Two married couples in a friends with benefits situation?

[oldshirt]

 

 

 

My husband claims that he is not even that attracted to Jennifer in a way where he feels like he "has to have her", but says in general he likes the idea of having friends that we can be closer to as "more than friends". This isn't only about just my husband and Jennifer wanting to have sex.

 

 

Ok so if that is the case, then how about tabling the idea of playing with them specifically indefinately and finding another couple(s) already in the lifestyle that you are not traditional friends with and having some experiences without all the drama and complication and risk of getting nakey with your friends?

 

It would be so much simpler and lower risk and less complicated to just go to a swing club and meet a number of couples and see if you click with any of them.

 

Think of it as meeting in the middle.

 

Here's the thing, if your H is sincere and simply wants to experience some group activities and see you with another couple, then he should be ok with that and he should be ok with doing it on your terms and in that venue.

 

If he pouts and whines and stamps his feet and can't compromise even that much, then there are deeper problems here that whether there will be cuddling or not.

[oldshirt]

There's no middle ground as far as that goes, at least in terms of not "looking unreasonable" and still getting your way.

 

Read my post # 51, I think it is a legitimate middle ground.

 

If he simply wants a group experience and to see her getting down with another couple, then he should be cool with that and should see it as a legitimate compromise that meets both their needs.

 

If he pops a cog and jumps up and down whining that it's not fair and is an unreasonable condition and restriction, then there is a bigger problem here than has met the eye thus far.

[Sinderdawlee]

Oldshirt, I do see what you mean about a middle ground. The thing is though, my husband isn't interested in a true "swinging" lifestyle. He's not interested in being with other parties for the sake of just "fun". I think he's explicitly interested in our current friends, because he needs a close connection to people to want to have sex with them, which is the complete opposite of how I feel. And it will be the same for anyone we may have encounters with. They would have to be extremely close to him emotionally for him to feel comfortable with having sex with them.

 

My husband I guess you could say is a romantic by nature. He doesn't like the idea of having sex just for fun. He wants an emotional investment, and in fact needs it to feel secure enough to have sex. I on the other hand, don't want the emotional investment, just the sex. So a middle ground would still be very difficult to establish.

 

Unfortunately I am starting to feel that it's going to have to be an all or nothing approach, and given the increasing frequency of conflict, I'm starting to lean towards the nothing approach. Which is really unfortunate, but as others have said, this lifestyle is not for everyone, especially if you can't get on the same page.

[Cephalopod]

Your thinking is lucid.

 

If I were you i would call the whole thing off. You don't need to feel guilty about it.

[RecentChange]

He's not interested in being with other parties for the sake of just "fun". I think he's explicitly interested in our current friends, because he needs a close connection to people to want to have sex with them, which is the complete opposite of how I feel. And it will be the same for anyone we may have encounters with. They would have to be extremely close to him emotionally for him to feel comfortable with having sex with them.

 

My husband I guess you could say is a romantic by nature. He doesn't like the idea of having sex just for fun. He wants an emotional investment, and in fact needs it to feel secure enough to have sex.

 

Thats not really a FWB arrangement then is it? Again, this points to polyamory - which is fine for some people. NOT for me, and it sounds like not for you.

 

What would keep him from "falling in love" with this woman who he likes, has an emotional tie with - and then deepens all of that with sex?

 

He is already demonstrating that he can't keep sex and emotion separate - why should you trust he would be able to?

 

No way I would be down for this.

[oldshirt]

Oldshirt, I do see what you mean about a middle ground. The thing is though, my husband isn't interested in a true "swinging" lifestyle. He's not interested in being with other parties for the sake of just "fun". I think he's explicitly interested in our current friends, because he needs a close connection to people to want to have sex with them, which is the complete opposite of how I feel. And it will be the same for anyone we may have encounters with. They would have to be extremely close to him emotionally for him to feel comfortable with having sex with them.

 

My husband I guess you could say is a romantic by nature. He doesn't like the idea of having sex just for fun. He wants an emotional investment, and in fact needs it to feel secure enough to have sex. I on the other hand, don't want the emotional investment, just the sex. So a middle ground would still be very difficult to establish.

 

Unfortunately I am starting to feel that it's going to have to be an all or nothing approach, and given the increasing frequency of conflict, I'm starting to lean towards the nothing approach. Which is really unfortunate, but as others have said, this lifestyle is not for everyone, especially if you can't get on the same page.

 

Now you are just making excuses for him.

 

I have no sympathy for him here. In my personal opinion if he doesn't have the giblets, patience and wherewithal to develop enough of a rapport and comfort to have sex with actual swingers then he has no business trying to navigate the minefield and pitfalls of having a sexual relationship with family friends.

 

As I said in my earlier post, getting in bed with family friends is far more complicated and risky than casual play dates with people who aren't traditional friends.

 

This is really a simple equation, if he wants to get nakey-nakey with others, he can either nut-up and abide by your boundaries and your comfort zones, or you two can watch other people do it in porn movies and keep it as part of your fantasies and naughty talk in bed.

[oldshirt]

. In my personal opinion if he doesn't have the giblets, patience and wherewithal to develop enough of a rapport and comfort to have sex with actual swingers then he has no business trying to navigate the minefield and pitfalls of having a sexual relationship with family friends.

 

d.

 

Now I do want to point out that even people in the lifestyle often do take time to get to know each other and develop a rapport and comfort with each other over time before anything sexual takes place.

 

I have personally known many couples that months and months developing comfort and rapport before any clothes ever come off.

 

Yes, sometimes the stars line up and people play on the first meeting but for every one of those, there are several that take much longer.

I know two couples that spent two years having dinner dates, backyard BBQs, card games, nights out dancing etc etc before the had actual sex.

 

Exploring swinging within the swinging community is not an outlandish idea.

 

It is a legitimate compromise and a valid option to consider if he wants to play with others.

 

Otherwise if you can't meet on middle ground somewhere, then you may at an impasse and in this realm, if all 4 people can't agree on the terms and groundrules, then it is game-over.

[oldshirt]

My last couple posts may have came off overly harsh towards your H. I did not mean it to sound so harsh or that I was putting him down.

 

I do want to make clear that he absolutely has every right to maintain his own boundaries and comfort zones as much as anyone else and he of course would need to have the same veto powers as anyone else if there was something that he couldn't live with.

 

However in the world of married couples inviting others into their marital bed, the tie-breaker and final verdict always goes to the female half.

 

Yes that is a bit of a double standard and is probably unfair, but it is what it is and it has to be that way. The one who possesses the vagina always has the final word.

 

You each have equal veto powers but neither of you has the right to impose your will onto the other nonconsensually.

 

If you each veto the other's play preference - it doesn't happen.

 

If you can't accept accept them cuddling and cooing each other, you must maintain that boundary otherwise everything will break down quickly.

 

If he can't bring himself to making new friends for casual sexplay without the intimacy and deep emotional connection, then it doesn't happen.

 

Inviting others into the marital bed is not for the faint of heart nor is it for tenderfoots, dreamers, wannabes or Walter Mittys. There are serious decisions to made, strict guidelines to be followed and serious risks that will be negotiated.

 

If 4 people are on the same page, work together, have respect and compassion for each other and all act in good faith and sincerity in following the agreed upon rules and boundaries, wonderful things can happen and a whole lot of fun can be had.

 

But if they can't agree, then it's best to let discretion be the better part of valor and call it day and leave it as a fun fantasy. And if someone does pressure and railroad someone into doing something they do not want to do, drama, hurt feelings, damaged relationships and even tragedy are going to follow.

[Sinderdawlee]

Oldshirt, it's okay. I appreciate your honesty. I suppose I am defending him, but it's because I know he is human and while his intentions may be good, his behavior can still be flawed despite that. I just don't want his behavior on this particular subject to define him as a person.

 

Unfortunately it really does seem like things have gone too far and I'm not sure what to do, other than outright ending it but I don't think that will help, either. I gave him permission to flirt with Jennifer but one of my ground rules coming into this whole thing was that everyone has to be forthcomint with everyone else, meaning if there's flirting going on, others in the group need to be informed. Same with sending sexually explicit photos and the like.

 

Well today he asked me to search for his phone that he had misplaced, so I called it and found the phone. It showed my missed call as well a text from Jennifer. We were about to meet Jen and Jim for dinner so I checked the text to make sure dinner was still a go. Well, turns out they were sexting each other and neither one of them had told me about it. And my husband also said "This situation is super frustrating" to her, basically making a pass at me for making relations between him and her "difficult" with my pesky feelings.

 

I feel so betrayed now. It shouldn't be that big of a deal, it was just a few texts but I literally asked people to tell me if anything was going on, and they didn't. And it upsets me that he talked about frustrating the situation is with her...I already have expressed to him and everyone else that I feel bad that I'm not comfortable with the same things they are. I just feel so disrespected.

 

I confronted Jennifer and she apologized, and said it won't happen again but how can I trust her? And now I'm worried if I simply say "game over" that she won't be able to help herself, maybe my husband won't either. I feel like ending it will simply make them both resentful, and I will never be able to shake the feeling that something is going on behind my back. I wish I had just followed my intuition and said no to this bull**** from the start.

[kgcolonel]

Sinder, I see this a bit differently, you need to re-calibrate how you are seeing and feeling about this whole situation. The fact is, you husband and girl friend have now cheated on you. They have been carrying on behind your back and got busted.....

 

This is absolutely a trainwreck waiting to happen....and the idea of your husband defending what they had been doing is even proof that you can't trust either one of them. A situation like this is going to destroy at least the friendship if not the marriage.

 

You are right in one sense, if you say no, they will likey go ahead and continue their AFFAIR. That's right, it is an affair no matter how you slice it, they have been having an EA and headed to a physical A.....if it were reversed, and your husband felt as you do, what do you think he would do?

 

Also, this is the reason you didn't want to do this....the stakes were too high and now you are left with a very difficult decision.

 

Very sorry this has happened....."it won't happen again"....oh, Please....should have never happened....can't help her self....again, oh, please....she won't help herself.....life is a chain of choices we make and benefit or pay for as we progress....

 

 

Protect your heart here!!!

 

 

PS...Was your husband at all remorseful about what he'd been doing? Sounds like he was making excuses from your writings.

[RecentChange]

Honesty, put in the same situation I would demand to cut all ties with Jennifer and her husband.

 

What is your priority here, this unhealthy friendship or saving your marriage. And yes, I purposely say save as it is now in peril.

 

This bad idea has now caused you to have feelings, negative feelings about your husband that I bet you have never had before.

 

He has betrayed you, he has put his infatuation with Jennifer ahead of you.

 

This man, who needs "emotional ties" in order to have sex has found a new and exciting thing in Jennifer, and I don't think he has the experience to navigate that mine field.

 

Bottom line, you can't trust them. And the only way for this to work was with absolute trust and transparency.

 

That ship has sailed.

[jen1447]

I gave him permission to flirt with Jennifer

 

Don't mean to pile on, but why did you do that, in the face of everything that's been said here and your own very clear feelings on the matter?

[aileD]

Swinger situations need to have very clear boundaries and respect.

 

Between everyone but especially between husband and wife

 

If he cannot respect your stated boundaries then all bets are off. ALL. No flirting either

 

You already crossed that line with this other couple which will make it hard to stay non swinger friends with them.

 

How much do you both value your marriage?

[Sinderdawlee]

jen1447, I gave him permission because I thought it was better than just being "the bitchy wife" who ruins everyone else's fun. I thought if I could just force myself to relax and accept the way he wants to do things, I could eventually learn to be happy with the situation and somehow things would fall into place. Our arguments have been centered around a conflict of approach, and one of us has to budge if it's going to work. So I tried to be the one to do that. I tried to be the bigger person and it blew up in my face.

 

KGcolonel, was he "remorseful", not exactly. He was more pissed off that I read his texts, even though full disclosure was supposed to be the policy since the beginning. I have a skype window where I chat with Jim and I always leave it open if he wants to read it, and if something is said to Jim, I tell him about it and let him know he can read the conversation for more details. However I haven't said anything to Jim in awhile because I've been feeling very uncomfortable the situation, especially with how quickly things have progressed with my husband and Jennifer where they have not progressed for me. My husband also blames me for things not progressing for me, claiming that they can, but I have to put in the effort. Which is true, I'm sure if I was more openly flirty with Jim and Jennifer, I would get a good response, however I am not comfortable with flirting with them. I just agreed to it because it seems like that's what my husband wants to do. So I have "permission" to do all the things he's doing, I just don't feel comfortable doing it.

 

My husband claims I'm not allowed to be upset because "I gave him permission to flirt but didn't explicitly say he needed to keep me updated on it", which is true. I didn't explicitly say that, however with everything we've been doing, I have always said full disclosure and keep people updated with what's going on so, it was very heavily implied. He doesn't want to accept responsibility and just keeps saying it's my fault because I didn't explicitly ask him up front. I can't really argue with that so I'm trying to not view the texts as a betrayal, but it is still difficult. Even Jennifer immediately recognized that not letting me know about the texting going on was wrong and apologized profusely. She said she wants to flirt with me too, but doesn't know how, because her and I are notoriously bad at flirting with women. Jennifer ALSO asked to be updated on if anything happens with me and Jim so she really just broke her own rule by not affording me the same courtesy.

 

I still don't view this as an "affair", there's just a very unclear set of "rules" that people seem to be confused about, and I admit I have made it confusing because I keep trying to be okay with this one minute, but then get upset about it the next. I am sending a lot of mixed signals, interested one minute, not interested the next...I am just just struggling with this whole "treat them like their a secondary relationship" thing. It's not that I'm not interested in them myself, I'm just not that interested in them until we're all in a group setting in person, and we've all gotten over our shyness by drinking. That's really the only way I feel comfortable and trying to take my husband's approach is just really triggering all of my jealousy and danger sensors.

 

Jennifer is insisting not to "call things off", and has invited me to practice flirting with her and that if I am ever bothered by something, to just tell her and she'll do her best to fix it. It's not like I've kept zero communication with Jennifer while all this is happening. She is still my friend and we still talk often, and she genuinely seems remorseful when things upset me (same cannot be said of my husband, however.) So it's just tough for me to make that final "end game" call. I like certain aspects of this, but other parts make me feel insane and jealous. If I end all of this now, I worry everyone thinks it's because I'm just crazy and jealous and don't trust anyone, which makes me look like a bad person. And as I also mentioned, there is a fear that this will somehow continue behind my back. That could just be me being paranoid, or it could be the truth, it's honestly very difficult to say.

[RecentChange]

Really you are not a BAD PERSON for not being comfortable with this.

 

99% of the married people out there wouldn't be comfortable with this either.

 

The fact that your husband keeps pushing for this despite your clear discomfort is disrespectful.

 

Remember when another poster said to be on your toes I'd hubby got his panties in a wad over not being able to have Jennifer? Well here we are.

 

WHO CARES WHAT THIS OTHER COUPLE FEELS ABOUT YOU! In the grand scheme of things they are irrelevant.

 

Jennifer and your husband are trying to manipulate you into something you don't want. This isn't going to end well.

 

Please listen to your heart and head. I think they are right about this. Honesty I think your husband is naive, and is too wrapped up in the new excitement of flirting with Jenifer to see beyond the tip of his dick.

[oldshirt]

Back when the kids were little, there were times that they would want to do something that I didn't really want to expressly forbid and hear them whine and cry and bitch all day. But I didn't really want to mess with it or deal with it either.

 

So what I'd often end up doing even though not entirely intentional was put so many conditions and requirements and hoops and hurdles on it that it was more work and frustration for them than it was fun and in time they'd just drop it.

 

I see that taking place here to a degree.

 

At first you said no flirting and they stomped their feet and whined.

 

Then you said they could as long as you knew about it but they didn't do it quick enough or frequent enough and didn't run every single txt by you or had you sign off on every single txt they sent back.

 

It's a little childish for them to whine and pout at your boundaries because it's interfering with their fun.

 

But at the same time it's unrealistic that they drop everything and notify you of every txt the moment it comes in and then have you proof read their response before they hit send.

 

(Yes I am exaggerating, but it's to make a point)

 

They want to do this.

 

You don't.

 

Someone is going to have to grow up and make a decision and live with it.

 

They are either going to have to grow up and decide if their little flirty txts and cuddle moments are worth risking a marriage and a friendship or not.

 

Or you are going to have to grow some ovaries and tell them to take a cold shower and get over it.

[oldshirt]

And if they don't like being told what to do like a bunch of kids and have an affair behind your back, then you treat that as you would if your H was banging his secretary at work.

[oldshirt]

Someone is going to be disappointed and upset at the end of the day here.

 

Either it will be them because the big mean ok' wife wouldn't let them have their cake and eat it too however and whenever they want.

 

Or it will be you when they are basically having a love affair at your expence.

 

Your choice is whether you are gonna be the one crying in the end or if it will be them.

[Sinderdawlee]

I officially put and end to it. Not surprisingly, Jim is very supportive and understanding, Jennifer won't talk to me and my husband is upset. Sigh.

[aileD]

I officially put and end to it. Not surprisingly, Jim is very supportive and understanding, Jennifer won't talk to me and my husband is upset. Sigh.

 

That's your clue it was something more than friends with benefits for H and Jennifer.

[Methodical]

Jennifer knew you had reservations and claimed she wanted to calm your fears. She said to let her know if something made you uncomfortable so she could fix it. Now she isn't speaking to you... looks and sounds like a smokescreen.

 

You did the right thing by ending this.

[xxoo]

I officially put and end to it. Not surprisingly, Jim is very supportive and understanding, Jennifer won't talk to me and my husband is upset. Sigh.

 

They have been manipulating you. Now, they are mad because you stood up for yourself.

 

Good for you. Stay strong.

[kgcolonel]

Now....you have cleared the smokescreen and you friend and H have been exposed.

 

You should count on your H and your friend playing behind your back....they have identified themselves and now are upset that you wont endose the affair.

 

BTW, you said you wouldn't call it an affair. What would you call it if you had not given permission to text and sext with the intent to have sex? Maybe there hasn't been any physical component to this (I really hate to say this but I would bet a lot of money that there has been physical components to the A) but it there hasn't, I will bet that there soon will be.

 

Your husband should be the person who protects you and the relationship, he was out for his own entertainment as was your friend. Seems like everyone's true colors are coming out....

 

Very sorry to see you or anyone else in this situation.

[Cephalopod]

I would ask your husband straight up how long he and Jennifer have been ****ing behind your back.

[oldshirt]

I officially put and end to it. Not surprisingly, Jim is very supportive and understanding, Jennifer won't talk to me and my husband is upset. Sigh.

 

Someone had to be the adult and make a stand.

 

Either they were were going to get miffed or you were going to get heartbroken and shut out.