Ex wants to move 3h away with the kids

[TooRational]

Hi,

 

My ex-wife has been fighting severe depression since our separation a year ago (she's also BPD) and now she's convinced that she has to move to another city to be happy. She wants to move somewhere she can speak her native language, 3h away.

 

We have kids, 5 and 8 years old, so obviously this desire of hers complicates things immensely. I don't see any scenario with a good outcome. There are a few possibilities:

 

- She wants to take the kids during the school year and she proposes I take the kids in the summer. I don't like this idea at all. The kids would be uprooted from their social circle here (granted, they are still young) and trying to see the kids on weekends would be complicated.

 

- The other scenario where I keep the kids full time during the school year is not ideal either. I don't see how I could manage to work 40h a week and take care of two kids alone. I know it can be done but it would be quite a challenge. Say goodbye to dating again for a while. I'd need to work at night too, otherwise the kids would spend 10+ hours at school/daycare which I find very unhealthy.

 

Now she's trying to guilt shame me, saying things like "I moved here for you, I left everything behind. I'm tired, I sacrificed 18 years of my life for you and kids it's my turn now"

 

In fact, she was very happy to leave her dysfunctional family behind when she moved from the US to Canada. We had very good years together before having kids. I wasn't a "sacrifice" for her, for god's sake.

 

She's the one that ended the marriage and has been making my life quite difficult for the past year. She was part of the reason my recent ex broke up with me. She couldn't handle her neediness and unpredictable behaviors (we canceled dates often because, out of the blue, she couldn't take the kids as planned). She made two suicide attempts a few months ago. I tried to help as much as I could but this caused me a lot of stress.

 

Anyway, I'm at a loss about what to do. We'll probably meet a mediator but I'm not even sure what I should fight for. She feels entitled to act in a selfish manner now and think about herself first and foremost. I worry about the kids well-being first.

 

Any advice?

[PegNosePete]

You should see a lawyer. Not a mediator.

 

Mediators are all about "making agreement". They just basically get you and your ex to agree. Whether the agreement that you come to is fair or not, whether you could prevent it happening or get a better outcome through court, is off topic for a mediator. For example: let's say a husband wants to give his wife $500 a month alimony and the wife wants $1000. In mediation they might compromise and settle on $750. But a court might have seen it totally differently. The court might have awarded $2000 alimony. Or a court might have said that the wife is not entitled to alimony at all. The mediator doesn't care about that. All he cares about is that you have both agreed to $750. And once you've agreed to something in mediation, it can be hard to repeal in court later. That is the difference between a mediator and a lawyer.

 

Best plan would be to see a lawyer and find out the best possible outcome for you, and find out what you can do to prevent her moving. And then, if you want to do mediation, you can go in with a good starting offer, rather than just a guess and advice from random unqualified people on the internet

 

You should definitely mention the suicide attempts. That makes her unsuitable as a guardian of young children. It may be in their best interests for you to have full custody.

Edited November 15, 2016 by PegNosePete

[TooRational]

Thanks. Yes, talking to a lawyer would probably be helpful, I agree.

 

I'm fairly certain that if it ends up going to court, I could win fairly easily. I have a house, a stable job and the kids grand-parents are close. On the other hand, she is very unstable mentally, is renting, has a low paying job with unstable hours(she needs to work on nights and weekends), making taking care of kids difficult.

 

Her plan in the new city is to become a personal trainer. Another low paying job with a schedule incompatible with taking care of kids full-time. I don't see how this could fly. She has been unable to handle the kids more than 3 days straight for the past year. Full weeks seems a ridiculous proposition.

 

But I really hope that we don't have to go to court over this. Fighting parents is not good for kids. I'd much prefer to come to an agreement.

 

But more important than legal advice, I'm really seeking advice on how to handle this situation so that the impact on the kids is minimized. What is the best outcome for kids in that kind of situation? Let's say the mother wants to see the children on the weekends, how can we make this work with a 3h driving distance? Simplest would be for her to come over here but where would she stay for only weekends? Having the kids travel over there seem very unpractical. Perhaps we could drive the kids and meet half-way but boy, what an annoyance for the kids. 6h of driving during their weekend. That sucks.

 

The divorce is not final either so I fear that she'll switch into this "fighting mode" and make everything more complicated than it needs to be when it comes to money issues.

 

This separation is taking a turn for the worse Despite all the pains of the separation, at least I had the positive aspect of a little more free time. Now that is about to go away too

[PegNosePete]

how can we make this work with a 3h driving distance?

Well, you sum up the options fairly well.

 

Either she comes to stay for the weekend (in a hotel or rental flat or something), or she (or you, or a combination) are going to be doing a lot of driving.

 

The best option is quite clearly for her NOT to move away.

 

The divorce is not final either so I fear that she'll switch into this "fighting mode"

Yes, best to see a lawyer and get it all officially registered that she is not allowed to move 3h away. If she decides to just do it, then getting her to move back after she's settled with a new job etc would be incredibly difficult. Prevention is better than cure.

[TooRational]

I don't think I can legally prevent her from moving away. Legally the best I can do is prevent her from taking the kids with her.

 

Obviously I would prefer if we can come to some kind of agreement so that she stays here. But she seems to firmly believe that moving away is key to her happiness.

 

She's in a phase of her life now where she's convinced that everything around her is the cause of her unhappiness (our marriage, the kids to some extent, the barking dog, the former house, her former job, the city, etc). So far running away from all those things has not brought her happiness. At some point she'll run out of things to run from. In the mean time, she seems dead set on moving away at all cost.

[Marc878]

This isn't about her it's about the kids or should be from your point of view.

 

Fight it. You're their father. Do what's best for them or you'll regret it.

[Standard-Fare]

If your ex-wife is as unstable as you make it sound, AND she is absolutely intent on moving 3 hours away without solid finances or job prospects, then it would seem the best option for the kids would be for you to take on the majority of their care.

 

Meaning: They stay with you during the school year, and you work out the rest of the details (for example - they spend one weekend a month with her and a good chunk of summer, maybe).

 

I realize you're intimidated by how hard that would be. And no one would disagree with you.

 

But since you seem genuinely ad selflessly concerned in THE KIDS' best interest, that's the honest answer for that, however not ideal. And hopefully your wife would have enough clarify to see that, too - to recognize that she could not provide the kids with a stable existence. Maybe that would change over time, but this is reality right now and for the near future until your wife has a decent foundation of job, housing, and MENTAL HEALTH in her new location.

 

You mentioned grandparents are nearby - could they take on a greater role with childcare? Do you have any other family or close friends who could pitch in? Obviously no one in this scenario would want to see the kids go into long hours of daycare.

 

And yes, to hammer out the details of this arrangement you are absolutely going to need a lawyer.

[TooRational]

Thanks for the answers guys.

 

To answer some of the questions, the grand-parents live in Florida 6 months during the winter, so they can't help then. But when they do come back, they can and do help out, so there's that.

 

I also have some good friends that could help to some extent but they already have 3 children of their own, so it would be too much to ask to help out during normal week routine.

 

I might have to scale back my working hours to 35h/week. Then I could manage the kids full time during the week. Moving closer to work, in a smaller house, to reduce commute is also an option.

 

My ex has some stability in her finances: me. I provide generous child support of course and I may end up having to pay alimony as well. She has mentioned in the past that she doesn't want/need alimony but she might very well change her mind if we end up having a bitter fight about the kids.

 

Hey it could be worse, she previously threatened to move back to the states. She very well could do that in the future. So 3h away might not be that bad after all

[Mr. Lucky]

Perhaps we could drive the kids and meet half-way but boy, what an annoyance for the kids. 6h of driving during their weekend. That sucks.(

 

Not realistic. And your kids will quickly start to resent the process.

 

Stand your ground, do what's best for you and your kids. Since she's the one that wants change, let her deal with the consequences...

 

Mr. Lucky

[PegNosePete]

I don't think I can legally prevent her from moving away. Legally the best I can do is prevent her from taking the kids with her.

Based on your legal training you got when you were at uni...? Or just guessing?

 

See a lawyer. Get the real facts.

 

Preventing her taking the kids with her is fine. Then it's her problem how she arranges her visitation. Don't make it your problem. If you say "your choice to move - not my problem", then she will see the reality of how hard her life will be, commuting 6 hours every weekend to see the kids, and she may reconsider moving. Don't give her solutions to make her life easier.

Edited November 16, 2016 by PegNosePete

[LilyMila]

have a house, a stable job and the kids grand-parents are close. On the other hand, she is very unstable mentally, is renting, has a low paying job with unstable hours(she needs to work on nights and weekends), making taking care of kids difficult.

Maybe that is what she imply when she said she sacrificed for you. My husband and I both have the same graduate school education level, but because I moved around for him, he now makes 3 times what I make. Was she always mentally unstable or was it the stress of being on her own that is causing her to act this way?

[TooRational]

She had post-partum depression after our first child and never really got over it. She managed to live normally with anti-depressants but she decided to quit cold-turkey a year and a half ago and this is what triggered (or at least accelerated) our breakup and her depression.

 

She was never a stay-at-home mom although she did take some leaves for the babies (we have great gov. benefits for that here). She has a bachelor degree in ESL teaching but couldn't handle the stress of class discipline (got panic attacks) so she dropped that. She mostly worked in the adult ESL field after that but it's not very lucrative.

 

Honestly I find it to be a very cheap shot to make me feel guilty for all the time we spent together. I always supported her in whatever endeavor she wanted. For example, she went to south america for 3 months alone one year after our marriage to discover herself and learn Spanish. It's not like she was a slave with me at all. I also often told her that I would support her if she wanted to go back to school to get another degree. So she sacrificed "so much" to be with me? Bull****.

[PegNosePete]

Honestly I find it to be a very cheap shot to make me feel guilty

I disagree. I think it's part of a well researched legal strategy.

 

She makes out that she sacrificed everything for you and is totally dependent on you financially. That means you have a legal obligation to support her financially for the foreseeable future (alimony).

 

This is not just a cheap shot, it will be the crux of her entire case against you. It would be a good idea for you to research how well she could do if she put her mind to it. How much could she make right now, in 6 months, in a year? That will be your defence against "I can't support myself, I need lifelong alimony".

[TooRational]

Well, she definitely has not seeked legal counselling yet, I'm 99% sure. Yet, I agree that this will be part of her argumentation when discussing alimony.

 

I'm not opposed to paying a fair alimony. But gross over-generalizations such as "I sacrificed everything for you" are ridiculous.

 

In the grand scheme of things, alimony is the least of my concerns now. Children custody arrangements is much more important.

 

I feel like during the weeks before our separation... It's the calm before the storm. The **** is about the hit the fan in a big way

[PegNosePete]

I feel like during the weeks before our separation... It's the calm before the storm. The **** is about the hit the fan in a big way

Yes exactly. That is why (I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here, sorry about that) you need to see a lawyer.

 

Seeing a lawyer doesn't mean you're playing hardball or being nasty or making it acrimonious. It just means you're gathering factual information about your legal and financial position, and getting an idea of what is a "good" outcome for yourself, and what you should or shouldn't agree to. If you don't need to retain a lawyer's services in the end then all good, you lose nothing. But if it does get really nasty then you'll be extremely grateful you started lining up your ducks early rather than waiting for the stars to be halfway to the fan.

[TooRational]

So, the option for her to move back to USA seems firmly on the table now. Much further away than 3h. If that scenario plays out, then either I would get the kids during the school year or summer. I hate both scenarios. It seems like it would be very hard on the kids to be away from one parent for months at a time. Does anyone have experience with that kind of arrangement? How do the kids handle it?

 

From her point of view, going back to the US makes some sense because she still has family there from which she can get support. She has no family here.

 

PegNosePete, yes I agree that a lawyer could be helpful but I don't want to pay to be told information that can easily be found for free. Yes, at some point a lawyer could be necessary but I think that starting with mediation is not necessarily a bad thing. Potentially much cheaper and anything that is said or agreed upon during mediation cannot be held against you if mediation fails and you need to go to court.

[NopeNah]

but I think that starting with mediation is not necessarily a bad thing. Potentially much cheaper and anything that is said or agreed upon during mediation cannot be held against you if mediation fails and you need to go to court.

This is true,at least in the states. I had court ordered mediation and just said "yes" to everything. Then in court two days later, my exw attorney 'dropped' her for failure to pay. At that point I went for the jugular, said I had changed my mind and received full custody of my 4yo daughter. That was my plan the entire time. When a kid(s) well being is involved divorce/custody is a war zone! Good luck!

[anna121]

Based on your legal training you got when you were at uni...? Or just guessing?

 

See a lawyer. Get the real facts.

 

 

OP I'm a lawyer in Canada and in family disputes judges do not have the power prevent any adult from going wherever they darn well please. Parent or not.

 

Whether they take the kids with them, of course, is a totally different story.

[turnera]

So, the option for her to move back to USA seems firmly on the table now. Much further away than 3h. If that scenario plays out, then either I would get the kids during the school year or summer. I hate both scenarios. It seems like it would be very hard on the kids to be away from one parent for months at a time. Does anyone have experience with that kind of arrangement? How do the kids handle it?

 

From her point of view, going back to the US makes some sense because she still has family there from which she can get support. She has no family here.

 

PegNosePete, yes I agree that a lawyer could be helpful but I don't want to pay to be told information that can easily be found for free.

Then you are a fool. This is your children's LIVES that are in the balance.

 

IF she is unstable and incapable of providing for them for the next 13 years, then you need to PAY for the legal representation you need to protect them.

 

If on the other hand you are spinning this story and she really DID leave her whole life behind to support you, only to be abandoned, then you owe her some integrity and equality to allow her to raise her kids as they need to be raised.

 

Where did she move from that she can't even speak her own language? That's a BIG thing.

[PegNosePete]

PegNosePete, yes I agree that a lawyer could be helpful but I don't want to pay to be told information that can easily be found for free.

Most lawyers do a free initial consultation. Asking for legal advice on an internet forum is pure craziness.

 

I think that starting with mediation is not necessarily a bad thing. Potentially much cheaper and anything that is said or agreed upon during mediation cannot be held against you if mediation fails and you need to go to court.

True but your wife could simply be playing for time to arrange her move. Whilst you're "mediating", she is planning to leave with the kids. By the time she says "this mediation isn't working, I'm leaving to another country with the kids", it will be too late for you to file the proper paperwork to prevent her from doing so. And once she is gone it will be virtually impossible to get her to move back.

 

Take. Action. NOW.