What does this sound like ... ?

[merrmeade]

How exactly is "its really quiet out here." Inapproriate? he is a seriel cheater so every conversation he has with the opposite gender is going to seem nefarious. I asked my husband though just to be sure because I know I'm a "cheater" and without me saying my comment about it being like talking about the weather, he also compared it to that.

Also need to explain the comment: It IS quiet out here. That was the first comment out of MY mouth - "It's so quiet!" - when I got out of the car to look at the house the first time. Then we bought it. He'd actually visited it before and said it was too far of a drive from everything (kids, stores, city life), but the realtor kept sending the listing to us. I said I wanted to see it, promptly fell in love with - the quiet, and kept talking about it.

 

So he's actually quoting me and focusing on an aspect of it that I'd highlighted and championed - something he does sometimes (claim an idea or sentiment he got from someone else) - when he says, "It's really quiet out here." The question is why is saying it to her?

 

So I researched their contact by phone, email and text. Not that much there actually (I was mistaken about numbers and the length of the phone calls - different number - doh!). But it does not negate the FACT of his sleazy familiarity.

 

I did not make enough of this tendency before. Lion Heart completely gets it and knows exactly what I'm talking about - "all the little things they do to groom" - "groom" being the key word here.

 

This is probably the most disturbing behavior of all to me when I look back at his behavior. I have the proof in emails over the years besides my memory. When he needed something from a woman that he could sense was vulnerable, yes, he 'groomed' her. I saw it in emails with my sister-in-law OW he depended on for work during a low ebb or with a colleague he was hoping would recommend him for a position in her firm. In general actually, I realized after Dday that I'd seen him 'groom' any female whose adoration, desire, attention he could potentially garner. It was as if they all fulfilled the same need. From the beginning, he said "flattery" was the 'reason' for every single attraction and wayward behavior we discussed. That is the need.

 

I think the 'grooming' is unconscious, practiced, second nature and just who he is and always was as a man. And this is why he needs help. It just makes me a more than a little sick and resentful to have to be the one to give it.

 

You might say I should be more humble - that we all have a character weakness that we need to work on. This is just his, and - granted - I totally agree that he's done everything he knew how to do to deal with it. But "everything" was simply be a hermit. Don't interact. Stay away from women. Period. This is what he said to me was his solution.

 

So not calling a spade a spade is going to niggle at me and make me respect him less and less. I can't live with that either. But I'm hesitating to bring it up, like mcbride said - thinking about it - because I want the conversation to be productive and for him to be open. I want him to gain insight and admit to himself that this could be part of an old pattern. I don't want to put him on the defensive and not just because the altercation could be unpleasant but because I'll respect and love him less if he doesn't.

 

HOWEVER, I have to give him this: In the past 4 years since dDay, whatever way I have brought up or talked about issues and regardless of his initial reaction, he ALWAYS changes the next day and for some time to come, becoming subdued, attentive, kind, non-confrontational. It's as if he wakes up later realizing I was right.

 

So thinking...

[Noirek]

I guess this is probably one of those slight cultural difference. Where 8 miles is considered the same area and the comment is just regular old friendliness that everyone has whether they wear a scarlet A target on their back or not. Where I live is quite rural and remote. No so rural that everyone knows everyone but the people you interact with all tend to have friendly conversations whether you are buying socks from them, having contract work or standing in line at the grocery store. It is something you grow used to that it always startles you when you see not everyone in North America lives in that way.

 

Therefore, since being friendly with a client and making mundane comments is not actually the norm but rather flirty did you confront? I know your H never really got how much he hurt you and it is with that in my I worried about confrontation. Also mentioned that there is no such thing as nipping an affair in the bud. No one wants to live with a spouse where their hyper vigilance is the only thing that keeps their spouse from cheating. But then again if you confronted him did it show he is understanding a little better what he did to you?

[merrmeade]

I think you have a right to tell your husband if his behavior is making you upset. And you have a right to be upset even if it is innocent on his part. You can explain to him that you are worried about the boundaries he has with women. Maybe the two of you could brain storm something that would help ease your fears.

Absolutely have a right.

 

IF this gets posted (having trouble for some reason), just want to address the word "innocent," which we're all kind of dancing around - from LH's no-holds-barred interpretation to others' generous give-him-the benefit-of-the-doubt. Whatever the interpretation, this tests the one character trait that makes us oil and water:

—My preference for acknowledgement / straight talk / clarity / respect / truth hits him as confrontation / drama / disrespect / accusatory.

—His tact / diplomacy / suggestion / subtlety smacks of avoidance / denial / pride / manipulation to me. I have to work at how to approach it, think about how to open it up.

[Mr. Lucky]

Also need to explain the comment: It IS quiet out here. That was the first comment out of MY mouth - "It's so quiet!" - when I got out of the car to look at the house the first time. Then we bought it. He'd actually visited it before and said it was too far of a drive from everything (kids, stores, city life), but the realtor kept sending the listing to us. I said I wanted to see it, promptly fell in love with - the quiet, and kept talking about it.

 

So he's actually quoting me and focusing on an aspect of it that I'd highlighted and championed - something he does sometimes (claim an idea or sentiment he got from someone else) - when he says, "It's really quiet out here." The question is why is saying it to her?

 

So I researched their contact by phone, email and text. Not that much there actually (I was mistaken about numbers and the length of the phone calls - different number - doh!). But it does not negate the FACT of his sleazy familiarity.

 

Do you mean his history of "sleazy familiarity" or its manifestation in this case? Because while I certainly understand the former (I'm guessing he wasn't designing your SIL's house), i just don't see it in the latter.

 

"It's really quiet out here" is a description of the locale, not of him. It simply reaffirms her decision to build/remodel in the area. Had he said "I like to go hiking on the weekends", different story.

 

I feel for you merrmeade, tough place to be. When you're parsing sentences to this extent, not sure how either one of you are happy with the result...

 

Mr. Lucky

[merrmeade]

So I told him. Didn't go so well. He didn't see it, didn't agree it's an issue, but as per usual - real sweet later.

 

But new development: A client has bought H a ticket to [an island]. H asked me once if I wanted to go, but failed to act on it. Even our son, pushing him to buy me a ticket and arrange it, didn't faze him. Suddenly I realized tonight this is also kinda big.

 

So I've written him this email but haven't sent it yet. Reactions?

 

I resort to emails when we can't talk.

 

First: the trip.

- This was a convergence of circumstance and opportunity you simply missed. [son1] was trying to help us - to tell you it was the right thing to do by me - but you didn't pick up on his suggestion. He was unusually emphatic and animated, in fact, said "you should do it" [buy me a ticket] 3 or 4 times and insisted that you "call [client] tomorrow," etc. I really don't understand where your sons learned how to be such attentive, sensitive husbands, but they are.

 

What he seems to know is that it would have been nice for me and it IS the decent, normal thing to do - not necessarily take me, but to make a goodfaith effort to do so. Conversely, not even trying is thoughtless indifference and looks bad on you. You did ask me once, but that's actually worse because you quickly dropped it. There wasn't much interest, so you didn't follow up.

 

There's no good solution. Up to now, it's not been a concern for you. And now that I see that I'm an afterthought, I don't know how you could convince me otherwise. If you tried to arrange it now, you'd resent it.

 

Second: the weird text message with your client that you can't even acknowledge.

- I've read that couples in healthy marriages talk about boundaries. We don't, yet you seem to assume that I should trust the zero explanation of your understanding of what they should be. All I know is that you did not have good boundaries before, and I have no new information. I do see that for some years you removed yourself completely from the possibility which is different from developing a way to deal with it.

 

Now, you have this other situation. Texting with a client should be for the purpose of exchanging information. The address was information. Sharing an aspect of your personal life that she'd not asked about along with your address is not relevant information. It's a non-sequitur, unexpected and random. And you don't do spontaneous, so I don't believe it's an impulsive caprice. Even if it wasn't a suggestive invitation, it drops a sudden, unsolicited intimacy between you.

 

Then when I ask you about it, you claim that she's not attractive, that she's much younger, that you were answering her question.None of these are true, as you indicate later.

 

But how did we even get there?? Why can't you just discuss it openly. Why are you denying and minimizing? That very fact makes it sound like there IS something to hide. Why is that your first instinct? And, no, it's not my fault; I didn't make you.

 

Do you remember that email I wrote you from the cabin when you made the absurd excuse that you and [OW] were "friends mostly"?

• Anything you had to hide from anyone, any question you could not answer ... if you evaded, avoided or omitted, it was wrong. 100% wrong.
  
• Your need to evade, avoid, omit? Or worse, saying you evaded, etc. because I and others would be "uncomfortable" with it? This was your own signal ...
  
• Even if you think you can justify having an opposite sex friendship outside of your marriage ... what about the other part? The leftover after "mostly"... is why prudent people have boundaries. Social taboos. Rules. Mores. Norms. No one is above them. Circumstances do not change this. There can be no "mostly."

This is why sharing out of the blue an emotive reference to a personal experience with a female client is crossing boundaries. This is the kind of talking that other couples do and we don't.

 

I don't want to accuse you. I don't want to embarrass you. I don't want to say "Aha!" I just wish you wouldn't act like it's normal and innocent and would talk about it.

Edited November 7, 2016 by merrmeade

[Miss Clavel]

wait, what?

 

i was going to say that "it's very quiet out here" means my wife hasn't got a clue.

 

and for you to stay "quiet". watch and wait and don't let on.

 

now he's got a trip planned is not inclined to take you with him?

 

who else is going?

 

is there a way to go by her house and see if she's home during the time that he's away?

 

cuz, i'd be snooping. including his phone.

[Lion Heart]

Gosh it really takes me back this stepping around the WH.

 

The KNOWING that however it's handled, there's going to be ALL that whatever....

 

And afterwards anyway what changes? Nothing....back to square 1.

 

It pays no dividends to one in this situation of yours (my past ones) to say "What you've done upsets me because...." because it's all OUR fault.

 

POINTEDLY DESCRIBING the behaviours like a Task Analysis to WH may? IDK...

 

I remember the exMIL saying to me "So WHAT HE'S NEVER allowed to help a woman with her GROCERIES?"

lol well he didn't help his W with them lol.

 

But he NEVER helped an old man. Or a disabled person or a myriad of OP WHO OBVIOUSLY could use somw help...or at least OFFER to them.

 

No.

WHs long CHECKLIST was finely tuned to WHOM he would "help".

Vjj - tick

No H - HUGE tick

No bf - yeah find out more

Home alot - awesome

Unemployed (and vulnerable to his lies) - oh yeah GOTCHA etcetera etcetera bs etcetera

 

WH could ELICIT ALL KINDS of information from "casual chats" to text to talking etcetera.

 

He was a studied Master at the disgusting art of grooming. Sometimes he worked on one woman for YEARS. In fact MANY women simultaneously for years.

 

See how the tendrils of the octopus multiply and sneak into ANY desperate place? Keeping them ALL on front burners as much as he could.

 

Some men fall over a woman and think yeah she'll do for a quickie.

Others work long and hard to get their next victims ripe for them.

 

I'd say something asap to stop this awful feeling inside of you Mermaid because it's YOU who matters most here.

 

Lion Heart

[BluesPower]

First, he is out of line without a doubt. I don't know where your marriage is but really, this is not good. Is he cheating again? Maybe, Maybe not. But this stuff is not cool.

 

Second, having said the above, one of the things that I believe will break me and my wife up is her initial reaction in every confrontation to lie. It is just what she does. I her case, I believe that it is because she hid her drug addiction from me for so long. One way that she did it was just lying all the time. I often wonder if she believes the BS that she tells me. Now days, I just take a deep breath and explain why what she just said was a lie. Would she like to try again this time with a truthful answer.

 

This is exhausting. They just wear you out with this stuff. In my case I just think it is the way she is, I will never change her and I am not sure she will change. Just another reason to go ahead with the divorce.

 

Third, I hate to say it, and while I am not openly sexually flirty, I am really bad about flirting by being nice to woman. Even when I am not cheating it is some kind of habit I have developed. Frankly I love to engage them in conversation and get to know them. Women always react positively to whatever type of style it is, and even though I am not sleeping around at the moment, I still catch myself chatting with women when I really should not.

 

So as to your husband: Maybe he is still cheating and maybe not. I will bet that he is in the habit of talking to women when he really should not.

 

The lying and being overtly obtuse about right and wrong, could be a bad habit that he developed.

 

I know this does not answer any questions but maybe it helps with perspective.

[Noirek]

The trip thing would hurt me very deeply if it happened to me. However you mentioned that "there wasn't much interest" interest from you? When he asked you, how did you react to his invitation? Because I know there is no way my husband would go on a trip without me... but I'm the trip person not him. Therefore if he mentioned it I'd be all over that making sure it happened. However my parents are people who this could occur with in the sense of poor communication between them. She wouldn't jump on the invite. Maybe wanting dad to express a desire for her to go and such. In dad's mind he's assumed she wasn't interested. Time would pass and then no trip for Mom would happen. Because my dad still hasn't figured out she would like him to express a desire to spend time together. And my mom still hasn't figured out how to actually use her words at times. Or she uses so many words and flip flops sometimes her meaning gets lost. In the end though she does suffer more because dad would go on the trip and enjoy himself. He probably would miss her but not enough to ruin his time. And all she would have wanted was him to have expressed a strong desire to be together. So she would be feeling that plus being left at home.

Your comment about you don't know where your son's learned it may be true in your mind but it is a barb and insulting not the sort of thing to open someone up to your point of view. Sharp digs like that shut down communication.if you must say it You could just say our sons are kind and attentive husbands and he should be proud of them.

[heartwhole]

I think communication is the key, and also envisioning what you want your marriage to look like and making sure that you aren't getting in the way of that yourself. If he makes an overture to take you on the trip now, then accept the olive branch and have a good attitude about it. Or decline to go but assign positive motives to the gesture. Because otherwise you are participating in a vicious cycle with no solution, as you said in your email. I agree with Noirek that little barbs and saying "there's no good solution here" is just setting you up for more resentment between the two of you. Try instead to imagine reaching a conclusion that pleases both of you.

 

If you are still feeling triggered by the "It's quiet out here" comment, then dig into the root of that. Do you feel that you can't trust his judgment? Do you expect him to respond to all females with only rote, bare-bones responses? Do you feel rankled by the thought that this woman might have interpreted it as being overly friendly? Do you believe your husband meant it flirtatiously? Is this really about him doing the wrong thing, or you having unresolved feelings about past choices?

 

We had a similar blip this summer where my husband thought that text messaging and lunch with a single woman (that he had not mentioned to me) was OK because other people were included. I felt, mostly irrationally, like I had caught him on the cusp of another affair. I felt, mostly irrationally, that this woman might think my charming, extroverted husband was into her, and my pride was not having it. I felt, quite justifiably, that he hadn't really worked through what boundaries and open communication with me meant.

 

He thought that since HE knew he didn't want to have an affair with her, then his actions were OK. He thought since others were included, it was OK. I said, but SHE doesn't know that you are only "group" friends! She has your number! She's had lunch with you! He immediately blocked her number and told the mutual friend that he wouldn't be messaging with a single woman anymore because he wanted to stay married. I felt sheepish about that -- in my prior life I was never the jealous wife type. But what's more important now is my feeling of security and his overtures of openness and good faith.

 

So yes, discuss those boundaries, find out how you will share things with each other. But this type of interaction is a push/pull between the two of you. Try to balance that out with a coming together, like taking the trip. Try to give him the benefit of the doubt that you want him to give to you, and let him see that what is underneath your concern is not an urge to control him but a vulnerability and concern about being hurt again. We had an event this weekend where I would have been somewhat justified in thinking my husband was being selfish in wanting us to spend precious family time that way, but instead I went with it, and he was overjoyed and appreciative and I realized just how much he does want to share his whole life with me, and how much of his end of this mess has been because of his insecurities about not being wanted.

 

I believe in the virtuous cycle . . . in working towards the type of marriage you want. Sometimes I tell my husband he is a good man, even though part of my heart still hurts from when he just wasn't. Because I know he really wants to be a good man and is trying to be so, and he will never be motivated to become better if all I do is sit around reminding him of when he wasn't.

[Mr. Lucky]

The trip thing would hurt me very deeply if it happened to me. However you mentioned that "there wasn't much interest" interest from you? When he asked you, how did you react to his invitation?

 

There wasn't much interest, so you didn't follow up.

 

I took this to mean there wasn't much interest from her H. If she means she wanted him to fight through her resistance, not clear communication from either party.

 

merrmeade, is this "island" trip ticket ostensibly part of a job?

 

Mr. Lucky

[ChickiePops]

Wow. A trip is very, very different from a potentially innocent trip. So..yeah, you're husband's being very shady.

[Regretful one]

Ill only throw my two cents in here because this was something I just worked through - sort of last week. Id be interested in knowing if I handled it correctly.

 

Last week while I was with my wife during regular business hours I took a call. She was next to me and I assume could hear the conversation from both me and the woman on the other end of the phone. The woman was the personal assistant to a guy who I had met in the past about a project. That project never went anywhere at that time. Then out of the blue he has his assistant contacted me wanting me to fly me to another state to look at his property and potentially get started on this project. The woman asked my availability on a certain date and I looked at my wife who seemed indifferent to me going. I told her I could make the trip and they would cover my expenses for the flight, rental car etc.. It would be a one day trip (fly there and back same day). I hung up. Talked to my wife about the opportunity (really good project). I asked her if she would want to go. She said no. I only take a couple trips like this a year so its not all that common for me.

 

The next day the female assistant emailed me the particulars. I responded and copied my wife saying I would make the trip and to go ahead and purchase the plane tickets, car etc..

 

Last Friday I took the trip. I texted my wife when I could but it was minimal during our meeting. I texted her often when I wasn't meeting. Flew home.

 

My wife didn't tell me she was concerned or that she even wanted to go. I actually felt fortunate that this woman called me while my wife was right there as I know trust is a big issue right now. I had hoped by copying her with the correspondence about the trip would set her mind at ease. The email had a business name, address and contact phone number so I had thought to myself if my wife was concerned she could check into it.

 

Since the trip nothing has been said about it. So I'm left to believe that my wife had no issue with it. I just wonder if I should of some how went a step further in some way. Im not sure what that might have been but Im wanting to make life easier on her not add to any worry or pain. I would tend to think taking a trip 10 weeks past d-day would be a trigger but it didn't seem to be.

[merrmeade]

Your comment about you don't know where your son's learned it may be true in your mind but it is a barb and insulting not the sort of thing to open someone up to your point of view. Sharp digs like that shut down communication.if you must say it You could just say our sons are kind and attentive husbands and he should be proud of them.

I knew it was just a matter of time before someone would hold me accountable for it. Just felt good to say it to someone.

[merrmeade]

Regretful One:

 

Yep that pretty much sums up how it was. He did ask me initially. But I changed my mind pretty fast and told him I would like to go, that it sounded fabulous. He didn't follow up, but we also went through a move right after that. Extremely disruptive event which put everything except the most pressing issues on the back burner.

 

Still, the most important thing for me on reading YOUR experience with the same type of development is YOUR bending over backwards to be sensitive to your wife's response. That doesn't happen with us. No bending over backwards with things like this. Other things, yes.

 

heartwhole:

 

I am SO glad you are weighing in with such attention and detail in your analysis, suggestions and examples. I'll return to yours again and again to think about how we communicate and what our potential ideal is.

 

Noirek:

 

As always, I pay close attention to your comments and reactions. I always see something that expands my understanding of this area and people in general.

 

mcbride:

 

"- give yourself some time to think, and then talk to him" has been the most helpful single piece of advice I've gotten. I'm impulsive - this was needed

 

Lion Heart:

 

I'm glad you're beginning to realize how much you know and have to offer. Glad I'm on the receiving end. It was bound to happen.

 

Mr. Lucky:

 

Uncomfortable but - for that - timely, useful and challenging. Thank you.

 

mikeylo:

 

"I change my body language, my tone" is what I'm glad to hear. Some men DO know how to do this then...

 

Miss C:

 

He's not involved. Believe me. I check everything. That's not the issue. The issue is -

why isn't he more sensitive to how his words, actions and sensibilities affect me AND other people (specifically other women)?

why is he still defensive?

 

He really thinks - said, in fact - nothing is ever going to happen again. iow, he'll never have another affair. But he doesn't think about whether he'll ever do/say/be inappropriate with another woman, what his boundaries are, how it affects me that he's not careful, what he can/should do to reassure me.

Edited November 7, 2016 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

Wow. A trip is very, very different from a potentially innocent trip. So..yeah, you're husband's being very shady.

As I said to Miss C, it's not whether he's up to something that's the issue. It's the shock that he still practices denial and seems indifferent to how it affects me.

[merrmeade]

We just had a discussion about everything that was more contentious than usual. He finally explained the context of the remark - which he hadn't done the first time I brought it up. They had been talking right before the text in question about our new house because she needed the address to send some document.

 

Finally an explanation. I said that makes more sense than to say it out of the blue but I still don't see how "it's really quiet out here" was relevant. I said I think it opens up the friendship aspect of the client/professional relationship. However, it's now so far gone that he won't ever be able to look at it objectively.

 

I mentioned that we'd never discussed boundaries before. He got sarcastic and said he won't talk about anything personal ever, he won't take any more female clients, etc. To summarize, he basically indicated he felt unjustly accused by my issue with his remark.

 

About the trip - he doesn't get how he has a right asking the client about bringing his wife along. He's not sure he's going. Etc. In other words, status quo, nothing changed.

 

To summarize, we sure as fk don't communicate, but I knew that. However, this was the first time that I really felt nothing at his angry reaction - no anxiety, no emotion except annoyance.

 

Sadly, it did not move us any closer to mutual understanding and he solidified his stand in denial and his conviction that I'm just trouble maker.

 

Yeah, yeah. We need marriage counseling. Don't I know...

[heartwhole]

I'm sorry it didn't go well. I hope that starting the conversation will at least lead to better communication and understanding down the road. If your response was different this time -- feeling sort of detached when he was angry and deflecting -- then maybe you are on the road to changing the cycle. You had a better handle on what a constructive response from him would like and were able to not take his inability to give you one personally. Baby steps, perhaps?

 

I think we've fought more in the last 19 months since DD than we did in the whole rest of our 18 years together. And that's hard. Sometimes there's just so much pain and anger and we can't figure out how to reach out to each other. But on the other hand, at least we're talking about this stuff. We're not letting the resentment build but are changing our patterns. There are growing pains associated with that.

[MidnightBlue1980]

Ill only throw my two cents in here because this was something I just worked through - sort of last week. Id be interested in knowing if I handled it correctly.

 

Last week while I was with my wife during regular business hours I took a call. She was next to me and I assume could hear the conversation from both me and the woman on the other end of the phone. The woman was the personal assistant to a guy who I had met in the past about a project. That project never went anywhere at that time. Then out of the blue he has his assistant contacted me wanting me to fly me to another state to look at his property and potentially get started on this project. The woman asked my availability on a certain date and I looked at my wife who seemed indifferent to me going. I told her I could make the trip and they would cover my expenses for the flight, rental car etc.. It would be a one day trip (fly there and back same day). I hung up. Talked to my wife about the opportunity (really good project). I asked her if she would want to go. She said no. I only take a couple trips like this a year so its not all that common for me.

 

The next day the female assistant emailed me the particulars. I responded and copied my wife saying I would make the trip and to go ahead and purchase the plane tickets, car etc..

 

Last Friday I took the trip. I texted my wife when I could but it was minimal during our meeting. I texted her often when I wasn't meeting. Flew home.

 

My wife didn't tell me she was concerned or that she even wanted to go. I actually felt fortunate that this woman called me while my wife was right there as I know trust is a big issue right now. I had hoped by copying her with the correspondence about the trip would set her mind at ease. The email had a business name, address and contact phone number so I had thought to myself if my wife was concerned she could check into it.

 

Since the trip nothing has been said about it. So I'm left to believe that my wife had no issue with it. I just wonder if I should of some how went a step further in some way. Im not sure what that might have been but Im wanting to make life easier on her not add to any worry or pain. I would tend to think taking a trip 10 weeks past d-day would be a trigger but it didn't seem to be.

 

I think you handled it fine. I am also a fWS and business owner. My husband actually feels uncomfortable if I go too much out of my way to reassure him about things he is not even thinking about. The fact of the matter is, if you are worried your spouse will cheat the second you turn your head, anything will seem suspicious. xMM is not allowed to have an email, join a gym or go anywhere other than work and home and our organization (which she is making him quit). On the other hand, I have complete and total freedom. I got a clean slate. I feel I am less likely to do it again than xMM as he views it as a prison cell and she the warden.

 

Anyway, just follow your wife's lead. It seems you did fine.

[understand50]

merrmeade,

 

As you said, you both have issues communicating. I wonder if you both talk past each other and do not get to any real issues, with both coming out frustrated, or worse yet, thinking you have your point across. I know for many years, my wife and I, did the same thing. It is hard to talk about hard things and not let emotions get in, of become mad and then shuting down all communication. Add your husband not really getting "it", and I see where you are in a quandary. If you are sure nothing is going on, and he is being transparent, I suggest you play the long game. Look for steps that help and head in the right direction, but do not look for the big fix now. Think strategic, how can I help him with his "marriage" skills, and also have more peace with him? I would work on communication, and as you may remember, I am a big proponent of once each month "all in" talk, where all issue can be discussed, but anything contentious left for the next talk. Seems to work for us, as it allows us both to have a say, but not have things thrown at each other in the mean time. Just a thought, each couple is different, but its a idea.

 

I think the main issue goes back to your husband not really be able to understand just what he did. Sure he knows in a wide sense, but you never thought he got it and knew how to make it better. I have read of your struggles, to come to terms with accepting that he just may not be capable of doing that for you. No matter how much he really may love you. I think this falls in the same area, and I suggest you look at your husband and see if he is giving you all he can. His habits are not going to change. They come from a life time, and he may not know that he is doing this. It is not such a bad thing, if applied positively, for business, but as we both know, was turned evil with his affairs. What I am getting at, is these behaviors are skills, and can be, and should be, used to better your marriage by getting and keeping clients. As long as he is transparent, and keep things professional, I would not worry, but KEEP MY EYES OPEN.

 

The Trip. Your husband is a private contractor, and it is up to him and you to decide if you come along. If the client does not pay your airfare and expenses, it is just not an issue. My advise, go, have a good time. Take a break. Some of the best time my wife and I have had in our marriage, is when she came with me on a business trip. You may find the client appreciates this, as they do not have to entertain your husband, and can keep things "just business" BTW, if your husbands works for a company, all the same rules apply if the company does not pay for your expenses.

 

Lastly, take some time to remember how far you both have come in all this. Try and use these situations, to make things better, and improve communications between you. This is just another step in the hard road you both accepted when you decided to reconcile. Marriage is not for the faint of heart, remember to keep strong.

 

As always, I wish you luck......

[katielee]

Mermeade - Sorry I haven't been around in a while, friend!

After an affair, there is no room for personal, digital communication with the opposite sex, in my opinion. I remember a few months ago hubby sent a female co-worker a text with smiley emoticons. I was livid. He said it was the "bank's way." I said it wasn't the KatieLeefamily way.

Then, he sent another co-worker a picture of himself in a football jersey. Her daughter goes to his alma mater and there was a game that weekend. I knew nothing was going on but I said to him, "what would you do if you came across a picture of my male co-worker in my phone?" Her husband doesn't know your intent. It's just not right. Boundaries should be iron clad after an affair. You TAKE CARE of your BS. Does his innocent intent matter? NO. FRACK NO. The focus should be on being protective of your relationship. #1 priority.

That said, and if you are ever in a wondering situation again, I would just let him walk as close to the fire as he wants. Then you leave if he gets anywhere near your uncomfortable zone. Someone said you should shine a light their actions to prevent an affair. I'm not going to prevent any affairs by him. That's HIS job. In fact, if it's going to happen, I say go for it dude. I'm ready to go, if I have to.

Hugs!

[merrmeade]

I'm sorry it didn't go well. I hope that starting the conversation will at least lead to better communication and understanding down the road. If your response was different this time -- feeling sort of detached when he was angry and deflecting -- then maybe you are on the road to changing the cycle. You had a better handle on what a constructive response from him would like and were able to not take his inability to give you one personally. Baby steps, perhaps?

 

I think we've fought more in the last 19 months since DD than we did in the whole rest of our 18 years together. And that's hard. Sometimes there's just so much pain and anger and we can't figure out how to reach out to each other. But on the other hand, at least we're talking about this stuff. We're not letting the resentment build but are changing our patterns. There are growing pains associated with that.

Your pro-active suggestions of what to do next and examples from your life really give me encouragement, hw.

 

I've always said to my kids about their dad: Pay attention to what he does, not what he says. I say it precisely because I forget myself. It's funny (not) because it's the same thing his family does with his brother, who's usually far worse than H about holding everyone around him hostage to his anger and intimidation. All the siblings in that family avoid acknowledging, much less talking about, painful or difficult issues. The ones who bottle up frustration tiptoe around the ones that express it. He is both, but guess just your basic passive-aggressive, right?

 

Anyway, the other side of his pattern is that, although he doesn't acknowledge and can't talk or show humility, he shows that he heard and understood by his actions later.

 

I would like to get myself to where I don't react internally or externally to whatever he does.

[merrmeade]

Sometimes there's just so much pain and anger and we can't figure out how to reach out to each other. But on the other hand, at least we're talking about this stuff. We're not letting the resentment build but are changing our patterns. There are growing pains associated with that.

So when there's just "so much pain and anger" neither is able to reach out, what happens?

[merrmeade]

I think you handled it fine. I am also a fWS and business owner. My husband actually feels uncomfortable if I go too much out of my way to reassure him about things he is not even thinking about. The fact of the matter is, if you are worried your spouse will cheat the second you turn your head, anything will seem suspicious. xMM is not allowed to have an email, join a gym or go anywhere other than work and home and our organization (which she is making him quit). On the other hand, I have complete and total freedom. I got a clean slate. I feel I am less likely to do it again than xMM as he views it as a prison cell and she the warden.

 

Anyway, just follow your wife's lead. It seems you did fine.

VERY appros comment. Something to chew on.

 

But maybe your BH is where katielee and others have mentioned: Not going out of his way to help you when you cross a boundary you're not aware of having crossed, maybe he's just watching and waiting to see how well you self-monitor. And when you show you can't or won't, pfffft - out of there.

[merrmeade]

merrmeade,

 

As you said, you both have issues communicating. I wonder if you both talk past each other and do not get to any real issues, with both coming out frustrated, or worse yet, thinking you have your point across. I know for many years, my wife and I, did the same thing. It is hard to talk about hard things and not let emotions get in, of become mad and then shuting down all communication. Add your husband not really getting "it", and I see where you are in a quandary. If you are sure nothing is going on, and he is being transparent, I suggest you play the long game. Look for steps that help and head in the right direction, but do not look for the big fix now. Think strategic, how can I help him with his "marriage" skills, and also have more peace with him? I would work on communication, and as you may remember, I am a big proponent of once each month "all in" talk, where all issue can be discussed, but anything contentious left for the next talk. Seems to work for us, as it allows us both to have a say, but not have things thrown at each other in the mean time. Just a thought, each couple is different, but its a idea.

I always love your posts to me, u50. You go to the trouble and are SO successful at identifying my particular issues and then getting an overview of them all as a whole. Even more important, you get what my personal relationship goals are.

 

I had actually forgotten about the once a month talk you described again. The problem with H is, he really and truly doesn't believe in his heart of hearts that talking gets you anywhere. I think I need to go back to IC to work on how to do that. This is actually where we were when I stopped IC. I felt pretty stable and she was emphasizing the direction things were going, which was exactly what you noted: I was beginning to help him open up. Well, seems that this sort of flagged without the regular unpacking and naming that happens in IC. It's very timely for you to bring it up.