I'm starting to feel like men are hopeless, and I'm hopeless around them

[insert_name]

I really appreciated your earlier perspective, but now I feel like you're taking it too far. Isn't it simply the DECENT thing to do to make sure someone you are with who has had too much to drink gets home safely? Isn't it simply also BASIC DECENCY to not so much as be sexually suggestive with any person who is heavily under the influence, or to touch them in a suggestive way? Isn't it just pretty basic to expect that someone who emails you to check in two weeks after the evening in question not make references, even in jest and particularly given the circumstances, to tying up and abducting me?

 

It feels like you're telling me I shouldn't feel uncomfortable. I have very good instincts and I'm telling you that the way he acted, I felt rather uncomfortable. I also wanted to be sure to communicate, in as measured but clear a way as possible, that I was NOT interested in anything with him other than participating in our program.

 

By the way, he made the other woman we were with uncomfortable, as well, which was why she told me what happened at the bar while I was in the restroom. But that's irrelevant. It is enough that I didn't feel comfortable.

 

What kind of standard to we have these days that a man is some great guy for not either leaving someone who is compromised to their own devices or taking advantage of a woman at any opportunity that presents itself? It's depressing.

 

Okay my last response on this just to clear up what you said:

 

All I will say are there are a lot of dangers for men these days when dealing with drunken women. If you try and help her home people look at you like you are the one who did that and are trying to take advantage of her. Honestly, having been in that situation and tried to do the decent thing from now on I would prefer to leave them to it. Not worth it (the sad fact is that some women will prove my point by reading this and thinking 'ZOMG this guy is a rapist!').

 

You have every right to feel uncomfortable and not okay with what happened. I just don't like it when people try and apply intent to someone and then rag on them based on that intent when there isn't a great deal of proof why he acted like he did (although that isn't necessarily you ragging on him, more everyone else who are painting him out to be a predator which is pretty extreme). As someone who was quite socially awkward and taken great strides to turn that around I just want to try and put forward the idea that the guy may not have known that what he did/was doing was inappropriate based on how well socialised he is. I am basing this on the fact that he didn't force himself on you like a lot of meat heads would have done. He had enough respect that (from your tale of events) he left you be once you were in bed and again, the follow up email reeks to me of someone trying to make light of something that a woman wouldn't find nice at all. Two different people's perspectives, his opinion of topical humour is obviously calibrated totally differently from yours (and most women's to be fair). He didn't send you a dick pic or outright proposition you, he tried to keep it friendly. Of course you can find it creepy if you want but that doesn't mean that he wasn't writing it in all innocence and meant no offence by it.

 

It is exasperating because I am at a point where I really don't know how I can express what I am trying to say any better so as said before best say nothing after this.

 

To bring it back to your original point I wouldn't use this guy to lose faith in men as, as I am trying to point out, I don't think he is your garden variety sexual predator/or your average Tinder sex-pest. More someone who wants to make a move on a girl he is attracted to but really has no idea how to go about doing it. There are people out there like that, just as there are perfectly decent and respectable guys. Not every man is a dick pic wielding Tinder sex pest!

Edited October 31, 2016 by insert_name

[Zapbasket]

Okay my last response on this just to clear up what you said:

 

All I will say are there are a lot of dangers for men these days when dealing with drunken women. If you try and help her home people look at you like you are the one who did that and are trying to take advantage of her. Honestly, having been in that situation and tried to do the decent thing from now on I would prefer to leave them to it. Not worth it (the sad fact is that some women will prove my point by reading this and thinking 'ZOMG this guy is a rapist!').

 

You have every right to feel uncomfortable and not okay with what happened. As someone who was quite socially awkward and taken great strides to turn that around I just want to try and put forward the idea that the guy may not have known that what he did/was doing was inappropriate based on how well socialised he is. I am basing this on the fact that he didn't force himself on you like a lot of meat heads would have done. He had enough respect that (from your tale of events) he left you be once you were in bed and again, the follow up email reeks to me of someone trying to make light of something that a woman wouldn't find nice at all. Two different people's perspectives, his opinion of topical humour is obviously calibrated totally differently from yours (and most women's to be fair). He didn't send you a dick pic or outright proposition you, he tried to keep it friendly. Of course you can find it creepy if you want but that doesn't mean that he wasn't writing it in all innocence and meant no offence by it.

 

It is exasperating because I am at a point where I really don't know how I can express what I am trying to say any better so as said before best say nothing. I have tried to put an alternative viewpoint and explain that this is not as black and white a situation as is being made out.

 

I get what you're saying and I think your points are valid. It puts everyone in an awkward situation, to be sure, and I regret getting to such a state that this all had to happen. I think because I am indeed aware of the awkwardness that can ensue in such situations had I been in the other woman's shoes that night, I'd have insisted on being the one to take her to her hotel, to protect both her and the guy.

 

So, I think we're on the same page pretty much, you and I, and I really appreciate your perspective. I think the point I'm trying to make is that while no doubt he is socially awkward (at the first large meeting of our program, he wrote "NOPE" on his name tag in big red letters so that he could hold it up to people who asked him about the creative project he was in the program to complete, and not have to answer), that doesn't make him exactly "innocent," either. What made me most uncomfortable with this whole thing was the fact that he tried to arrange things so that he could kiss me that evening, when we weren't on a date and to my mind that was about the furthest thing from the purpose of the evening or what was really allowable given the situation (that we had a third party with us). If he were in high school or something, I'd call that socially awkward; given he's probably in his fifties he should have known better. I wouldn't have been as creeped out if he'd just gotten me to my hotel, if he hadn't put a hand on me or tried to kiss me, and then written to ask me on a date the next time I come to town. I'd still have turned him down, but then I'd have felt that his intentions were "innocent."

 

No doubt this is why I generally try to drink responsibly. It just creates a mess. That said, I don't think anyone should leave someone in the group on their own if they are inebriated. If you don't want the potential awkwardness of taking a woman to her home or hotel, at least call her a cab.

[preraph]

It should be noted that a majority of the most dangerous creeps in history have been socially awkward, with a smaller minority being smooth con artists, so GreenCove, you are correct that being socially awkward does not make him innocent; quite the opposite.

[preraph]

Okay, that's fair. So here's what I've typed out to send to him; you think it's ok?

 

"Quote:

Thanks for making sure I got to my hotel safely, and for the ride to my car in the morning. It's regrettable I was in a position where that had to happen, because such situations can perhaps send confusing messages.

 

I'm in [our Program] because I am dedicated to completing [my creative project], and enjoying supporting and getting to know other people as serious about their work as I am about mine. I'm not interested in anything beyond that. I hope we can enjoy more group social outings like two weekends ago; I had a great time."

 

If he's a creep, all he's going to remember from this is "I hope we can enjoy more group social outings like two weekends ago; I had a great time."

 

So better steer clear of him at any social outings or skip them entirely.

[insert_name]

It should be noted that a majority of the most dangerous creeps in history have been socially awkward, with a smaller minority being smooth con artists, so GreenCove, you are correct that being socially awkward does not make him innocent; quite the opposite.

 

Yes, but was he one of the dangerous creeps? I don't think so, based on what OP wrote.

[Zapbasket]

"Quote:

Thanks for making sure I got to my hotel safely, and for the ride to my car in the morning. It's regrettable I was in a position where that had to happen, because such situations can perhaps send confusing messages.

 

I'm in [our Program] because I am dedicated to completing [my creative project], and enjoying supporting and getting to know other people as serious about their work as I am about mine. I'm not interested in anything beyond that. I hope we can enjoy more group social outings like two weekends ago; I had a great time."

 

If he's a creep, all he's going to remember from this is "I hope we can enjoy more group social outings like two weekends ago; I had a great time."

 

So better steer clear of him at any social outings or skip them entirely.

 

I changed that last line in what I sent him: "I hope we can continue to enjoy our social outings as a group and participating in the Workshops. See you in January." Was that better?

 

I have no intention of letting this whole thing color my experience of this program so I'm not going to skip the social outings. That's why I posted here--I wanted to be sure I was reading and responding appropriately to the situation at hand. My hope is that now he is very clear that I am not interested and will leave me be, and that he won't act all sullen and butt-hurt in our group meetings as has been my experience with other men in the past. (Telling them, "No thanks" and then they act out in annoying and/or undermining ways.)

[Zapbasket]

Yes, but was he one of the dangerous creeps? I don't think so, based on what OP wrote.

 

I don't think so, either, but I think preraph's point is that you never know. Or at least that's how I took it.

[Gary335]

Gary335, maybe this situation of mine sheds light on what I was telling you regarding your situation, on your thread. It's a very rare thing indeed, at least in my experience, when a guy takes a genuine interest in you, over and above what you might be to him (girlfriend, etc.). I have so often felt that guys are more interested in "winning" me than actually getting to know me, and then, if they did "win" me, they're more interested in my conformity to whatever pedestal-image of me they've cultivated than in my unfolding to them as who I authentically am.

 

It has actually shed some light on what you were telling me. I have to admit, I'm very guilty of this. I have a tendency of pedestal-izing women, and trying to win them.

 

It's sad. I'd really love to have a male friend right now, who might harbor some interest in me, but who's really more about us getting to know each other and do fun things together than winning me as his girlfriend. It would even be nice to be wooed. Do men even do that anymore? It seems more that they think if you are nice to them, it must indicate some romantic interest, and then they mess up what could be a good thing because they feel entitled to your romantic attentions--often without offering any semblance of a commitment in return.

 

This really caught my attention. I think this is the second time you've said this. Clearly you want a male friend! Yes, I think some guys still do this. I know I do! I have no problem with this at all. Quite honestly I have to admit that it would be nice to have a female friend, without all the romantic stuff. Someone to hang out with and do fun stuff and talk to, with without the goal of trying to win her lol. But yeah, we guys tend to take you being nice to us as a sign of something, for sure. And yeah, we usually mess up a good thing by doing so. I'm guilty of this too lol. I'm sure I've messed up more than a few good things by trying to push for more.

 

It's like this guy. He put himself first. He didn't consider the social mores of the program we're in; he didn't consider the other woman who was with us; he didn't consider my vulnerability in being inebriated and alone with him; and he didn't consider that through all of this I wasn't there for HIM, but for our group. What he also didn't bother to find out yet is that I'm scary talented in the kind of work we're there to do and for that and so many other reasons, he'd never have a legitimate chance with me, either as someone I'd consider a true colleague, and certainly not as a boyfriend or whatever twisted horny whatever he was after.

 

Clearly this guy didn't care about you. He had one objective in mind, which he made obvious by putting his hand up your dress. And again by trying to get the other woman to go away. The good thing is that somehow, even after taking you back to your hotel he failed to go through with it. But there's no doubt in my mind that he hoped the next day you'd fall into his arms for being such a great guy and taking such good care of you and seeing to your safety. If his intentions had truly been pure he wouldn't have had his hand on you, or tried to get you alone. Or sent you a creepy message the next day lol.

 

GC, you've been immensely helpful to me. I truly can't thank you enough. Not to say everyone else in my thread wasn't helpful. But for some reason your perspective on the situation really seemed to ring true to me.

[preraph]

Yes, but was he one of the dangerous creeps? I don't think so, based on what OP wrote.

 

I suspect him of either doping or just getting too much alcohol in her drink and then "saving" her. The fact he actually said "Poison," to me, that is suspect that he even used that word jokingly. He pretty much admitted having some hand in getting her that messed up. He did touch her, too. And then she found out later he tried to get another person to leave them alone together so he could kiss try to kiss her. So I don't trust the guy at all.

 

But most of all, I trust Green Cove's instincts. We women have instincts we need to listen to more often from centuries of having to avoid bad situations with men -- and hers is going off loud and clear, and I trust it.

[preraph]

I changed that last line in what I sent him: "I hope we can continue to enjoy our social outings as a group and participating in the Workshops. See you in January." Was that better?

 

I have no intention of letting this whole thing color my experience of this program so I'm not going to skip the social outings. That's why I posted here--I wanted to be sure I was reading and responding appropriately to the situation at hand. My hope is that now he is very clear that I am not interested and will leave me be, and that he won't act all sullen and butt-hurt in our group meetings as has been my experience with other men in the past. (Telling them, "No thanks" and then they act out in annoying and/or undermining ways.)

 

Personally, I don't think you should have said anything nice to him at all. Just that you weren't interested and not that you were looking forward to seeing him in January. If he IS a creep, this will not deter him and will only give him hope that his escapade went undetected to be any possible fault of his. I think you need to give him NO nice encouragement and then just deal with it if he is still around next time by avoiding him and watching your drink. Just to be safest. I also think you should alert any close girl friends in the group not to give him any encouragement where you are concerned and to keep their eyes open for their own safety as well.

[insert_name]

I suspect him of either doping or just getting too much alcohol in her drink and then "saving" her. The fact he actually said "Poison," to me, that is suspect that he even used that word jokingly. He pretty much admitted having some hand in getting her that messed up. He did touch her, too. And then she found out later he tried to get another person to leave them alone together so he could kiss try to kiss her. So I don't trust the guy at all.

 

But most of all, I trust Green Cove's instincts. We women have instincts we need to listen to more often from centuries of having to avoid bad situations with men -- and hers is going off loud and clear, and I trust it.

 

Sorry, but the thought of a guy spiking/overloading a drink in order to 'save' someone sounds very very contrived. Kind of like taking 2 & 2 and pleading with it to equal 5. Far more likely that if he had some grand plan to incapacitate OP he would have just forced himself on her. OP also reports being aware of what was going on at all times and was able to get into bed, does that mean he messed up the dosage too? Interestingly, studies have found that drink spiking is as rare as rocking horse droppings:

 

"During thousands of blood and alcohol tests lots of judgement-impairing compounds were discovered, but they were mostly street drugs or prescription pharmaceuticals taken by the victims themselves, and above all alcohol was the common theme.

 

"As Dr Burgess observes, it is not scientific evidence which keeps the drug rape myth alive but the fact that it serves so many useful functions."

 

Date-rape drink spiking 'an urban legend' - Telegraph

 

The bolded is particularly interesting, people can't distinguish between being excessively drunk and being spiked and blame spiking as it is the easiest and most convenient answer (presumably because it absolves them of responsibility for their condition - although I am speaking generally here, NOT about OP specifically) and yet drug tests show that the vast majority of the time they were simply drunk. So it is far from unusual for people to wake up the next day and think they were spiked- but they actually weren't.

 

So....it is of course possible that this drug/alcohol overdose scenario happened, but on the balance of things highly unlikely.

 

Just that you weren't interested and not that you were looking forward to seeing him in January. If he IS a creep, this will not deter him and will only give him hope that his escapade went undetected to be any possible fault of his. I think you need to give him NO nice encouragement and then just deal with it if he is still around next time by avoiding him

 

This I do agree with. Not a good idea to say looking forward to seeing him, it is likely to make him still think there is some interest.

[preraph]

Sorry, but the thought of a guy spiking/overloading a drink in order to 'save' someone sounds very very contrived. Kind of like taking 2 & 2 and pleading with it to equal 5. Far more likely that if he had some grand plan to incapacitate OP he would have just forced himself on her. OP also reports being aware of what was going on at all times and was able to get into bed, does that mean he messed up the dosage too? Interestingly, studies have found that drink spiking is as rare as rocking horse droppings:

 

 

 

Date-rape drink spiking 'an urban legend' - Telegraph

 

The bolded is particularly interesting, people can't distinguish between being excessively drunk and being spiked and blame spiking as it is the easiest and most convenient answer (presumably because it absolves them of responsibility for their condition - although I am speaking generally here, NOT about OP specifically) and yet drug tests show that the vast majority of the time they were simply drunk. So it is far from unusual for people to wake up the next day and think they were spiked- but they actually weren't.

 

So....it is of course possible that this drug/alcohol overdose scenario happened, but on the balance of things highly unlikely.

 

 

 

This I do agree with. Not a good idea to say looking forward to seeing him, it is likely to make him still think there is some interest.

 

Well, it is contrived -- by the guy. It's happened to me in my younger days, twice. It's actually fairly common as far as that goes. One guy who did it to me, I dodged the bullet because someone else took me home when I got sick after ONE drink. Then the guy who did it stalked me later (I saw him in my hallway in my apartment building) and did a bunch of weird stuff, and I knew it was him.

 

Urban legend, my butt. Guys at bars, there's always some predatory ones trying to get someone drunk enough to pull them out the door, always.

Edited November 1, 2016 by preraph

[joseb]

The only person i know who has definitely had their drink spiked is a friend of mine. It happened on their first night in the states and he woke up in an alley minus all his mone. So it does happen. And both women and men can be targeted. But the way he describes it, it's not like being drunk. He knew before he passed out he was spiked but couldn't do anything.

 

Now it's possible this happened to Op just a much smaller dose. I just find it hard to believe a work acquaintance who could so easily be traced would do this, especially in front of another witness, and especially after asking that girl to give them space so he could kiss her.

And especially if sending an email that could be used to imply he was admitting to it.

 

I've read loads of posts on here where people lament the fact they didn't have alone time to make a move (both male and female) to me that's all he was looking for when suggesting that the other girl give them time.

He didn't know that she wasn't interested in him.

 

So I really doubt he spiked her drink.

 

OP, you aren't interested in this guy, and his email was at least very odd, so just keep maintaining your distance.

[preraph]

Joseb, I agree with most of what you said, but a guy who is socially awkward won't always go straight to doping and raping or whatever. This guy is trying to get on her good side and see if he can weasel his way in that way, but he did touch her and he did contrive to get others out of the way to see if he could get her alone by asking the girlfriend what he did. Offenders start small and get more brazen with each success, which is why it's imperative that she be firm and not friendly with him so he doesn't count this as a success.

 

And any women who go to bars, there are ethical bartenders and unethical ones. When I moved to the big city in my mid-twenties, the bar I mostly went to to see bands was soon comping me drinks because they want to encourage women to be there for the men and because they know the drunker they are the more likely the men will have success with them. That is a very common thing, to give women free drinks so there's more women coming in for the men.

 

Then some bartenders will take it further and if you hand them a big tip and order a drink for a woman and tell them to put an extra shot in it or make it a real stiff drink, they will happily do that. So I just urge all women to order their own drinks. Even then, the bartender may punch it up. It's really not safe to drink vodka because you can barely taste it if it's really strong. Order something you can taste and watch them pour the drink at the bar. Then don't let anyone near your drink or leave it laying on the table while you go dance or whatever where someone can put something in it.

 

One of the times it happened to me, I didn't see it coming at all. It was a motorcycle escort partner of mine and the boss was at the table with us and he ordered a drink for me that tasted like it had everything in the world in it. I told him I don't mix liquors (was drinking wine) and he kept prodding me to drink it. It hit me really hard, and he said he lived nearby I shouldn't drive all the way home, but that was a lie. He actually lived out of town. I wasn't quite as passed out as he'd hoped I was and threatened him with death if he so much as touched me because by then I knew this was intentional, but I was still too messed up to get out of there and didn't know where I was.

 

All my young life, I saw the vultures circling at bars once a woman started teetering and just literally a circle of guys around her trying to see if they could lead her out the door. I got particularly perturbed at someone I used to work with who I hadn't seen in over a decade who was in his 40s and after this real clean cut blond coed who was about 19 or 20. She had friends there, thankfully, but every time he saw here alone, he'd buy her a drink or dance with her and pretty soon she was just completely dizzy and about to fall down drunk, and at that time, he moved in and just literally tried to pull her out the door with him. I was just disgusted. Her friends spotted this in time and intervened, and I said something to the disgusting guy.

 

Whether it's doping or not, there's plenty of ways to, as they called it back then, "load" a drink and incapacitate someone, and you shouldn't trust anyone who is "conveniently" there to "save" you when that happens and you don't know how it happened.

[ChatroomHero]

I don't think the email was creepy, just socially awkward. He was just making light of what happened in his dorky way. He is harmless. He's a guy, he's interested in you, and is asking you out...that part is pretty normal. You don't see it that way because of the circumstances. It was unfortunate that you did drink too much and you are trying to regain your dignity.

 

You don't have to give him some long winded explanation......just send a "sorry not interested" and leave it at that.

 

I tend to agree.

[seekingpeaceinlove]

The guy had the opportunity to make a move on you but he didn't. He sent you an email the next day with hopes that you would find him witty and charming.

 

Obviously he failed miserably as you were genuinely offended and creeped out.

 

I wonder...if the guy was incredibly attractive though...

 

In any case simply tell him you're not interested with no other explanation. His response will tell you whether he's a real creeper or not.

[GravityMan]

I don't buy that this guy is merely "socially awkward". Many socially awkward guys still have social awareness and know right from wrong. Even when in the presence of a woman he's attracted to. Sure, this guy may be socially awkward...but in addition he also has more sinister characteristics.

 

OP, I agree with those who advised you to keep your distance. Keep all future interactions with him strictly professional. With that said, even if both of you ARE able to maintain professionalism from now on, there still may be a cloud hanging over you that won't easily dissipate, mentally/emotionally speaking. That may adversely impact your productivity when your group gets together. So with that in mind, you should consider taking GemmaUK and carhill's advice and notify the appropriate authority figure(s) within this program.

[Zapbasket]

I got too busy this week and started several replies that I was unable to finish.

 

Thanks so much for these thoughtful and diverse replies. I learned a lot from this thread, and I'm so glad I posted about this situation. After editing out the bit about "looking forward" to seeing him at our next group meeting, I sent him the reply I posted here. And not surprisingly, it has been a week and no response from him. If I have a bead on him, he'll probably be silent and sullen at our next meeting (that's his default, anyway--as I mentioned, at our new-student orientation/party he wrote, "NOPE" in big letters on his name tag so that he wouldn't have to answer any questions about his work). I plan to just go about my business and not let him color my experience. If he oversteps in any way, I will say something to the program director / our group mentor.

 

I'm glad I created this thread because I've been hard at work learning how to cultivate better boundaries. It came to my attention that I needed to do this work because the failures of all my romantic relationships, and other relationships, too, can all be mostly attributed to my penchant for making ENDLESS excuses for the bad behavior of other people. I have done this in the face of my instincts SCREAMING, at times, that what a person said or did was absolutely, bar none, unacceptable.

 

In the past, when faced with this same situation with this guy, I'd probably have been very concerned about not rocking the boat. Because I'd want to have nice relations with this professional group, I'd tell myself that no, no, he's not creepy or inappropriate, just an awkward guy who had an interest in me that I didn't reciprocate. I'd go further to feel BAD, i.e., GUILTY, that I wasn't interested, and I'd try to make it up to him by being extra nice in our group meetings.

 

Yes, I was really that ridiculous! Writing it out, it looks so much more ridiculous than I ever realized.

 

Because here's what I realize now, and thanks to the support of each one of you, even those who disagreed with me, I have confidence that I am FINALLY heading in the right direction: Yeah, dude was a creep. I got that vibe at our very first meeting with this program. When I learned that he was in my small group of six under the same mentor, within the first minute of meeting him I remember feeling disappointed that I was going to have to spend two years with him in my group, someone who was obviously awkward, a "project," and not someone I'd ever want to hang out with socially. I initially pushed those thoughts out of my head in the effort to "keep an open mind."

 

But then when he showed up at the next meeting with a big "Nope" on his name tag, it confirmed that he really wasn't going to be an enriching presence for me in this program.

 

And then: the evening in question. I've historically always taken care not to get too inebriated to take care of myself at events. I don't know why this one evening I let myself go over the edge. I do not think he put something in my drink, not because I think he's not capable, but because I don't see how he could have had the opportunity. And I think if he HAD spiked my drink, he most certainly would have taken full advantage of being alone with me in my hotel room later.

 

But anyway, so yeah, I got drunk. I don't need to apologize for it, and I should be able to expect that the people I was with would ensure I get home safely without taking advantage of the situation in any way. That he didn't sexually assault me doesn't say anything about his character; it is simply the DECENT thing to do, PERIOD. And he DID have his hand on my thigh, under my dress. So he DID test the situation to see how far he could go--completely inappropriate given how far gone I was. That he didn't take it further doesn't make him "okay," or "not potentially dangerous."

 

He gave me the creeps, and that email he sent me after the fact just cinched it. And I need no further evidence than that--the accumulated sense of discomfort around him that screams he is BAD NEWS. He's not interested in me and just "socially awkward"--and what does that mean, anyway? We're all socially awkward, it's just that some of us take care to use our empathy towards others to read social cues and not do what we want when we want it, social mores be damned. If you are that socially awkward, go see a therapist, or stop being butt-hurt if people steer away from you or don't want to go on a date with you. As adults, we should all know what is socially appropriate, and what is not. No grown person should get a pass on that. I used to feel SORRY for socially awkward people, but I don't anymore. I'm letting that go.

 

So this was the first time I really listened to my gut. And it feels SOOOOO GOOD. One point for Green Cove! This was Test Case #1. The next time I have an encounter with a guy or go on a date, I have a little more confidence in my gut instinct.

[GemmaUK]

I;ve been working from home today - 11 hours today and yesterday - so much for a 9-5.30 job! Working from home was supposed to help as I'm poorly! Lol! - am exhausted!

 

But I will reply to your post tomorrow properly as I think for you - you need some validation to know that your gut is right. It is and you need to learn how to be less nice about telling an idiot like him to get the hell lost!

This situation that you have experienced is not normal nor very common - not unless you wear tops to your waist and belts for skirts - and you don't! I know that of you without even asking!!

 

I have some reports to do tomorrow but I will be back.

 

I am so pleased you really see he was in the wrong here.

Gimme one thing - how old are you please? You're late 20's early 30's aren't you?

[Zapbasket]

I;ve been working from home today - 11 hours today and yesterday - so much for a 9-5.30 job! Working from home was supposed to help as I'm poorly! Lol! - am exhausted!

 

But I will reply to your post tomorrow properly as I think for you - you need some validation to know that your gut is right. It is and you need to learn how to be less nice about telling an idiot like him to get the hell lost!

This situation that you have experienced is not normal nor very common - not unless you wear tops to your waist and belts for skirts - and you don't! I know that of you without even asking!!

 

I have some reports to do tomorrow but I will be back.

 

I am so pleased you really see he was in the wrong here.

Gimme one thing - how old are you please? You're late 20's early 30's aren't you?

 

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

I WISH I were still late 20s/early 30s. No, dear: I am 40. And I know everyone always says this, but I really do look about ten years younger. And I'm ebullient and spontaneous in person, which with how I look makes me seem...perhaps naive? Which I was, until recently. Very, very naive about the more sinister intentions of people and about men, dating and relationships. I had an abusive stepfather and my father died when I was a toddler, and I think these two things made me more vulnerable than I should have been in terms of my intellect to the sway of unsavory people.

 

The dude in question has to be about mid-fifties...and that's being generous. Though he could be one of those guys who looks much older than he is; maybe he's only around 50. The woman who was with us at the bar is only 23 so I'm a) impressed that she stood her ground with the dude and refused to go chill in the toilet while he tried to kiss me, and b) understanding of the fact that she didn't brush the dude aside and insist on taking me to my hotel herself...which I would most certainly expect of a woman nearer my age.

[Gr8fuln2020]

Whoa! I haven't followed this thread for a while, but when did our OP have to be convinced that it wasn't her fault????? It was never her fault! WTFrick?!

[Zapbasket]

Whoa! I haven't followed this thread for a while, but when did our OP have to be convinced that it wasn't her fault????? It was never her fault! WTFrick?!

 

Hey--not sure which comment you're referring to, but I certainly never felt anyone who responded to this thread was saying I was at fault. Nor did I feel it was my fault, though I have a tendency to take responsibility for other people's crap behavior that I've been working very, very hard over the past few years to address and change. The situation with this guy was a "test case" of sorts.

[preraph]

You know, we live and learn. I was naive forever about some things and completely street wise about others. It's a hard lesson to learn to stop making excuses for people. The nicer a person you are, the more understanding you want to be, and that gets real nice women in a lot of trouble. And the more of a caretaker or nurturer, the more likely to tolerate too much and attract bad people, and then the better people will drop out because they don't like your friends or judgment. I'm happy you have thought all this through so thoroughly and are happy with your new outlook. It sounds right on the money.

[Zapbasket]

You know, we live and learn. I was naive forever about some things and completely street wise about others. It's a hard lesson to learn to stop making excuses for people. The nicer a person you are, the more understanding you want to be, and that gets real nice women in a lot of trouble. And the more of a caretaker or nurturer, the more likely to tolerate too much and attract bad people, and then the better people will drop out because they don't like your friends or judgment. I'm happy you have thought all this through so thoroughly and are happy with your new outlook. It sounds right on the money.

 

Thank you. It's too bad it took reaching a personal bottom before I could recognize or acknowledge that something needed to change. Things were very very dark for a long time before I've finally begun to see and even perhaps to touch a new scope of possibilities. But as you say: we live and when we're open to it, we learn.

 

It's true, I always have tried to temper my judgments and give people the benefit of the doubt. An ex-friend of mine told me years ago that I'm much more willing to give people second chances than anyone she knows. I didn't know what she meant at the time, but I see it very clearly now. Even with this guy, before the whole bar night happened, I made an allowance for the "NOPE" on his name tag, telling myself perhaps he was simply quirky and uncomfortable in groups. But my gut sense told me almost at first sight that he was a loser and someone who just was not worth my getting to know. I have immediate judgments about people all the time, and almost as immediately I discount those judgments when they are negative. Yet EVERY TIME they are spot-on.

 

I just always was taught to embrace people different from me, and to treat others with the same kindness I extend to myself. The thing is, a) often I DON'T treat myself that kindly, and b) kindness without standards is like a house without a floor. I DON'T need to extend kindness to a man who would put his hand on my bare thigh under my dress when I am too inebriated to get myself to my own hotel room.

 

And yeah, like you, I have also always been quite developed and accomplished in other areas, and then in this area of dating, men, relationships, standards and expectations...I function as someone much younger and less mature than overall I am. I'm determined to go forward into a new chapter as a new, much stronger and more aware woman. I've just had it up to here (ten times as high as bunny can jump) with crap behavior, crap guys, crap people.

[Gr8fuln2020]

Hey--not sure which comment you're referring to, but I certainly never felt anyone who responded to this thread was saying I was at fault. Nor did I feel it was my fault, though I have a tendency to take responsibility for other people's crap behavior that I've been working very, very hard over the past few years to address and change. The situation with this guy was a "test case" of sorts.

 

Oh, okay. Misread GemmaUK's last part of the post. Jumped to conclusions.