Trump and God

[Larsoncity]

In Trump's present mentality, the two are not comparable in any way, shape or form.

 

At higher levels, Trump's value is that he is - albeit, perhaps, inadvertently, unwillingly and perhaps even agains- uniting many previously-disparate groups of people, who are all coming together in the name of compassion, inclusiveness, tolerance, justice and a basically-felt love for humanity and the planet. These are, of course, all 'godly' or 'goodly' qualities, and what Jesus exemplified and spoke out for.

 

I'm sorry but what do you mean by uniting?

[Ronni_W]

I'm sorry but what do you mean by uniting?

People of different groups/cultures/professions/traditions are coming together - mentally, emotionally and through physical action - under a single cause - and these people would either not have felt or not have thought to do so before (their real and perceived differences have, so far, kept them apart more than brought them together).

 

Thanks to Trump they now, though, have found a common ground in what they stand and are willing to stand up and speak out for - they have found their 'line in the sand', so to speak; and, they realize that there's precious little difference in where they draw this line.

 

Now; yes, at this point it's only to protest against, but, nonetheless, it's a start. (If we look at the evolution of our history, especially as far as real social justice and reform, then this is the first step; which, as is evident, does come with inconvenience, rhetoric and people 'taking to the street'.)

The vision is, of course, that things will remain calm and peaceful or non-violent and that sanity will ultimately prevail.

[Larsoncity]

People of different groups/cultures/professions/traditions are coming together - mentally, emotionally and through physical action - under a single cause - and these people would either not have felt or not have thought to do so before (their real and perceived differences have, so far, kept them apart more than brought them together).

 

Thanks to Trump they now, though, have found a common ground in what they stand and are willing to stand up and speak out for - they have found their 'line in the sand', so to speak; and, they realize that there's precious little difference in where they draw this line.

 

Now; yes, at this point it's only to protest against, but, nonetheless, it's a start. (If we look at the evolution of our history, especially as far as real social justice and reform, then this is the first step; which, as is evident, does come with inconvenience, rhetoric and people 'taking to the street'.)

The vision is, of course, that things will remain calm and peaceful or non-violent and that sanity will

 

Who do you mean by "They"? I think this is the most polarized I have ever seen politics in my life.

[Ronni_W]

Who do you mean by "They"? I think this is the most polarized I have ever seen politics in my life.

Do you mean my use of 'they' as in, "they have found their 'line in the sand', so to speak"?

I was referring to all the "People of different groups/cultures/professions/traditions...".

 

As an example, there are 127 technology firms that "have signed a brief opposing President Trump's immigration ban" -- many of these are business rivals/competitors.

 

No need to overthink it, Larsoncity. I'm just saying that we haven't seen this level of public collaboration before, and that, personally, I think it's a good thing. If my view is polarized, it's polarized. .

[Larsoncity]

Do you mean my use of 'they' as in, "they have found their 'line in the sand', so to speak"?

I was referring to all the "People of different groups/cultures/professions/traditions...".

 

As an example, there are 127 technology firms that "have signed a brief opposing President Trump's immigration ban" -- many of these are business rivals/competitors.

 

No need to overthink it, Larsoncity. I'm just saying that we haven't seen this level of public collaboration before, and that, personally, I think it's a good thing. If my view is polarized, it's polarized. .

 

I'm just very amazed at the difference in interpretation of Trump and his support. I would say the complete opposite. So when I refer to your use of THEY I wonder who you are referring to. Maybe it's geographic. I do not understand how someone who is being reasonably critical can have an opinion about Trump that is without some degree of reservation. I am not calling you unreasonable or trying to be insulting but it is genuine awe that you seem to have such an opinion that is the complete opposite of my view.

[Ronni_W]

I'm just very amazed at the difference in interpretation of Trump and his support. I would say the complete opposite.

Oh, I see...I think .

 

My support for Trump is (only) that he is helping to awaken people to the absurdity of some of his notions. It's not geographical - they marched in London, Paris and Tokyo, etc., as well.

I'm not saying that the marchers and protesters are supporting HIM - rather, they are uniting against certain of his policies.

 

For me, how this ties in with the thread title -- Trump and God -- is my belief that the awakening of people happens at the Spiritual level. (Not that Trump necessarily intended to be a 'vehicle' or 'instrument' for this; only that it's turned out that way.)

 

In any event, I'm happy to agree to disagree - if such is indeed the case.

[bebe23]

In Trump's present mentality, the two are not comparable in any way, shape or form.

 

At higher levels, Trump's value is that he is - albeit, perhaps, inadvertently, unwillingly and perhaps even against his own agenda - uniting many previously-disparate groups of people, who are all coming together in the name of compassion, inclusiveness, tolerance, justice and a basically-felt love for humanity and the planet. These are, of course, all 'godly' or 'goodly' qualities, and what Jesus exemplified and spoke out for.

 

Yes. And these are all things that Trump doesn't care about. My husband voted for Trump and even though I abhor the Clintons' corruptions, I had to cancel out his vote back in November. With health care and children's educations at risk, as well as his stoking up the ire of Middle Eastern countries, it is a scary time to live in.

 

I just keep telling myself that God in all His righteousness and love is still on the throne and in charge- no matter who is currently in our Oval Office.

[Ronni_W]

I just keep telling myself that God in all His righteousness and love is still on the throne and in charge-

Only in the ultimate sense; for, God's Law of Free Will means that He has gifted to us human Beings of Earth the power and authority of being in charge over what happens on Earth. This cannot be over-ridden because it would necessarily mean God having to violate His Own Law of Free Will, which allows us to make our own decisions and choices about what we want to believe and how we want to behave and perceive/treat each other on Earth.

 

(If God, at any point, just comes storming into Earth - like a knight in shining armour, so to speak - to 'save us' from our own detrimental and harmful decisions and choices (our spiritual mistakes, errors or 'sins') then, necessarily, we have lost our God-given free-will right, power and authority to make those very decisions and choices. This would, necessarily, contradict and contravene God's Vision, Design, Plan and Purpose for there being an 'Earth' in the first place. He won't do it.)

 

-------

 

I already know that this belief-view contradicts and contravenes the beliefs and views of material science and all of its faithful followers. .

I already know that, if you are one of these, your belief and view and faith is placed in the 'fact' that I am delusional, and that my belief-views are based in

the unreal and untrue; in superstition, hocus-pocus and black and/or white magic or witchcraft. I was already tried, found guilty and burned at the stake, for that. .

[S_A]

I always think this religious talk is about justifying hatred towards anything that represents 'other' (ie homosexual, female, people of colour, jews, muslims, etc).

 

You generally feel this way when you are prejudiced against religious people.

 

And to justify plain old greed and callousness.

 

Just because a handful of fake religious people (Islamic radicals and "pretend" Christians, etc) use religion to satisfy their greed through the manipulation of those who are sincerely religious, does not make all religious people as you imply they are.

Edited February 15, 2017 by S_A

[Justanaverageguy]

People of different groups/cultures/professions/traditions are coming together - mentally, emotionally and through physical action - under a single cause - and these people would either not have felt or not have thought to do so before (their real and perceived differences have, so far, kept them apart more than brought them together). Thanks to Trump they now, though, have found a common ground in what they stand and are willing to stand up and speak out for - they have found their 'line in the sand', so to speak; and, they realize that there's precious little difference in where they draw this line.

 

 

Essentially that a common enemy - someone who is a clearly against the ideals of tolerance, compassion, collaboration - allows disparate groups to come together and express these very virtues. Sometimes I feel that idea's can be better or more powerfully expressed \ encapsulated through art. I have a particular fondness for the works of MC Escher. I believe his work entitled Angels and Devils shows this idea in a unique way.

 

https://philosopherdeveloper.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/devilsangels.jpg

 

The devils in the picture create the angels. They are required in order that the angels be visible. Thus seemingly negative actions and intent - can eventually result in positive actions and outcomes. An unfortunate side effect of this concept is sometimes it works the other way we constantly look for evil to oppose - even where maybe it doesn't really exist - in an attempt to show our own goodness we unwittingly become the negative we are looking for.

 

 

Now; yes, at this point it's only to protest against, but, nonetheless, it's a start. (If we look at the evolution of our history, especially as far as real social justice and reform, then this is the first step; which, as is evident, does come with inconvenience, rhetoric and people 'taking to the street'.)

The vision is, of course, that things will remain calm and peaceful or non-violent and that sanity will ultimately prevail.

 

In order for a system or belief structure to fall or be changed often times we must see it's flaws clearly. Its my belief that Trump's emergence is part of the nadir of the current western political \ value system. While not pleasant a necessary evil to show its flaws clearly before something new and better can emerge.

 

In terms of the protest - and hope for peace and calm. I think that's important that the resistance and push for change remains that way. The message during the election was "Love trumps hate" - but sadly many of the people protesting with that slogan were not practicing what they preached. I'm hoping in the long run - trump is a catalyst for positive change and just hope we can get there without too much carnage.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[pureinheart]

Regardless of your political beliefs there are several facts about Mr. Trump that would go undisputed and can be easily verified.

 

1. he was a playboy and womanizer. Several Beauty Pageant Contestants have said that he would walk in on them while changing. As a frequent guest on Howard Stern radio show prior to his political position he frequently talked about his escapades. He is recorded saying that he tried to sleep with a married woman while he himself was married but failed. He later goes on to say that as a celebrity he can grab women by their genitals and get away with it. He used a vulgar term for cat instead of genitals.

 

2. He has a foul mouth. He is on video calling someone the c word (rhymes with bunt.)

 

3. He has a history of commenting of women looks calling women he doesn't like pigs and so forth. He called the only other female republican candidate for presidency too ugly looking to be president.

 

4. He was involved in a large fraud case that he settled regarding a fake real estate university.

 

5. His true wealth has been disputed.

 

I'm not sure how any of this makes him comparable to Jesus Christ or how it makes HIM anointed.

 

You probably described about half of the major Prophets of the O/T.. especially King David who was a man after God's own heart. God loves to use the least likely, that is how He reveals Himself...

[pureinheart]

From an outsider ( not an American) I've heard a lot about Trump being " godly ordained" to be the leader of the free world. He seems like a complete buffoon to me. However, the choices ( out of democrats and Republicans) weren't exactly great either.

 

Does anyone have any ideas on this? What opinions do people have about Trump being " ordained by God"

 

thanks

 

I Never Believed Trump Was Chosen By God Until I Saw This Prophecy, Now It All Makes Sense

 

Donald Trump has already cause more controversy than pretty much any President ever. He’s caused even a bigger stir over his interactions with high profile evangelical preachers. But we found something from 2007 that’ll cast everything in a new light.

 

Kim Clement was a well known and respected prophet. Back in 2007 he gave at the time a very unusual prophecy in that he said Trump would be come God’s Trumpet, and would be placed in the highest office in the land.

 

If you feel so inclined, please click the link and watch the entire prophecy. The prophetic is my favorite and I'm always very skeptical of those who say they have a 'word from God'... have to say, this one gave me chills.

[Ronni_W]

Essentially that a common enemy ... allows disparate groups to come together and express these very virtues. <snip> MC Escher. I believe his work entitled Angels and Devils shows this idea in a unique way

Exactly. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” In the case of President Trump, yes, the formerly-disparate groups are gathering to express more virtuous qualities.

I agree that Escher’s ‘Angels and Devils’ does a good job of representing the idea that ‘good’ cannot exist without ‘evil’. In the book by the Dalai Lama,

‘How to See Yourself As You Really Are’, is the concept that duality or relativity depends on there being a state for comparison (making it an ‘either/or’ proposition) –

- and, that the alternative is to be in a state of ‘only’ or in a consciousness of ‘oneness with’.

 

sometimes it works the other way we constantly look for evil to oppose

So, yes – in duality consciousness or the mindset of relativity, that is an ongoing process and struggle; where people feel that they cannot simply be who they are – without some type of external image against which to compare themselves – and then, when they find differences, they label those as ‘evil’ or inferior in some way...if/when they perceive that it opposes any aspect or element of their own Self, especially their cultural/religious/societal beliefs and traditions.

 

In order for a system or belief structure to fall or be changed often times we must see it's flaws clearly. Its my belief that Trump's emergence is part of the nadir <snip> to show its flaws clearly before something new and better can emerge.

That is exactly how I see it, also. So, as far as the thread title - Trump and God – I can see God working through Trump; or, rather, utilizing Trump as a ‘vehicle’ or ‘instrument’ to make those flaws clearly visible, to allow or ‘force’ people to use their own free wills to NOW decide and choose which ‘master’ they will serve;

for, ‘Ye cannot serve two masters.’ ‘Ye cannot serve God and mammon.’

 

If you are open to progressive revelation, there is an article that speaks to the need NOW for openness and transparency at all levels – personal, societal, governmental, business/financial, science, education, religious/spiritual. Truth instead of falsity and ‘fake news’. . New Year 2017 Address. (It actually also speaks to how some

people on Earth use prophecy to the detriment of their own spiritual progress.)

Edited February 19, 2017 by Ronni_W
Clarification

[Taramere]

From an outsider ( not an American) I've heard a lot about Trump being " godly ordained" to be the leader of the free world. He seems like a complete buffoon to me. However, the choices ( out of democrats and Republicans) weren't exactly great either.

 

Does anyone have any ideas on this? What opinions do people have about Trump being " ordained by God"

 

thanks

 

I think it's an excuse to avoid a dilemma. Christian principles don't seem compatible with supporting Donald Trump, and I think BetheButterfly has presented that perspective very well. However, there are a lot of Christians who want to support Trump and moreover are determined to support him. Believing in a prophecy that he is ordained to lead America probably feels like a very simple way of resolving some of the conflicts posed by the choice of whether or not to support him.

 

I welcome a debating challenge, but I don't think I'd want to try to argue with the Almighty that supporting and advocating for somebody like Trump was okay because I chose to believe in a prophecy...and how was I supposed to recognise it as one of the "false prophecies" that the Bible warns people to beware of?

[Justanaverageguy]

That is exactly how I see it, also. So, as far as the thread title - Trump and God – I can see God working through Trump; or, rather, utilizing Trump as a ‘vehicle’ or ‘instrument’ to make those flaws clearly visible, to allow or ‘force’ people to use their own free wills to NOW decide and choose which ‘master’ they will serve;

for, ‘Ye cannot serve two masters.’ ‘Ye cannot serve God and mammon.’

 

If you are open to progressive revelation, there is an article that speaks to the need NOW for openness and transparency at all levels – personal, societal, governmental, business/financial, science, education, religious/spiritual. Truth instead of falsity and ‘fake news’. . New Year 2017 Address. (It actually also speaks to how some

people on Earth use prophecy to the detriment of their own spiritual progress.)

 

Yes sounds like we have a similar perspective. I enjoyed the article - parts of it reminded me of a book I have read called Power vs Force. It discusses the different levels of consciousness at which humans exist and operate. How "truth levels" exist at the corresponding levels of consciousness. How people will grasp or interpret teachings and events both personal and global differently at each level. The "truth" even about god will be different for each person depending on where they currently operate. If your ideas or understanding of god are different then obviously what trump symbolizes relative to that god must also be different.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[aurelius99]

From an outsider ( not an American) I've heard a lot about Trump being " godly ordained" to be the leader of the free world. He seems like a complete buffoon to me. However, the choices ( out of democrats and Republicans) weren't exactly great either.

 

Does anyone have any ideas on this? What opinions do people have about Trump being " ordained by God"

 

thanks

 

Every leader is "God ordained" (see Romans 13:1).

 

Some are ordained to our benefit, some to our destruction. Be careful of who YOU are as people, America. God will give us whatever leader we deserve at the time.

[William]

As a reminder, since this is posted in our religion and spiritual beliefs section, discussion of President Trump being, or not being, ordained by the deity of one's choice is welcomed, along with discussion surrounding religious and spiritual belief systems regarding such public figures. This is not a political thread so keep discussion within the realm of personal spiritual and religious belief systems. Thanks!

[Ronni_W]

Power vs Force. It discusses the different levels of consciousness

Thanks for suggesting that book – I’ve downloaded the PDF – so much cool stuff to read, learn and understand, so little time! .

 

Actually, his ‘kinesiology calibration’ technique fits perfectly with what I’ve been looking for to help me get to my own next step in my Spiritual journey – so, thanks also to Trump’s election, without which this thread wouldn’t have been started and we would have missed the opportunity for this exchange of ideas.

[Gr8fuln2020]

You probably described about half of the major Prophets of the O/T.. especially King David who was a man after God's own heart. God loves to use the least likely, that is how He reveals Himself...

 

Ah, yes, so any and everyone who actively engages in behavior antithetical to God's teaching is now an instrument of redemption? Or perhaps it is in God's wisdom to allow wickedness to flourish so that we learn of his power??? Interesting...and an old message from those seeking ways to explain away the so much of the evil that occurs in this world.

 

I guess we should thank God for the Hitlers and Pol pots and Stalins of the world. Nah.

[pureinheart]

Ah, yes, so any and everyone who actively engages in behavior antithetical to God's teaching is now an instrument of redemption? Or perhaps it is in God's wisdom to allow wickedness to flourish so that we learn of his power??? Interesting...and an old message from those seeking ways to explain away the so much of the evil that occurs in this world.

 

I guess we should thank God for the Hitlers and Pol pots and Stalins of the world. Nah.

 

Just want to say you did a great job twisting the meaning of my reply to Larsoncity's post to the point off being completely unrecognizable.

 

Comparing Trumps past to Hitler is really out of control and way over the top. I say past because to date he's only been in office a little over two months, so his past is all you would have to go on- tell me, what has he done that you haven't done. I think many are very quick to condemn without judging their own hearts/actions first...

 

Also, please show me where I have explained away 'evil' as you say anywhere on these boards.

 

To add, FTR anyone can be used as a instrument of redemption...

Edited March 27, 2017 by pureinheart

[Gr8fuln2020]

Just want to say you did a great job twisting the meaning of my reply to Larsoncity's post to the point off being completely unrecognizable.

 

Comparing Trumps past to Hitler is really out of control and way over the top. I say past because to date he's only been in office a little over two months, so his past is all you would have to go on- tell me, what has he done that you haven't done. I think many are very quick to condemn without judging their own hearts/actions first...

 

Also, please show me where I have explained away 'evil' as you say anywhere on these boards.

 

To add, FTR anyone can be used as a instrument of redemption...

 

My apologies, but wasn't comparing Trump to Hitler. I was simply using extreme examples to illustrate the folly of your philosophy.

 

My friend, we all judge, condemn, including you. If I were to compare what he has and is attempting to do, with the power and position to do so, and what I haven't done would be easy.

 

1. Lie to the public to point of creating doubt to even the truth. Directly and intentionally to create an atmosphere of fear and insecurity

2. Tried to pass a bill that would not eliminate MILLIONS of insurers, but also limit or outright deny certain benefits and procedures that are often life-saving.

3. Belittled and offended families, veterans...

4. Belittled and objectified women

5. Bullied opponents by threatening to 'destroy' them

6. Championed the benefits of the rich at the expense of the middle class, poor

7. Mislead and cheated, defrauded thousands of students by false advertising (recently settled in court)

8. Accused the previous president of a felony w/o evidence

9. Continues to feed 'alternative facts' tweeting to continue his campaign of deceit

10. Lied about American steel to be used for the pipeline, rather going to a Russian company

11. Cozy to oppressive, dictatorial leaders

 

...that's only 11 things I haven't done. Shall I give you more examples of his lack of character?

[pureinheart]

My apologies, but wasn't comparing Trump to Hitler. I was simply using extreme examples to illustrate the folly of your philosophy.

 

My friend, we all judge, condemn, including you. If I were to compare what he has and is attempting to do, with the power and position to do so, and what I haven't done would be easy.

 

1. Lie to the public to point of creating doubt to even the truth. Directly and intentionally to create an atmosphere of fear and insecurity

2. Tried to pass a bill that would not eliminate MILLIONS of insurers, but also limit or outright deny certain benefits and procedures that are often life-saving.

3. Belittled and offended families, veterans...

4. Belittled and objectified women

5. Bullied opponents by threatening to 'destroy' them

6. Championed the benefits of the rich at the expense of the middle class, poor

7. Mislead and cheated, defrauded thousands of students by false advertising (recently settled in court)

8. Accused the previous president of a felony w/o evidence

9. Continues to feed 'alternative facts' tweeting to continue his campaign of deceit

10. Lied about American steel to be used for the pipeline, rather going to a Russian company

11. Cozy to oppressive, dictatorial leaders

 

...that's only 11 things I haven't done. Shall I give you more examples of his lack of character?

 

Concerning your list, I think you'd be surprised how all of us do/have done these things on lower levels... not the same exact situations, although lying, manipulation, etc are all the same. Also your list is not factual concerning specific points that were brought up, although this is not the thread to address them properly and factually.

 

IDK, while you consider my beliefs 'folly'... one cannot deny all of the major obstacles Trump has overcome... IMO it was complete divine intervention.

[Gr8fuln2020]

Concerning your list, I think you'd be surprised how all of us do/have done these things on lower levels... not the same exact situations, although lying, manipulation, etc are all the same. Also your list is not factual concerning specific points that were brought up, although this is not the thread to address them properly and factually.

 

IDK, while you consider my beliefs 'folly'... one cannot deny all of the major obstacles Trump has overcome... IMO it was complete divine intervention.

 

Of course you do and for you to 'properly' and 'factually' respond would require a heavy dose of denial, no doubt. And I believe that the Devil had a hand in this. You do know him? The Devil, Satan. As you very well know, your God permits the Devil to execute his sinful agenda. It seems as reasonable as your explanation. Think about it? There is no better example of anti-christ-like leader than Trump. Populist. Smooth-talker, billionaire who, despite a very long history of questionable business ventures and crude behavior, nevertheless, dupes millions of 'christians' to vote for him. Many among the self-righteous sold their souls by supporting such a wicked man. You know very well that your faith is based on a worldly appetite for a common disdain for your fellow man and a bitterness for the love of Christ that requires that you do more than you are physically willing to do. That's why you support, embrace his words and rhetoric and now actions. America is fully aware, as is the rest of the world, of the hypocrisy the religious RIGHT represent. As for factual....which of the eleven is false? But, please, try not to provide your 'alternative facts' as reasonable explanations.

 

I'll give you this, it may have been divine intervention, but as you have been witnessing, I would not be surprised if you are VERY nervous about your support for such a man. A man, who, by no reasonable definition, is godly nor sanctified.

 

12. Just wrote off past requirements that now would allow the development of lands w/o having to consider the long term effects of said development

 

13. Government contractors will no longer be required to reveal their past violations of labor, work safety, discrimination laws.

 

Also, there are many of the first 11 that I can confidently say I have not been guilty of.

[Timshel]

IDK, while you consider my beliefs 'folly'... one cannot deny all of the major obstacles Trump has overcome... IMO it was complete divine intervention.

 

Yes, always pureinheart. Yes, of course....there is choice, always. Divine Intervention does include false idols; let them chose their providence, their fate, their destiny.

 

There is always at least a fork in the road. A person could hope that Trump is on the right side of divine intervention. There is nothing of his character that would insinuate this to be the Truth.

 

I will pray for the people who believe a person such as Trump is God's choice. Let the chips fall where they may, as I have nothing to fear.

[Timshel]

I would like to post more plainly, less ominous. I don't want to offend moderation but would like to say what I am thinking about this topic.

 

I believe that our POTUS has a few screws loose. As a citizen of the U.S. I would fully enjoy that I did not believe that....that he is as randomly fruity as most prior.

 

Saying that he is chosen by God may be entirely accurate for the worst reasons. Time will tell.