Is anything going on

[DKT3]

You situation is crappy, been there. Spent about a year In this state...she is cheating, no she would never do that. It's actually worse then knowing without a doubt.

 

In a conversation with my brother where I was venting about all the little signs, he listened and then calmly said "your looking for evidence that she didn't do anything, all the proof that she did is right in your face".

 

Being in this state sux, but a lot of times we have created the situation because we kinda refuse to truly accept what we know and feel.

 

I know it's against the grain, but given the opportunity for a redo I would have sat my wife down and laid it all out for her, gave her the opportunity to come clean having made her feel comfortable enough to do so.

 

Instead I drove myself half crazy, in the end my gut was right I didn't need a smoking gun ( never found one BTW) i just needed to accept it.

 

I say the odds are good she is having some kind of inappropriate relationship, sometime it's minor enough to throw off her behavior but not enough that even a PI would find evidence. Especially if it's a workplace EA in its infancy.

[merrmeade]

I tend to agree with the most part, thank you, but what possible outcomes you think I haven't described?

I had the hardest time figuring out what to say in that post and finally realized that I couldn't quantify all the possible outcomes, but I knew they weren't limited to the three you over-specified.

 

However, that said, maybe it was just late and my brain wasn't able to shift into overview mode because the responses that followed all hit on important considerations and relevant personal examples. You have to operate on two levels. You need objective, logical thinking behind your detective work and interpretation of the evidence and your spouse's mindset, but you must trust your gut instinct at the same time.

 

Some possibilities to consider are -

If she's not cheating, then what IS going on? What are those unreadable behaviors that you couldn't relate to? Why couldn't you? How does she respond to your explanation of what's been troubling you? If you're not available and transparent to each other, do you want to be? If not, then what IS your marriage ideal? What do you want to do about achieving that? Do you want to do marriage counseling?

 

And that's just the beginning. You simply jumped to "but wants to leave the marriage" for your "not cheating" scenario. There are many more. - not cheating but preoccupied with .... (so many possibilities). To me, the more important follow-up to this one why are you two so out of touch?

 

For the cheating scenario, there's certainly how much cheating (once? long-term?) and how much lying and how she feels about all of this. And this is where you could be doing more homework. WSs have a whole gamut of possible responses immediately. If you're considering reconciliation, that's a whole new universe of variables that depend on WS remorse and both WS and BS commitment and ability to communicate and empathize.

 

I would give my husband different scores for empathy, remorse and transparency right after D-day from what I'd give him today, and I'm largely responsible for any improvements and no apologies for taking the credit. Are you willing to go through what I did to get your spouse up to viable? I don't recommend it actually. The toll is great though the reward can be as well and I'm still not sure it is worth what it took out of me.

 

As you can see, I have a hard time holding my focus, both emotional and mental, and being consistent with priorities, and what's most important to me in marriage and in life has changed a lot. I think if I had it to do over again (with future vision), I would have made him leave.

 

So all that said, maybe I'm just complicated and that's the value of posting on a forum with dozens of people responding.

Edited November 30, 2016 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

I do think you need to think about how you'll assess and respond to her reactions to being exposed (if she's been cheating in even an EA). Read about remorse and what it looks like. Read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal After Your Affair" by LInda MacDonald so you know what it should look like. Be ready to tell her what you'd expect (if she tries to go there) and have the book ready for her to read.

 

Decide how you'll react to trickle truth - revealing a little bit of truth at a time - in advance.

 

If you give an ultimatum, be specific and then follow through if it's broken.

 

With my husband, this was only as effective as his suspicions about how much I knew and the risk of my following through with my threats. I watched him hold back, hold back, hold back - and I mean literally both of us sitting in suspended, immeasurably tense silence - while his mind weighed all consequences and my mind sorted through reasons for his silence.

 

In the end, I never trusted my gut instinct, and that meant I could be lied to and nothing would happen. That's my Achilles heel. What's yours?

[Drone117]

Thank you for sharing, sorry you had to go through all of this and hope you are doing fine now.

 

I can tick probably more than a half of points in your post. Yes, each time I get "everything is fine" from someone I used to trust blindly all these years I tend to believe that, not my brain or instinct. I must be reminded I guess.

 

If it turns up something is rotten in the Dutch Kingdom, well that's a good lesson taught.

 

 

Drone,

So sorry you are going through this... one thing to consider is if she is hiding money, or taken out credit cards in her name only.

 

My ex (of almost 30 years) had a second cell phone and was still bringing me flowers and leaving love notes for me up until the end.

 

I too had a gut feeling. It was instinct. It was in small things like he was talking in a different way... using words I hadn't heard him use before... almost like he was being coached.

 

He stopped kissing me when being intimate.

 

He was "working" more.

 

He was grumpy ALL the time.

 

His interest in doing things as a family waned to almost never.

 

I never ever persuade proof because I already knew in my gut... but I learned only after the divorce that he was in a relationship with his Co worker for almost a year before we even separated.

 

So when we were on an anniversary trip and he bought me jewelry and flowers and told me he couldn't live without me and I was the love of his life and how blessed he was to have me and how I make him a better man he was already in a full on physical and emotional affair with his Co worker.

 

Looking back it is unbelievable the deceit, cover up and lies.

 

All from a man I never would have suspected was capable of that.

 

We were the picture perfect couple... he was looked upon as a really great guy with an excellent moral compass to the extent some family member do not believe he did what he did to this day.

 

Your gut is never ever ever wrong.

[Drone117]

I have no default position. I assume that I'd try to salvage it after many happy years. However this is only an assumption as without a proof I think the reality is not sinking in.

 

If or when I discover they're is more than "temporary going out of sync due to marriage evolution and personal development" my position may very well change.

 

 

 

 

 

Your default position, if she is found to have been in an affair, seems to be to salvage the marriage. I think it would be wise to put a lot of thought into why you would feel that way. If your partner for all things in life has no problem lying straight to your face while conducting an affair with another man, why would you want to stay with her?

 

The answer typically has to do with fear. At that point you will feel that you've already lost everything from probably your most significant investment in life. You'll be in a scramble to try to salvage what you can. While many people discuss that a wayward spouse can be caught up in an "affair fog," I think this sense of desperation is a form of fog for a betrayed spouse. We are emotionally damaged and just want to stop the bleeding. And we further lower our value and self-esteem by being willing to accept unacceptable treatment.

 

I think your default position should be that you will not accept unacceptable behavior and will have no plans to remain in a marriage where your wife is a liar and cheater. And you should only consider staying IF she bends over backwards to convince you otherwise. That is a much healthier default position that values you.

[Drone117]

,

In the end, I never trusted my gut instinct, and that meant I could be lied to and nothing would happen. That's my Achilles heel. What's yours?

 

I would really like to have an answer to this question. Even if it is too late. You seem to be correct with the rest of your post.

[Jersey born raised]

Please understand the motives of the posters on your thread. We want you to come out whole as possible regardless of the outcome of the flags. That's all. I saw you mention the marriage might be out of sink for a bit, that you are holding off deciding what to do until you do know. That you will construct a post divorce life scenario, that you have moved to discover the truth independentaly. You are ready to handle what life throws at you. Be at peace.

[Whatnotagain]

I get you are thinking the whole team returned Thursday' date=' and my wife stayed with the lover, it is normal for their team to return on different days. [/quote']

If that is the case and it is normal for her team to travel at different times, then she should have given you an explanation as to why she was returning when she did. This is a big red flag. That explanation should have been provided back then and not now, after the fact. It almost doesn’t matter what she says about it now because what are you to believe? If she did not tell you why she was returning when she did then that is a lie of omission. She did not tell you because she didn’t want you to know and she didn’t want to give you an alternate explanation because that would be lying.

 

When my wife and I traveled we would provide each other with information about flights, hotels, car rentals, and sometimes our agendas. If she was going to travel on a Sunday there would be a reason like a meeting on Monday morning she would miss if she flew on Monday. Or she would travel home on Friday morning instead of Thursday night because there were no available flights that would get her home before midnight. The fact that you don’t know why she returned when she did and you’re having to guess and speculate is troubling.

[BluesPower]

Yes, but wait there is more, the hotel for the extra night was not on the corp exp report.

 

That little tidbit is the most damming of all.

[Nirbhao.Nirvair]

If it turns up something is rotten in the Dutch Kingdom

 

Sorry, I'm being pedantic here, but it's Denmark (unless you are in The Netherlands now).

[merrmeade]

Sorry, I'm being pedantic here, but it's Denmark (unless you are in The Netherlands now).

I think he was probably being facetious.

[merrmeade]

Please understand the motives of the posters on your thread. We want you to come out whole as possible regardless of the outcome of the flags. That's all. I saw you mention the marriage might be out of sink for a bit, that you are holding off deciding what to do until you do know. That you will construct a post divorce life scenario, that you have moved to discover the truth independentaly. You are ready to handle what life throws at you. Be at peace.

Awww, I really love this - sort of a rite of passage blessing. I'm not sure anyone could gather all these ducks, much less get put them in a row, but I also feel confident you'll figure out a way to prepare.

 

I would really like to have an answer to this question. Even if it is too late.

i truly pray this question becomes irrelevant.

[Jersey born raised]

Are there any children ? I believe you mentioned married ten years, how long have you known her?

 

By the way your English is amazing. You mentioned several facts that indicate non-anglo background but they where very minor and I didn't pick up on them until I read your thread.

[Drone117]

I think he was probably being facetious.

 

I know the difference between the state of Denmark and "Dutch Kingdom".

[Drone117]

Are there any children ? I believe you mentioned married ten years, how long have you known her?

 

By the way your English is amazing. You mentioned several facts that indicate non-anglo background but they where very minor and I didn't pick up on them until I read your thread.

 

Yes, one child. Know her little over 10 y. Correct, I'm not a native English speaker if it matters.

[fenix]

Hi Drone,

 

What kind of actions are you taking to find out the truth? When is the PI going to start helping you? Have you already planted the VAR?

 

Are you Dutch?

[Jersey born raised]

Thanks for the addition info. Having a child involved changes the focus of what you should be planning. Understand custody issues are in a state of flux and while traditional geared towards woman having primary custody, a change in habits in you, a good lawyer and solid planning can result in you having primary custody.

 

Understand custody and divorce are two separate legal issues. Depending on the divorce laws where you file divorce may or may not involve spousal support for decades and division of assists.

 

Custody is generally based on best interests first and foremost in best interest of the child. Once custody is determined child support for each parent is decieded and is based on time spent with each partner and income level of each parent will determine the payment of Chios support. Even with a 50/50 custody agreement because of the difference in income level you will pay child support. Just less.

 

No it does not matter you are not native English speaking. But cultural differences do. We all enter into marriage with unspoken assumptions. Note the first three letters of "assumption". Knowing what the impulses of the other person will be is vital.

 

I am telling you right now the biggest thing that will keep you sane is your child. The greater the custody the more sanity. I know your job is demanding but you can and must make primary custody your goal. Do not throw it in her face that this is your goal, just quietly do it.

[road]

Sorry, I'm being pedantic here, but it's Denmark (unless you are in The Netherlands now).

 

I think he was probably being facetious.

 

Dutch, Denmark, Holland, Netherlands, Tomato, Tomata, any other name still the third world.

[spanz1]

Ok, call me paranoid, but here's an example from this weekend. She doesn't like business trips. That was her main concern when considering new job back then. And when she travels and not able to get back home on Friday midday the latest this is like a small tragedy for her. As weekend starting Friday night is "us time".

 

This trip they finished the work so late on Friday (seems to be truth based on the info I've gathered) they had to rebook flights for Saturday. Yet she came home like nothing happened, not a slightest sign.

 

Never imagined myself being insecure but this is starting to freak me out.

 

 

 

Who is "THEY". If it is a man, and in fact the same man from trip to trip, THEN I would get very concerned.

 

 

If she makes these trips alone, or with different people, then I would just think she is going thru some sort of phase in life, like maybe wondering if she likes her job still, and you are just seeing signs of her being not sure of the career. Traveling for business, for most people, is very tedious and tiring.

[spanz1]

Yes, but wait there is more, the hotel for the extra night was not on the corp exp report.

 

That little tidbit is the most damming of all.

 

 

 

THat is odd! Why, if it was a business related delay???

[spanz1]

 

Had a chat with PI. Coincidentally he told me almost the same thing. That she might be cheating or just checked out. Or in between. In any case he'll be able to start working for me in a week. Have some homework to do in the meantime as he suggested. Some is what you have been telling me before, some is new.

 

S2B: Don't know, no date set.

 

 

 

So get this out of your mind for now. In a few weeks you will know for sure. For now, find a good health club and go work out. You have too much stress over this, and there is no proven reason for it yet.

[BluesPower]

spanz1 that is kind of the point...

 

She spent the rest of the weekend with OM. OP is having a hard time believing that with out total and complete evidence.

 

He will one he gets it. I hope he can deal with it because it just sucks.

[MargR]

I think it is important to trust your instincts. She is smart enough to be hiding the big things from you, but it's the little ones that are giving her away.

 

Chances are she is talking to her lover when she's in the car. Hiding a recording device is the best idea. If you have an iphone, you can also check Frequent Locations. See if any place out of the ordinary comes up.

 

Keep spying. She is not going to come clean unless you have evidence. Most cheaters deny, deny, deny.

[Drone117]

I have good and bad news. Good news are that I won't have to involve a PI. Bad news - she's cheating full scale. Got access to her hidden electronic diary, it's all crystal clear.

 

Not sure if my sarcasm or irony is unusual. Maybe it is the defense mechanism kicking in.

Could've written how floored, heartbroken, lost and crushed I am. Truth is I'm not feeling that way. Maybe it will come but for now I'm angry, bitter and betrayed. And totally pissed off.

 

Best.

[Jump Through Loops]

Oh crap, Drone. I'm so sorry.

I have no words of advice as I've never been where you are now. I can only tell you that my heart goes out to you. Stay strong.