Is anything going on

[merrmeade]

Since OP has her diary I'm not sure there will be much trickle-truth involved with this affair. He knows much more than she realizes so the only damaging thing she can do is continue her lying ways.

 

OP - she is afraid you are going to divorce her so you are in a rare position to use that to extract other truths. Like you could tell her how disgusted you are with all her lying and that she is continuing it even now. Then say something like "ok - here's a chance for you to be completely truthful. Is this the first or only time you have cheated on me?" Remind her how much you know about this affair and that your source is bulletproof so - do you want to come clean about everything? You might get an interesting answer.

Have YOU ever tried this with a practiced gaslighter/TTer? To such a WS, these are just words. s/he will stare at the BS thinking and weighing the odds that - if s/he does not "come clean about everything" - the BS will find out some other way. You can even try threats along with it, such as, "If I find out you've been lying or hiding more than you've said, we're done." WS will also weigh actual possibilities BS will follow through with the threat. Lots of factors and with someone who's succeeded in keeping the BS in the dark before, WS will have to decide likelihood that BS actually might find out some other way. WS will be thinking all that - unless WS is truly remorseful. And that's a different everything.

[Jersey born raised]

Drone,

 

If you are in the US or England and she works for a large company her OM will be fired in many cases. My brothers company hired a CEO, moved him to the states, introduced him at a Christmas party, he proposition two female employes for he suggested a three way. They fired him the next morning and had his visa revoked. Now, the outgoing CEO had a wife and family in the states and another overseas. The company was not happy about it, but stayed out of it since it was not company related and no laws where broken (he never married the overseas wife.).

 

Why the difference? Lawyers and lawsuits. Yes she appeared willing but a good lawyer will say "appeared". She was given no choice since he was a star employee.

[drifter777]

Have YOU ever tried this with a practiced gaslighter/TTer? To such a WS, these are just words. s/he will stare at the BS thinking and weighing the odds that - if s/he does not "come clean about everything" - the BS will find out some other way. You can even try threats along with it, such as, "If I find out you've been lying or hiding more than you've said, we're done." WS will also weigh actual possibilities BS will follow through with the threat. Lots of factors and with someone who's succeeded in keeping the BS in the dark before, WS will have to decide likelihood that BS actually might find out some other way. WS will be thinking all that - unless WS is truly remorseful. And that's a different everything.

 

Yes, you are probably correct. I think it's worth a try though if OP is interested in the full truth about their marriage.

[harrybrown]

have her write you a timeline and diary of the A.

 

Has she outed the OM to his wife and his work and filed a sexual harrassment complaint?

 

or is she still protecting him ahead of you?

 

sorry but she is not who you thought, since she stabbed you in the back.

[Drone117]

Truth be told she is not trying to minimize the scope or extent of her involvement with him. In other words she's not trying to convince me "we were just friends, we were just flirting, we have just kissed, ...". She admitted it was physical, how long did it take (although she counts it from that f..g business trip), and that it was not some sort of drunken "Oh my God what have I done" in the morning encounter. So she gives me some sort of short narrative, similar to what I'm posting here in a way.

 

Her diary is indeed very detailed and explicit (wish it wasn't) but do you really expect her sitting me down and - without me pushing for it - giving me the same minute by minute report? Seriously?

 

If she makes her mind and comes up with this and other steps some of you suggested as a way of "saving the marriage", fine I'll take that for what it is. But I'm certainly not pushing for that just because I can. Nor am I begging her to stay with me. She seemed to be really involved with this guy and she keeps telling me "I know I lost you" so I think this is the likely outcome right now.

 

Crossroads is the right metaphor.

[Drone117]

have her write you a timeline and diary of the A.

 

Has she outed the OM to his wife and his work and filed a sexual harrassment complaint?

 

or is she still protecting him ahead of you?

 

sorry but she is not who you thought, since she stabbed you in the back.

 

Harassment? WTF? I know, she knows this was not a harassment. I wish it was, but it was not. I she'd do that I would think about her even lover than I do now.

[Jersey born raised]

Crossed post, info requested Drone just posted.

 

So Drone what are you doing with your marriage? What do you want if you divorce?

Edited December 12, 2016 by Jersey born raised

[Jersey born raised]

I know it is not harassment, but the company does not. Also from the companies POV better safe than sorry.

 

Oh, by the way what about her child's father? What is the wife doing to protect the father of her child?

[drifter777]

Truth be told she is not trying to minimize the scope or extent of her involvement with him. In other words she's not trying to convince me "we were just friends, we were just flirting, we have just kissed, ...". She admitted it was physical, how long did it take (although she counts it from that f..g business trip), and that it was not some sort of drunken "Oh my God what have I done" in the morning encounter. So she gives me some sort of short narrative, similar to what I'm posting here in a way.

 

Her diary is indeed very detailed and explicit (wish it wasn't) but do you really expect her sitting me down and - without me pushing for it - giving me the same minute by minute report? Seriously?

 

If she makes her mind and comes up with this and other steps some of you suggested as a way of "saving the marriage", fine I'll take that for what it is. But I'm certainly not pushing for that just because I can. Nor am I begging her to stay with me. She seemed to be really involved with this guy and she keeps telling me "I know I lost you" so I think this is the likely outcome right now.

 

Crossroads is the right metaphor.

 

You are right - a timeline now isn't of much value other than to test her for lies and it sounds like it's too late for that to matter.

 

Her acceptance of "losing you" and the ultimate end of your marriage must be painful - even though you are ready to divorce her anyway it is still tough facing such a cold reality. But in the longer run she is helping you in that the sooner you stop living with her the sooner you will begin to detach from her and begin to heal. I really am sorry all of this happened to you.

[kgcolonel]

Drone....is salvaging the relationship even in the cards for you? I remember your reference to Saint and Quit her job but after reading so many of these situations, I take the initial comments for what they are many times as a release or venting of extreme frustration, anger, hurt, betrayal etc.....

 

Have you had a chance or desire to have a conversation with her about next steps that you can classify as productive, not so much in putting it back together but in which way is this going to go?

 

Can you tell either from her or from the journal her contact / position with the jerk at work? It almost sounds as though she's given up without any kind of fight thus she really isn't all that into an attempted R....very sad for both you and your child.....

 

BTW, do you have a son or daughter....this will, sadly effect your child...very very sad she is so caught up in her own interests and not considering the child's interest and having an intact home.

 

One more (tiring I know) question, why do you think she is saying that she knew she's lost you....early responses or your disposition in general to cheating or something else?

[kgcolonel]

Candidly, I'll bet a month's wages....he's not nearly into her as much as she thinks....when she's now available, he'll move to someone else....He'll want strange.....this makes it all the more sad....

[Sweetfish]

Truth be told she is not trying to minimize the scope or extent of her involvement with him. In other words she's not trying to convince me "we were just friends, we were just flirting, we have just kissed, ...". She admitted it was physical, how long did it take (although she counts it from that f..g business trip), and that it was not some sort of drunken "Oh my God what have I done" in the morning encounter. So she gives me some sort of short narrative, similar to what I'm posting here in a way.

 

Her diary is indeed very detailed and explicit (wish it wasn't) but do you really expect her sitting me down and - without me pushing for it - giving me the same minute by minute report? Seriously?

 

If she makes her mind and comes up with this and other steps some of you suggested as a way of "saving the marriage", fine I'll take that for what it is. But I'm certainly not pushing for that just because I can. Nor am I begging her to stay with me. She seemed to be really involved with this guy and she keeps telling me "I know I lost you" so I think this is the likely outcome right now.

 

Crossroads is the right metaphor.

 

 

As the days go by I see your becoming more and more level headed and logical. Good because you are making wise decisions and keeping calm. I'm glad you value your self that this doesn't become "war of the roses" per se.

 

No point than doing anything other than a divorce.

 

I wouldn't even react and stay silent and learn and research about the divorce process and when your done serve the papers.

[Birdies]

he started flirting with her 4 month ago when they started to work together. In September he made the first move which she rejected..

Not strong enough, he doubled the effort.

 

Actually that IS sexual harassment in the workplace! It's basically the exact definition of it.

 

I'm sorry this is happening to you. Hugs.

[turnera]

Truth be told she is not trying to minimize the scope or extent of her involvement with him. In other words she's not trying to convince me "we were just friends, we were just flirting, we have just kissed, ...". She admitted it was physical, how long did it take (although she counts it from that f..g business trip), and that it was not some sort of drunken "Oh my God what have I done" in the morning encounter. So she gives me some sort of short narrative, similar to what I'm posting here in a way.

 

Her diary is indeed very detailed and explicit (wish it wasn't) but do you really expect her sitting me down and - without me pushing for it - giving me the same minute by minute report? Seriously?

 

If she makes her mind and comes up with this and other steps some of you suggested as a way of "saving the marriage", fine I'll take that for what it is. But I'm certainly not pushing for that just because I can. Nor am I begging her to stay with me. She seemed to be really involved with this guy and she keeps telling me "I know I lost you" so I think this is the likely outcome right now.

 

Crossroads is the right metaphor.

Wait, so you're letting her decide if SHE wants to keep the marriage?

[Buckeye2]

She seemed to be really involved with this guy and she keeps telling me "I know I lost you" so I think this is the likely outcome right now.

 

She’s taking your lack of response as an answer. Either she’s torn between you and the OM or she wants the OM and feels guilty about moving on without you. Either way your lack of response reduces her stress and makes her feel better. That's why she keeps telling you that over and over. Plus she's confirming that the decision is out of her hands so she can’t be blamed. In her mind she’s saying I gave him chance after chance, don’t blame me.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Buckeye2

[S2B]

Truth be told she is not trying to minimize the scope or extent of her involvement with him. In other words she's not trying to convince me "we were just friends, we were just flirting, we have just kissed, ...". She admitted it was physical, how long did it take (although she counts it from that f..g business trip), and that it was not some sort of drunken "Oh my God what have I done" in the morning encounter. So she gives me some sort of short narrative, similar to what I'm posting here in a way.

 

Her diary is indeed very detailed and explicit (wish it wasn't) but do you really expect her sitting me down and - without me pushing for it - giving me the same minute by minute report? Seriously?

 

If she makes her mind and comes up with this and other steps some of you suggested as a way of "saving the marriage", fine I'll take that for what it is. But I'm certainly not pushing for that just because I can. Nor am I begging her to stay with me. She seemed to be really involved with this guy and she keeps telling me "I know I lost you" so I think this is the likely outcome right now.

 

Crossroads is the right metaphor.

 

I'm baffled that you don't decide what YOU want for yourself?

 

Why does she decide? What about you? It looks kinda of like you've taken a bit of a doormat role at this juncture.

 

If I'm wrong then please clarify.

[Sweetfish]

Wait, so you're letting her decide if SHE wants to keep the marriage?

 

She’s taking your lack of response as an answer. Either she’s torn between you and the OM or she wants the OM and feels guilty about moving on without you. Either way your lack of response reduces her stress and makes her feel better. That's why she keeps telling you that over and over. Plus she's confirming that the decision is out of her hands so she can’t be blamed. In her mind she’s saying I gave him chance after chance, don’t blame me.

 

I'm baffled that you don't decide what YOU want for yourself?

 

Why does she decide? What about you? It looks kinda of like you've taken a bit of a doormat role at this juncture.

 

If I'm wrong then please clarify.

 

 

I think this is by far the manliest thing, I ve seen on this site yet.

 

The OP knows what he is dealing with... he is nor dumb or a doormat.

I highly doubt he wants to react either. I have a feeling he doesn't.

 

If he demands they stop seeing each other.. what does that do?

He can't kick her out of the house.

Fighting will resolve nothing.

 

The only thing to do is serve the divorce papers...

 

His attitude brings him power and value to the table.

[Drone117]

he started flirting with her 4 month ago when they started to work together. In September he made the first move which she rejected..

Not strong enough, he doubled the effort.

 

Actually that IS sexual harassment in the workplace! It's basically the exact definition of it.

 

I'm sorry this is happening to you. Hugs.

 

Thanks and you are right. By the book it is a canonical harassment. Only I know and she knows it wasn't a harassment. She had ample opportunities to stop him, she didn't, I don't count "uh, oh, I'm married".

 

If she files the complaint, how is it different when one of my subordinates who had his promotion denied because of pure incompetence found nothing better than file the bullying and racial discrimination against me?

 

I admit 2-3 times I ended up wishing badly for this to be a harassment, undue pressure, blackmail, so I can start forgiving her... It was not.

 

Of course it doesn't mean he's off the hook, but not by me pushing her to file the complaint.

[Drone117]

I'm baffled that you don't decide what YOU want for yourself?

 

Why does she decide? What about you? It looks kinda of like you've taken a bit of a doormat role at this juncture.

 

If I'm wrong then please clarify.

 

I will use this quote to reply to both you and Turnera. I don't mind being called "doormat" if I behave like one and correct my actions. So thank you for taking your time to respond and post. There are some things I will and won't do no matter what but this is besides the point.

 

Anyway I fail to see how my quoted post indicates that I'm not deciding what I want, that I left the authority to decide with her and that I ask - "please" type of ask i assume - her to consider saving they marriage.

 

Specifically following has happened so far.

 

- I told her about my intentions and next steps (separation, divorce, so on)

- Set up some ground rules, she's agreed to (although her reaction was not what I expected, i was actually going to ask for advice here)

- asked (yes, asked) her to let me know her intentions and next steps so we can move on. She agreed to this as well but admitted she is lost, doesn't know what to do, and what do I think she should do next as she "doesn't want us to end like this". That's where I replied she needs to make her mind and decide what she wants to do wrt marriage, for the sake of the kid if nothing else.

[Drone117]

I think this is by far the manliest thing, I ve seen on this site yet.

 

The OP knows what he is dealing with... he is nor dumb or a doormat.

I highly doubt he wants to react either. I have a feeling he doesn't.

 

If he demands they stop seeing each other.. what does that do?

He can't kick her out of the house.

Fighting will resolve nothing.

 

The only thing to do is serve the divorce papers...

 

His attitude brings him power and value to the table.

 

Liked that. Guilty.

[Pete2304]

If she chooses you, what then? Can you truly handle taking her back? I'm all for second chances, especially where marriage is concerned but it's not easy, in fact it's painfully difficult but it can be done.

[aileD]

I will use this quote to reply to both you and Turnera. I don't mind being called "doormat" if I behave like one and correct my actions. So thank you for taking your time to respond and post. There are some things I will and won't do no matter what but this is besides the point.

 

Anyway I fail to see how my quoted post indicates that I'm not deciding what I want, that I left the authority to decide with her and that I ask - "please" type of ask i assume - her to consider saving they marriage.

 

Specifically following has happened so far.

 

- I told her about my intentions and next steps (separation, divorce, so on)

- Set up some ground rules, she's agreed to (although her reaction was not what I expected, i was actually going to ask for advice here)

- asked (yes, asked) her to let me know her intentions and next steps so we can move on. She agreed to this as well but admitted she is lost, doesn't know what to do, and what do I think she should do next as she "doesn't want us to end like this". That's where I replied she needs to make her mind and decide what she wants to do wrt marriage, for the sake of the kid if nothing else.

 

Just watch out. Letting her decide when she's "lost and doesn't know what to do" could just drag this thing out for a year. Yeah it happened to me. You wanna know what made him finally make up his mind and not be lost anymore?

 

A text that said "we might as well get divorced if you're not gonna stop seeing her, can you talk to your boss about writing it up?" (His boss is a lawyer). We are together, he chose me. But it was a hard year.

 

There is this great quote that says "can't make a decision? Flip a coin making heads one decision and tales the other. while the coin is in the air, you will then know what you want the outcome to be"

 

Sometimes divorce papers can be the flip of the coin.

[merrmeade]

I will use this quote to reply to both you and Turnera. I don't mind being called "doormat" if I behave like one and correct my actions. So thank you for taking your time to respond and post. There are some things I will and won't do no matter what but this is besides the point.

 

Anyway I fail to see how my quoted post indicates that I'm not deciding what I want, that I left the authority to decide with her and that I ask - "please" type of ask i assume - her to consider saving they marriage.

 

Specifically following has happened so far.

 

- I told her about my intentions and next steps (separation, divorce, so on)

- Set up some ground rules, she's agreed to (although her reaction was not what I expected, i was actually going to ask for advice here)

- asked (yes, asked) her to let me know her intentions and next steps so we can move on. She agreed to this as well but admitted she is lost, doesn't know what to do, and what do I think she should do next as she "doesn't want us to end like this". That's where I replied she needs to make her mind and decide what she wants to do wrt marriage, for the sake of the kid if nothing else.

Drone, it's absurd and thoughtless to try and bully a betrayed spouse into defending his actions - especially with one doing as well as yourself and making good choices independently. You don't have to respond to namecalling or prove yourself. You're clearly not a doormat. You're doing great.

[Nirbhao.Nirvair]

If she chooses you, what then? Can you truly handle taking her back? I'm all for second chances, especially where marriage is concerned but it's not easy, in fact it's painfully difficult but it can be done.

 

 

I may be wrong here. But i don't think OP's wife is dragging her feet on deciding between him and the OM, but instead not consenting to the decision that Drone has proposed i.e to agree to a divorce. If i got this right, i think what Drone is saying here is that, his wife has agreed that what she has done does warrant a divorce, but she herself doesn't see her consenting to it and hence she is lost.

 

That's just inaction on her part. She is probably hoping if she can stall this for a week, maybe, Drone might relent somewhat.

[road]

I may be wrong here. But i don't think OP's wife is dragging her feet on deciding between him and the OM, but instead not consenting to the decision that Drone has proposed i.e to agree to a divorce. If i got this right, i think what Drone is saying here is that, his wife has agreed that what she has done does warrant a divorce, but she herself doesn't see her consenting to it and hence she is lost.

 

That's just inaction on her part. She is probably hoping if she can stall this for a week, maybe, Drone might relent somewhat.

 

 

 

So let her stall. Drone should tell her you are free to go to the OM so go and go now. Then have her served. Talk about a wake up call.

 

 

I usually support recovery. Though what Drone has posted here if he decides to do so he should tell his WW that the divorce has to go through then she can court him will trying to repair the damage she did. Second WW must file sexual harassment charges against the OM. Then after that has been brought to whatever legal end WW has to resign that job.