Two married couples in a friends with benefits situation?

[oldshirt]

here are just a few other random tidbits in no particular order -

 

-swinging is hard work and is very hard to get all 4 people on the same sheet of music.

 

- when people initially have thoughts of inviting others into their bedroom, they almost always get the idea of looking into their current pool of friends and associates because they may already have a comfort or attraction with someone, but it is almost always a bad idea and almost always a much higher degree of complexity and risk.

 

- It is usually a better idea to look for playmates in the swinging community and find people that are already experienced swingers. as Recent Change mentioned above, it's easier to keep things simple and less risk to just keep it at sex. and it's easier to keep it at just sex if there aren't already friendships and other feelings and other relationships already in place.

 

- recreational sex never hurt anyone or ever caused any drama or hurt feelings - it's relationships and feelings that cause drama and problems.

 

- I don't think your H and Jenifer are trying to cloak an affair or would-be affair under the guise of swinging. It's a million times easier and more efficient to just have an affair. If they wanted to have an affair, they would just have one and not try to bring both other spouses into it. Cheating and affairs are about selfishness and entitlement. Cheaters almost universally want their spouses home remaining faithful to them while they are out screwing around. They don't try to get their spouses involved with it too.

 

- I don't see any glaring problems or any true deal breakers here. I see this as a boundary issue and you just haven't established your boundaries thoroughly enough yet. This is still a work in progress. You still have more homework to do here.

[oldshirt]

And finally, I don't see any weirdness or any issue with your husband being interested in this and you being more lassidasical about it.

 

People develop interests in this kind of stuff at their own pace and in their own time regardless of whether they have had any prior experience in it or not.

 

There are lots of people that have been strictly monogamous for many years and have had no interest in any kind of group sex that develop curiosities and interests in it later in life.

 

In some ways it may even be a good sign in that they feel secure and confident enough in their relationship that they feel OK about bringing others into the marital bed.

 

Conversely there are people that had encounters in their wild and single days and now have no interest in revisiting that now that they are in a stable and traditional relationship.

 

Neither one is right and neither one is wrong. It is all about communication and negotiation and working things out to everyone's comfort and agreement.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Sinder, guess you find yourself at the crossroads now. From everything that you have written it seems practically certain that you and your husband are going to have a foray into the swinging lifestyle sooner rather than later. Old shirt has laid out the road map for you very clearly and his words reek of wisdom. You would be well served to pay close attention to what he had to say. Actually for someone on the brink of entering an alternate lifestyle, you are lucky to have someone like OS offer the kind of insight that he has.

 

Oldshirt you mentioned that swinging does have ( tangible) benefits. Can you elaborate on those? I guess a lot of folks on here like me who have'nt the foggiest about alternative lifestyle practices in actual life would be better informed about them. Fact is I have an open mind about such interests and behaviours that other human beings have and although I am and always have been strictly monogamous, I now know that my way is NOT the only way and that human beings being what they are, will likely vary in their habits and choices as widely as the length and breadth of the universe.

[oldshirt]

The benefits I spoke of are the obvious - you get to have a variety of sexual adventures, ie 3somes, 4somes, moresomes, and sex with a variety of other people and have it be something fun and adventure WITH YOUR SPOUSE as opposed to it being something distructive and devastating lie adultery or dissolving a marriage so experience something different.

[Just a Guy]

Thanks Oldshirt, my only concern would be if your spouse found someone else to be better than you in bed and started craving that. Alternatively, if she enjoyed sex with someone else would she then devalue sex with you as in avoiding sex with you or just going through the motions so as not to hurt your feelings or maybe making comparisons between you and her temp lover( at least in her mind).

 

Also, what made you and your spouse give up the lifestyle? Was it because you perceived some danger to your relationship if you continued with it or something else? Thanks in advance.

[oldshirt]

Thanks Oldshirt, my only concern would be if your spouse found someone else to be better than you in bed and started craving that. Alternatively, if she enjoyed sex with someone else would she then devalue sex with you as in avoiding sex with you or just going through the motions so as not to hurt your feelings or maybe making comparisons between you and her temp lover( at least in her mind).

 

Also, what made you and your spouse give up the lifestyle? Was it because you perceived some danger to your relationship if you continued with it or something else? Thanks in advance.

 

The things you mentioned are a risk.

 

It's like any other pursuit, there are risks. Like any other pursuit that has risks, you are responsible for knowing the hazards and taking the proper steps to mitigate them. You have to bring your A-game and be in tune with your partner and be the best partner you can be.

 

If you are fat and lazy and don't lift a finger to be a good lover to your spouse, someone else will be glad to take your place.

[Just a Guy]

Hi OldShirt, guess that's very true. However, I would think one would have to keep one's eyes and ears open to discern any nuances of feelings developing for the temp lover and/or loss of connection between one's spouse and oneself. The same would be true for oneself and one's temp lover. I would think both spouses would have to be vigilant about where one's feelings were and even if it involved oneself and the temp lover, it would be incumbent on oneself to call a halt( much as it may be against one's wishes). I should think any such adventure would imply a deep and abiding commitment to one's spouse which would obviate any superficial stirrings of emotion for a temp lover by either party. In the case of the female of the couple who may be involved with a singleton male who may be very eligible and charming, both she and the husband would have to remain on constant alert and in constant communication to avoid any unforsren misadventure. Trust would have to be at an all time high. Pretty demanding if you ask me and I guess one of the reasons this may not be a 'fit all sizes' situation.

 

Thanks for elucidating.

[oldshirt]

As far as our current activity in the lifestyle, we were very active and invloved for over a half dozen years but for the last few years we occasionally will go to some friend's parties and we have had a couple fun experiences this past summer but we no longer consider ourselves active swingers.

 

If the stars all line up perfect and a perfect opportunity presents itself, we may take it. But it is no longer something that we actively pursue.

 

Swinging is actually a lot of work and effort. We have simply gotten too old and lazy to keep at it consistently.

 

Menopause has taken a huge toll on Mrs Old's libido and confidence and it is just not really on her radar anymore.

 

I miss it. But not enough to make much of a fuss about it anymore.

 

I am mostly an armchair swinger and Monday-morning quarterback on swinging matters these days.

[oldshirt]

Hi OldShirt, guess that's very true. However, I would think one would have to keep one's eyes and ears open to discern any nuances of feelings developing for the temp lover and/or loss of connection between one's spouse and oneself. The same would be true for oneself and one's temp lover. I would think both spouses would have to be vigilant about where one's feelings were and even if it involved oneself and the temp lover, it would be incumbent on oneself to call a halt( much as it may be against one's wishes). I should think any such adventure would imply a deep and abiding commitment to one's spouse which would obviate any superficial stirrings of emotion for a temp lover by either party. In the case of the female of the couple who may be involved with a singleton male who may be very eligible and charming, both she and the husband would have to remain on constant alert and in constant communication to avoid any unforsren misadventure. Trust would have to be at an all time high. Pretty demanding if you ask me and I guess one of the reasons this may not be a 'fit all sizes' situation.

 

Thanks for elucidating.

 

There is truth to that.

 

But the same is true with coworkers and neighbors and any other that come into our lives.

 

A swinging encounter that occurs with your spouse really poses no more and no less of a threat than an attractive, charming person at the office.

 

Swinging does certain risks to relationships.

 

So does exclusivity.

 

Both take work and effort. Both involve some sacrifice and both involve risk.

 

Boredom and apathy and emotional disconnection and taking your spouse for granted and letting yourself go physically are every bit as dangerous and risky to a marriage as the fun and excitement and adventure of swinging.

 

When we were having our initial discussions and werenweughing the pros and cons of swinging, I realized my wife could fall for someone at work just as readily as for a swinging playmate.

 

In other words 'not swinging' would afford me virtually no additional assurance of her not falling for someone else, so I figured I might as well enjoy the fun and benefits of swinging and take my chances.

[RecentChange]

I am curious Old Shirt - what is the latest represented demographic in the swinging community?

 

I have a hunch it tends to be 35+ is that true?

 

If you asked me when I was 23 if I would be interested in a variety of activities I am today - I would have said no way!

 

I think doing this successfully takes a level of maturity, commitment, experience, knowing yourself and your partner that only age can bring.

 

For example the concerns about "falling" for a playmate - this is where knowing yourself and your partner comes into play.

 

I have been around the block enough to know how to "set things in a box" and guard my emotions. Falling for someone doesn't just happen - as much as the OW/OM board may protest - it's an absolute choice.

 

It's recognizing when your mind starts leading you down the wrong path and stopping it. It's a conscious choice to not entertain certain thoughts. It's being resilient to certain temptations - because let's face it. Not only are physical pleasure enjoyable, but emotional ones are as well. So you have to choose as to which ones you will indulge in, and which ones you won't.

 

And this takes knowing yourself, and what you are capable of.

 

I think my husband is seemingly increasingly interested in this idea - because he trusts me to do this.

 

For us at least, sharing physical pleasure sounds appealing, but sharing emotional connections with others does not.

[oldshirt]

I am curious Old Shirt - what is the latest represented demographic in the swinging community?

 

I have a hunch it tends to be 35+ is that true?

 

If you asked me when I was 23 if I would be interested in a variety of activities I am today - I would have said no way!

 

I think doing this successfully takes a level of maturity, commitment, experience, knowing yourself and your partner

 

I don't know what the actual stats are but from the people we encounter in the lifestyle I would say most were in the 40-65 age range.

 

There definately were some 20-something's but they didn't stick around long and most of them weren't actual married couple with kids and families etc. most were just basically FWBs that were looking for other chicks for FMFs and once they got to the clubs and saw all the 45 year old couples, they went back to the regular dance clubs and gyms etc.

 

As you mentioned, the mind, mentality and objectives of swingers are totally different than singles in their 20s.

 

The typical swinger has been married 15+ years, fully employed, has a home and a family and the kids are about grown.

 

The relationship is stable and the communication and trust are there.

 

With a middle aged, long- term married couple with teenagers, what is gone is a lot of the "fear" of sexuality. You figure out a lot of th fear of sex that has been instilled in you is all mostly BS. You have reliable birth control or have been surgically sterilized so you don't fear pregnancy. You have a stable, long term mate so you don't fear rejection or fear someone "using" you or breaking your heart or cutting you up into pieces and burying you in a crawlspace. You have health insurance so you really don't let the fear of STDs keep you barricaded in the basement.

 

And you really don't fear your spouse finding someone better and leaving you because you are right there and can see with your own eyes that the other people don't do it as well as you can.

 

Swingers have basically lost the fear of sexuality that society and religion and sex education have instilled in you.

 

You wake up one day and realize it's all bull crap and that you want to go out and have some extra fun before you are too old and too fat and too lazy.

 

One day you realize you spouse could leave you for someone at the office just as readily and if they leave, life goes on and you move on whether you swing or not so why not just have the extra fun.

 

If you get an STD, you go to the Dr and it's covered under your health plan.

 

I'm not saying people are reckless or irresponsible. There are risks and there are hazards. But those risks and hazards can be managed and mitigated and most of what people spout off about are fear tactics based on their own fears that are holding them back.

 

When I was in my 20s, I worried about everything and was afraid of everything. Once I was in my 40s and had been married for 10+ years, had kids and had my plumbing disconnected, sexuality was no longer one of the things I feared.

[elaine567]

One problem that I see here, is that you are really not into this.

You had your "wild days" and now you do not really want to repeat them. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Now not only are you not that interested, you are being railroaded by your husband and by your sense of duty into doing it "for him" as you "owe" him, as he has not had the experience you had. You don't actually "owe" him anything.

 

Add to all that, your friend Jennifer has a crush on your husband and is ganging up with him, to make this not just about specifically defined "sex" encounters, but about flirting, kissing and cuddling and developing a "caring" relationship, which to me sounds like "they" want to conduct an affair under your nose, and with your permission.

 

Meanwhile you are left with the maybe weak, maybe just laid-back "Jim", who I guess does not float your boat.

 

I think you are being a bit naive to think your "best friend" Jennifer would never do anything to hurt you.

Plenty "best friends" have done the dirty and sneaked off with the husband, so be very wary. She has signalled her intent by saying she has a crush, and no doubt your husband is extremely flattered by her interest. That to me suggests an accident waiting to happen.

(btw moaning about "lack of trust" when confronted, is straight out of the cheater's handbook I am sorry to say.) He is just saying that to manipulate you into doing this.

 

You say that every fibre of your being is screaming that this is a bad idea, I think you would be best to listen.

[oldshirt]

One problem that I see here, is that you are really not into this.

You had your "wild days" and now you do not really want to repeat them. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Now not only are you not that interested, you are being railroaded by your husband and by your sense of duty into doing it "for him" as you "owe" him, as he has not had the experience you had. You don't actually "owe" him anything.

 

Add to all that, your friend Jennifer has a crush on your husband and is ganging up with him, to make this not just about specifically defined "sex" encounters, but about flirting, kissing and cuddling and developing a "caring" relationship, which to me sounds like "they" want to conduct an affair under your nose, and with your permission.

 

Meanwhile you are left with the maybe weak, maybe just laid-back "Jim", who I guess does not float your boat.

 

I think you are being a bit naive to think your "best friend" Jennifer would never do anything to hurt you.

Plenty "best friends" have done the dirty and sneaked off with the husband, so be very wary. She has signalled her intent by saying she has a crush, and no doubt your husband is extremely flattered by her interest. That to me suggests an accident waiting to happen.

(btw moaning about "lack of trust" when confronted, is straight out of the cheater's handbook I am sorry to say.) He is just saying that to manipulate you into doing this.

 

You say that every fibre of your being is screaming that this is a bad idea, I think you would be best to listen.

 

I went back and read all of Sinder's posts again to see if I had missed any key piece(s) of information.

 

I still think this is a comfort and boundary issue and not an "I-don't-want-to-swing" issue.

 

I don't think Mr Sinder and Jenifer are trying to manipulate her to have an affair under nose. If they wanted an affair, it would be much easier and likely a lot more fun to just have an affair and do what they want on their own without trying to get her buy-in.

 

Yes they definately have an attraction and desire between them. But they have been open and honest about it and have been openly seeking a mechanism to do it with everyone's approval and participation.

 

We have to remember that Sinder herself was an active and enthusiastic participant in the first encounter. As she has stated several times, it is not the sex she has an issue with, it is the flirting and the affection the googally eyes.

 

She has also indicated her own cyclic insecurities that is making this unsettling for her at specific times, while being ok with it at other times.

 

This IMHO make this a boundary and comfort issue and not a relationship issue or a concept or moral issue.

 

That doesn't mean that everything is ok or that she needs to suck it up, pipe down and go along with it. That would spell disaster.

 

IMHO she needs to do the opposite and assert her boundaries in no uncertain terms and spell out exactly what her terms and conditions would be for her to be ok with this and for her to be a willing participant.

 

If the others can't or won't comply with her terms, then the deal is off the table and that is the end of that. And if there is any activity taking place under the table without her knowledge and consent, it will be considered adultery and betrayal and will be treated as such.

[Sinderdawlee]

Sorry I have not responded to this in a few days. I really enjoyed reading all of the responses. It means a lot to get so many people with so many points of view offering different ways of approaching this.

 

I have to say, I think oldshirt got it right. Everything you said pretty much explains my situation perfectly. I appreciate you referencing your own experience with the swinging lifestyle as well, it made it easier to relate to what you were saying and I feel I can trust your judgment on the matter.

 

At this point, I do feel that you are right about swinging with friends being dangerous. This whole situation has been causing me so much grief. Hubs and I have argued every day this week and it causing some serious strain on our relationship. He's trying to find ways to convince me that "his way" is the only way we can do this, and I'm just not comfortable with his approach. I've had FWB situations go awry in the past and I would like to reduce the risk of that happening at all costs. The way he wants to do things, I personally feel increases that risk, especially given these are already such close friends of ours.

 

I've been conversing with Jennifer's husband Jim, who has remained mostly untalked about in this scenario, because honestly he has kind of been giving the impression that he doesn't really care what happens. But after some deep talks, he seems to agree with me on this and was really hoping for just a brief fling once in awhile without all the extra baggage. It is such a relief to know I'm not alone in my feelings about this. Unfortunately, it still puts us at odds with my husband and Jennifer's views on the subject.

 

Is there any chance at all for some kind of reconciliation or should we just collectively agree to call it quits? My husband has seemed super upset that we may never have relations with them again but I hate arguing with him all the time over how to approach it.

[Poe77]

This clearly isn't going to work for you so you should tell your husband.

 

But the flirting and cuddling when not in a sexual encounter seems more like an open marriage type of deal. If you guys all flirt and cuddle all the time, then certainly it would seem permissible for your husband and Jennifer to be flirting and cuddling and maybe having sex when you're not around.

 

But even if you tell your husband you're not into it, I would still keep a very close eye on Jennifer.

 

I agree with this basically your husband wants to have a open marriage as he wants more then just "sex" he wants a full out "romantic connection" with this other women..OP think about this cuddling hanging out alone flirting and sex that's not swinging far as I know that's having a second gf just about ..your not insecure hes out of line! if he needs another women to fill these rolls in his life then maybe its time to reevaluate your marriage..the fact hes not taking your input in the situation into any serious consideration is not a good sighn..

[Sinderdawlee]

I stand corrected, Jim has declared himself a neutral party but says he "doesn't mind the idea of getting closer to us as a couple", and has suggested exposure therapy to get me used to the idea of everyone cuddling.

 

I'm really starting to feel like a stone wall blockading everyone else's path to happiness right now

[Poe77]

I stand corrected, Jim has declared himself a neutral party but says he "doesn't mind the idea of getting closer to us as a couple", and has suggested exposure therapy to get me used to the idea of my husband and his wife cuddling.

 

I'm really starting to feel like a stone wall blockading everyone else's path to happiness right now

 

 

And what about your own happiness were you not happy before all this carry on? tell them all NO..life will go on keep an eye out..when your husband married you he married YOU not her he dose not NEED to cuddle this women..be strong!..

[road]

And what about your own happiness were you not happy before all this carry on? tell them all NO..life will go on keep an eye out..when your husband married you he married YOU not her he dose not NEED to cuddle this women..be strong!..

 

Tell your husband that real women do not share their men and tell the other couple to get lost. NC time for them.

[elaine567]

So they want you to go to therapy, so that you do not mind seeing your husband flirting and cuddling with another woman??

 

The whole thing hasn't a chance of being one of those swinging arrangements that hurts no-one and no marriages are at risk.

YOU, I guess are already building resentment up against your husband and Jennifer and that isn't going to get any better, when you see the two of them cuddling in the corner and ignoring you completely.

 

Some couples are happy swinging, they are comfortable in their sexuality and their core relationship, and it is a joint venture that suits both.

BUT, your husband is NOT comfortable in his sexuality, I think here your husband's sudden interest is based on "retroactive jealousy" - Google it, and now he has a woman with a "crush" interested in him too.

It is not stable, mature sexuality, it is based on jealousy of your past and trying to get even, with a bit of resentment thrown in for good measure, I guess...

 

Instead of presenting the united couple front and agreeing on the rules of engagement first, and THEN putting forward your views to them, you are now at logger heads and it is Jennifer and your husband who are now the in tune "power couple".

That leaves Jim as the cuckold (probably he likes that) or as the people pleaser trying to make everyone happy, and YOU feeling upset and somewhat ostracised.

That is not how it should work, (unless that is your kink).

 

On another level, Jennifer is now Queen Bee with two enthusiastic drone bees (or maybe even three if we include you), vying for her attention, but where does that leave you?

In your previous encounters you were the Queen Bee, but here it seems your role is to put up and shut up and go to therapy for your "insecurities"...

 

You recognise that the dynamics of this are a recipe for disaster for your marriage, and that is why every fibre of your being is screaming.

[Cephalopod]

They are ganging up on you?

 

Oh hell no! Your husband has no right to strong-arm you like this. Is this the behavior of a man who loves and respects his wife?

 

Go see a lawyer and find out what your rights are as a divorced wife. Take some of the paperwork home and show it to your husband. Show him what he stands to lose if he continues on this course he has plotted.

 

Call up your friends and tell them that if they keep pushing this you will not be friends with them for much longer. Tell them that there are millions of people in the world, and that friends can be replaced.

 

I'm thinking your husband and this other woman have already been sleeping together.

[Sinderdawlee]

I can see this is taking quite a nasty turn, which makes me sad, but I understand why people are coming to the conclusions that they are.

 

I can assure everyone that my husband and Jennifer are in fact not sleeping together. My husband is always home with me when he is not at work. Neither one of them are the kind of people to do that, otherwise they wouldn't be asking for permission.

 

My husband claims that he is not even that attracted to Jennifer in a way where he feels like he "has to have her", but says in general he likes the idea of having friends that we can be closer to as "more than friends". This isn't only about just my husband and Jennifer wanting to have sex. My husband is also attracted to the idea of me being comfortable with both Jennifer and Jim. And Jennifer likes me, too. I feel like people keep making this about my husband and Jennifer only when that is not the case.

 

The problem isn't my husband and Jennifer having sex, or them cheating behind my back, or any of that, I can promise you. The problem is we have conflicting views on the extent of our relationship with them. He and Jennifer want the four of us to essentially be dating each other. Jim was rooting for the occasional sexual encounter initially, but says he doesn't mind the idea of getting closer to us as a couple. Which then leaves me, the odd duck out. That is really the problem. I just feel like I'm ruining everyone else's fun by not simply "going along" with a four-way relationship. And it WOULD be a four-way relationship, it's not just Jennifer and my husband. But I am just not comfortable with getting cuddly with people who are not my husband. I can have sex with them, but I can't do the cuddly, overly personal thing. I hope this clarifies the issue.

[jen1447]

Seems like you should just tell everyone that cuddles are your red line and if they want sex, they can't have cuddles. And if that's not good enough, oh well, deal's off.

 

Are you concerned about what'll happen if you give an ultimatum like that?

[oldshirt]

Seems like you should just tell everyone that cuddles are your red line and if they want sex, they can't have cuddles. And if that's not good enough, oh well, deal's off.

 

Are you concerned about what'll happen if you give an ultimatum like that?

 

Jen and I frequently disagree in these matters, but I am in complete agreement in this instance.

 

Stand firm in your boundaries and conditions and if they can't live with your terms then too bad so sad.

 

I disagree that Jennifer is the Queen bee here.

 

YOU are the Queen Bee that everyone wants and that this whole thing is hinging on. Your Jay-Jay is like the only baseball in the neighborhood and if the other neighborhood kids want to play with your ball, they are gonna hafta play by your rules or your ball doesn't leave your house.

[Sinderdawlee]

Jen1447, essentially yes, I don't want to have to give an ultimatum. All it does is make me look like I'm unreasonable and unwilling to compromise. I'm trying to be as open-minded as I can, but it is difficult on this particular issue. I know the other people in my dilemma (my husband and the other couple) are struggling to understand my point of view, because they don't have the same insecurities and past experiences that I do. I have been apart of FWB situations that have gone too far in the past, and I know they arise when sex starts getting accompanied by behavior that is a little too personal (like cuddling). I also just have never gotten "cozy" with people I'm not in love with. I am actually very hands-off by nature unless I REALLY like someone to feel comfortable broaching that level.

 

Ultimately I spent my formative sexual years learning that sex is just sex and is very impersonal and carnal by nature. I don't believe in "making love", the concept doesn't even register for me. No man has ever showed me real tenderness during sex, it has always just been ****ing, and I've learned to accept that. The only thing that differentiates mindless ****ing and "love" to me is the cuddling that comes before and after. Cuddling, to me, is making love, and is very personal and sacred and something I don't want to share with anyone else.

[jen1447]

Jen1447, essentially yes, I don't want to have to give an ultimatum. All it does is make me look like I'm unreasonable and unwilling to compromise. I'm trying to be as open-minded as I can, but it is difficult on this particular issue. I know the other people in my dilemma (my husband and the other couple) are struggling to understand my point of view, because they don't have the same insecurities and past experiences that I do. I have been apart of FWB situations that have gone too far in the past, and I know they arise when sex starts getting accompanied by behavior that is a little too personal (like cuddling). I also just have never gotten "cozy" with people I'm not in love with. I am actually very hands-off by nature unless I REALLY like someone to feel comfortable broaching that level.

 

Ultimately I spent my formative sexual years learning that sex is just sex and is very impersonal and carnal by nature. I don't believe in "making love", the concept doesn't even register for me. No man has ever showed me real tenderness during sex, it has always just been ****ing, and I've learned to accept that. The only thing that differentiates mindless ****ing and "love" to me is the cuddling that comes before and after. Cuddling, to me, is making love, and is very personal and sacred and something I don't want to share with anyone else.

 

You have no real obligation to explain or justify your sensibilities to anyone, so I wouldn't worry too much about what everyone thinks as far as that goes. I mean, I get that it's a concern for you but philosophically you're solid - it's not like you're only authorized to have opinions when they make sense to someone else, even your hubs. You can think and feel w/e you want.

 

As to your conundrum, it looks pretty clear to me - you don't want to give an ultimatum but not giving an ultimatum puts you in a situation that's unacceptable to you. One of those 2 things has to give bc they can't coexist - either you put your foot down or you just get w the program and jump in bed w them all. There's no middle ground as far as that goes, at least in terms of not "looking unreasonable" and still getting your way.