How are we different than MM?

[elaine567]

I've read many BS threads on the infidelity boards. The hardest thing for them to realize that there are usually legitimate issues invovled.

 

The hardest thing for WS, owning the pain of their BS. Reading WS threads I am often left wondering if the WS ever really gets it.

 

Combine the two and I wonder why the rate is reconciliations is as high as it is.

 

 

I think it is because the reconciliation is not usually just about the two people involved or their "love", there are so many other things to take into account that may have little to do with them as "lovers".

 

Psychological, emotional, social, financial, spiritual, nostalgic, pragmatic etc. reasons for staying married and sometimes holding grimly onto marriage, despite all.

[Cyra]

This makes sense, but really upsets me. If they MMs family, legacy and reputation are so important, then they need to focus on their marriage and not have an A. They just hurt the AP and their spouses. I think that a lot of men know that love is important to women and that's how they get the women into an A. They tell the woman what they think she wants to hear and don't worry about her feelings. It's about getting sex for him, if she gets hurt it doesn't matter to him. I think if he came out and said his true intentions, she wouldn't have anything to do with him.

 

^^^ Totally agree. They do it because they want it all. They tell lies (not all but most) in order to get that they want.

[elaine567]

This makes sense, but really upsets me. If they MMs family, legacy and reputation are so important, then they need to focus on their marriage and not have an A. They just hurt the AP and their spouses. I think that a lot of men know that love is important to women and that's how they get the women into an A. They tell the woman what they think she wants to hear and don't worry about her feelings. It's about getting sex for him, if she gets hurt it doesn't matter to him. I think if he came out and said his true intentions, she wouldn't have anything to do with him.

 

Sad but true.

Women, will always be downtrodden and "love sick" if they keep on believing in MM.

It is a dog eat dog world and MM are just looking out for themselves.

It is hardly his fault if some woman falls for him and believes his lies. She knows he is married after all...

Until women realise this and get with the game, this forum is always going to be full of broken hearts

[Cyra]

I agree. An amazing post Jenkins that sums up the dynamic between married love and limerance love perfectly. Limerance can be so intoxicating that to keep that feeling going you will risk everything to achieve it. One day the bubble bursts and most people will go back to stability, history and the family unit knowing that the fantasy couldn't last forever (no matter how appealing the fantasy was at the time).

 

I understand this, however. I never had the false expectations that if I got together with xMM, it would always be the limerance phase. I was completely aware that this would wear off, there would be difficult times and our life would become more ordinary, however I welcomed that, as I was equally excited about sharing mundane things of life with him as I was about the excitement in the beginning. Of course anyone who hopes or expects that the new life with AP will be forever as exciting lives in a delusion and is in for a slap in the face by reality. But I dont think everyone thinks that, and IMO one can achieve the stability and make new history with the new person.

[elaine567]

I understand this, however. I never had the false expectations that if I got together with xMM, it would always be the limerance phase. I was completely aware that this would wear off, there would be difficult times and our life would become more ordinary, however I welcomed that, as I was equally excited about sharing mundane things of life with him as I was about the excitement in the beginning. Of course anyone who hopes or expects that the new life with AP will be forever as exciting lives in a delusion and is in for a slap in the face by reality. But I dont think everyone thinks that, and IMO one can achieve the stability and make new history with the new person.

 

I agree and whilst a lot is made of the "fantasy world" and of the "affair fog" I think some OWs just long for "normality", and to have a "boring" monogamous relationship, with his socks on the floor, bills to pay, grass to mow, and his dirty plate left on the kitchen worktop.

They want the relationship to progress to "normal stuff", and are often very frustrated when it doesn't pan out that way.

[Cyra]

I agree and whilst a lot is made of the "fantasy world" and of the "affair fog" I think some OWs just long for "normality", and to have a "boring" monogamous relationship, with his socks on the floor, bills to pay, grass to mow, and his dirty plate left on the kitchen worktop.

They want the relationship to progress to "normal stuff", and are often very frustrated when it doesn't pan out that way.

 

Exactly. That is one of the things that upsets me most, that we never got a shot at the 'normal stuff'. Yes we had all the excitement, the drama, the rush but it wasn't real. I wanted to have a real life with him, not live in a fantasy forever.

[elaine567]

Exactly. That is one of the things that upsets me most, that we never got a shot at the 'normal stuff'. Yes we had all the excitement, the drama, the rush but it wasn't real. I wanted to have a real life with him, not live in a fantasy forever.

 

But I guess, for him, the rush, the excitement, the drama was "love".

The "normality" of living with you was I guess "less than" the normality of living at home in his own bed with his own things all around him. He was 50, not 20. At 50, people get settled, they tend to love familiarity, cosiness and safety, even if they say they hate it. YOU were just a step too far for him.

 

BTW, I think "hot and cold" is a very bad sign in any relationship. At the first sign of coldness was when you should have bailed, not let it carry on for nearly two years till it came to its natural end and you were then in far too deep.

[Cyra]

BTW, I think "hot and cold" is a very bad sign in any relationship. At the first sign of coldness was when you should have bailed, not let it carry on for nearly two years till it came to its natural end and you were then in far too deep.

 

Truer words never spoken. I completely realize this now. The hot and cold thing was complete news to me, I have never experienced it before. (I guess because I was never involved with a MM before ) When he first went cold, he said he needed some time to think about things which I thought was fair enough and I accommodated him. Needless to say when he then came back saying that he realized he loved me and did not want to be without me, logically I thought, Well he clearly thought about it and made up his mind. But of course that wasn't the case and further episodes followed. With each, I trusted him a little less and I lost some self-respect for myself. So yes, I should have bailed, I know that now. But back then I was naive and I hoped and I always ended up taking him back, stupidly believing his excuses and promises. We live and learn, I know now I am never going to put myself in such a situation again and will never accept crumbs or inconsistent behavior from anyone.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Cyra

[aileD]

This makes sense, but really upsets me. If they MMs family, legacy and reputation are so important, then they need to focus on their marriage and not have an A.

 

It upsets me too. And I agree. But I think what happens most times is it's a case of "you don't know what you have until you lose it".

 

The affair, D-Day and divorce threats and the pressure for Most WS to leave sometimes makes the WS wake up. They have never thought about these things before but now that they are faced with losing them...it makes them think twice.

 

My H affair wasn't about sex. He thought he did love her. He's seeing now that it was more infatuation, addiction, limerance than actual love...but during the A ...he would have told you he loved this girl to the depths of his soul. And maybe, it would have developed into a deeper real love had he left....but ultimately, he didn't want to take that chance. Didn't want to lose all he had here--including me and our marriage.

 

But he didn't come back here because he was head over heels for me--and that's ok. Some people say it's not, but the reality of marriage and life is that you make decisions that are best for you and your family. You make those decisions together and you do what you have to do to make them work. My H came back to me saying "our relationship needs a lot of work. It's not what I want out of a relationship right now. But you are my wife and I made mistakes too. I didn't give 100% effort to our marriage and it's not fair to us, to you and to our kids and family to walk away without putting in 100% effort. I don't know if it will work but you are my best friend, I was madly in love with you once so I know we have the ability to be there again and our family, the life we built and your faith in our love is worth it to me to leave her and give my all to our marriage."

 

That I think is a deeper and more mature kind of love. It's deciding to work through things. I can be all high and mighty (can't think of a better phrase, I don't mean to sound condescending) and say "I don't want be with anyone who isn't madly in love with me!" But he reality is, Marriage is a lifelong commitment and we both are going to fall in and out of love with each other over the years...it's our family and commitment that will keeps us together through those rough times. That's what marriage is...in reality. Ask any old couple that's been married 40+ years.

 

Ideally he would have realized all this BEFORE having an affair of course, but I honestly feel we are getting to the place we really needed to get to and the affair was the jumping off point. Had he not had an affair we might have continued to grow apart....the affair brought all this to light and is allowing us to build the kind of marriage that we really wanted. I know it sounds awful but it's true. And sometimes truth isn't pretty.

Edited October 16, 2016 by aileD

[jenkins95]

Thank you so much Only! And for all the other posters that commented on my post from last night - I was quite overwhelmed this morning when I found the comments. I'm glad that it spoke to some members here!

 

I'm also sorry to have rambled, hijacked the thread somewhat and taken it off topic. As it sparked a response, if the moderators don't mind, I may copy sections of it and start a "Why I stayed" type of thread on the infidelity forum.

 

Only, and others in your position, I truly hope you manage to move on and be happy soon. There is a bright future out there once you get past this horror. You will have learned so much about life through this - a very hard way to learn lessons, but it will set you up well for the rest of your life.

 

I wish you all the very best and know we are here for you. Please keep posting!

 

 

 

 

Jenkins95,

 

I keep re-reading what you wrote! Thank you! Thank you sooooooo much!!!

 

I admire your strength, clarity and dedication in what seem to be very difficult time for you, your wife, and your family!

 

I do not idealize my xMM and think that his reasons for not being with me are the same as yours - I wish that is the truth - but, your post gave me hope and strength to move on. We all make choices. My xMM to live his life as it is, and me to move away from him and not feel like I felt every time he left my place and went to his real life. I'm struggling and striving. I hope one day I'll get to the place where he is just a memory, a fond one without any desire to go back. I don't know if his journey is as painful as mine....it may or may not be. It doesn't matter really at this point. I hope we both find happiness on our own wherever it may hide.

 

Thank you!!!

[jenkins95]

So true Elaine. And the horribly, cruelly ironic thing about this it that the MM in many cases probably wants just the opposite. He wants it to stay in the fantasy stage, because, the sad truth is that if it became 'reduced' to a normal relationship....well, that would be no different from his marriage. The exact 'normal', 'mundane' (but actually quite lovely if he could only see it) existence that he is trying to escape from.

 

Affairs just suck - everyone loses

 

I agree and whilst a lot is made of the "fantasy world" and of the "affair fog" I think some OWs just long for "normality", and to have a "boring" monogamous relationship, with his socks on the floor, bills to pay, grass to mow, and his dirty plate left on the kitchen worktop.

They want the relationship to progress to "normal stuff", and are often very frustrated when it doesn't pan out that way.

[MidnightBlue1980]

It upsets me too. And I agree. But I think what happens most times is it's a case of "you don't know what you have until you lose it".

 

The affair, D-Day and divorce threats and the pressure for Most WS to leave sometimes makes the WS wake up. They have never thought about these things before but now that they are faced with losing them...it makes them think twice.

 

My H affair wasn't about sex. He thought he did love her. He's seeing now that it was more infatuation, addiction, limerance than actual love...but during the A ...he would have told you he loved this girl to the depths of his soul. And maybe, it would have developed into a deeper real love had he left....but ultimately, he didn't want to take that chance. Didn't want to lose all he had here--including me and our marriage.

 

But he didn't come back here because he was head over heels for me--and that's ok. Some people say it's not, but the reality of marriage and life is that you make decisions that are best for you and your family. You make those decisions together and you do what you have to do to make them work. My H came back to me saying "our relationship needs a lot of work. It's not what I want out of a relationship right now. But you are my wife and I made mistakes too. I didn't give 100% effort to our marriage and it's not fair to us, to you and to our kids and family to walk away without putting in 100% effort. I don't know if it will work but you are my best friend, I was madly in love with you once so I know we have the ability to be there again and our family, the life we built and your faith in our love is worth it to me to leave her and give my all to our marriage."

 

That I think is a deeper and more mature kind of love. It's deciding to work through things. I can be all high and mighty (can't think of a better phrase, I don't mean to sound condescending) and say "I don't want be with anyone who isn't madly in love with me!" But he reality is, Marriage is a lifelong commitment and we both are going to fall in and out of love with each other over the years...it's our family and commitment that will keeps us together through those rough times. That's what marriage is...in reality. Ask any old couple that's been married 40+ years.

 

Ideally he would have realized all this BEFORE having an affair of course, but I honestly feel we are getting to the place we really needed to get to and the affair was the jumping off point. Had he not had an affair we might have continued to grow apart....the affair brought all this to light and is allowing us to build the kind of marriage that we really wanted. I know it sounds awful but it's true. And sometimes truth isn't pretty.

 

I disagree with all this and I think your logic is flawed. I understand you have to believe this because you want your marriage and you need to justify to yourself why it is okay to stay with someone who has cheated on you with multiple other women and who in your own words - 'did not return to you because of love.' I followed your thread so I am aware he was living in a car with a 20 year old. I would assume he returned because he liked living in his house like a normal person without all the drama. This is not a 'deeper form of love'. It's certainly not self love by any means.

 

You know, there are no awards at the end of life for sticking it out in a sh*tty marriage. If you look at the threads on the other board, there are many people like yourself who did exactly what you are doing - and then they wake up 20 years from now and walk out. To stay with someone who you already know is not with you out of love is self sabotage and will destroy your self esteem and self worth.

 

Do you have kids? They will emulate you. Would you want them settling for someone who repeatedly cheats on them, acting like staying in a bad marriage is some kind of crusade for mankind? There is no greater good being served here, it's just you sticking it out because you feel you should.

 

If I recall you are 40. You write like you are 65. You are younger than me, I am 44. You could live another 50 years. Is this the way you want to spend them?

 

I'm actually trying to help but also maybe I want to light your fire. I want to see you get mad at a man who left you to go live in a car with a 20 year old and who does not even pretend to be back because you are the great love of his life. I want you to see that you deserve better. You tell all the OW that they deserve better. Don't you?

[jenkins95]

I understand this, however. I never had the false expectations that if I got together with xMM, it would always be the limerance phase. I was completely aware that this would wear off, there would be difficult times and our life would become more ordinary, however I welcomed that, as I was equally excited about sharing mundane things of life with him as I was about the excitement in the beginning. Of course anyone who hopes or expects that the new life with AP will be forever as exciting lives in a delusion and is in for a slap in the face by reality. But I dont think everyone thinks that, and IMO one can achieve the stability and make new history with the new person.

 

Hi ((((Cyra)))) Hope you're doing OK today?

 

As I just replied to Elaine, this again illustrates a key difference between a MM and an OW in an affair. Just as you crave for normality, he probably wants to keep it in the heart-stopping, all consuming crazy fantasy love stage. After all, if he wanted normal, he presumably wouldn't have strayed from his marriage.

 

Good luck Cyra

[MidnightBlue1980]

Thank you so much Only! And for all the other posters that commented on my post from last night - I was quite overwhelmed this morning when I found the comments. I'm glad that it spoke to some members here!

 

I'm also sorry to have rambled, hijacked the thread somewhat and taken it off topic. As it sparked a response, if the moderators don't mind, I may copy sections of it and start a "Why I stayed" type of thread on the infidelity forum.

 

Only, and others in your position, I truly hope you manage to move on and be happy soon. There is a bright future out there once you get past this horror. You will have learned so much about life through this - a very hard way to learn lessons, but it will set you up well for the rest of your life.

 

I wish you all the very best and know we are here for you. Please keep posting!

 

You can start a post but they don't like when you copy parts without a link.

 

I hijack the thread all the time.

 

It's like an AA room to me. It does help me keep it in perspective.

[Cyra]

Jenkins, I am ok thank you. Getting through the day, one step at the time. How are you?

 

 

After all, if he wanted normal, he presumably wouldn't have strayed from his marriage.

 

I see the point but there are various stages of 'normal'. Normal with someone you deeply love, normal with someone who is more like a roommate or friend, normal with someone who you just co-exist with for other purposes (kids, money etc.)

 

So yes, I wanted the 1st kind of normal with my ex. He settled for the 3rd kind and made it even worse for himself after he disclosed to all his family and left. So good luck to him, Im sure his 'normal' is just peachy.

[elaine567]

I see the point but there are various stages of 'normal'. Normal with someone you deeply love, normal with someone who is more like a roommate or friend, normal with someone who you just co-exist with for other purposes (kids, money etc.)

 

So yes, I wanted the 1st kind of normal with my ex. He settled for the 3rd kind and made it even worse for himself after he disclosed to all his family and left. So good luck to him, Im sure his 'normal' is just peachy.

 

But he didn't enter the relationship with you for "normality", he entered it because you were a lot younger, his student, the forbidden fruit, his mistress, his sex toy, his fantasy...

 

Once you turned into wanting to be Mrs Professor Mark 2, he was not interested any more, he already had a Mrs Professor Mark 1, who no doubt fits the role very well. He realised he didn't need a Mark 2 version. so turned on his heel and went back to "normality".

No doubt he will be looking around for another "mistress", once the dust settles or he may be back knocking on your door, or he may have learned his lesson - the grass ain't always greener.

[Cyra]

Once you turned into wanting to be Mrs Professor Mark 2, he was not interested any more, he already had a Mrs Professor Mark 1, who no doubt fits the role very well. He realised he didn't need a Mark 2 version. so turned on his heel and went back to "normality".

 

He sure did, but do you not agree that he went about it in a really stupid way? If he wanted to stay with Mark 2, he should have just dumped me and not tell everyone in his family that he loved me and was leaving to be with me. But since he did and then returned, it is like he irreversibly damaged all his relationships for nothing.

Not that it is my problem anymore of course, just speculating.

[Midwestmissy]

Cyra, I think it's part of the lying they tell themselves. He was headed down the path with you and needed to justify it. They don't want to admit that the marriage is what they want, it makes them look bad for cheating. Who has an affair to blow up and leave a decent marriage? Morons. And cheaters don't care about being viewed as cheaters, but man they flip out if they're viewed as morons or possessors of lousy judgement. It makes no sense at all. But I feel like it's a result of the self talk chatter that occupies their heads. Every bad decision has to have a good reason until they end up more unhappy and messed up than they started. Some people can keep it up forever. It's a horrible character flaw.

[aileD]

I disagree with all this and I think your logic is flawed. I understand you have to believe this because you want your marriage and you need to justify to yourself why it is okay to stay with someone who has cheated on you with multiple other women and who in your own words - 'did not return to you because of love.' I followed your thread so I am aware he was living in a car with a 20 year old. I would assume he returned because he liked living in his house like a normal person without all the drama. This is not a 'deeper form of love'. It's certainly not self love by any means.

 

You know, there are no awards at the end of life for sticking it out in a sh*tty marriage. If you look at the threads on the other board, there are many people like yourself who did exactly what you are doing - and then they wake up 20 years from now and walk out. To stay with someone who you already know is not with you out of love is self sabotage and will destroy your self esteem and self worth.

 

Do you have kids? They will emulate you. Would you want them settling for someone who repeatedly cheats on them, acting like staying in a bad marriage is some kind of crusade for mankind? There is no greater good being served here, it's just you sticking it out because you feel you should.

 

If I recall you are 40. You write like you are 65. You are younger than me, I am 44. You could live another 50 years. Is this the way you want to spend them?

 

I'm actually trying to help but also maybe I want to light your fire. I want to see you get mad at a man who left you to go live in a car with a 20 year old and who does not even pretend to be back because you are the great love of his life. I want you to see that you deserve better. You tell all the OW that they deserve better. Don't you?

 

 

I disagree.

[elaine567]

He sure did, but do you not agree that he went about it in a really stupid way? If he wanted to stay with Mark 2, he should have just dumped me and not tell everyone in his family that he loved me and was leaving to be with me. But since he did and then returned, it is like he irreversibly damaged all his relationships for nothing.

Not that it is my problem anymore of course, just speculating.

 

May be he felt he needed them to tell him to stop and jolt him out of his fantasy, or he needed to offload his guilt, or he WAS going to walk away completely forever and just changed his mind.

Who knows? Who cares? He did what he did and I am sure he did you an immense favour by going back home.

Six kids and an angry upset wife, criticising and interfering forever and ever, sounds like hell...

[Cloudcuckoo]

It is also an abdication of responsibility too and conflict avoidance, "I can't leave because I am not allowed to", "I can't talk to you as my wife would not be happy about it",

Instead of saying "This was just a bit of fun and I cannot leave as I DON'T WANT TO." or "This is over, so there is absolutely NO need to talk any more."

 

MY wife won't let me, tends to make the OW think he truly loves me but he cannot show it, due to his harridan of a wife ruling the roost. "Poor man, I can give him all the love she cannot..." and so she sticks in there hoping against hope.

Whereas if he said, "It is over, I never want to leave my wife. Good bye, have a nice life," then it would give so many OWs some sort of closure.

BUT the truth is many MM do not want final closure, they want continued sexual access in case an opportunity arises in the future, or they love the ego boost of a besotted woman wanting them, so they just keep stringing the OW along with platitudes and excuses.

 

 

Absolutely Elaine, and sometimes their ego is so skewed that they can't bear the thought that ANYONE, including the other woman, would think badly of them...you know, see that snake with its skin shed..oh no no no...

[Southern Sun]

Statistics don't support this theory, mostly its simply pillow talk. Roughly 17% of MOW leave the marriage for AP roughly 3/4 of that attempt to return to the marriage within a year. Less then 9% of MM leave to be with AP. It simply very rarely happens. I think to AP it's not REALLY future faking in the moment, when they are physically together. It's when apart and the totality of the situation is in view that they waffle, and ultimately decided to not leave. I think that both AP's understand that the future is unrealistic. It's the reason for the holding pattern by MOW, so if the marriage is so bad, and so unwanted then MM leaving or staying shouldn't impact the mw decision to leave.

 

I see a huge difference in OW and MOW, MOW are every bit as bad as MM. In some cases worse. MM mostly have no intention on uprooting the family, while MW are honestly only thinking of themselves, not their children or MM children. Many use flawed logic and believe that because it's better for them that it's better for everyone involved. So if we were checking boxes MOW would come out ahead on the "oh that's ***ked up meter".

 

Getting back to the original question asked - I am going to disagree here.

 

First, your stats do represent a significant difference between the behavior of MW and MM. The point made about MW trying to return to the marriage...it should be clarified as to WHY they do (do the MM they left for also ditch?).

 

I can see in practice MW getting 'buyer's remorse' after realizing the giant decisions they've undertaken after the fact. But let's make sure we are representing the facts correctly. Apples to apples, MW tend to fall in love more often and try to change their primary relationship rather than keep both. Not all the time, but more often.

 

Which leads to the second point...I don't know how it's better for a MM to cake-eat. Sure, you can make a moral judgement and say, well, at least he didn't uproot the kids! Look, both behaviors are reprehensible. But MW are not worse because they don't want to keep having it both ways and keep their BH in the dark.

 

MY opinion and MY experience...I do not feel I used xMM (until maybe later...but that was related to my fear and anxiety about reconciling my M and using the A to soothe), but I do feel he used me. I think he was a lot more calculated and I was taken for a ride. I was very uncomfortable cake-eating and it actually drove such a wedge between me and my husband that we grew THIS close to divorce. MM would have happily kept me in his pocket for years, sucking the life out of me, if I let him. He lied about his feelings to keep me around. It's gross.

 

I'm just glad I figured it out before it was too late for me to save my family and reconcile with my BH. Jenkins...what you said hit my heart.

[aileD]

Whereas if he said, "It is over, I never want to leave my wife. Good bye, have a nice life," then it would give so many OWs some sort of closure.

 

Agree. Most goodbye letters leave a lot of hope for the OW that MM will be back

[imperfectangel]

I don't agree with statistics where do they even get them from?! No ones ever asked me or my mm to take part in a poll

[Chica80]

Back to the original question.....

 

What "benefit" did you get or do you get out of being in an A? This can be a negative benefit or a positive benefit. As a OW/OM MM.

 

Affairs by nature I believe can be a bad coping mechanism much like alcohol or drugs.

 

A few years back I was in an intensive outpatient therapy program for depressive/mood disorders. In one of our group sessions the therapist asked someone in my group (who had gone through this program now a third time)

What benefit do you get by being depressed? It sounds like a ridiculous question. Who wants to be depressed. But in essence there was something that kept bringing her back. Because there was some "benefits" to staying depressed and not getting healthier.

 

So why did you stay?

Come back?

Or continue the A?

 

Please only response to this topic and these questions.....