Two married couples in a friends with benefits situation?

[Sinderdawlee]

Hello all.

 

I have found myself in a complicated situation and I don't know where to turn for support, so I came here, hoping to find others that may have had / are going through similar experiences.

 

First, some back story.

 

My husband and I have been in a purely monogamous relationship for 8 years, married for 3 of those years. My husband is a good person. He has high morals and treats me extremely well. Until the past year or so, he has been strictly monogamous and has always presented himself as being strictly monogamous. He also has a very limited sexual history, having had only one serious girlfriend prior to me. I am four years older than him and while I'm certainly not a "girl gone wild", I have had a few experiences before meeting him that really genuinely used to bother him. I've had two MMF experiences with past boyfriends / male friends in the past and he hated the idea of involving other people in our love life. Although the experiences were enjoyable at the time, they were one-time-deals and I've had no real interest in partaking in those sorts of acts again.

 

Fast forward to about a year or two ago, he started to show more of an interest in including a third party in our relationship, a male, specifically. My husband isn't gay, but has become open to the idea of watching me be pleasured by another male. Obviously this idea has taken some getting used to, and for a long time I was convinced he was trying to trap me into admitting I wanted sex with other men that weren't him. Thankfully this wasn't the case, and we have indulged in some fantasies, but we've never physically been involved with any other parties. (An important side note, these fantasies are largely his. I partake in them because I love him and I want him to be happy, and these fantasies are only a turn on to me because they are a turn on to him.)

 

Well, this is where things start to get messy...

 

We've been close friends with another married couple for about two years, and about a month and a half ago, the female in that couple admitted to having a crush on my husband and I. (I will change her name to Jennifer for anonymity's sake.) When she first revealed this, my husband and I were extremely flattered but unsure of what the next steps were. I also wasn't used to the idea of another woman openly admitting to attraction for my husband. I wasn't completely opposed to it, because Jennifer is a very close friend and I trust her. But it struck me as...odd.

 

Ultimately, the four of us have decided to partake in a sexual relationship with one another, but I am starting to regret it. For starters, I have deep seated insecurities that I thought I had gotten over that have started to resurface. I used to trust my husband whole-heartedly to be faithful to me and only me, but I now worry that Jennifer will capture his interest more than me due to his limited sexual past and the fact that he never really went through an "experimentation" phase. Also, the four of us have very different approaches to how we want this to be handled. My husband and Jennifer feel that we should be allowed to flirt and cuddle with each other whenever we want to, and I feel that we should try to preserve our friendship as much as possible but allow for the occasional "sexcapade". In other words, I am NOT okay with cuddling and flirting all the time, because at that point, doesn't that make them more like relationship partners more than friends? I am okay with sex with them once in awhile, but I don't want it to be an all the time thing. My husband and Jennifer seem to want this to be an all the time thing. Jennifer's husband (I will name him Jim for now), says he doesn't care either way and will accept any approach.

 

I am really lost on what to do. The fact that my husband and Jennifer both have the exact same view on how this should be handled does not help my insecurities at all. But then I wonder, if I'm the only one being insecure, then doesn't that make me the problem? Should I just go along with it even though every fiber of my being is screaming at me that this is a bad idea? My husband says he's upset that I don't trust him, and that if I trusted him, I would be okay with us having this sort of "extended relationship" with our friends. He says he doesn't like my approach because he has to "care about people in order to have sex with them" and that if we don't facilitate that sort of caring by flirting and cuddling, that it would make sex too difficult for him.

 

I sort of want to call the whole thing off, and Jim has said he would respect that decision. But my husband openly said that if I decided to completely end it, he would be very disappointed in me. He thinks my insecurities can be "resolved" and is pushing me to see a doctor because he thinks my insecurities are being exacerbated by a hormonal imbalance, which MAY be true, but at the same time, I don't think a hormonal imbalance is the cause...so those insecurities will still be there, regardless. Am I being paranoid and irrational by being worried that he'll leave me for Jennifer? Or is he being unfair by asking me to go along with something I'm no longer comfortable with?

[Friskyone4u]

Messy situation is an understatement.

 

But you should NOT do what you are not comfortable with. If your husband bothered to do any reading on what he is getting himself into, he might re-evaluate.

 

Even swinger "veterans" will tell you that you have to be "all in" and on the same page or you are more likely to end up divorced than you are happily involved with other partners.

 

Let him be "disappointed" at not getting his way.

[BluesPower]

You have to be on the same page...

 

So you and hubby have to really talk and communicate about this.

 

Is the sex good with her husband?

 

What about swinging with some other couples?

 

OldShirt knows a lot about this and he will probably chime in soon.

 

But you and hubby have to be on the same page. I will say that from what you are writing I am not sure that you should be insecure but that is just a guess?

[JewelD]

This clearly isn't going to work for you so you should tell your husband.

 

But the flirting and cuddling when not in a sexual encounter seems more like an open marriage type of deal. If you guys all flirt and cuddle all the time, then certainly it would seem permissible for your husband and Jennifer to be flirting and cuddling and maybe having sex when you're not around.

 

But even if you tell your husband you're not into it, I would still keep a very close eye on Jennifer.

[central]

Even veteran swingers may have misgivings in the beginning, including insecurities, jealousy, fear, etc. They learn that - usually, and mostly - these are just what the labels imply, and are not the reality. They learn to get over these concerns, and enjoy the experience for what it is, and without ulterior issues. Again, usually and mostly! Some don't adapt, and need to stop, and if they've given it time and a sincere try (if they ever even get so far as trying, which you have), then their spouse needs to accept that and let it go. It may not be easy, but they need to choose which relationship(s) matter to them long term. Swinging isn't long term or deep (if it is, you're probably in the realm of polyamory). He has different needs than you do - the question is, does this mean he's getting inappropriately attached, or is it just the mode he needs to have a sexual relationship without it feeling cheap? This is something you'll have to explore with him in depth, to reach a decision you can both support. It may take some time to figure it out, though - we don't always know our own minds until we really begin to examine them.

 

For us, flirting, cuddling, affection has normally been part of our swinging experience - but, in no way does that equate to love. It is only sincere caring for someone who is sharing a great experience, not simply a mechanical one. Ideally, you are happy for the pleasure you spouse experiences, and they are happy for you to have the same - all the while it does not diminish or interfere with your own love and intimacy.

[Sinderdawlee]

Thank you all for your responses. I have not had sex with her husband yet and she has not had sex with mine, for now it has been oral stuff and the like. I don't know if I can go through with actual sex but I feel like I'm being pushed to do it, and it's the pushing me to do it part that's really bothering me.

 

 

What's frustrating is I am on board with this sometimes and not others. When we had our first and only encounter, I was completely fine with it at the time because A) Alcohol was involved and B) I was at a point in my cycle where I was very interested in sex and feeling more confident. I have been coming down from that high and then the fear and doubt came flooding in. My mood is very much influenced by my cycle; when I am ovulating or close to it, I am much more open-minded and completely interested with all manners of sex. As I draw closer to my period, any small doubt I have about a situation magnifies times 1000. I suspect I have a hormonal imbalance as my husband suggested, or PMDD (basically an extreme version of PMS), because I do not feel paranoid all the time. So in general for my own health, I do think I should see a doctor. I just don't like that my husband seems to be framing this as though seeing a doctor will magically "fix me".

 

I don't believe my husband only wants this for his own benefit. He is largely interested in seeing me interact with Jennifer and Jim more. He says he enjoys seeing me confident and sexual more than anything else. So I don't want to completely call this off....I just don't see why we can't limit this to times around my ovulation, when I am naturally interested in such things and there are no issues (we are being safe, as an FYI). Also, I should also state that Jennifer is interested in me, too, not just my husband. I don't necessarily "distrust" anyone, I just know these situations can become complicated if people aren't careful and I am altogether too fixated on that, I think.

[Sinderdawlee]

Thank you for your reply as well, central, it came in as I was typing my previous response. I think your approach closely matches my husband's. I wish I could accept flirting and cuddling as a non-intimate thing, but to me, cuddling is more intimate than sex. I've always felt this should be reserved for couples, and oddly I had a much more difficult time watching Jennifer flirt with / cuddle with my husband than I did watching her perform oral on him. (In fact, I helped her with the latter.)

 

I think the biggest issue here is less about whether the parties involved are trustworthy, because really, I think they are, I just get in negative mindsets sometimes and it has nothing to do with the actual people involved. The real issue is the two different approaches to this situation and how different they are. I don't know if there is a "right" or a "wrong" way, but my husband seems unwilling to budge on his own stance, even though I am the person that is struggling to be comfortable. Am I being completely unfair in wanting to limit our experiences with Jennifer and Jim? I have a hard time not viewing constant cuddling / flirting with them as a second relationship, and I do not want a second relationship. I can handle sex only but I know for a fact I can't handle a polyamory situation.

[Methodical]

This can be a slippery slope, even when both ppl (you and hubs) are onboard and on the same page. Presently, you have differences of opinions and that needs to be resolved; otherwise, moving forward is a recipe for disaster to the core relationship, which is your marriage.

 

You want to spice up your sex life w/o emotional involvement. Hubs wants a physical and emotional connection, and unless I'm reading more into your post, he also wants the freedom to come and go at will. Given your feelings and insecurities, put the extra-curricular activities on hold until you reach a mutual compromise.

[central]

If you continue, I strongly suggest that ALL of your encounters are mutual - no playing independently or separately - at least until you are completely sure this works and is within your comfort zone. We eventually got to the point that with some partners, we'd play alone or independently, as suited us. I had a single woman FWB for several years, and we'd play alone, but the three of us would often socialize together. My wife had an intermittent playmate who was the husband of one of the couples we saw now and then, but she mostly wanted threesomes with me and him, and the four of us would socialize occasionally. Basically, it's whatever works for you and is comfortable for all of you. Being truly secure in your core relationship is really the key to being comfortable with other options. Obviously, we've been doing this for many years without any problems - we'd stop some or all of this if there were problems. A little discomfort now and then we can work through, though.

[Methodical]

Also, I should also state that Jennifer is interested in me, too, not just my husband. I don't necessarily "distrust" anyone, I just know these situations can become complicated if people aren't careful and I am altogether too fixated on that, I think.

 

I just saw this. Have you had sexual relations with another woman? That could be a game changer in a very positive way for you! Would hubs be okay with you and Jennifer having at it whenever, wherever, whether he is present or not? How do you feel about that?

[xxoo]

I don't know if there is a "right" or a "wrong" way, but my husband seems unwilling to budge on his own stance, even though I am the person that is struggling to be comfortable. Am I being completely unfair in wanting to limit our experiences with Jennifer and Jim? I have a hard time not viewing constant cuddling / flirting with them as a second relationship, and I do not want a second relationship. I can handle sex only but I know for a fact I can't handle a polyamory situation.

 

He wants what he wants, and your discomfort is an obstacle.

 

He's being selfish on this point, disregarding your feelings.

 

Are you sure that there isn't anything going on between your husband and Jennifer, and the poly thing is a vehicle for them to express that?

[hestheone66]

sounds like your H maybe having an affair with Jennifer and is seeking a way to legitimate their contact.

[jen1447]

I'll echo what others have said (and I'm a practitioner of ORs) - this needs to be an all-in thing, and the fact that you have doubts is enough to at least table it for now until they're resolved.

 

It's kinda curious that you're the one who has experience with this and your hubs doesn't, but now he wants it and you don't, just in terms of the fact that familiarity usually makes us comfy. This should be more a scary prospect for him than you.

 

I have to say I am kind of curious as to why he's suddenly a big fan of this ....it does sound a bit suspicious that maybe sth's going on w 'Jennifer' already. Either that or he just suddenly realized his cuck urges etc.

[VeveCakes]

sounds like your H maybe having an affair with Jennifer and is seeking a way to legitimate their contact.

 

My thoughts exactly...

 

You have two totally different views and end goals here....I don't think it's going to work.

 

I would maybe look to a couple you aren't friends with if you still want to experiment.

[Sinderdawlee]

Thank you all for your insight.

 

I feel a need to clarify and I apologize for not explaining this properly in my original post. I do not think anything is happening on the side with my husband and Jennifer. We all have full disclosure for anything that is said between respective parties, and we communicate often on the conversations we have with the other married couple.

 

Jennifer is my friend before she is my husband's. We talk all the time, and she has expressed a high interest in me as well as my husband. She isn't a homewrecker...she is a good person and her heart belongs solely to Jim. I have zero doubts about that. Neither she nor my husband have given me any reason to suspect they are doing anything unsavory, it is simply my own insecurities coming into play.

 

I firmly believe my husband's disappointment is less about him not having his way with Jennifer, and more a disappointment in my "lack of trust". He has actually been strongly pressing for more interaction between me and Jennifer, and also Jim. He wants me to be comfortable in expressing my sexuality. He has said consistently that his favorite part of our interaction with the other married couple is "how into it I was" at the time. I often teeter between two extremes...feeling very confident in myself and my sexuality, and feeling very self-conscious and unsure of my worth. He feels our interaction with the other married couple brought out my sex-positive side and he wants to see more of that.

 

My husband is not a selfish person. However, he does have a habit of pressing things that he "thinks" will make me happy, even when they don't always. Having seen my response to being sexual with the other married couple the first time, he thinks he needs to press for that ALL the time, even though I am not into it all the time. That is where the problem lies.

 

Also, someone mentioned it was odd that I have experience with multiple partner sex and feel less sure about this situation than my husband, who has no experience. I agree with you! The main reason I brought that up in my original post is because I had my "experimentation phase" already so I'm not as invested in it now, and my husband has not had the experience, so I almost feel like I owe it to him to give him this experience.

 

My experience with multiple partners in the past falls in line with how I feel group sex should be approached now; it should be sex only, once in awhile, and there shouldn't be a ton of flirting or cuddling in-between encounters. I've had two previous encounters, both were a one-time deal with a boyfriend and a male friend. After the encounter, I continued my friendship with the male friend but didn't engage in any sort of sex again. It was spontaneous and spur of the moment.

 

I also feel my distrust of the situation may be because I've never been in a multiple-partner encounter where one of the other parties was female. It has always been a guys only club. It's something that I think I need some getting used to. I have been rejected in the past by other men in favor of other women so I think it's just something I struggle with, even when there is no chance for rejection.

[Sinderdawlee]

To respond to Methodical, I've had interactions with Jennifer myself, yes In fact originally she told me that she would be perfectly happy having only me, but I felt my husband should be involved since he's never had an experience with multiple partners before. My heart was in the right place when I introduced the idea, I'm just not responding as well to the situation as I thought I would.

 

I think my husband would be fine with me doing things with Jennifer on my own, but I would prefer not to. I'd prefer to keep everything as balanced as possible. It's just finding that balance that has been problematic.

[Cephalopod]

Swinging is always a dead end road. I never did it, but I have had friends who partook and it always led to problems in those marriages, even when both spouses are "all in".

 

I would say that you need to put stop to it. Sit him down and tell him you are no longer comfortable with it. Your husband got to experience it, so now he needs to back off and the two of you need to re-connect.

[jen1447]

Are you actually into women at all, specifically Jennifer?

 

Fair enough about your hubs' motivations ....it's just that usually pressure is a tactic applied by someone who's deeply invested, and as a guy w no skin in the game and no experience it's hard to see where his is coming from. Again unless he just somehow recently figured out he's into this (not just getting to bang another chick but sharing his won wife). Normally you'd have seen some inkling of that before now if it was a thing for him as ppl don't often hide their core impulses well.

[Cephalopod]

T

I think my husband would be fine with me doing things with Jennifer on my own, but I would prefer not to. I'd prefer to keep everything as balanced as possible. It's just finding that balance that has been problematic.

 

Don't do it. Bad idea.

[Sinderdawlee]

Jen1447, thank you for asking. I've always been attracted to women but have been too shy to act on my attraction. Jennifer isn't my usual "type" but she is generally an attractive person and I have come to see her as attractive. She is the first woman to have a crush on me where I was like, "Hey, awesome!" Husband feels the same way.

 

I totally get what you're saying, and I agree, in most cases, a guy pushing for extramarital interactions with a woman is a big red flag. In my particular case though I really don't think that's what it is. My husband has always prioritized my sexual satisfaction above his own. He knows I've always liked women and sees this as a chance for me to get something I've always wanted, but I don't blame him for also wanting to be a participant.

 

The other reason I don't think this is the case is because until this opportunity presented itself, my husband has only been interested in seeing me with men. If Jennifer had never admitted her attraction, I'm sure we'd still be acting out fantasies of us with another guy. Husband is also interested in seeing me do things with Jim, as well. So yeah...I swear his motivations aren't purely selfish!

[jen1447]

Ok thanks.

 

Hm .....! Well I'd still say the main thing here is to reconcile your insecurity first. Without that this'll just end up a big mess bc there'll be hurt feelings and accusations and all that flying around. So yeah no don't bite on this just yet.

 

I'd suggest you could propose a half-measure to your hubs that might satisfy him for the time being, which would just be that you and Jennifer have a sexual relationship. Women know how to handle each other and if you're such good friends, your communication should be good and a meeting of the minds in terms of rules and intensity should be doable.

 

BUT, that would've sounded better if you were just superficially into her, not like really really into her. Problem there is this, and I know from having been there many times - women are every bit as much of a danger to men as men in terms of stealing them away, both their hearts and sexually. Men usually don't realize this and they get distracted by the "OMG 2 GIRLS!!" turnon, but then when it actually happens butthurt can set in when they see what you do for each other. So then the accusations and hurt feelings get switched around, and suddenly it's tough for you too bc you want to spend all your time w Jennifer.

 

So I suppose it's still best to hold off and explore your feelings first and try to understand what's holding you back so you can master it. If you want we can have that discussion w you as well, and I can even 'sell' you on all the merits of open relationships and women in particular, in the context of a healthy sexual situation, body and mind.

[RecentChange]

My experience with multiple partners in the past falls in line with how I feel group sex should be approached now; it should be sex only, once in awhile, and there shouldn't be a ton of flirting or cuddling in-between encounters. I've had two previous encounters, both were a one-time deal with a boyfriend and a male friend. After the encounter, I continued my friendship with the male friend but didn't engage in any sort of sex again. It was spontaneous and spur of the moment.

.

 

I just have to say, I do not have the experience many here do with swinging etc - but I am 100% with you on this.

 

I have had F*** buddies in the past, and I found it much easier to keep sex, just sex - when you stick to just sex!

 

I don't know how someone would compartmentalize, and keep emotions separate when everyone is so chummy, and close, friends - and now cuddling and flirting?

 

My husband and I have been playing MFM idea - and I would only be comfortable with it as you describe. Basically a ONS type scenario.

 

And even if my husband was wanting some sort of foursome, I would MUCH rather see him have sex with another woman than cuddle one!! One is about hedonism and sex - the other is just way too emotionally tied for my liking.

 

I don't get very jealous about sex - but emotional attachment? That's when I get all possessive - and my husband has expressed the same feelings.

 

This sounds more like a proposed open marriage / polyamory situation than a "F*** buddy" to me.

 

And for ME, I would be open to including an F buddy, but hell no to any sort of polyamory

[oldshirt]

sounds like your H maybe having an affair with Jennifer and is seeking a way to legitimate their contact.

 

People not involved with lifestyle often think that a partner bringing up swinging is a disquised attempt to legitimize a preexisting or a hoped-for affair.

 

I think this is highly unlikely however as it is 1,000 times easier to simply have an affair on the downlow than it is to get two couples onboard to have some kind of swinging experience.

 

If people are trying to organize a couple/couple swinging experience, it is usually legit and not a subtrifuge to cloak an affair.

[oldshirt]

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, I used to be very involved in the swinging lifestyle for a number of years.

 

There are some nuances and some bumps in the road that need to be worked out here, but I don't think it is as complicated and messy as it has been made out to be.

 

I'll start with my primary concern - these are established, traditional friends of yours. That automatically raises the stakes and increases the complexity and the potential problems right off the bat.

 

We were into swinging for several years and have played with multiple dozens of couples and singles and groups. 99% of them were people that we met through the lifestyle and that were already swingers. When we first started swinging one of the first ground rules that we established were that we were going to have complete separation between our swinging playmates and our traditional friends/neighbors/coworkers etc.

 

Friends and coworkers etc were off limits in our bedroom.

 

That 1% occurred a couple years after we were out of the lifestyle. Our best couple friends actually propositioned us (not knowing that we had been in the lifestyle)

 

The four of us discussed it at length and then took an out of state trip together without the kids.

 

We had several encounters over the next couple months that did include full swap.

 

What ended up happening was the other female and I ended up hitting it off like porn stars and my wife and the other H had a failure to launch.

 

The other H basically pulled the plug on everything. He was the one that didn't like the chemistry that the other W and I had and my wife was pretty much neutral and would go along with whatever the group decided.

 

We all respected his wishes and ended the swinging relationship, but were luckily able to preserve the friendship.

 

I have known other couples that brought traditional friends into their bedroom and the friendships suffered or ended.

 

Swinging with friends is a very high risk venture. I have to warn you about the dangers.

 

with friends there is a higher risk of developing actual feelings. There is a higher risk of damaging jealousies and insecurities. There is a higher risk of people hooking up on the downlow without the knowledge and consent of the other parties.

 

Swinging does carry some inherent risks and complexities under the best of circumstances. Swinging with traditional friends magnifies and intensifies those risks.

 

cont.....

[oldshirt]

.....Now that all being said, I don't think this is as complicated and messy as everyone is making it out to be.

 

This is a boundary and condition issue.

 

If you are going to play in the hardball arena of swinging with friends, you are going to have to pull up your big-girl panties and assert your boundaries and conditions and terms under which you will play.

 

- if that means only playing at a certain time during your cycle - so be it. Give everyone a calendar and mark the days you are DTF.

 

- if you are OK with your H and Jenifer getting it on but aren't OK with them cuddling and flirting and making googally eyes at each other like teenagers, then state that clearly and hold them to it.

 

If they have an issue with that and if your H doesn't think he can get his junk hard under those conditions, then he will need to pull his big-boy pants up and decide if he wants to swing or not.

 

- swinging and passively going along with the group to not make waves does not jive. If people are going to play and reap the benefits of swinging (and trust me, there ARE benefits :-D ) then everyone has to lay it all out of the table and state their terms and their limits and their boundaries.

 

Either everyone is all-in and in agreement with each other, or it doesn't happen.

 

From your description, I don't see any true, bright red flags flapping in the wind. It sounds like everyone is reasonably attracted to and comfortable with each other and that no one has any actual moral or ethical qualms with playing with each other in general. This is more of a work still in progress that deals more with boundaries and comfort zones.

 

You aren't comfortable with them cuddling and cooing on each other and you have issues during certain times of the month. Those terms and conditions should be able to be easily accommodated and if they can't, then there may be bigger problems on the horizon.