The most important thing is respect

[Woggle]

If a woman does not respect her man it is over. I know this sounds sexist but women are attracted to men that they somewhat look up to. Even the most independent woman wants to know that she can depend on the man in her life if need be. She wants to know that he can be the strong one every now and then. Women hate a man that can't make a decision or take charge once in a while. That is why falling apart and crying to win her back never works. Women know that if a man can't take care of himself he will not be able to take care of her. Once a woman knows you can be happy without her it changes the dynamic of the relationship. If you can hold yourself up you can hold her up. That is why women tend to go for jerks. It is because they present an image of strength even if it is just false machismo. It is also why many women attracted to cops, soldiers, firefighters etc. The problem is that feminism and pop culture have been trying to convince that women want a nice senstive man who removes balls and emasculates himself. Many women even convince themselves to think that is what they want but feminism can't erase nature. We have brought this lie hook line and sinker and today have more bitterness than ever between the genders as a result. Women these days look down on men and have disdain for them and men keep trying this wimp routine and wonder why they are unlucky in love. Men need to start being men that women can respect and things will turn around. We need to drop this metrosexual movement and return to being the men we used to be. Also men can be strong and emotional as well. Many great male artists, musicians and creative people were full of emotion but were far from wimps.

[millefiori]

God, I think real men would stop to ponder so much if they're really men or not and just give a .... what women thought about them.

[d'Arthez]

If the wife does not deliver the can of beer while he is watching TV, that is supposedly a reasonably ground for divorce to some men.

[Woggle]

Originally posted by d'Arthez

If the wife does not deliver the can of beer while he is watching TV, that is supposedly a reasonably ground for divorce to some men.

Better than women divorcing to go find themselves.

[millefiori]

You talk as if women are weird creatures that need to get manipulated in order to stay with you. Think about it, would you want a friend who has no spine, who does everything you want, who runs after you, who agrees with everything you say? Probably not.

 

I wouldn't be able to respect a girlfriend who acted like this either.

[d'Arthez]

Millefiori, your reply is contradictory.

 

If a man has to manipulate a woman to stay with him, he has the issues. But how can a woman respect a manipulative b*stard? She can't, unless she were suffering from extreme issues.

[Woggle]

Originally posted by millefiori

You talk as if women are weird creatures that need to get manipulated in order to stay with you. Think about it, would you want a friend who has no spine, who does everything you want, who runs after you, who agrees with everything you say? Probably not.

 

I wouldn't be able to respect a girlfriend who acted like this either.

 

Some women equate niceness with weakness. Some womenthink I am that way because I don't have an assertive personality. I am a laidback and soft spoken guy but I am made of steel inside. I don't say that to brag but I have been on my own since 17 so I can take care of myself.

 

People in general are easily manipulated man or woman. It's how policians get elected. It is about who manipulates the public better.

[jmargel]

Woggle,

 

You are right in why women are into jerks. It's because of that preceived notion. Thing is, those relationships never last. Most women either get fed up, or try to change these 'jerks' into decent men. However that's something they can never do. There will be women before and after them to try and these guys know this. In the mean time they are getting all the pussy they can handle.

 

Myself I am a pretty sensitive guy, and will voice my concern about something that bothers me. I have manners & try to be a gentlemen most of the time. I'm one of those 'nice' guys. However, once pushed past a certain point, I fight. Just because a guy has a soft heart doesn't mean he's a pushover. That doesn't make him a 'wimp'. Often alot of people will intermix the two together and preceive things that way. That's why they say 'Nice guys finish last'. Alot of times women get caught up in the chase and the 'now' part of things.

 

Women, let me let you on a little secret. These 'bad boys', these 'jerks' are truly jerks. I have often heard some of them talk about women to each other like you are just objects. How they conquested her, what she did, how they made her out to be just a slut. The one time it got so bad, I confront the one individual & grabbed him by his collar. There is no reason to talk about someone like that.

 

I think it's also that women don't know what they want. Their minds are constantly changing. Men do this too, but personally I don't believe as much. In all honesty if a guy is a player earlier in his life good chances are he's not going to change. Sad thing is, these players, these jerks know the things to say to you women to make you believe they aren't the jerks they truly are. And the only way for you women to know if they are a slick willy is only after you get burned yourself a few times.

[RecordProducer]

That was a wonderful post, Woogle.

I would just add that men should earn respect, not be respected by default (which you also stated). And they should treat women with respect too just like in the good old days.

[Woggle]

Originally posted by RecordProducer

That was a wonderful post, Woogle.

I would just add that men should earn respect, not be respected by default (which you also stated). And they should treat women with respect too just like in the good old days.

 

Women as well should have to earn respect.

[jmargel]

Originally posted by RecordProducer

That was a wonderful post, Woogle.

I would just add that men should earn respect, not be respected by default (which you also stated). And they should treat women with respect too just like in the good old days.

 

Although men should treat women with respect just like the 'good old days', today's norms of society have greatly differed since then. That or it was just hidden alot better. Such as the roles of women today compared to what they were back in the 1950s. I'm not talking about careers, etc.. I'm talking about how women view marriage from back then and now. Today it's too easy to get a divorce, too easy to throw a lawyer a couple of bucks so that one may reap rewards in alimony and move onto the next guy. It's too easy to have society accept unacceptable behavior from young teens/adults when they have children that they are not ready for. It's too easy nowadays to do what would be considered immoral or even taboo back then due to society turning a blind eye and now expecting such behavior.

 

When one looks at marriage in general the value of it IMO is diminished to where it standards were back 40-50 years ago.

 

During my single years, alot of just the dating and getting to know someone was just a game. Alot of people have taken the approach that they have or will get screwed over sometime in life by someone, so why not give it back. This is where the attitude of 'players' come from.

 

It's hard to respect each other when in general society as a whole doesn't respect it's own.

[Woggle]

Originally posted by jmargel

Although men should treat women with respect just like the 'good old days', today's norms of society have greatly differed since then. That or it was just hidden alot better. Such as the roles of women today compared to what they were back in the 1950s. I'm not talking about careers, etc.. I'm talking about how women view marriage from back then and now. Today it's too easy to get a divorce, too easy to throw a lawyer a couple of bucks so that one may reap rewards in alimony and move onto the next guy. It's too easy to have society accept unacceptable behavior from young teens/adults when they have children that they are not ready for. It's too easy nowadays to do what would be considered immoral or even taboo back then due to society turning a blind eye and now expecting such behavior.

 

When one looks at marriage in general the value of it IMO is diminished to where it standards were back 40-50 years ago.

 

During my single years, alot of just the dating and getting to know someone was just a game. Alot of people have taken the approach that they have or will get screwed over sometime in life by someone, so why not give it back. This is where the attitude of 'players' come from.

 

It's hard to respect each other when in general society as a whole doesn't respect it's own.

 

I fully agree. Marriage and divorce are the modern woman's hustle. Very few women actually want a loving and long lasting marriage. It is all about what they can get out of the man. I respect women who deserve respect.

[Woggle]

Another thing I might add. Women complain all the time about where are all the real men at or they complain about how chivalry is dead but women killed chivalry.

 

Women are the ones that have told men over and over again that they don't need us they are better off without us

Women are the ones that go around saying all men are dogs

Women are the ones that starting viewing men as walking wallets and sperm machines

Women are the ones that started preaching that men are disposable

Women are the ones that published a newsweek article last year glorifying cheating women as being sexually liberated.

Women are the ones that made male bashing a national pastime

Women are the ones that get mad at men for holding open doors

Women are the ones that said fathers don't matter

 

This being said women should not get mad and complain that men don;t repsct women anymore or that we don't treat them like lady like we used to. The modern men that women so despise are the products of the feminist movement which tried to neuter men. They are the products of fatherless boys being raised with no good male role model. So when women complain about the lack of good men today I have to shake my head. They spent years trying to destroy everything that made a man a man and now they complain that there aren't any real men around anymore. They made their bed now they should lay in it. Also the few real men that are left are hip to the games women play and won't let themselves be suckered.

[RecordProducer]

Guys, as long as you see women as the opposite team (and not the opposite sex), you won't be able to find a good woman. Your heart needs to be open and cherish faith in love. Otherwise you will only hook up with the same type of women like yourself - those who see men as enemies.

[millefiori]

Originally posted by d'Arthez

Millefiori, your reply is contradictory.

 

If a man has to manipulate a woman to stay with him, he has the issues. But how can a woman respect a manipulative b*stard? She can't, unless she were suffering from extreme issues.

Ok, I re-read my reply and it might have appeared a bit contradictory. Let me clarify. Woggle made the claim that the opposite of a doormat was a jerk who forces women to respect him. That behavior though is not true self-confidence (which is what women like), it only makes them believe that the guy has this desired quality and I'm pretty sure sooner or later they find out (the smart ones at least).

 

Woggle also seemed to be surprised that women did not feel attracted to men who showed doormat-attitude and doormat-behavior. I tried to point out that no one likes doormats, whether they are men who run after you or your friends.

 

If you really respect yourself and your girlfriend you don't need to pretend anything to keep her.

[millefiori]

Originally posted by Woggle

Some women equate niceness with weakness. Some womenthink I am that way because I don't have an assertive personality. I am a laidback and soft spoken guy but I am made of steel inside. I don't say that to brag but I have been on my own since 17 so I can take care of myself.

 

People in general are easily manipulated man or woman. It's how policians get elected. It is about who manipulates the public better.

I like that a lot. I still think though that you're quite bitter at the moment and you're heading into the wrong direction.

[Woggle]

Originally posted by RecordProducer

Guys, as long as you see women as the opposite team (and not the opposite sex), you won't be able to find a good woman. Your heart needs to be open and cherish faith in love. Otherwise you will only hook up with the same type of women like yourself - those who see men as enemies.

I really try seeing things your way and in a perfect world you would be right. If you do not fit the description of the women I talk about don't get offended because I am not talking about you. That being said I find myself becoming more and more disgusted by modern women. To me most of them are just not worth it. That is why I don't think men should get married. Why when she will just walk out of your life anyway and most likely she will be getting money from you.

[scratch]

Originally posted by Woggle

If a woman does not respect her man it is over. I know this sounds sexist but women are attracted to men that they somewhat look up to. Even the most independent woman wants to know that she can depend on the man in her life if need be. She wants to know that he can be the strong one every now and then. Women hate a man that can't make a decision or take charge once in a while.

 

I agree, but don't really understand the point of your thread. If you feel this way, behave this way, and accept the fact that some people won't like you, romantically or otherwise.

 

Originally posted by Woggle

The problem is that feminism and pop culture have been trying to convince that women want a nice senstive man who removes balls and emasculates himself. Many women even convince themselves to think that is what they want but feminism can't erase nature. We have brought this lie hook line and sinker and today have more bitterness than ever between the genders as a result. Women these days look down on men and have disdain for them and men keep trying this wimp routine and wonder why they are unlucky in love. Men need to start being men that women can respect and things will turn around.

 

While the "brainwashing" of which you speak does occur to a great extent, the more basic problem is male discipline. First of all, if one is are emasculated around a woman, and is over the age of 17, it's not because he's trying to be the man she wants. It's because he likes her, and can't control himself to not beg for her affections. Most of us here know what to do, but fail to do it, because of poor self control and a lack of willingness to accept that someone isn't into us and just move on. Admittedly, I often fall into this category, and try very hard to work on it.

 

One step towards being a man is accepting responsibility when your life isn't where you want it to be.

[RecordProducer]

Originally posted by Woggle

I really try seeing things your way and in a perfect world you would be right. If you do not fit the description of the women I talk about don't get offended because I am not talking about you. That being said I find myself becoming more and more disgusted by modern women.

 

I know, I hear that from guys all the time. I don't consider myself modern in many ways.

[scratch]

Originally posted by RecordProducer

Guys, as long as you see women as the opposite team (and not the opposite sex), you won't be able to find a good woman. Your heart needs to be open and cherish faith in love. Otherwise you will only hook up with the same type of women like yourself - those who see men as enemies.

 

I am generally cynical and wary of the opposite sex. However, I wouldn't mind being with a woman who was generally mistrustful of men, and cynical about relationships. The only caveat is that she would have to treat me in an accountable, professional manner while taking the months or years it takes to see me as someone who could be trusted. Of course, I would be willing to treat her similarly.

 

Yes, this would take longer, but would be a relationship built on a history of proving each other's accountability.

[RecordProducer]

So Scratch, you cherish the theory that everyone is guilty until they prove they're innocent?

[scratch]

Originally posted by RecordProducer

So Scratch, you cherish the theory that everyone is guilty until they prove they're innocent?

 

Cherish may not be the ideal term, but I'm perfectly happy to have someone take their sweet time before trusting me, so long as in the interim they don't abuse my trust.

 

Example: I date girl X, who was sexually assaulted by her last boyfriend. She doesn't feel comfortable being alone with me in private. I would be willing to date her for up to three or four months under those conditions, so long as she didn't blow me off, cancel plans, talk about other guys or flirt in front of me, etc.

[jmargel]

Morals in both men and women have suffered greatly during these past decades. When you turn on the news at night, what do you see? Reports of violence, murder, kids being raped, etc.. It's because that is what sells. It what brings in the public's interest. Why have shows like Jerry Springer? Because it's entertaining, it's drama it's something to look forward to. We have taken what should be the unusual and made it the mainstream. You then have women who take this and make it their lives. They live for drama, the excitement of the moment, the soap-operaness and in the meantime they don't care who gets hurt.

 

I had a friend who went out on a date with a chick, only to get turned down when he asked her out again. Her reason was because 'He was too nice'. Try to explain that one? Personally I don't know what women want in a man and how they want them to act. Are we suppose to not act nice? Can we be too nice? Or should there be days where we aren't and then be labeled as moody? Can you still be a Gentleman and be respected by the one you are with, without being taken advantage of? What happens if you are too generous, is your partner then turned off by the lack of the chase? It's like walking a tightrope and what makes it more difficult is that every woman is different. What woman A wants can be totally opposite from what woman B wants. So just as you think you have it nailed down you basically mess up again.

 

Personally I'd really like to just see what goes through some of the minds of women nowadays. Today's love has become so conditional due to the change of society.

[d'Arthez]

Please spare me the moral debates!

 

Media coverage suggests that crime is on the increase. For almost all stats it is actually on the decrease. Media coverage has become so extensively that we believe that the situation is getting worse every single day. Punishments have become a lot more severe. But serving a prison term of 20 years does not have a positive impact on your prospects once you get out. Because you have a legal record, chances for employment are even more limited - thus effectively encouraging the criminal to choose a career in crime again.

 

What is morality? It is not something which all human beings agree on. Even in the case of murder, the motivation people have why murder is bad, differs widely. It always has differed widely. Most people seem to define justice as: "Any decision taken that is in my favor."

 

People in the 1950's were not enlightened. Nowadays they are not either. Affairs happened. Abuse happened. Everything that happened in the past, happens nowadays too. Nowadays people don't have to take the shyt as much as in the past. They can leave unhealthy situations.

 

Love is always conditional, if it is not sheer necessity. Necessity is less of a factor nowadays for women, as they are able to find employment for themselves, in good paying jobs (provided they have the qualifications). A man's role is more than a living paycheck. Just as a woman's role is more than taking care of DH (Darling/ Dim-wit Husband) and the kids, be subservenient to him and cater to all of his whims.

 

Ever wondered why it was common practice to blame the women for sexual dysfunctions?

 

Women and men have actually something to choose. If you want to date a party-style girl, do not invite her for a concert of classical music, with the idea that you can reform her. Don't behave with some 19th century behavioral patterns. It will not work. If you have the idea that the Republican Party represents everything that is great about the US don't waste your time on a passionate member of the Green Party. Why people think situations like this can work, is beyond me.

Why men and women have the idea that they should get along with everyone, is also something that is beyond me.

[millefiori]

I don't know the exact stats, but as far as I remember they showed that in the States the number of people sitting in prison has increased over the years and the number of juvenile offenders has also risen.