Any chance we might get back together?

[JMichaelHeaton]

Long story short, mostly because I want to keep anonymous (Google these days...):

 

In my early thirties, I've been married for seven years, together for eight. The beginning to our relationship was rocky, we both had SOs when we met, I broke up with my then GF, she kept for BF for about six months into our relationship (theirs was a LDR). I was hurt at the time by her actions, she didn't acknowledge it and made it sound like no big deal. We moved abroad together the summer we got married (which she was kind of flippant about and maintained was solely for travel purposes, but I always believed that our marriage was serious and more than that). We had this head over heels kind of love, always, but our fights were at times very hurtful and unbearable to me. In those fights, I never uttered a single swearword and have always tried to remain levelheaded. She'd often go for the jugular, or in other words, find a weak spot and surgically assault it. Sometimes it would take me days if not weeks to recover from it and restore my composure.

 

Four years ago she began having anxiety attacks that were soul crushing and would go on for hours. It was soon followed by deep depression and bouts of not leaving the bed, life has no meaning, etc. (Edit: Didn't go for therapy at all. Her friends or family didn't know until I told someone close to her when she told me she was having suicidal thoughts. Refused therapy throughout.) She would often say that she couldn't be happy in our relationship and that we're in for a horrible, sad existence. I used to brush it off until it started getting to me. Our sex life was almost non-existent, and at times I felt like she was repulsed by me (she'd get panic attacks when I'd initiate). Sometime early this year, I started to feel alone, unloved and began to resent her. That's where it all went downhill. I met someone, had sex, took it too seriously and started thinking I had feelings for this person. I was in a fog for about two months, at the end of which I made a huge deal out of my marital unhappiness, packed a suitcase and left. It was only two or three days later that I told her about the affair when confronted with the question. After that, all hell broke loose, and I allowed her to leave for abroad to a country I can't currently travel to (can't really discuss this here, nothing illegal, just complicated).

 

I regretted it the day after. I broke all contact with the OW, I contacted my SO and we've been talking since (two months). She's obviously hurt, and went from angry to sad in the meantime. She won't be back for another six weeks, which is when she plans to see me. I went from angry and frustrated at the situation, as I believe these things are handled in person, to accepting of our current separation, and I'm willing to do anything to fix this. I have taken responsibility for my actions (including talking sincerely to all of our friends and family), I have expressed my regret and I have asked for her forgiveness and another chance practically every day since she left. I have also answered all of her questions and I still try to do so today. I even call her to tell her she can ask me anything she'd like, because I don't want to keep her in the dark. I've also been consistent in my actions - I don't go out, I stay in and do work or talk to her. Personally I feel crushed and devastated, I can't believe I did this and I'm not sure I can forgive myself. On some days I'm functional, on most I'm barely holding it together. I honestly don't know if she'll give it a shot. I think she still loves me and misses me. But I don't know if everything I've done so far is enough.

 

Thoughts?

Edited October 31, 2016 by JMichaelHeaton

[Pete2304]

Unlike a lot of people on here (and this isn't a criticism of the board or the often really good advice people give), I tend to err on the side of attempting reconciliation if it seems like it might be possible.

 

In your case though, I've got to say I think it's probably been over for a long time and you know it. You shouldn't have cheated, feeling unloved or not but my take on this from your initial post is by doing so you've given her the excuse she was looking for to end things. Yes she will miss you, nobody leaves a relationship that's been a huge part of their lives for so many years and doesn't think about and miss their ex partner but as much as this hurts (and trust me I know), I think it's probably over.

[JMichaelHeaton]

Thanks for your answer, Pete. You seem very certain of this - would you mind elaborating?

[Pete2304]

Thanks for your answer, Pete. You seem very certain of this - would you mind elaborating?

 

Yeah mate, I think one of the things that stood out to me was you mentioning about feeling like you repulsed her. I'm sure that's not exactly true but the problem is that once the spark goes I don't think it can ever truly come back. It's like having a romantic meal by candle light but the draft keeps blowing the candles out. You can keep re-lighting them but in the end you just get fed up and put the lights on.

 

With you saying she's gone to sadness now it makes me even more certain I'm afraid mate. Her being sad is because she probably wishes she felt differently. The whole set up of your relationship with all the travel etc was never going to be easy in the very long term and I think whilst she still loves you, she also doesn't want you in the way you want her and your one night stand has probably been the catalyst for something you both knew was on the cards anyway.

 

I can't at all condone your cheating but to an extent I can see why it happened. The reason being, I don't think you truly love her either, just scared of the unknown after such a long time.

[JMichaelHeaton]

Thanks, Pete. Got to disagree, but I can't go into specific details... I don't think that love is gone from either of us to be frank. If anything, I think it was reawakened in me in many ways.

 

Any other takes?

[aileD]

If me and my H can reconcile, it's possible lol.

 

What helped us, was the separation. So maybe this is a blesssing. Here's a few suggestions off the top of my head/experience:

 

-You need to make sure your actions match your words.

-you need to realize you strayed for a reason and that the underlying issues need to be fixed otherwise you are getting back into the same situation.

-you need counseling for yourself to help you understand why you choose (the deeper reasons) to look outside your marriage

-she needs counseling for herself. You can't live with someone who is in mental distress all the time. She has some issues she's going to have to deal with too.

-keep telling and showing her you love her and you know it's. Its not going to be easy but you're willing to put in the effort

 

I hope it works out. I'm a big fan of reconciliation, but it takes both of you to really be on board and work together for it. You can't do it alone. You can for a little while while she is reeling from your betrayal, but once decision is made to reconcile then you both must be completely on board

Edited October 31, 2016 by aileD

[Downtown]

Four years ago she began having anxiety attacks that were soul crushing and would go on for hours. It was soon followed by deep depression and bouts of not leaving the bed, life has no meaning, etc.... she was having suicidal thoughts.

Michael, how long did the depression last? Did she typically recover in 5 to 18 hours or, rather, did her depression last for several weeks? Also, were her suicidal thoughts ever accompanied by self harm (e.g., hitting or cutting herself)?

 

We had this head over heels kind of love, always, but our fights were at times very hurtful and unbearable to me.... She'd often go for the jugular.

Did you oftentimes have the feeling you were living with a woman having two different personalities? That is, when you saw these mood changes, did she flip -- in less than a minute -- between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing, or even hating, you)?

[JMichaelHeaton]

Thanks aileD, I've been doing just that.

 

Downtown, to answer your questions, it seems like she'd never get out of her depressed state. She's swing out of it from time to time, what seemed like, but those good days wouldn't last. So I'm going to say the latter.

 

As for your second question, certainly there were times where she'd say or do something in arguments that would render her unrecognizable to me. If I were to rate the Jekyll-Hyde, if we're going to call it that, I'd say it'd be 5 out of 10. Now that I think about it, it was more obvious before the depression. We'd have a horrific fight and then the next day she'd be the most loving and caring person in the world.

[Downtown]

Certainly there were times where she'd say or do something in arguments that would render her unrecognizable to me. If I were to rate the Jekyll-Hyde, if we're going to call it that, I'd say it'd be 5 out of 10.... We'd have a horrific fight and then the next day she'd be the most loving and caring person in the world.

In that case, Michael, it may be worth your while to take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those red flags sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid taking her back or avoid running into the arms of another woman who is just like her. Moreover, if you decide that most of the warning signs apply strongly to your W's behaviors, I would recommend that you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with.

[JMichaelHeaton]

Downtown, some of this definitely rang true. I'd like to continue our conversation privately, to fill you in on additional details and see what you think. Thanks!

[Downtown]

Michael, PMs are fine with me when an OP is uncomfortable posting private information on the public forum. But, until you've been here several weeks and met a certain post count, you won't be able to PM me. That policy is fairly standard at forum sites to put a damper on spam. But, God willing, I'll still be here in a few weeks.

[JMichaelHeaton]

Thank you, Downtown. I'm clearly new at this - all of this. I don't think I was ever a member of any forum, to be frank.

 

Does anyone else have a take on my situation? It would be greatly appreciated.

[JMichaelHeaton]

UPDATE: After giving me hope for almost three months and about one month before our planned time to see each other (she was/is supposed to travel back), I found out through a set of circumstances and direct questions that she'd slept with someone else and now has plans to see if it will grow into something more serious. She also told me she plans on seeing other men as well.

 

This was a devastating blow. I can't believe she'd tell me she can't wait to see me on one day and then go sleep with someone and go horribly cold on me the next.

 

I went NC and asked her to contact me only when she's ready to give up on other people. I don't know what else to do.

[Marc878]

File. Too much baggage

[ExpatInItaly]

File. Too much baggage

 

Agreed.

 

It's time to leave this relationship forever so you can start fresh, OP. This wasn't going to end well.

[JMichaelHeaton]

Update: Broke NC via messaging after 10 days to give her a piece of my mind after spending the better part of those 10 days drinking, etc. Basically everything that's ever bothered me about our relationship. She called me later that night crying, basically to ask me to stop being cruel.

 

We spoke a few times in the meantime and she's saying now that she not seeing anyone and won't, that she wants to see me and that she wants to give us a chance. I am really, really confused and somewhat hurt by her inability to be a rational human being about any of this. I hate this limbo and want it to be over. We'll have a chance to see each other in three weeks' time, but I simply don't know what happens next. I'm especially worried about all of this being a burden down the line, particularly in terms of her family who think I'm the world's worst person ever...

 

What on Earth is going on?

[Downtown]

We'd have a horrific fight and then the next day she'd be the most loving and caring person in the world.... She'd often go for the jugular.... Four years ago she began having anxiety attacks that were soul crushing and would go on for hours. It was soon followed by deep depression.... I am really, really confused and somewhat hurt by her inability to be a rational human being about any of this.

Michael, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., mood swings, deep depression, suicidal thoughts, anxiety attacks, rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you, and irrational behavior -- sound like you may be describing emotional instability. If so, I note that the two most common causes of such instability are a hormone problem and drug abuse -- neither of which you mention.

 

Hence, if you can rule those two problems out, it would be prudent to consider the two remaining common causes of emotional instability: bipolar disorder and BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). The onset age range for bipolar is 18 to 30 with the average onset age being 25 (but individuals may experience onset well outside that range). In contrast, strong BPD behavior typically starts in the teens. But, for most BPDers, those traits will not be evident during the courtship period because the BPDer's infatuation will hold her two fears at bay, preventing you from triggering them.

 

What on Earth is going on?

I don't know, Michael. I therefore recommend, again, that you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with. If you suspect BPD is an issue, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to not have your W with you when you see the psychologist. Therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of his/her disorder -- for the protection of that client. But, when you are seeing a psychologist who has not seen or treated your W, he is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not those of your W.

 

I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psychologist, you learn how to spot the warning signs for both BPD and bipolar disorder. An easy place to start reading is my post at 12 BPD/Bipolar Differences, which is based on my experiences with a bipolar-1 sufferer (my foster son) and a BPDer (my exW).

 

Please keep in mind that having strong traits of one of these disorders does not rule out having strong traits of the other as well. A person exhibiting bipolar-2 behavior in the past year has a 50% chance of also suffering from full-blown BPD. And a person exhibiting bipolar-1 has a 40% chance of exhibiting BPD as well. See Table 2 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

Moreover, Table 3 of that study shows that 81% of female BPDers have a co-occurring lifetime anxiety disorder -- and 21% have co-occurring lifetime panic disorder (without agoraphobia). I mention these because you describe your W has having severe anxiety starting 4 years ago and having panic attacks whenever you would initiate sex.

[JMichaelHeaton]

Thanks, Downtown. You replied earlier and I've been thinking about what you had said. I spoke to my psychologist (who happens to be of the clinical psychologist variety) and she said that although she can't say if it's BPD because she's never spoken to my partner, she sounds like an emotionally manipulative person with no emotional maturity to speak of who's not even aware of the fact that she's like that and that she's prone to irrational decision-making - basically, everything that she's done in the past months since we became separated was irrational, at least in the words of my therapist. I've confronted my partner with what my therapist had said, and she went on the defensive. Later on, she admitted to some of it, but she still refuses to take any responsibility for all the emotional damage she's been doing, reverting to my actions instead (which I have always maintained were my fault and I've always taken full responsibility for, so at this point there's no purpose in beating me down with that any further).

 

Like I said, this is all too confusing for me, and I waver from being emotionally open and available to her and wanting her back right now to being really cautious and worried that she'll just crush me again.

[Downtown]

My psychologist... said that although she can't say if it's BPD because she's never spoken to my partner, she sounds like an emotionally manipulative person with no emotional maturity to speak of who's not even aware of the fact that she's like that and that she's prone to irrational decision-making.

Michael, no psychologist can render a diagnosis without speaking with your W. A psychologist nonetheless is able to say something like "It sure sounds to me like you may be dealing with...." That, apparently, is what your psychologist was telling you when saying "She sounds like an...."

 

A BPDer typically has the emotional maturity of a 3 or 4 year old child because the disorder froze emotional development at that young age. The result is that the child grows up with a lack of self awareness. And, because the BPDer is too immature to regulate her own emotions, she frequently experiences feelings that are so intense that she is absolutely convinced they MUST be true.

 

Hence, like a young child, a BPDer does not have the maturity to intellectually challenge her intense feelings. Instead, she accepts them as self-evident "facts." This means that any attempt to discuss them rationally and objectively is pointless because the BPDer will grasp for any explanation to explain or justify those feelings. A BPDer's perception of reality thus is whatever intense feelings she is experiencing AT THIS VERY MOMENT.

 

Significantly, three of the behaviors identified by your psychologist -- i.e., "no emotional maturity," "irrational decision-making," and "not even aware of the fact that she's like that" -- are BPD traits. The fourth behavior she mentions -- "emotionally manipulative" -- is a trait more strongly associated with ASPD (Antisocial PD, aka "sociopathy") and NPD (Narcissistic PD).

 

Granted, BPDers are so fearful of abandonment and engulfment that they generally try hard to control their partners' lives. And, in the process of being controlling, they may try hard to be manipulating. They typically are not good at manipulation, however. For manipulation to succeed, there must be careful planning and flawless execution. But BPDers are so impulsive and reactive to whatever intense feeling they are experiencing that they typically are not good at executing such plans.

 

Basically, everything that she's done in the past months since we became separated was irrational, at least in the words of my therapist.

Although your W's behavior has been irrational "in the past months" since you separated, I don't find that information very helpful. It is common for a spouse to exhibit irrational and strange behavior in the months following the discovery that her husband has had a two-month affair.

 

What is more instructive, then, is how your W was behaving for the first six years of your marriage -- before your affair occurred in the 7th year. In that regard, you said that most of her strange behavior began at least four years ago. By "strange behavior," I'm referring to the suicidal thoughts, deep depression, crippling anxiety, and panic attacks you discussed earlier.

[JMichaelHeaton]

Although your W's behavior has been irrational "in the past months" since you separated, I don't find that information very helpful. It is common for a spouse to exhibit irrational and strange behavior in the months following the discovery that her husband has had a two-month affair.

 

Downtown, here I was referring to what my therapist concluded was "completely irrational" behavior, as as of late we were mostly talking about me figuring out how to handle the current situation. I think I've mentioned earlier brutal fights that became a thing fairly early on, but that were drowned in what was essentially an incredibly loving and intimate relationship.

 

I was trying to google and see if there's a correlation between a higher sex drive with BPDers early on in a relationship and apparently there is. But yes, our first six months to two years were amazing in every aspect imaginable (minus the not so occasional all-out war of a fight we'd have). I kind of always thought it was a case of two intelligent people with strong personalities and egos going at each other, so I never thought it might be deeper than that. But three-day fights aren't normal, are they? Although those really kicked in perhaps two to three years into our relationship...

[Downtown]

Downtown, here I was referring to what my therapist concluded was "completely irrational" behavior, as as of late we were mostly talking about me figuring out how to handle the current situation. I think I've mentioned earlier brutal fights that became a thing fairly early on, but that were drowned in what was essentially an incredibly loving and intimate relationship.

You are right, of course. You did mention earlier that the brutal fights started early -- which is one of the reasons I suggested that you familiarize yourself with my list of BPD warning signs to see if they sound very familiar.

 

I was trying to google and see if there's a correlation between a higher sex drive with BPDers early on in a relationship and apparently there is.

With BPDers, the problem is not that their sex drive disappears but, rather, that their two fears return. As I noted above, during the courtship period, a BPDer's infatuation with her partner convinces her that he is the nearly perfect man who has arrived to save her from unhappiness. In that way, the infatuation holds her two fears at bay.

 

The result is that BPDers tend to be very sexual and passionate -- at a level that you've never experienced previously -- during the courtship period. Yet, as soon as the infatuation starts to evaporate, her two fears will return and it will be impossible for you to avoid triggering them. Because one of those fears (engulfment) is triggered by intimacy, it is common for a BPDer to exhibit her very WORST behavior immediately after (or during) the very BEST of times -- i.e., after an intimate evening or great weekend or right in the middle of a fantastic expensive vacation.