. Often with women, the heart wins. When a woman is truly in love she would do almost anything, regardless of logic or consequences or what everyone is telling her she should do.

 

A furious heartbroken BS can also change a MM almost instantly on d-day. It happened to me and we read about it a lot. Realisation hits you hard and you realise that the woman you made vows to still loves you and you've just turned her life upside down. I went into disclosure having no clue what the result would be...... But when I saw her collapse physically in pain, I knew immediately that, if she didn't throw me out, I would be staying.

 

There is also a sense of the MM as a 'little boy' who must do what he's told. When the bs takes charge and let's him have the full force of her fury, it can almost be a little bit like a mother-son dynamic for a little while - 'i can't leave because says I can't leave'. 'i must stop talking to you you because she says I must stop talking to you'. 'i must do my homework because she says I must do my homework'. You get the idea!

Edited October 15, 2016 by jenkins95

[BluesPower]

Cyra has a good point.

 

I was quite happy to be used for sex by my OWs.

 

The problem comes when the MM lies to the OW. It is not that they don't have feelings for the OW, but for most men just don't fall in love the way that OW seem to fall in love.

 

Men in general don't see sex the same way that women do.

 

I know that I did not. In my case I was straight with them that it was about sex. I really liked a lot of them and we were great friends, but I was never in love.

 

This is also the reason that the MM can walk away easier than the OW can in an affair

[Cyra]

Having said that, I got so deep in the fog that I did genuinely consider ending the marriage at one point.

 

You call it a fog, as if it was some sort of delusional thinking. Were you not having those thoughts because you loved the OW?

 

So did you just stay with your wife because she was upset and you did not want to hurt her feelings? It sounds to me like you sacrificed your chance of happiness with someone you loved for the sake of not upsetting your wife?

 

Forgive me if I am off base, it is just that this does not compute for me. Same happened with my xMM, although he persistently claimed even after DDay that he did not love his wife but was just doing it for the kids and pressure from other family. To me its cowardice, like he martyred himself because of what other people were saying, and so he would not look like a 'bad person'.

[jenkins95]

Another big difference I noticed was in the use of 'I love you'. I think it can mean different things to men and women. We both said it all the time and we meant it. But I think for her, when I started saying that, she took it to mean, perhaps even at a subconscious level, that I loved her exclusively and that I was implying that we would be together. To me, saying those words were a simple exclamation of joy with no hidden meaning or implication. I was effectively saying......' I'm so happy in this moment and you are the cause! I'm crazy about you. Let's just celebrate it!' I didn't realise what this was probably doing to her psychologically. Again, I didn't mean to deceive, I just wanted to express my happiness. Again - another example of male/female differences come to the fore in affairs!

[Cyra]

I totally relate to that! ExMM told me he loved me ALL the time, he asked me to marry him once he was divorced, blabla. And yes exactly, I took it that it meant he was serious and wanted to be with me. In my logic, WHY ELSE would someone say things like that?

 

But in retrospect I see it is exactly as you said. He did love me in that moment. He just did not love me in the other moments when it mattered most.

[jenkins95]

You call it a fog, as if it was some sort of delusional thinking. Were you not having those thoughts because you loved the OW?

 

(((Cyra))))

Hie are you today?

 

Yes....I was in love with the OW....

 

And yes.... This was delusional thinking!

 

Being in love is not a normal state of mind. It is an evolved temporary state designed to make us go crazy for a while! Little more than a chemical reaction really. During an affair, the craziness is just ten-fold and it's just plain wrong to allow yourself to get into this state when you are married to someone else.

 

I was in the fog and thank goodness i am out of it now. I still have very genuine care for the OW and wish her well.

[Cyra]

(((Cyra))))

Hie are you today?

 

Yes....I was in love with the OW....

 

And yes.... This was delusional thinking!

 

Being in love is not a normal state of mind. It is an evolved temporary state designed to make us go crazy for a while! Little more than a chemical reaction really. During an affair, the craziness is just ten-fold and it's just plain wrong to allow yourself to get into this state when you are married to someone else.

 

I was in the fog and thank goodness i am out of it now. I still have very genuine care for the OW and wish her well.

 

I have to agree to disagree. I believe it is possible to fall in love with someone else and that person being better for us, so why not opt for a happier life with that person than staying in one that is not completely fulfilling.

Of course I know now the answer is, have a fulfilling life on your own first. I know.

But back in the day, I would have gone with xMM in an instant because I loved him. Now in my case it was delusional thinking because he was an a$$. All I am saying is that it is not always the case, as some success stories show. People get divorced all the time and start new happy lives with another person.

[elaine567]

There's No Such Thing as Everlasting Love (According to Science) - The Atlantic

 

This would support what Jenkins saw/sees as love.

Fredrickson, a leading researcher of positive emotions at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, presents scientific evidence to argue that love is not what we think it is. It is not a long-lasting, continually present emotion that sustains a marriage; it is not the yearning and passion that characterizes young love; and it is not the blood-tie of kinship.

 

 

Rather, it is what she calls a "micro-moment of positivity resonance." She means that love is a connection, characterized by a flood of positive emotions, which you share with another person—any other person—whom you happen to connect with in the course of your day. You can experience these micro-moments with your romantic partner, child, or close friend. But you can also fall in love, however momentarily, with less likely candidates, like a stranger on the street, a colleague at work, or an attendant at a grocery store. Louis Armstrong put it best in "It's a Wonderful World" when he sang, "I see friends shaking hands, sayin 'how do you do?' / They're really sayin', 'I love you.'"

 

Women in general need to get with the game here. Seems the forum is full of women disappointed in "love", but what they view as love everlasting is just a positive flood of emotions which can be turned on and turned off like a tap and frequently is.

Whilst they are immersed in the everlasting love of romantic novels, fairy stories and Hollywood, the real world tells a different story.

[Cyra]

There's No Such Thing as Everlasting Love (According to Science) - The Atlantic

 

This would support what Jenkins saw/sees as love.

 

 

Women in general need to get with the game here. Seems the forum is full of women disappointed in "love", but what they view as love everlasting is just a positive flood of emotions which can be turned on and turned off like a tap and frequently is.

Whilst they are immersed in the everlasting love of romantic novels, fairy stories and Hollywood, the real world tells a different story.

 

I like that and I think it has some truth in it.

 

We have been so brainwashed and conditioned to idealize the meaning of love. Happily ever after and all that.

 

Yes I agree it is time to reconsider.

[Cymbeline]

"So did you just stay with your wife because she was upset and you did not want to hurt her feelings? It sounds to me like you sacrificed your chance of happiness with someone you loved for the sake of not upsetting your wife?

 

Well what is happiness? It is unlikely to be found in romantic love - that doesn't last a lifetime. We are staggeringly bad at understanding what actually makes us happy over a lifetime. We confuse excitement with happiness, intensity with love.

 

 

In the end, if one's spouse is a good, kind, loving person whose company we enjoy, it is not easy to find someone who would, without question, prove a better bet over a whole lifetime.

 

add to that that if you have children, you g or adult, you are , like it or not, changing their whole experience of family, of love, commitment,of future family structure and closeness. The starter family doesn't just go away. They are always in the background of your life.

 

You also change that cohesiveness for yourself. No more full communion with the family you have built. Relationships with children are never quite the same again. You need to be very unhappy in your marriage or very very positive about the superior qualities of your AP over your spouse. Most of us arent all that...

 

Or you might be unrealistically romantic or hedonistic; callous or short termist....whatever.

 

The benefits of the social and economic structure of marriage are considerable and hard to give up. In general, It is to the economic and social benefit of the workings of society that they endure.

[Cyra]

"So did you just stay with your wife because she was upset and you did not want to hurt her feelings? It sounds to me like you sacrificed your chance of happiness with someone you loved for the sake of not upsetting your wife?

 

Well what is happiness? It is unlikely to be found in romantic love - that doesn't last a lifetime. We are staggeringly bad at understanding what actually makes us happy over a lifetime. We confuse excitement with happiness, intensity with love.

 

 

In the end, if one's spouse is a good, kind, loving person whose company we enjoy, it is not easy to find someone who would, without question, prove a better bet over a whole lifetime.

 

add to that that if you have children, you g or adult, you are , like it or not, changing their whole experience of family, of love, commitment,of future family structure and closeness. The starter family doesn't just go away. They are always in the background of your life.

 

You also change that cohesiveness for yourself. No more full communion with the family you have built. Relationships with children are never quite the same again. You need to be very unhappy in your marriage or very very positive about the superior qualities of your AP over your spouse. Most of us arent all that...

 

Or you might be unrealistically romantic or hedonistic; callous or short termist....whatever.

 

The benefits of the social and economic structure of marriage are considerable and hard to give up. In general, It is to the economic and social benefit of the workings of society that they endure.

 

I will not be so arrogant to pretend to understand. I am not married, no close family, no children, so I do not know what it is like or what it would be like if I was in that situation and having an A.

 

I suppose I was always an idealist when it came to love, I placed love above all else and would do anything for it.

 

This A has opened my eyes in that aspect and I am reevaluating those views, and many others that I previously had.

 

So despite the disappointment and the heartbreak and the pain, this was an invaluable lesson for me.

[Cymbeline]

"There is also a sense of the MM as a 'little boy' who must do what he's told. When the bs takes charge and let's him have the full force of her fury, it can almost be a little bit like a mother-son dynamic for a little while - 'i can't leave because says I can't leave'. 'i must stop talking to you you because she says I must stop talking to you'. 'i must do my homework because she says I must do my homework'. You get the idea!"

 

This is a tough one. It nearly killed our reconciliation. It played further into the mid life dynamic of the naughty teenager sneaking around behind Mummy's back with someone far younger and made me the authoritarian parent when he was already besotted by the joys of a young and seemingly carefree new partner. It makes the bs seems such a miserable old killjoy!

[Cymbeline]

"I suppose I was always an idealist when it came to love, I placed love above all else and would do anything for love"

 

So why is it you who is the idealist? ? Perhaps it is I? I think so ..I think I am the idealist and you are the romantic. .(just teasing). What do we mean by love? What about the romance of the quotidian? Of 'stirring the oatmeal'. Of commitment sustained when one doesn't really feel like it.

 

You might be interested tonread this.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201606/the-7-types-love

 

And you may not be a mother now, or married, but you can understand the stability, social and economic that marriage offers, I'm sure?

[Cyra]

And you may not be a mother now, or married, but you can understand the stability, social and economic that marriage offers, I'm sure?

 

Thank you I will have a look at that link

 

To be honest (once again the idealist/romantic speaking) I think it is wrong to be in a marriage for its economic/social benefits. That is not the reason why people should be married, it should be love, surely?

 

I would much rather stir the oatmeal with someone I loved, than someone who it was bearable to be with given economic and social benefits.

 

But yes I get you, What is love really? I thought I knew and I clearly didnt. So here I am on a new path of self-discovery, please bear with me when I seem to vent random and incoherent ideas

[Poppy47]

When I love someone, it isn't a MICROMOMENT. It is rare and not given easily.

 

Poppy.

[Cymbeline]

"To be honest (once again the idealist/romantic speaking) I think it is wrong to be in a marriage for its economic/social benefits. That is not the reason why people should be married, it should be love, surely?"

 

Marriage was created expressly for economic/ social benefit: to ensure property and land stayed within the bloodline. In days gone by, the poor didn't necessarily marry - they had nothing to protect. Marriages were often arranged and still are in some places. I have friends of other cultures with arranged marriages. ( their parents ensured they were in agreement with the choices)

They are indistinguishable from the rest of us. ( I'm in my fifties).

 

When you say it's wrong I expect you mean it isn't for you. It isnt wrong if it suits the participants and hurts no one else. Anyway, love and economic/ social benefit are not mutually exclusive. They exist together.

 

And unless the parents are actually antagonistic towards each other, rather than just rubbing along as companions and friends , it is better for children and grandchildren to belong to a stable family unit.

 

I hope you soon find love and stability in your own happy relationship with someone Cyra. I'm sure you will.

[elaine567]

"There is also a sense of the MM as a 'little boy' who must do what he's told. When the bs takes charge and let's him have the full force of her fury, it can almost be a little bit like a mother-son dynamic for a little while - 'i can't leave because says I can't leave'. 'i must stop talking to you you because she says I must stop talking to you'. 'i must do my homework because she says I must do my homework'. You get the idea!"

 

This is a tough one. It nearly killed our reconciliation. It played further into the mid life dynamic of the naughty teenager sneaking around behind Mummy's back with someone far younger and made me the authoritarian parent when he was already besotted by the joys of a young and seemingly carefree new partner. It makes the bs seems such a miserable old killjoy!

 

It is also an abdication of responsibility too and conflict avoidance, "I can't leave because I am not allowed to", "I can't talk to you as my wife would not be happy about it",

Instead of saying "This was just a bit of fun and I cannot leave as I DON'T WANT TO." or "This is over, so there is absolutely NO need to talk any more."

 

MY wife won't let me, tends to make the OW think he truly loves me but he cannot show it, due to his harridan of a wife ruling the roost. "Poor man, I can give him all the love she cannot..." and so she sticks in there hoping against hope.

Whereas if he said, "It is over, I never want to leave my wife. Good bye, have a nice life," then it would give so many OWs some sort of closure.

BUT the truth is many MM do not want final closure, they want continued sexual access in case an opportunity arises in the future, or they love the ego boost of a besotted woman wanting them, so they just keep stringing the OW along with platitudes and excuses.

[Cyra]

It is also an abdication of responsibility too and conflict avoidance, "I can't leave because I am not allowed to", "I can't talk to you as my wife would not be happy about it",

Instead of saying "This was just a bit of fun and I cannot leave as I DON'T WANT TO." or "This is over, so there is absolutely NO need to talk any more."

 

MY wife won't let me, tends to make the OW think he truly loves me but he cannot show it, due to his harridan of a wife ruling the roost. "Poor man, I can give him all the love she cannot..." and so she sticks in there hoping against hope.

 

In all fairness, what kind of woman would want such a wimp of a man who cannot stand up for himself and cannot do something because his wife doesn't allow it?

my xMM never said anything like that he just went NC but I wish he had because that would have made me feel so much better about it being over.

[Midwestmissy]

In all fairness, what kind of woman would want such a wimp of a man who cannot stand up for himself and cannot do something because his wife doesn't allow it?

my xMM never said anything like that he just went NC but I wish he had because that would have made me feel so much better about it being over.

 

They don't say it because it's true, they say it so they're not the bad guy. At home they're on their knees begging forgiveness and throwing the ow under the bus.

[Forever broken]

They don't say it because it's true, they say it so they're not the bad guy. At home they're on their knees begging forgiveness and throwing the ow under the bus.

 

I wish I could like this post a thousand more times

[Chica80]

I was thinking those thoughts (he does not really love me, does not care about me) occasionally throughout the affair, whenever the red flags appeared and I chose to conveniently ignore them.

 

In my case it is not the same, because it was very clear to me that for example, if I got caught I would never have thrown him under the bus, and similarly if he got caught and kicked out, then I would have been with him. (It sounds ridiculous now but that was my thinking at the time).

 

I didnt lie to him and everything I said about our future was true and I would have followed through on every word. I was not happy with having the best of both worlds, because I did not like one of those worlds and would have left it to be with him if he wanted.

 

Also consider this, something I was thinking about.

In affairs, it is more often than not that the woman falls for the man (regardless of who is married etc) and wants more, eg. a life together. She is more often than not unsatisfied with being just a 'bit on the side' etc.

Yet in the case of the men, it is most often the opposite. Even if it is MW and single OM. They are quite happy with just being 'used' for sex and entertainment. They dont necessarily fall in love and want more.

 

Why do you think that is? It is really perplexing me atm.

 

When I first started posting in LS. I very much thought like this. A part of me still thinks this way.

 

But I realized Men don't think this way.. even if they do love you even if they mean what they say. They just don't.

 

Some do leave yes I agree. I think its emotionally cowardly, the ones who truly do love but remember you are an unhealthy person (emotionally) and are involved with another unhealthy (emotionally) person. Why do you expect something different?

[imsosad]

I think it comes down to intent.

Take the typical MM on a typical LS thread. Happy to be cake eating, never meant to leave his wife, looking for an adrenaline rush on the side,as long as it doesnt rock his boat, happy with the situation,feels he has the best of both worlds. Enters the affair with the intention of having some extramarital thrill while keeping his family life in tact.

Typical OW, single or married, falls in love. Many times enters the affair thinking she accidentally found the love of her life. Is in turmoil, upset, confused and looking for a full time realtionship. Oftem MOW are willing to disrupt their marriages for the sake of the AP. Very few OW intend on having a long term affair,even if some do.

I suspect many,if not most, of the typical MM that are discussed on threads here are repeat offenders. I think very few M/OW carry out multiple affairs.

It does not apply to everyone,naturally, but bottom line is the mm want affairs while the ow want relatinships.

Edited October 15, 2016 by imsosad