What does this sound like ... ?

[merrmeade]

Do you think that IF he agreed to healthy boundaries regarding you and the marriage - that he wouldn't have his lane excuse when he crosses them? It's like he uses HIS ignorance of not knowing in order to continue disrespecting you...

 

I'm sorry he hurts you - it shouldn't be that way :-(

 

Mermeade - Sorry I haven't been around in a while, friend!

...Boundaries should be iron clad after an affair. You TAKE CARE of your BS. Does his innocent intent matter? NO. FRACK NO. The focus should be on being protective of your relationship. #1 priority.

 

That said, and if you are ever in a wondering situation again, I would just let him walk as close to the fire as he wants. Then you leave if he gets anywhere near your uncomfortable zone. Someone said you should shine a light their actions to prevent an affair. I'm not going to prevent any affairs by him. That's HIS job. In fact, if it's going to happen, I say go for it dude. I'm ready to go, if I have to. Hugs!

Well, therein lies the rub, doesn't it?

Then you leave if he gets anywhere near your uncomfortable zone.

I'd like to know who's actually done that (in bold). I really have my doubts. I think that's where we blow up and tell them and they don't do that one thing again.

 

And don't worry about "being there" or not. I think we're all "there" all the time by the like issues we've shared or straight out advice. I remember.

[merrmeade]

It really sucks that he doesn't consider your feelings Merm - and how everything he does or doesn't do affects you and the marriage.

 

It is hard to imagine he has no inclination of healthy boundaries.

 

Do you think that IF he agreed to healthy boundaries regarding you and the marriage - that he wouldn't have his lane excuse when he crosses them? It's like he uses HIS ignorance of not knowing in order to continue disrespecting you...

 

I'm sorry he hurts you - it shouldn't be that way :-(

Thank you, S2B, and thanks for being patient with me by addressing how each individual issue communicates respect or disrespect.

 

I think some men (maybe some women) can only feel respect for what they don't have completely under their control - a trait I can identify but hardly share. Every cell of my being rebels at such simplistic, neanderthal tendencies. It's just that I'm not a vindictive, begrudging, black or white person and it's so hard for me to sustain anger and simple my-way-or-the-highway expectations—which is what he relates to best. I tend to analyze and explain to myself and then don't feel the need to follow up with dramatic consequences.

 

It's the way he is and the way I'm not that is the real crux of it - liking hard to get, disliking over-analyzing, fearing exposure. Regarding the latter, my own stubborn values prevent me from using extortion, e.g., "I'll tell the kids/your family everything 'else.' " I've never said this because I don't want it to be the reason he does right by me.

[merrmeade]

Correction - S2B quote wasn't supposed to be in #52

[Lion Heart]

Dear Mermaid

 

I haven't been fully attentive sorry! And I know I truly can't help much but I do think about (and worry for) you. Far too much happening here tbh. And it's flying left, right & centre as I even text you now! Lol.

 

It APPEARS you are navigating a path on your own throughout a lifetime of difficult behaviours of WH and ofcourse your own emotions.

 

I may be pointing out the "no brainer" stuff to you. Sorry.

 

The BASIC issue in your situation that I see is that there are no real consequences for WH actions. I understand your commitment to family and M is complete.

So the area of "movement" is pretty fine. It must be very difficult.

 

I also think your expectation of getting to a place of "non-reaction" really means there'll be NO M. No relationship.

 

From your now changing / developing / morphing words in your draft email (although sweetly gentle) are filled with frustration and a longing for WH to merely "come to the table" to discuss things...there's no GOAL of a solution.

 

SO MERMAID what IS the solution?

 

WHAT ARE YOUR goals for this M?

 

I know you are THE sweetest woman on earth. Giving. Nurturing and forever striving for growth.

 

You are an exceptional person.

Few people could be even close to you in your personal development and understandings. (Lol kinda saying you are expecting WAY TOO much from fWH. As my eldest D kept saying to me about STBexVWH).

Therefore should you "lower" your expectations of WH?

Nope.

 

BUT the CLARITY in which you communicate your expectations IS IMPORTANT.

 

I liken whatever I have said to STBEXVWH to "white noise".

 

It was only when I instigated the 180 did I all of a sudden become "important". Tbh I think that's evidence of a VERY sick and unhealthy relationship. Terminally ill in our case.

 

No such things as "I" statements ALLOWED by me.

Yet that's the ONLY terminology he used.

Plus blaming me for anything and everything wrong in his life (lol).

 

Mermaid please DO read up on the Cycle of Violence because abusers push their victims into a corner. Rendering them powerless.

 

Omg I KNOW you are a force to be reckoned with tempered with the depth of humanity few possess but he's done this to you.

 

Time to get YOU back.

YOU within the M still ofcourse. Nothing will change unless YOU change and be FAR MORE EMPOWERED.

 

You do stand your ground but you are in the last corner left, a bastion fighting hard and smart. Getting yourself twisted into knots.

 

HOW WOULD AN EMPOWERED Wife LOOK in a healthy marraige Mermaid? No way would she be ALLOWING her H to make decisions about whether she's going on trips with him or such nonsense.

PACK YOUR sexiest swimmers girlfriend.

Book the flight.

Ofcourse you'd go if this was a healthy M!

 

YOU BE "HEALTHY" and take what's rightfully YOURS.

 

:-))

Love Lion Heart

[merrmeade]

Damn, girl. You don't miss a cotton-pickin' thing as is said around these parts (though more 'thang' than 'thing'). And, yes, I do know all of that and so does FvWH. (The 'v' does stand for 'very,' doesn't it?) He knows I'm better at lots of things on a human level. He knows how to LOOK LIKE he's doing it (i.e., be a good listener, unselfish friend, strong advisor, quiet support) to get people to admire and appreciate him but, funny thing, never with me.

 

You're also right about the 180 that unfortunately elicits more interest and conciliatory response for the wrong reasons. This is not at all what I want to elicit. But the 180 to some degree is just practicing independence. Thinking of yourself first instead of you as a couple. Sounds good to me.

 

Yes, I deserve better but I'm just not interested in the upheaval needed to get there, and I don't have that many years left to spend them all establishing my separateness.

 

I told you that you remind me of my daughter for your razor-sharp precision, nailing the essence of a person/situation, which is at the same time provocative and reassuring for the reminder there are more like her out there. (Does this paragraph belong in a PM maybe? Oh well...)

 

Oh well again.

[Lion Heart]

Damn, girl. You don't miss a cotton-pickin' thing as is said around these parts (though more 'thang' than 'thing'). And, yes, I do know all of that and so does FvWH. (The 'v' does stand for 'very,' doesn't it?) He knows I'm better at lots of things on a human level. He knows how to LOOK LIKE he's doing it (i.e., be a good listener, unselfish friend, strong advisor, quiet support) to get people to admire and appreciate him but, funny thing, never with me.

 

You're also right about the 180 that unfortunately elicits more interest and conciliatory response for the wrong reasons. This is not at all what I want to elicit. But the 180 to some degree is just practicing independence. Thinking of yourself first instead of you as a couple. Sounds good to me.

 

Yes, I deserve better but I'm just not interested in the upheaval needed to get there, and I don't have that many years left to spend them all establishing my separateness.

 

I told you that you remind me of my daughter for your razor-sharp precision, nailing the essence of a person/situation, which is at the same time provocative and reassuring for the reminder there are more like her out there. (Does this paragraph belong in a PM maybe? Oh well...)

 

Oh well again.

 

LOL no use PMg me, I can't access them via my phone. Issues with other technology ho hum lol.

 

I always meant "within the marraige" in my posts to you. It's difficult to get what we want in such Ms but IF FvWH (oh yes V stands for very lol) won't or cannot give you the depth of intimacy you desire - by this I mean consulting you regarding a trip AND inviting you - as would happen in a healthy M IMO then can you GET THIS YOURSELF?

 

OFCOURSE you can.

You have before.

 

It's not necessarily EASY to keep making up the "deficit" for want of a better word, in the M, so it's POSSIBLE.

 

I guess I was trying to say NOT to be so PASSIVE about getting what YOU DESERVE in this M. IN THIS M.

 

Not leaving etc as you have firmly decided not to.

I respect this ofcourse.

 

Whilst STAYING then WHAT does YOUR goal of a "healthy M" look like IN THIS M? Btw I'm not yelling lol. Just highlighting. On my phone lol.

 

Gosh even after ALL the bullshyte came out of STBexVWHs mouth last year, I HAD plans for us to continue and TRY but he was just WAY TOO GONE and delusional. I mean gambling now? Oh wtf goodbye. What a dwad.

 

You aren't saying goodbye but the tie and commitment you have HAS TO AMOUNT TO SOMETHING for your hard work.

 

So reap the rewards is what I'm saying.

Take what you deserve and begin or continue to ACT as though you're in a healthy M.

Expect.

Give.

Take.

Be.

 

IDK if I'm being clear just HOPING that this strategy may help get you some ground. Not aggressive but ASSERTIVE.

 

Lol yeah oh well. And if I could CHOOSE a mum it'd be you. May as well be lol. I've certainly communicated with YOU more than my bio mother in 14y. And for serendipitous reasons I'm grateful we've met and bonded so beautifully.

 

You can do this Mermaid. You go girl! Lol.

 

Lion Heart

[understand50]

Merrmeade,

 

Lion Heart, is right along the lines that you need to become "more" empowered in your marriage, but this needs to tampered with what can your husband and relationship really achieve. In other words, with what we know of your husband, what can we expect, how far can he come and grow? You have talked about, how he will never "get it". I think for most WS, they will never really get it, the WS's on LS trying are the exception, so please do not use this group as a model. You have stated that you do not want to end the marriage, but want the best that can be had. Using Ms JA, as an example, by her own admission, it took many years before she "got it". If you read her closely, she told John, soon after she confessed, that she was sorry that she hurt him, but not that her ONS happened. From this, we now have the present Mr JA, Abigail, who now sees just how damaging that was. Point is, your husband, as yourself, are both on a long journey, and it takes the best of us time to figure things out. This assumes that we are able too.

 

I keep saying, play the long game. First part is that they are faithful, and the odds are they will remain so. The second, and maybe it will take the rest of their life, is them discovering just how much damage they did to themselves and to their loved ones. Sometime this never happens. I know my wife, may never "get" her betrayals of her ONS and how her overspending hurt me and us, but she is trying, and if she never gets it, I will cherish her trying. Sometimes, I think she glimpses what she has done, but it is mostly fleeting. Reading here, I think most WS, are like our spouses. This does not mean that we cannot love them, or they do not love us, but at a deep level, their needs overrode their vows, and they cannot reconcile this to the marriage. They must keep things at bay, or recognize just what they did. Some cannot handle this. In many ways this shows just who is the stronger one. IE, John was and is stronger then Abigail, I am stronger then my wife, and you are stronger then your husband. I can only say that looking at Lion Heart, we see a strong woman, refusing to be brought down. It takes a strong person to look past the hurt and pain, and give a second chance, or make a split. Please keep this in mind.

 

My advise, is that the 180 is for the spouses in the process of doing harm, not for spouses trying to live a good marriage, and not being able to understand what they did and the impact on their spouse, loved one, and family. I think your tool kit is to keep talking and trying to lead him to see what is lacking from him, and what is needed by you. Keep in mind he has "needs", not talking physical, but emotional and he must have a fear that in the end he will fall short and lose you. How this is done, is problematic, as each individual and couple is different. You have written, that you both are religious. Maybe the path is there, as we are taught to forgive, but also make amends. You have the forgiving part down, he needs to figure out the amends part. I would ask him, what in your shared faith, shows him to do in making this up to you and having him understand just what he did. Ask him, when his soul is being judged, what can he bring fourth to show he tried to make it up to you, himself, and lastly to god. What is faith for, if not this?

 

Again, I would also urge you to remember how far you both have come, while you see how far you must go. Please do not lose faith and heart. All example of a successful, as far as one can call it, reconciliations, are of years and decades of learning and making amends. This is why reconciliation is hard and not for the faint of heart. Remember what you both are trying to do.

 

As always, I wish you luck......

[MidnightBlue1980]

VERY appros comment. Something to chew on.

 

But maybe your BH is where katielee and others have mentioned: Not going out of his way to help you when you cross a boundary you're not aware of having crossed, maybe he's just watching and waiting to see how well you self-monitor. And when you show you can't or won't, pfffft - out of there.

 

Well, I guess that goes both ways as he strayed as well. I do not monitor him. I did at first and it drove me crazy. I was googling cell numbers to track down people's identity. We have the honor system basically and I guess hope the other has the respect for the other person to not do it all again.

 

We each get a lot of attention from the opposite sex and report back to each other. I can read a situation with a woman much better than he can and vice versa. I can easily tell - so and so is being inappropriate and you should be careful, she is looking for an affair - and so on. As for me with men, I really do not trust my judgement and have huge trust issues after what I went through. I tend to keep to myself these days.

 

I think it's all about keeping the lines of communication open and no secrecy.

[Lion Heart]

In reference to U50s post, he's always wise and knowing.

 

Sometimes I shake my head and wonder why couldn't two people just the same (in commitment and fidelity) meet?

I guess successful Ms have this. Successful in ideal terms. So rare.

 

Though there are other types of successful Ms.

Ones that get past As. Truly reconcile.

From what I've read there's seldom a true reconciliation.

I hope that ROs M can be one of these. There are others too. Just so few and so seldom.

 

Each R has it's own dynamics.

 

Just FYI the STBexVWH from here wanted this M to reach HIS "higher levels" lol which were most definitely in the gutter from my perspective. Being a constant filthy cake-eater whilst I played pretty, subservient housewife, staying faithful, being obedient and ALWAYS BEING HAPPY. Whilst then he dove to deeper sordid depths in his behaviours and included way more than sex pits but gambling relentlessly with a minus figure income.

EXTREME NPD.

 

Hence D.

 

Mermaid is in a different realm.

 

Not QUITE being able to fully reconcile because her FWH cannot connect.

 

I would take U50s advice over mine ANY DAY! lol.

 

The full 180 is for those purposes he outlined.

A reconfigured 180 to gain INDEPENDENCE, power, some autonomy of mind, emotions, finances etc but DETACHMENT.

 

And by detachment I mean this in it's most virtuous form.

 

NOT Pi$$ off and leave but DETACH for protection and respect of oneself. Detachment can allow us to stand respectfully apart from our spouse and OBSERVE then give us the strength and power to be resolute. Happy. Enjoy life as a goal.

 

Hence the GOAL of this M that Mermaid has. What is it? What are those goals? In the CONTEXT of your M Mermaid.

 

From my experience ONCE you articulate clearly to YOURSELF what your goals are, write them down, spend time on each point, ponder and study them...it gives you POWER. It at least gives you direction.

 

IME God has always seen these, the preamble is "If it be your Will God..." and she must be pretty awesome lol. I've met some crazy f***ers in my life but NOBODY would have predicted the awesome things I do have and continue to reap. Least of all me, when at my lowest, WITHOUT direction.

 

I feel that you know all this already Mermaid.

Might pay to have you articulate them to yourself.

 

Lion Heart:-))

[Noirek]

 

 

IE, John was and is stronger then Abigail, I am stronger then my wife, and you are stronger then your husband. I can only say that looking at Lion Heart, we see a strong woman, refusing to be brought down. It takes a strong person to look past the hurt and pain, and give a second chance, or make a split. Please keep this in mind.

 

 

I disagree with this. We all have strengths and weaknesses. And while from the outside we put a value judgement on people a describe them as "weak" or "strong" that isn't usually true for every area of their life. And then there is the fact that we have strong or weak moments in our lives. Many BS find themselves feeling weak after D-day. Many of them are weak in their coping skills and react in ways that are not healthy or beneficial. But, many go on to strengthn themselves. They are no longer weak. The same can be said for us "cheaters". Just because I was weak when it came to temptation before doesn't mean I will always be. Something I really had to learn for myself. I will not forever be the "weaker" one in my marriage because of it. And if we look at things besides the ever defining fidelity I have a lot of strengths that my husband does not. And he is aware of his weak areas and works on them. He'd never consider himself stronger than me as an umbrella term except when it comes to actually physical strength.

 

Back on topic-

We don't hear much favourable abour Mr. Mermeade. That's not why Mermeade is here. I like her and I don't like him. But I remind myself that we only can know things through Mermeade's eyes. And she chooses to stay with him so he cannot be all bad. While I feel that his comment was far from being nefarious, (even more so with the fact there were no long convos and the like) Mermeade was bothered by it deeply. So From a BS pov he should know such comments are never going to be innocent again. He should be bending over backwards to make Mermeade feel safe. He should be so professional he is cold and unproachable. He should not be defensive and not say he did no wrong when confronted. He should understand what triggers are and that she triggeres. He really should be showing his belly. He is not a good WS. He hasn't been all along.

 

But since there is nothing anyone can do to make him a good ws and since Mermead plans to remain with him, I believe she needs to develop a less confrontational way to work with him. Most people shut down when accused. Its not a good way on their part to communicate but I think that is what he does. And then he processes it. And the he acts sweet and kind to make it up. He can never be convinced he did wrong. But with a little less "you did wrong" and a little more "I felt unsafe seeing you being friendly with a female client." He may be more sensitive to seeing things through his wife's eyes.

 

It really is just one POV. And even I do not think it is "ideal" by the book wise. But i have learned not everyone lives by the book. And sometimes in order to achieve what you want, you got to throw the book right out.

 

To be clear, I'm not expecting Mermeade to be ok with his comment. I only mentioned my POV on it as an example of how sometimes you cannot convince someone to change their opinion. And that is probably how her husband feels. I was merely suggesting instead of her trying to convince him he crossed a boundary or broke a rule or did wrong, she needs to share how she triggered and felt unsafe. How when he didn't tell her the detaisl at first she saw it as him hiding something and not caring about her.

 

Not sure if that made sense at all.

[understand50]

I disagree with this. We all have strengths and weaknesses. And while from the outside we put a value judgement on people a describe them as "weak" or "strong" that isn't usually true for every area of their life. And then there is the fact that we have strong or weak moments in our lives. Many BS find themselves feeling weak after D-day. Many of them are weak in their coping skills and react in ways that are not healthy or beneficial. But, many go on to strengthn themselves. They are no longer weak. The same can be said for us "cheaters". Just because I was weak when it came to temptation before doesn't mean I will always be. Something I really had to learn for myself. I will not forever be the "weaker" one in my marriage because of it. And if we look at things besides the ever defining fidelity I have a lot of strengths that my husband does not. And he is aware of his weak areas and works on them. He'd never consider himself stronger than me as an umbrella term except when it comes to actually physical strength.

.

 

Noirek,

 

You make some valid points, but I would point out, and I would state from what I have read on your posts, your husband showed great strength in giving you a second change, while you struggled over the outcome of your affair. This is not to put aside the growth in yourself, or disparage your own strength in moving back towards your family and husband. Add to the fact the guts to come here and endure the "slings and arrows' of Loveshack, and yes you have strength.

 

Your husband, had to find it in himself to forgive you, and give you space to let you sort out your feeling, all the while knowing what you did and were doing. (forgive me, if I miss-remember your story, I recall you kept in touch with your AP for sometime afterwards, and I do not recall if you were physical with him, with your husband knowing you were) In any case, he gave you a second chance and, I hope, is working with you to reconcile and rebuild your marriage. I submit, that many men would have just divorced and be done with you. The man, or woman, that can set aside all that has been done to them, and still see something that makes them give a second chance, shows great strength and love. Some here will question wisdom, but I would point out we are all different, and no one rule can ever apply.

 

Your other part, the WS, can grow and straighten themselves is true. It just comes at a huge cost. All things in life can have "silver linings" Your infidelity, led to a deeper appreciation of your life, your husband, and maybe the realization of the depth of love this man must have for you. I am sure, if you could do it all again, from this vantage point you would not, but in this, please look at the journey your husband had to take, for you both to reach where you are.

 

I keep saying that reconciliation is a long hard road. Marriage in general is the same journey. I am glad you came back to LS, and that you and yours are doing well. Your opinion has value, as your story does, as do others, Mrs JA, Mr JA, Mermaid, Lion Heart. Never doubt, that by having the guts to share your story, that your story and your struggles can give hope to others suffering though infidelity, whether a wondering spouse or a betrayed spouse.

 

As always, I wish you luck.......

[understand50]

Noirek,

 

BTW, your second part of advise to Mermeade is very good. I think, Mr Mermeade is who he is, and maybe cannot grow past where he is at, she will need to find a way to engage with him and let some or most of the tension out. I am sure, if they could get to a place where anything could be discussed, with out too much drama, it would go along way to help both of them. Food for thought.

 

Luck...

[merrmeade]

Merrmeade,

 

Lion Heart, is right along the lines that you need to become "more" empowered in your marriage, but this needs to tampered with what can your husband and relationship really achieve. In other words, with what we know of your husband, what can we expect, how far can he come and grow? You have talked about, how he will never "get it". I think for most WS, they will never really get it, the WS's on LS trying are the exception, so please do not use this group as a model. You have stated that you do not want to end the marriage, but want the best that can be had. ... your husband, as yourself, are both on a long journey, and it takes the best of us time to figure things out. This assumes that we are able too.

 

I keep saying, play the long game. First part is that they are faithful, and the odds are they will remain so. The second, and maybe it will take the rest of their life, is them discovering just how much damage they did to themselves and to their loved ones. Sometime this never happens. ... most WS, are like our spouses. This does not mean that we cannot love them, or they do not love us, but at a deep level, their needs overrode their vows, and they cannot reconcile this to the marriage. They must keep things at bay, or recognize just what they did. Some cannot handle this. In many ways this shows just who is the stronger one....

 

My advise, is that the 180 is for the spouses in the process of doing harm, not for spouses trying to live a good marriage, and not being able to understand what they did and the impact on their spouse, loved one, and family. I think your tool kit is to keep talking and trying to lead him to see what is lacking from him, and what is needed by you. Keep in mind he has "needs", not talking physical, but emotional and he must have a fear that in the end he will fall short and lose you. How this is done, is problematic, as each individual and couple is different. You have written, that you both are religious. Maybe the path is there, as we are taught to forgive, but also make amends. You have the forgiving part down, he needs to figure out the amends part. I would ask him, what in your shared faith, shows him to do in making this up to you and having him understand just what he did. Ask him, when his soul is being judged, what can he bring fourth to show he tried to make it up to you, himself, and lastly to god. What is faith for, if not this?

 

Again, I would also urge you to remember how far you both have come, while you see how far you must go. Please do not lose faith and heart. All example of a successful, as far as one can call it, reconciliations, are of years and decades of learning and making amends. This is why reconciliation is hard and not for the faint of heart. Remember what you both are trying to do.

 

As always, I wish you luck......

Great discussion, guys - hope it keeps going. The nuances of reconciliation after infidelity are unique. You cannot discuss one without the other, for there is no “getting over it.” I’m reading a book right now, How to get past what you can never get over, which in essence is the goal of R following infidelity – getting past and working on life in the present while remembering because you can’t help but remember.

 

I realize from my husband’s reaction these past few days following our conversation about the SMS remark to his client that I made mistakes in how I handled this incident. He was hurt and I was stubbornly holding on to my rights as a betrayed spouse rather than approaching him as my partner that I’ve empowered with my trust as part of our new commitment. I should have spoken to him right away instead of stewing and extrapolating. Since we talked and I’ve thought about his reaction and the facts, I regret some things I said. He was hurt because he has kept the faith and does realize much of the damage he did. I do think he regrets the A(s) and is deeply remorseful, but he does not get everything that he did.

 

What I agree that I need to be okay with that his not getting everything about everything I went through. As we all agree, he cannot, but that has not diminished his absolute commitment to making our life together work the best way he knows how. His efforts to be a better lover are the best he knows how to do to meet my needs. Because he does not let anyone into his world and his emotional vulnerabilities, he does not try to get into mine. Complete emotional transparency and openness are not desirable goals for him and that thwarts my view of true intimacy. It puts us at odds although no one is being consciously hurtful. He wants to be a good man and was truly hurt that I was still suspicious of him. He didn’t fight it and said he understood why, but he was disappointed.

 

When I realized that the client had, in fact, asked him about his new house just a few minutes before the text, I understood that my misgivings were misplaced, and I should have asked right away. We’ve gone beyond that level of cat and mouse, but our communication styles have not coalesced.

 

So, no, I don’t have the forgiving part down that well, which does create a wedge. I’m getting better though.

 

I think that, as you suggest, his disappointment in himself and what he did does affect his spiritual life as well because of the shame. It is not something he will ever talk about nor do I want or expect it. That is a relationship beyond his with me and I do not interfere – just as he respects mine and does not interfere.

 

As an avowed non-talker, he speaks and shows commitment through action and feels that too much talk lessens the intensity of mutual understanding while I feel that if you understand it, you show it by the words you use.

 

In other words, at this point in R the effort to move forward together must be mutual.

[merrmeade]

We don't hear much favourable abour Mr. Mermeade. That's not why Mermeade is here. I like her and I don't like him. But I remind myself that we only can know things through Mermeade's eyes. And she chooses to stay with him so he cannot be all bad. While I feel that his comment was far from being nefarious, (even more so with the fact there were no long convos and the like) Mermeade was bothered by it deeply. So From a BS pov he should know such comments are never going to be innocent again. He should be bending over backwards to make Mermeade feel safe. He should be so professional he is cold and unproachable. He should not be defensive and not say he did no wrong when confronted. He should understand what triggers are and that she triggeres. He really should be showing his belly. He is not a good WS. He hasn't been all along.

 

But since there is nothing anyone can do to make him a good ws and since Mermead plans to remain with him, I believe she needs to develop a less confrontational way to work with him. Most people shut down when accused. Its not a good way on their part to communicate but I think that is what he does. And then he processes it. And the he acts sweet and kind to make it up. He can never be convinced he did wrong. But with a little less "you did wrong" and a little more "I felt unsafe seeing you being friendly with a female client." He may be more sensitive to seeing things through his wife's eyes.

 

It really is just one POV. And even I do not think it is "ideal" by the book wise. But i have learned not everyone lives by the book. And sometimes in order to achieve what you want, you got to throw the book right out.

 

To be clear, I'm not expecting Mermeade to be ok with his comment. I only mentioned my POV on it as an example of how sometimes you cannot convince someone to change their opinion. And that is probably how her husband feels. I was merely suggesting instead of her trying to convince him he crossed a boundary or broke a rule or did wrong, she needs to share how she triggered and felt unsafe. How when he didn't tell her the detaisl at first she saw it as him hiding something and not caring about her.

 

Not sure if that made sense at all.

Yes, you are also right. I came in with a sledgehammer instead of just knocking - the right way. And correct about how easy it is to come off as accusatory. Couching the issue in terms of how it affects me rather than what he did.

[Blueskies66]

Ok, I'm new here. I stumbled across this forum and I haven't been the victim of infidelity....that I know of.

 

Op. I think you have an unhealthy obsession with thoughts of your husbands potential infidelity. People flirt. It's a natural part of life. Yes. Even people who have committed infidelity still flirt.

 

I don't even think his actions are overtly flirty. You really seem like you are hounding him. If you are so upset by his relatively benign actions then leave him. You both might be better off. in your posts you talk about him more like he is an object or a character from a novel rather than a real human being.

[katielee]

Even people who have committed infidelity still flirt.

 

 

Yeah, no we don't.

[Lion Heart]

Yeah, no we don't.

 

Thatta girl! Lol. I think you must be doing very well Katielee!

 

:-))

Lion Heart

[understand50]

Ok, I'm new here. I stumbled across this forum and I haven't been the victim of infidelity....that I know of.

 

Op. I think you have an unhealthy obsession with thoughts of your husbands potential infidelity. People flirt. It's a natural part of life. Yes. Even people who have committed infidelity still flirt.

 

I don't even think his actions are overtly flirty. You really seem like you are hounding him. If you are so upset by his relatively benign actions then leave him. You both might be better off. in your posts you talk about him more like he is an object or a character from a novel rather than a real human being.

 

Blueskies66,

 

If you are in a true reconciliation, you do not flirt. Flirting, is the first step hopefully leading to bed, and sex. Too many WS, thought "innocent" flirting is harmless, until they get to point of sex, and find they cannot stop. Many here, regretted their flirting, as if they had not started they would have not been lead down a path with so much pain and hurt.

 

How many ONS, are because of just this? There is no "innocent" flirting, and a married person should not engage in it. Those that flirt because it is in their personality, need to find ways to stop. If they have committed infidelity, more so. For the spouse married to such a person, they can help by pointing out and working with them them to overcome this. This is may be what Merrmeade is facing. Her husband is in reconciliation with her, but is probably a natural flirt. He needs to learn how to be social and not engage in this behavior, and Merrmeade, can help by pointing out when he crosses a line. When they both get to a point where this is done with out triggering and emotion, life for them will be better.

 

Yes, for some and maybe all of us, flirting is natural, but when one cheats, and is given the gift of a second chance, making a consensus effort not to flirt, is a small price to pay. We rule our selfs, and can change.

 

My two cents....

[merrmeade]

Nicely done. I was hoping someone would do that.

 

Another factor with us is H's pride (i guess) assuming that he is in control, knows what he is doing (which is not flirting), and is no longer 'that person.' But he heard me and that's how we roll. The idea has been put out there and he will remember despite the resistance and defensiveness.

 

And even though I regret coming in so bluntly (ahem, the merrmeade way, sigh, which is pretty direct and whatever I'm thinking and feeling), and agree the remark was not so alarming given the context, I DO still think he said it in that offhand way he has of engaging women. Its just this side of flirting. Its expresses something personal and presents a 'sensitive' side, if you will, that women gobble up. In fact, it's literally about the senses. A 'man's man' doesn't talk about enjoying the 'sound of silence,' touch of the wind - you get my drift. And, no, I DON'T think he would've said it to a male client for the same reason. And, mind you, he ADMITTED he was quoting me (which in itself is progress). So while it wasn't exactly flirting, it was the precursor (AND even plagiarism).

 

And I think this story and discussion points out an important difference between those who cheat or might and those who havent and wont: The first group is not interested in, does not get the need or even like to analyze their interactions to this degree. Like the newcomer Blueskies, they think its neurotic and suffocating. But this is exactly the fkind of thinking and conversation the few successfully reconciled and reformed WSs are doing, when they come here asking for help and guidance. They want to understand what they never acknowledged about themselves before.

 

I have not changed my mind about my husband's sincerity and remorse. It is qualified but works. He is not interested in listening to my psychoanalysis of his wayward past nor should he be. That is a bit much to ask of anyone. He takes care of it by controlling his activities and circumstances. And while he didn't acknowledge my point, we did articulate some boundaries - not being alone in closed quarters with a woman, going off into extended conversation about their personal lives, etc.

 

And secretly I think he knew I was right about the remark.

Edited November 15, 2016 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

It's good to hear you two seem to have a better agreement about boundaries now.

 

Do you think he realizes that everything he does or doesn't do affects your marriage?

 

Maybe he could do a mental exercise each time he's faced with a scenario...by asking himself "is this a positive influence on my marriage and commitment to my wife?"

Hmm, that would probably sound novel and make him squirm. Actually a healthy exercise for someone fighting narcissistic tendencies. It does sound viable, heartwarming ... and welcome.