How are we different than MM?

[Quiet Storm]

I get what you are saying but still I do not understand how someone could value those things more than love? Is it a man thing? Can someone explain it to me, I am truly perplexed but open to new insight.

 

People are different. Someone else could easily say, why does Cyra value a feeling more than family or commitment?

 

We all place different values on things. I think in general, women tend to be more driven by their feelings. This doesn't mean men aren't emotional. Men feel deeply, but manage their feelings differently.

 

I've noticed a lot of men don't think feelings should prompt action. Most MM don't think, "I love OW, therefore I should leave my wife" . They just think "I love OW." It doesn't go beyond that.

 

Women are more likely to see the existence of love as part of a progression, a step towards the next level. Love means that something should happen.

 

I've noticed men compartmentalize easier. This is part of the reason why love is often more important to women. Love, and other emotions, feel bigger when you can't push them out of your mind. It makes sense that someone who can easily turn their focus off of love and emotions, and on to other things, wouldn't value love as much. Thoughts of love and emotions don't monopolize their brain space.

 

Many guys will feel emotions, and then move on with their day, not being swayed by them. A lot of women find it hard to do that. Our emotions are very entwined through many aspects of our day. Something wrong in our primary relationship will often affect everything. We want to resolve conflicts. We give more brain space to thinking about our relationships, and the result is that we place a higher value on love .

[Cyra]

 

I've noticed a lot of men don't think feelings should prompt action. Most MM don't think, "I love OW, therefore I should leave my wife" . They just think "I love OW." It doesn't go beyond that.

 

Many guys will feel emotions, and then move on with their day, not being swayed by them. A lot of women find it hard to do that. Our emotions are very entwined through many aspects of our day. Something wrong in our primary relationship will often affect everything. We want to resolve conflicts. We give more brain space to thinking about our relationships, and the result is that we place a higher value on love .

 

Thank you, QS. I understand a bit better now. It is true, often when something happened in the relationship I was unable to focus on anything else until it was resolved. It was literally like my brain was taken over by it and not much else mattered.

 

I also get the statement ' I love OW'that does not imply further action for men. It corresponds perfectly with what I have experienced. Thank you for your reply, you have great insight. I have a lot to learn

Edited October 15, 2016 by Cyra

[sandylee1]

Instead of saying"This was just a bit of fun and I cannot leave as I DON'T WANT TO." or "This is over, so there is absolutely NO need to talk any more."

 

MY wife won't let me, tends to make the OW think he truly loves me but he cannot show it, due to his harridan of a wife ruling the roost. "Poor man, I can give him all the love she cannot..." and so she sticks in there hoping against hope.

 

BUT the truth is many MM do not want final closure, they want continued sexual access

 

Very true. Because let's be honest. If any MM wanted to leave, he could. Your BW isn't watching you 24/7. You could get a secret phone. You could call OW from work. You could still go and see her if you wanted to.

 

The fact is,

 

- MM doesn't want to leave.

- He doesn't want to loose assets.

- He doesn't want to look like the bad guy

 

The cowardice of saying "she won't let me" is really infuriating. It gives the impression to the OW that you really do want to be in touch with her

 

What MM doesn't say is ... I would like to stay in contact, but I'm not leaving her because I don't want to. I still want you to be my OW, but it's really risky at the moment and you aren't worth the risk of me loosing my wife and my lifestyle for. It was fun while she didn't know, but it's gonna end or I have to stay on the down low until the coast is clear.

[sandylee1]

I get what you are saying but still I do not understand how someone could value those things more than love? Is it a man thing? Can someone explain it to me, I am truly perplexed but open to new insight.

 

 

Because romantic love doesn't top everything for everyone. There's also a fear it won't last. Affair love hasn't stood the test of time or gone through kids and family problems.

 

When you get married and have children it's no longer just your life and your spouse's life that will be affected by your decision.

 

To leave your spouse, the other person would have to be (in the mind of the wayward spouse anyway), so much better/more compatible. The other person would have to be so worth the damage, it's going to cause to the children.

 

Some kids are really affected by divorce. They start self harming, their grades fall at school, their behaviour becomes challenging too.

 

That's not to say anyone should remain in an unhappy marriage, but in truth, the marriage isn't likely to be as bad as the MM makes out.

 

Another reason I've been told that MMs don't leave, is because they don't think the feeling will last forever. Remember they were once very in love and proposed to their wife .... If that in love feeling didn't last with the wife then why will it last with you.

 

Why risk all the upheaval. Bottom line ... it's just not worth it.

[jenkins95]

Wow guys! I have been out all day after contributing a few posts early this morning. I have been looking forward to coming back to see how the thread has moved on, and I am not disappointed. What fantastic posts - you have really excelled yourselves on this one guys!

 

If I may, I'd like to answer a question Cyra put to me this morning but that I didn't have time to respond to earlier on in the day.....

 

So did you just stay with your wife because she was upset and you did not want to hurt her feelings? It sounds to me like you sacrificed your chance of happiness with someone you loved for the sake of not upsetting your wife?'

 

Hand on heart, I stayed for love. I really did, and that is the only reason i would have stayed. But I'm not talking about the kind of love that you describe Cyra - the heart stopping, urgent, all consuming obsessive love.... Which I think one poster used the term 'limerence' to describe. I'm talking about the kind of love that Cymbelline described. The kind of love that has a long shared history that has experienced ups and downs. Of cuddling up on the sofa in the evening and watching a film together, with one or other of us probably falling asleep. The love for a woman that has stood by me and supported me through thick and thin, even when I hurt her so badly. The love of noticing that she bought a certain brand of biscuits when she went shopping just because she knows they are my favourites. The love for the woman who has tirelessly looked after and raised my children while I have been out working. The woman who always calls me straight away when she wants advice, or wants to share a piece of news with me and tells me she is proud of me when i achieve something at work. The woman who lets me sleep in on a Saturday morning because I've been working hard. The woman who agreed to marry me and give herself completely to me - forever. The woman who smiles at new and tells me she loves be every day. THAT is the love that I stayed for. The love that I took for granted, abused and betrayed, because I was too weak, stupid and blind to see what a wonderful thing I had.

 

Now, this kind of love may not sell many books, or set people's pulses racing, but this is the love of real life. Stable, mature, respectful love that warms the heart and brings stability to the whole family, and by extension....... The whole community.

 

Now I am not playing down that other kind of love. It is amazing!! It's like magic. Some people never experience it which is tragic because I think everyone should experience that at least once in their lives. Indeed, ideally, everyone should experience it exactly once in their lives... With the person that they go on to spend the rest of their lives with. Because this kind of love, for all it gives, it has the potential to take away even more. At the same time as making you feel like you could conquer the world, fills you so full of energy, full of spirit, full of life, this love also leaves you vulnerable, needy, urgent, obsessed and exposed to being badly hurt. This is why I used the word crazy earlier. In many ways, this kind of love is like a temporary insanity - nothing else matters when you are in its grip - it is so all consuming. But it can't, and neither should it, last forever. Look around you at couples in their 40s, 50s,60s, 70s. Chances are they are not in Cyra type love, they are in Cymbelline type love. They initially were likely in limerence, and this developed, very naturally and normally into the more stable, mature, normal love over the course of a few years. This is the way of the world and it works just fine.

 

The trouble is, people get greedy, complacent, entitled and forget just what a great thing they have. After years of stable, mature love, they can get seduced by the lure of limerence. This is what happened to me. I had hit 40, my life has settled into a routine revolving around work and kids, things became routine and predictable, we stopped making a big effort, all our conversations revolved around the practicalities of daily life, we stopped 'dating'. I felt my youth slipping away and noticed that I was turning into my father...... And then a beautiful woman in her 20s started paying me attention, complimenting and looking at me with desire in her eyes. No excuses. A strong, decent man would have walked away........ But I couldn't resist (or I DIDN'T resist). It's the oldest story in the book. The love for the OW was real, very real and I will never forget her. But it should never have happened. I've actually been in limerence with four different women in my life......I should have stopped at three (my wife). I was weak and stupid......... And it led, predictably, to heartbreak for several people. Buyer, painful lessons learned.

 

On d-day, I could only have stayed for love. When she collapsed, I had no doubt that she still loved me. But could I still love her? Well, in that moment my head was so all over the place that i really didn't know...... But I knew it was possible, with all the hard work, and I knew I wanted to give it my very best shot. So when she gave me a second chance I took it. A year later, I know it was the right decision. Could I have ever developed that more stable kind of love for the OW? Sure I could....... If we'd both been single and had the time to let a normal healthy relationship develop, I have no doubt. But we weren't. I wasn't. I was married with children. Our relationship played out in a magical secret bubble, enabled by lies and cheating and stolen moments - it's illicit, urgent nature only adding to its magic. It was real in what it was, but it was not sustainable and it was plain wrong.

 

What I am finding now is that if you have that Cymbelline type love and you nurture and protect it and give it everything, a little of that Cyra type love can come back too!

 

In many ways, I consider myself the worst type of MM, because there was nothing really wrong with my marriage, nothing that couldn't be fixed. We just got into a rut and stopped making the effort. Stopped putting each other as number one. So when opportunity presented itself, I was weak and became drawn in by it. I effectively behaved as a hedonist, taking my illicit pleasure with the entitlement of an 18th century French King like Louis XV, - a libertine if you will, being told i was the most handsome, greatest lover in the world when in my secret bubble, while maintaining my good husband and good father role back home. The classic cake eater. A complete POS. No question.

 

The fact that I suffer so much now at least shows me that I am not all bad. And things are getting better by the week.

 

Sorry to ramble here! I would just end by saying that I agree with Cyra that I am every but in agreement with OW who can't understand why MM stay for anything other than love.a classic example is IndependentWoman's thread of yesterday. Here she tells us that the MM hasn't loved his wife for a long time and that she hasn't loved him for a long time and they are basically just staying to keep their finances in order - and all this is public knowledge their family and circle of friends. If this really is true and the MM really is in love with the OW, then this is one of the saddest things I've read in a long time.

 

I really did stay for love - love for my wife, our kids, our home, our extended family and our shared history. I appreciate what I've got so much now and I will work to protect it until the end of my days.

 

Goodnight everyone!

Edited October 15, 2016 by jenkins95

[aileD]

Because romantic love doesn't top everything for everyone. There's also a fear it won't last. Affair love hasn't stood the test of time or gone through kids and family problems.

 

When you get married and have children it's no longer just your life and your spouse's life that will be affected by your decision.

 

To leave your spouse, the other person would have to be (in the mind of the wayward spouse anyway), so much better/more compatible. The other person would have to be so worth the damage, it's going to cause to the children.

 

Some kids are really affected by divorce. They start self harming, their grades fall at school, their behaviour becomes challenging too.

 

That's not to say anyone should remain in an unhappy marriage, but in truth, the marriage isn't likely to be as bad as the MM makes out.

 

Another reason I've been told that MMs don't leave, is because they don't think the feeling will last forever. Remember they were once very in love and proposed to their wife .... If that in love feeling didn't last with the wife then why will it last with you.

 

Why risk all the upheaval. Bottom line ... it's just not worth it.

 

This.

 

And just because the romantic love is not there currently it doesn't mean it can't be. Marriages ebb and flow.

 

There is a deeper love there. Knowing you can get through the worst and still find a way back to each other, that the legacy you built will live on and what I mean by legacy is your family. Your grandchildren. decisions now can affect generations.

 

My H and I still had (have) the same dreams. We have always talked about being the little old couple on the rocking chairs looking out at our family, kids, grandkids, great grandkids playing in the yard on holidays. When it came down to it he just couldn't envision that future with anyone but me. It wouldn't be the same with someone else...someone he had no shared genes with. (Meaning kids).

 

Love is a fluid thing. We may never have the limerance we had at the beginning but no one does. Limerance is designed to lure you in...then when it wears off you either break up or you revolve into deeper love.

 

That was something we both learned thru this. That we can weather storms and it's ok. There will be storms...to more we fight them together, the deeper our connection becomes.

 

ROMANCE is back here....and it will ebb and flow throughout our time together. We are learning how to deal with the ebbs better because of this situation

 

OW just don't share that with WS during the affair. They are in the limerance stage indefinitely....not till a real relationship begines do you get the chance to form the deeper connections

[jenkins95]

ExMM told me he loved me ALL the time, he asked me to marry him once he was divorced

 

(((((Cyra))))) this is future faking of the highest order. No wonder you struggle so much. He had no right to ask you to marry him until he had his divorce papers in his hand. One step at a time C - you will get past this. You really will.

[MidnightBlue1980]

But that's is exactly what the vast majority of the MW here are doing to they husbands, one stated her husband was passionless bad at sex and she isn't in love, but has no plans to leave...what's that about? Oh yeah, it's about hubby providing a very comfortable lifestyle she can't envision giving up.

 

I agree. I am not one of those women who think all men are evil and all women are blameless. I have men friends IRL and I hear a lot of bad things women do to them. We all have the capacity for great love and great evil, regardless of gender or sexuality.

 

Yes, any person who is staying with a spouse and pretending to be in love with them is wrong, unless of course it's a marriage of convenience and both parties are okay with it and seeing other people.

[MidnightBlue1980]

Very true. Because let's be honest. If any MM wanted to leave, he could. Your BW isn't watching you 24/7. You could get a secret phone. You could call OW from work. You could still go and see her if you wanted to.

 

The fact is,

 

- MM doesn't want to leave.

- He doesn't want to loose assets.

- He doesn't want to look like the bad guy

 

The cowardice of saying "she won't let me" is really infuriating. It gives the impression to the OW that you really do want to be in touch with her

 

What MM doesn't say is ... I would like to stay in contact, but I'm not leaving her because I don't want to. I still want you to be my OW, but it's really risky at the moment and you aren't worth the risk of me loosing my wife and my lifestyle for. It was fun while she didn't know, but it's gonna end or I have to stay on the down low until the coast is clear.

 

Exactly. And this is why I do not monitor my husband, nor he me. It is why we each went through the pain of our own affairs ending - so we would really think twice before going down that road again.

 

If you feel your spouse "ended it" on you, you will learn nothing and as soon as they are not looking, you will do it again like a kid with the cookie jar. But if you let your kid eat 50 cookies and vomit all over the floor, they probably will not touch another cookie for quite some time and they will never forget the experience.

[Chica80]

(((((jenkins))))))

I am literally sitting here crying.....your post was beautiful...and it breaks my heart....

[Jemima1234]

Wow guys! I have been out all day after contributing a few posts early this morning. I have been looking forward to coming back to see how the thread has moved on, and I am not disappointed. What fantastic posts - you have really excelled yourselves on this one guys!

 

If I may, I'd like to answer a question Cyra put to me this morning but that I didn't have time to respond to earlier on in the day.....

 

 

 

Hand on heart, I stayed for love. I really did, and that is the only reason i would have stayed. But I'm not talking about the kind of love that you describe Cyra - the heart stopping, urgent, all consuming obsessive love.... Which I think one poster used the term 'limerence' to describe. I'm talking about the kind of love that Cymbelline described. The kind of love that has a long shared history that has experienced ups and downs. Of cuddling up on the sofa in the evening and watching a film together, with one or other of us probably falling asleep. The love for a woman that has stood by me and supported me through thick and thin, even when I hurt her so badly. The love of noticing that she bought a certain brand of biscuits when she went shopping just because she knows they are my favourites. The love for the woman who has tirelessly looked after and raised my children while I have been out working. The woman who always calls me straight away when she wants advice, or wants to share a piece of news with me and tells me she is proud of me when i achieve something at work. The woman who lets me sleep in on a Saturday morning because I've been working hard. The woman who agreed to marry me and give herself completely to me - forever. The woman who smiles at new and tells me she loves be every day. THAT is the love that I stayed for. The love that I took for granted, abused and betrayed, because I was too weak, stupid and blind to see what a wonderful thing I had.

 

Now, this kind of love may not sell many books, or set people's pulses racing, but this is the love of real life. Stable, mature, respectful love that warms the heart and brings stability to the whole family, and by extension....... The whole community.

 

Now I am not playing down that other kind of love. It is amazing!! It's like magic. Some people never experience it which is tragic because I think everyone should experience that at least once in their lives. Indeed, ideally, everyone should experience it exactly once in their lives... With the person that they go on to spend the rest of their lives with. Because this kind of love, for all it gives, it has the potential to take away even more. At the same time as making you feel like you could conquer the world, fills you so full of energy, full of spirit, full of life, this love also leaves you vulnerable, needy, urgent, obsessed and exposed to being badly hurt. This is why I used the word crazy earlier. In many ways, this kind of love is like a temporary insanity - nothing else matters when you are in its grip - it is so all consuming. But it can't, and neither should it, last forever. Look around you at couples in their 40s, 50s,60s, 70s. Chances are they are not in Cyra type love, they are in Cymbelline type love. They initially were likely in limerence, and this developed, very naturally and normally into the more stable, mature, normal love over the course of a few years. This is the way of the world and it works just fine.

 

The trouble is, people get greedy, complacent, entitled and forget just what a great thing they have. After years of stable, mature love, they can get seduced by the lure of limerence. This is what happened to me. I had hit 40, my life has settled into a routine revolving around work and kids, things became routine and predictable, we stopped making a big effort, all our conversations revolved around the practicalities of daily life, we stopped 'dating'. I felt my youth slipping away and noticed that I was turning into my father...... And then a beautiful woman in her 20s started paying me attention, complimenting and looking at me with desire in her eyes. No excuses. A strong, decent man would have walked away........ But I couldn't resist (or I DIDN'T resist). It's the oldest story in the book. The love for the OW was real, very real and I will never forget her. But it should never have happened. I've actually been in limerence with four different women in my life......I should have stopped at three (my wife). I was weak and stupid......... And it led, predictably, to heartbreak for several people. Buyer, painful lessons learned.

 

On d-day, I could only have stayed for love. When she collapsed, I had no doubt that she still loved me. But could I still love her? Well, in that moment my head was so all over the place that i really didn't know...... But I knew it was possible, with all the hard work, and I knew I wanted to give it my very best shot. So when she gave me a second chance I took it. A year later, I know it was the right decision. Could I have ever developed that more stable kind of love for the OW? Sure I could....... If we'd both been single and had the time to let a normal healthy relationship develop, I have no doubt. But we weren't. I wasn't. I was married with children. Our relationship played out in a magical secret bubble, enabled by lies and cheating and stolen moments - it's illicit, urgent nature only adding to its magic. It was real in what it was, but it was not sustainable and it was plain wrong.

 

What I am finding now is that if you have that Cymbelline type love and you nurture and protect it and give it everything, a little of that Cyra type love can come back too!

 

In many ways, I consider myself the worst type of MM, because there was nothing really wrong with my marriage, nothing that couldn't be fixed. We just got into a rut and stopped making the effort. Stopped putting each other as number one. So when opportunity presented itself, I was weak and became drawn in by it. I effectively behaved as a hedonist, taking my illicit pleasure with the entitlement of an 18th century French King like Louis XV, - a libertine if you will, being told i was the most handsome, greatest lover in the world when in my secret bubble, while maintaining my good husband and good father role back home. The classic cake eater. A complete POS. No question.

 

The fact that I suffer so much now at least shows me that I am not all bad. And things are getting better by the week.

 

Sorry to ramble here! I would just end by saying that I agree with Cyra that I am every but in agreement with OW who can't understand why MM stay for anything other than love.a classic example is IndependentWoman's thread of yesterday. Here she tells us that the MM hasn't loved his wife for a long time and that she hasn't loved him for a long time and they are basically just staying to keep their finances in order - and all this is public knowledge their family and circle of friends. If this really is true and the MM really is in love with the OW, then this is one of the saddest things I've read in a long time.

 

I really did stay for love - love for my wife, our kids, our home, our extended family and our shared history. I appreciate what I've got so much now and I will work to protect it until the end of my days.

 

Goodnight everyone!

 

Jenkins- one of best posts have ever read - breaks my heart in some ways as an OW but I kind of get it too. And I am glad for you tha you are in this place. Thanks for sharing- so helpful to hear from a MM perspective

 

And what for what it's worth- I don't think you are a POS. I admire you for taking responsibility, working through your feelings and for doing the right thing. You don't say it (I reckon because you are a good person) but I think you sacrificed yourself and your own wants to do right by your wife and family. And I admire you for that.

[aileD]

Wow guys! I have been out all day after contributing a few posts early this morning. I have been looking forward to coming back to see how the thread has moved on, and I am not disappointed. What fantastic posts - you have really excelled yourselves on this one guys!

 

If I may, I'd like to answer a question Cyra put to me this morning but that I didn't have time to respond to earlier on in the day.....

 

 

 

Hand on heart, I stayed for love. I really did, and that is the only reason i would have stayed. But I'm not talking about the kind of love that you describe Cyra - the heart stopping, urgent, all consuming obsessive love.... Which I think one poster used the term 'limerence' to describe. I'm talking about the kind of love that Cymbelline described. The kind of love that has a long shared history that has experienced ups and downs. Of cuddling up on the sofa in the evening and watching a film together, with one or other of us probably falling asleep. The love for a woman that has stood by me and supported me through thick and thin, even when I hurt her so badly. The love of noticing that she bought a certain brand of biscuits when she went shopping just because she knows they are my favourites. The love for the woman who has tirelessly looked after and raised my children while I have been out working. The woman who always calls me straight away when she wants advice, or wants to share a piece of news with me and tells me she is proud of me when i achieve something at work. The woman who lets me sleep in on a Saturday morning because I've been working hard. The woman who agreed to marry me and give herself completely to me - forever. The woman who smiles at new and tells me she loves be every day. THAT is the love that I stayed for. The love that I took for granted, abused and betrayed, because I was too weak, stupid and blind to see what a wonderful thing I had.

 

Now, this kind of love may not sell many books, or set people's pulses racing, but this is the love of real life. Stable, mature, respectful love that warms the heart and brings stability to the whole family, and by extension....... The whole community.

 

Now I am not playing down that other kind of love. It is amazing!! It's like magic. Some people never experience it which is tragic because I think everyone should experience that at least once in their lives. Indeed, ideally, everyone should experience it exactly once in their lives... With the person that they go on to spend the rest of their lives with. Because this kind of love, for all it gives, it has the potential to take away even more. At the same time as making you feel like you could conquer the world, fills you so full of energy, full of spirit, full of life, this love also leaves you vulnerable, needy, urgent, obsessed and exposed to being badly hurt. This is why I used the word crazy earlier. In many ways, this kind of love is like a temporary insanity - nothing else matters when you are in its grip - it is so all consuming. But it can't, and neither should it, last forever. Look around you at couples in their 40s, 50s,60s, 70s. Chances are they are not in Cyra type love, they are in Cymbelline type love. They initially were likely in limerence, and this developed, very naturally and normally into the more stable, mature, normal love over the course of a few years. This is the way of the world and it works just fine.

 

The trouble is, people get greedy, complacent, entitled and forget just what a great thing they have. After years of stable, mature love, they can get seduced by the lure of limerence. This is what happened to me. I had hit 40, my life has settled into a routine revolving around work and kids, things became routine and predictable, we stopped making a big effort, all our conversations revolved around the practicalities of daily life, we stopped 'dating'. I felt my youth slipping away and noticed that I was turning into my father...... And then a beautiful woman in her 20s started paying me attention, complimenting and looking at me with desire in her eyes. No excuses. A strong, decent man would have walked away........ But I couldn't resist (or I DIDN'T resist). It's the oldest story in the book. The love for the OW was real, very real and I will never forget her. But it should never have happened. I've actually been in limerence with four different women in my life......I should have stopped at three (my wife). I was weak and stupid......... And it led, predictably, to heartbreak for several people. Buyer, painful lessons learned.

 

On d-day, I could only have stayed for love. When she collapsed, I had no doubt that she still loved me. But could I still love her? Well, in that moment my head was so all over the place that i really didn't know...... But I knew it was possible, with all the hard work, and I knew I wanted to give it my very best shot. So when she gave me a second chance I took it. A year later, I know it was the right decision. Could I have ever developed that more stable kind of love for the OW? Sure I could....... If we'd both been single and had the time to let a normal healthy relationship develop, I have no doubt. But we weren't. I wasn't. I was married with children. Our relationship played out in a magical secret bubble, enabled by lies and cheating and stolen moments - it's illicit, urgent nature only adding to its magic. It was real in what it was, but it was not sustainable and it was plain wrong.

 

What I am finding now is that if you have that Cymbelline type love and you nurture and protect it and give it everything, a little of that Cyra type love can come back too!

 

In many ways, I consider myself the worst type of MM, because there was nothing really wrong with my marriage, nothing that couldn't be fixed. We just got into a rut and stopped making the effort. Stopped putting each other as number one. So when opportunity presented itself, I was weak and became drawn in by it. I effectively behaved as a hedonist, taking my illicit pleasure with the entitlement of an 18th century French King like Louis XV, - a libertine if you will, being told i was the most handsome, greatest lover in the world when in my secret bubble, while maintaining my good husband and good father role back home. The classic cake eater. A complete POS. No question.

 

The fact that I suffer so much now at least shows me that I am not all bad. And things are getting better by the week.

 

Sorry to ramble here! I would just end by saying that I agree with Cyra that I am every but in agreement with OW who can't understand why MM stay for anything other than love.a classic example is IndependentWoman's thread of yesterday. Here she tells us that the MM hasn't loved his wife for a long time and that she hasn't loved him for a long time and they are basically just staying to keep their finances in order - and all this is public knowledge their family and circle of friends. If this really is true and the MM really is in love with the OW, then this is one of the saddest things I've read in a long time.

 

I really did stay for love - love for my wife, our kids, our home, our extended family and our shared history. I appreciate what I've got so much now and I will work to protect it until the end of my days.

 

Goodnight everyone!

 

Jenkins thank you for putting into words what I've been trying to express in a few different threads. My husband realized the same as you and stayed for the same reasons. We learned a lot about deeper love. Still are.

[Grey Cloud]

Jenkins- one of best posts have ever read - breaks my heart in some ways as an OW but I kind of get it too. And I am glad for you tha you are in this place. Thanks for sharing- so helpful to hear from a MM perspective

 

And what for what it's worth- I don't think you are a POS. I admire you for taking responsibility, working through your feelings and for doing the right thing. You don't say it (I reckon because you are a good person) but I think you sacrificed yourself and your own wants to do right by your wife and family. And I admire you for that.

 

I agree. An amazing post Jenkins that sums up the dynamic between married love and limerance love perfectly. Limerance can be so intoxicating that to keep that feeling going you will risk everything to achieve it. One day the bubble bursts and most people will go back to stability, history and the family unit knowing that the fantasy couldn't last forever (no matter how appealing the fantasy was at the time).

[Grey Cloud]

Very true. Because let's be honest. If any MM wanted to leave, he could. Your BW isn't watching you 24/7. You could get a secret phone. You could call OW from work. You could still go and see her if you wanted to.

 

The fact is,

 

- MM doesn't want to leave.

- He doesn't want to loose assets.

- He doesn't want to look like the bad guy

 

The cowardice of saying "she won't let me" is really infuriating. It gives the impression to the OW that you really do want to be in touch with her

 

What MM doesn't say is ... I would like to stay in contact, but I'm not leaving her because I don't want to. I still want you to be my OW, but it's really risky at the moment and you aren't worth the risk of me loosing my wife and my lifestyle for. It was fun while she didn't know, but it's gonna end or I have to stay on the down low until the coast is clear.

 

I totally agree with this. That last paragraph is pretty much what he did say to me! That it was fun but it's getting too risky now that my wife has suspicions. That we were a train wreck waiting to happen and we both had too much to lose.

That it had to end sooner or later. He actually said "I just want things to return to normal at home" I.e. I don't want to continually seem distracted or secretive with my phone and deal with the conflict when my wife questions me about that.

 

The risks associated with the affair suddenly outweighed the rewards.

[MidnightBlue1980]

I totally agree with this. That last paragraph is pretty much what he did say to me! That it was fun but it's getting too risky now that my wife has suspicions. That we were a train wreck waiting to happen and we both had too much to lose.

That it had to end sooner or later. He actually said "I just want things to return to normal at home" I.e. I don't want to continually seem distracted or secretive with my phone and deal with the conflict when my wife questions me about that.

 

The risks associated with the affair suddenly outweighed the rewards.

 

I agree. And worse, he did not understand why I did not agree. After all, I had a husband and kids, it made perfect sense. As it was ending he said, "We just have to stay where we are for the time being." But once his wife knew he said, "I knew it had to end, I had lost you." and "It's time to work on my marriage."

 

That haunted me for the longest time, like he had a choice but acted like he didn't. But you are right, he never had any intention of anything more with me.

 

I still have no idea what he wanted this year, with his weird friendship request. It was good I did not go back there, to that place.

 

And I am better off without him in my life, I know that now. Logically I am 100% there, emotionally, 75% there.

[Onlywhenitrains]

Wow guys! I have been out all day after contributing a few posts early this morning. I have been looking forward to coming back to see how the thread has moved on, and I am not disappointed. What fantastic posts - you have really excelled yourselves on this one guys!

 

If I may, I'd like to answer a question Cyra put to me this morning but that I didn't have time to respond to earlier on in the day.....

 

 

 

Hand on heart, I stayed for love. I really did, and that is the only reason i would have stayed. But I'm not talking about the kind of love that you describe Cyra - the heart stopping, urgent, all consuming obsessive love.... Which I think one poster used the term 'limerence' to describe. I'm talking about the kind of love that Cymbelline described. The kind of love that has a long shared history that has experienced ups and downs. Of cuddling up on the sofa in the evening and watching a film together, with one or other of us probably falling asleep. The love for a woman that has stood by me and supported me through thick and thin, even when I hurt her so badly. The love of noticing that she bought a certain brand of biscuits when she went shopping just because she knows they are my favourites. The love for the woman who has tirelessly looked after and raised my children while I have been out working. The woman who always calls me straight away when she wants advice, or wants to share a piece of news with me and tells me she is proud of me when i achieve something at work. The woman who lets me sleep in on a Saturday morning because I've been working hard. The woman who agreed to marry me and give herself completely to me - forever. The woman who smiles at new and tells me she loves be every day. THAT is the love that I stayed for. The love that I took for granted, abused and betrayed, because I was too weak, stupid and blind to see what a wonderful thing I had.

 

Now, this kind of love may not sell many books, or set people's pulses racing, but this is the love of real life. Stable, mature, respectful love that warms the heart and brings stability to the whole family, and by extension....... The whole community.

 

Now I am not playing down that other kind of love. It is amazing!! It's like magic. Some people never experience it which is tragic because I think everyone should experience that at least once in their lives. Indeed, ideally, everyone should experience it exactly once in their lives... With the person that they go on to spend the rest of their lives with. Because this kind of love, for all it gives, it has the potential to take away even more. At the same time as making you feel like you could conquer the world, fills you so full of energy, full of spirit, full of life, this love also leaves you vulnerable, needy, urgent, obsessed and exposed to being badly hurt. This is why I used the word crazy earlier. In many ways, this kind of love is like a temporary insanity - nothing else matters when you are in its grip - it is so all consuming. But it can't, and neither should it, last forever. Look around you at couples in their 40s, 50s,60s, 70s. Chances are they are not in Cyra type love, they are in Cymbelline type love. They initially were likely in limerence, and this developed, very naturally and normally into the more stable, mature, normal love over the course of a few years. This is the way of the world and it works just fine.

 

The trouble is, people get greedy, complacent, entitled and forget just what a great thing they have. After years of stable, mature love, they can get seduced by the lure of limerence. This is what happened to me. I had hit 40, my life has settled into a routine revolving around work and kids, things became routine and predictable, we stopped making a big effort, all our conversations revolved around the practicalities of daily life, we stopped 'dating'. I felt my youth slipping away and noticed that I was turning into my father...... And then a beautiful woman in her 20s started paying me attention, complimenting and looking at me with desire in her eyes. No excuses. A strong, decent man would have walked away........ But I couldn't resist (or I DIDN'T resist). It's the oldest story in the book. The love for the OW was real, very real and I will never forget her. But it should never have happened. I've actually been in limerence with four different women in my life......I should have stopped at three (my wife). I was weak and stupid......... And it led, predictably, to heartbreak for several people. Buyer, painful lessons learned.

 

On d-day, I could only have stayed for love. When she collapsed, I had no doubt that she still loved me. But could I still love her? Well, in that moment my head was so all over the place that i really didn't know...... But I knew it was possible, with all the hard work, and I knew I wanted to give it my very best shot. So when she gave me a second chance I took it. A year later, I know it was the right decision. Could I have ever developed that more stable kind of love for the OW? Sure I could....... If we'd both been single and had the time to let a normal healthy relationship develop, I have no doubt. But we weren't. I wasn't. I was married with children. Our relationship played out in a magical secret bubble, enabled by lies and cheating and stolen moments - it's illicit, urgent nature only adding to its magic. It was real in what it was, but it was not sustainable and it was plain wrong.

 

What I am finding now is that if you have that Cymbelline type love and you nurture and protect it and give it everything, a little of that Cyra type love can come back too!

 

In many ways, I consider myself the worst type of MM, because there was nothing really wrong with my marriage, nothing that couldn't be fixed. We just got into a rut and stopped making the effort. Stopped putting each other as number one. So when opportunity presented itself, I was weak and became drawn in by it. I effectively behaved as a hedonist, taking my illicit pleasure with the entitlement of an 18th century French King like Louis XV, - a libertine if you will, being told i was the most handsome, greatest lover in the world when in my secret bubble, while maintaining my good husband and good father role back home. The classic cake eater. A complete POS. No question.

 

The fact that I suffer so much now at least shows me that I am not all bad. And things are getting better by the week.

 

Sorry to ramble here! I would just end by saying that I agree with Cyra that I am every but in agreement with OW who can't understand why MM stay for anything other than love.a classic example is IndependentWoman's thread of yesterday. Here she tells us that the MM hasn't loved his wife for a long time and that she hasn't loved him for a long time and they are basically just staying to keep their finances in order - and all this is public knowledge their family and circle of friends. If this really is true and the MM really is in love with the OW, then this is one of the saddest things I've read in a long time.

 

I really did stay for love - love for my wife, our kids, our home, our extended family and our shared history. I appreciate what I've got so much now and I will work to protect it until the end of my days.

 

Goodnight everyone!

 

Jenkins95,

 

I keep re-reading what you wrote! Thank you! Thank you sooooooo much!!!

 

I admire your strength, clarity and dedication in what seem to be very difficult time for you, your wife, and your family!

 

I do not idealize my xMM and think that his reasons for not being with me are the same as yours - I wish that is the truth - but, your post gave me hope and strength to move on. We all make choices. My xMM to live his life as it is, and me to move away from him and not feel like I felt every time he left my place and went to his real life. I'm struggling and striving. I hope one day I'll get to the place where he is just a memory, a fond one without any desire to go back. I don't know if his journey is as painful as mine....it may or may not be. It doesn't matter really at this point. I hope we both find happiness on our own wherever it may hide.

 

Thank you!!!

[Grey Cloud]

I agree. And worse, he did not understand why I did not agree. After all, I had a husband and kids, it made perfect sense. As it was ending he said, "We just have to stay where we are for the time being." But once his wife knew he said, "I knew it had to end, I had lost you." and "It's time to work on my marriage."

 

That haunted me for the longest time, like he had a choice but acted like he didn't. But you are right, he never had any intention of anything more with me.

 

I still have no idea what he wanted this year, with his weird friendship request. It was good I did not go back there, to that place.

 

And I am better off without him in my life, I know that now. Logically I am 100% there, emotionally, 75% there.

 

The weird friendship request this past year was because he didn't want to be the bad guy. And also to serve as an ego boost for him if you were still friendly with him.

[MidnightBlue1980]

The weird friendship request this past year was because he didn't want to be the bad guy. And also to serve as an ego boost for him if you were still friendly with him.

 

You are right. Plus I know it does make him uncomfortable that I don't talk with him. Our meetings are truly the social event of his week and he told me long ago that the worst thing would be to not be friends. And we are now less than friends. We are strangers. It's better for me that way.

 

Is it bad that it's worse that he just let it end and would have been happy to be my buddy? It shows how it really meant literally nothing to him.

 

And the thing is, I knew it from the beginning, how little it meant to him. It's like everyone is saying, I was just a diversion in his life. An amusement.

[aileD]

But you know you're worth more than that right?!!!

[MidnightBlue1980]

But you know you're worth more than that right?!!!

 

Intellectually I do. But emotionally, there is just something about me which attracts and is attracted to, people who do not have my best interests at heart and seek to only hurt me. At this point in my life, I only try to keep my boundaries up and salvage what I still have in my life.

 

On some level though, it's too late for me. The die is cast. I am who I am. An easy mark.

 

My bigger goal is my children and making sure they don't end up like me, a target. I want them to be strong and know their self worth, not be easily used by manipulators and liars and not allow people to use and discard them.

[Chica80]

Intellectually I do. But emotionally, there is just something about me which attracts and is attracted to, people who do not have my best interests at heart and seek to only hurt me. At this point in my life, I only try to keep my boundaries up and salvage what I still have in my life.

 

On some level though, it's too late for me. The die is cast. I am who I am. An easy mark.

 

My bigger goal is my children and making sure they don't end up like me, a target. I want them to be strong and know their self worth, not be easily used by manipulators and liars and not allow people to use and discard them.

 

I can relate....but MB it's never too late. They will learn from you. You have come so far. Have gone through so much. You're stronger than you know.

[lftbehind]

It doesn't compute because in your mind, love is the most important factor in happiness.

 

You are viewing MMs situation through the lens of your own personal beliefs.

 

Since love is everything to you, then it must be everything to him, right? That's a false assumption. If you can let go of that false assumption, MMs choices would make perfect sense.

 

The reality is, there are many paths to happiness. Most MM do not feel that leaving their family for OW is the path to happiness. OW will usually disagree because they are viewing things based on the false assumption that love is equally important to the MM.

 

While men enjoy love and connection, it is often just not the most important thing in their lives. When OW view the situation with that in mind, MMs choices should compute. Love is great, but not essential to MM. So why change their lives for it? Their family unit, their legacy (and sometimes even their reputation) are essential. Love is extra.

 

This doesn't mean they don't love the OW. It just means that they prioritize love differently.

 

It's easy to see why OWs often conclude that MMs are cowards and martyrs, when that conclusion is based on the false assumption that love is the most important thing. Let go of that assumption and the reality becomes clear. He's not "sacrificing his happiness" when love is #5 on his list of "Life's Most Important Things". He's simply acting in his own best interests.

 

If family, legacy and reputation are all more important to MM than love, then it's perfectly logical that he would not sacrifice the most important things in his life for love.

 

Their love for OW is often genuine, but just not important enough to change his life.

 

.

 

This makes sense, but really upsets me. If they MMs family, legacy and reputation are so important, then they need to focus on their marriage and not have an A. They just hurt the AP and their spouses. I think that a lot of men know that love is important to women and that's how they get the women into an A. They tell the woman what they think she wants to hear and don't worry about her feelings. It's about getting sex for him, if she gets hurt it doesn't matter to him. I think if he came out and said his true intentions, she wouldn't have anything to do with him.

[Arieswoman]

I think QuietStorm post #41 mails it here ;

 

Their love for OW is often genuine, but just not important enough to change his life.

[sandylee1]

Jenkins your post was great. I admire you being around here and sharing your views so openly.

 

I think you provide a great insight for the OW about the MM and his inner thoughts.

 

Many other good posts as well from some intelligent minds on this thread, including Allie, QS, MidnightB and AriesW.

[Jersey born raised]

Jenkins description of his wife's reaction struck home with me. The horror of what he had done to betrayed spouse is why I never use the term affair. The term to use is aiways adultery when one or more person is married regardless of the state of the marriage.

 

I've read many BS threads on the infidelity boards. The hardest thing for them to realize that there are usually legitimate issues invovled.

 

The hardest thing for WS, owning the pain of their BS. Reading WS threads I am often left wondering if the WS ever really gets it.

 

Combine the two and I wonder why the rate is reconciliations is as high as it is.

 

Thank you Sunshinechia for raising this issue.