love

[Lilbigman]

That's just it, I don't even know if she's in thearpy still. She refuses to take any medicine. I guess the not knowing is what gets me the most. I just have this image of her getting the help she needs and her mind clearing up to see exactly what we had.

 

The thing that gets me is she is just turning to more guys and basically over time she will be right back in this same spot. It's hard to think her family is telling her to leave me when I didn't deserve that. They never said anything about us signing a lease and her bailing. They didn't care that I supported her for the year. It's like why am I looked at like this bad guy when all I have is love. It's hard to swallow. The blocking and the ignoring was just to childish. I guess I could have accepted it better if we at least talked about it. If we sat down and she told me how she was feeling or where it came from I could have addressed the situation and we could have had a gameplan in place. To just never have that opportunity is tough.

 

I'm glad everyone here responds to me and weather I like it or not I appreciate the answers. I understand I'm not the only one this has ever happened to but it doesn't make it any easier. I'm just having a hard time accepting this. I thought after a week or two away we would have reconcile by now.

[Sunkissedpatio]

That's just it, I don't even know if she's in thearpy still. She refuses to take any medicine. I guess the not knowing is what gets me the most. I just have this image of her getting the help she needs and her mind clearing up to see exactly what we had.

 

Unfortunately if she is doing nothing about it then there isn't anything you could possibly do help her. Think of all the strife that you experienced in the relationship, the things you listed as 16 of the 18 traits, that isn't going to get better with time or with your assistance. You are going to contort yourself out of shape until you have nothing left of you in order to reassure and give her peace of mind when all that external validation will prove to be futile because it is a bottomless pit of giving to someone that can only quiet those fears and negative notions from within.

The thing that gets me is she is just turning to more guys and basically over time she will be right back in this same spot.

 

And that's why it's important to focus on you and not on her because it will drive you insane. It is her journey to live and if she is going to keep jumping from man to man for validation and learning nothing along the way that is her choice. You cannot prevent that.

 

It's hard to think her family is telling her to leave me when I didn't deserve that. They never said anything about us signing a lease and her bailing. They didn't care that I supported her for the year. It's like why am I looked at like this bad guy when all I have is love. It's hard to swallow. The blocking and the ignoring was just to childish. I guess I could have accepted it better if we at least talked about it. If we sat down and she told me how she was feeling or where it came from I could have addressed the situation and we could have had a gameplan in place. To just never have that opportunity is tough.

 

I know, SUPER annoying, and super unfair. The last thing you want is a criminal record for breaking contact with this girl where there is already a record with the police against you contacting her. It's SO not worth it. It will change and ruin the rest of your professional and personal life.

 

Shoot, you should be angry at all this!!

 

I'm glad everyone here responds to me and weather I like it or not I appreciate the answers. I understand I'm not the only one this has ever happened to but it doesn't make it any easier. I'm just having a hard time accepting this. I thought after a week or two away we would have reconcile by now.

 

Your story isn't like everyone else's, your story is unique to you and your ex and it hurts just as much as it does to others but the experience is unique to you. What is similar to other stories here is that of falling for someone who has deep seated emotional issues. That is something that a lot of people are trying to come to terms with and are struggling with around here. I'm sorry if anything I said made it sound like I was belittling your experience that was not at all my intent and that is very annoying to say to someone "your story is like everyone else's"

 

That's one of the harshest things that was said to me coming here, and yet it was a harsh truth I needed to hear. My love wasn't all that original or unique

 

But I can appreciate how it feels to hear that so I wouldn't say that to you. Nor do I know if that's the case with your relationship.

[Cheryl11111111111111]

Stay away from any illness. leave it for professionals and just say nc and leave her alone. You try and instate your opinion, it is not right. This guy wasn't even my ex and i have a million different diagnoses and the entire time he was out with someone else. I am sick to my stomach over some of these posts.

[Cheryl11111111111111]

A person's life is their life and isn't your business. It's quite disturbing to know what happened and I hope to god a cop or someone will listen to me one day so I can put this behind me. No it wont come from him. It has to be from the law. I know that much.

[Lilbigman]

Sunkiss

 

Not at all. I appreciate your words. I know my situation is unique but probably has some same things as others. I came here to talk it out with others opinions. Mental illness is no joke and it literally beats me up inside. It's like you said I should be super pissed, but instead I have her on this pedestal. I'm stuck on trying to be that knight in shining armor coming to save the day, but I can not let it destroy my life!

 

 

Cheryl I'm sorry you had to endure what you did. Cheating is ugly no way to put it. Although cheating didn't occur with us, the immediate turning towards other men for attention hurt me inside. I felt used, abandoned and cheap. I can attest to you developing issues because of this man. I honestly feel like she took all that anxiety and issues and handed them to me and just ran. It left me hear only picturing the good times which we had many, but it's blinding me from all her issues. Everything I think is good and for some reason I don't want to look at the bad. Although not many there certainly are some.

 

The clingy insecurities, going through my phone, the time she got drunk and hit me, the days I didn't say goodbye good enough of I was running late, and most of all my son saw this. He was close to her and always wondered why she would be upset. Why she would cry at work if something happened. How she would react if something didn't go easy for her. I'm constantly blaming myself. What more could I do, how could I have prevented this. So many unanswered questions with no answers.

[Downtown]

I guess my only question is she pushed away so hard and so fast that all my actions just pushed her further away?

LBMan, if she is a BPDer as you suspect, your "actions" were not the problem. She would have pushed you away no matter what your actions were. Moreover, a lack of communication is not the problem. This is why, in BPDer relationships, going to a MC is a total waste of time until the BPDer has had years of intensive therapy to address the underlying issues. Although marriage counselors generally excel at teaching communication skills, they are not trained to address those deeper issues.

 

The problem is not your choice of actions or communication but, rather, the position of the BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means you are always in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum.

 

Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. And, sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist.

 

Most of the bad came from her thinking I was pulling away, or she was going to lose me.

No, only half of her bad behavior came from her fear of abandonment, which was triggered whenever you backed off to give her breathing space. The other half came from her engulfment fear -- i.e., a suffocating feeling of being controlled and losing herself every time you drew close to her. Hence, no matter WHAT you did -- i.e., move closer or move farther away -- you could not avoid triggering one of her great fears.

 

I agree it takes "both" to make it work. I couldn't agree more, but sometimes it takes one to take the lead and pave the way.

Yes, that sometimes is true for two mature adults trying to sustain an close adult relationship. It is not true, however, when one mature adult is trying to establish a husband/wife relationship with a woman having the emotional development of a four year old. In that case, the best you can hope for with an untreated BPDer is a parent/child relationship. Yet, if that is your goal, you would be far better off trying to adopt her than trying to marry her. Until she's had many years of intensive therapy (a highly unlikely event), a BPDer is incapable of sustaining a mature relationship with anyone.

 

Do you think over time I could reach back out or would she reach back out to me?

If she is a BPDer, yes. As I noted earlier, a BPDer likely will reach out to you again. So, unfortunately, yes, yes, yes, she likely will. That's why I urged you to heed Satu's advice (post #2 above) on the wisdom of going NC and moving on to heal yourself from this toxic relationship.

 

It's hard to think her family is telling her to leave me when I didn't deserve that.... It's like why am I looked at like this bad guy when all I have is love.

As I tried to explain earlier, the closest thing a BPDer has to a self identity is the false self image of always being "The Victim." This is why she allows you to play only two roles in the toxic relationship. During the courtship period, she perceives of you as "The Rescuer," i.e., the man who has arrived to save her from unhappiness. While playing that role, you are validating her false self image of being a victim. If she were not a "victim," you would not be trying so hard to rescue her.

 

When her infatuation starts to wane, she will increasingly start perceiving you as "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of her every misfortune. Again, you are still "validating" her false self image as "The Victim" because -- as long as you play the role of "bad guy" -- she must be the innocent victim.

 

As I noted earlier, this black-white thinking -- where a person flips between perceiving of you as "all good" or "all bad" -- is the way that young children and adult BPDers think. They are too immature to handle a more mature view involving strong conflicted feelings. Hence, if your exGF is a BPDer, she likely has been bad mouthing you to her family to convince them she really has been victimized by you.

 

I just have this image of her getting the help she needs and her mind clearing up to see exactly what we had.

If she is a BPDer, what you're hoping for is not an "image" but, rather, a fantasy. By their very nature, BPD traits are invisible to nearly all high functioning BPDers. It therefore is rare for a high functioning BPDer to stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference. I would be surprised if as much as 1% of them are successful.

 

With my BPDer exW, for example, I spent a small fortune taking her to weekly therapy sessions for 15 years. She was treated by six different psychologists and (together with me) saw 3 MCs. None of it made a dent in her BPD behaviors. Not one dent.

 

Is this something we could overcome with time?

No, this is not something "we could overcome." If she is a BPDer, her healing is strictly an inside job. A team of the best psychologists cannot help her unless she has (a) the self awareness to recognize her BPD issues and (b) the ego strength to be willing to spend years working very hard on addressing those issues. As Sunkissed stated above, "You can't fix or change that no matter how much you love her. Only she can."

 

I just have this image of her getting the help she needs and her mind clearing up to see exactly what we had.

If she is a BPDer, her mind is not "unclear." She is able to think clearly and rationally most of the time. Yet, like every other adult on the planet, her judgment flies out the window whenever she has very intense feelings. This is the result not of having an "unclear mind" but, rather, of being human. Namely, the human condition -- for all of us -- is that intense feelings always distort and color our perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. Like children, BPDers experience far more of these distortions because -- given their inability to regulate their own emotions -- they experience intense feelings far more often.

 

When those feeling are not intense, however, BPDers generally are as clear minded as the rest of us. Indeed, many BPDers are wonderfully logical, inventive, and brilliant -- becoming excellent surgeons, psychologists, lawyers, teachers, and scientists. The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning folks who interact well with other people. Their feelings typically become very intense only when people make the mistake of drawing very close in friendships or marriage -- at which point the intimacy starts triggering the two fears.

 

I mention this to stress that, if your exGF is a BPDer, she does not suffer from a lack of mental clarity that could be cleared up by taking medication or getting treatment. Rather, she likely has a very clear mind. As a BPDer, her problem is that she lacks basic emotional skills that the rest of us learned during childhood. Significantly, those skills take years to acquire, especially if the person is already 23 years old.

 

She therefore needs to learn, e.g., how to do self soothing, how to regulate all her emotions to avoid intense feelings, how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating strong conflicted feelings, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident "fact," how to trust herself and others, and how to be "mindful" when close to you (i.e., remain in the present instead of escaping through daydreams into the past and future).

 

I thought after a week or two away we would have reconcile by now.

If you still suspect she is a BPDer, reconciliation should not be your objective. That R/S was toxic to both of you. Importantly, the toxicity is not something SHE was doing to you. Rather, it was something you BOTH were doing to each other. If she is a BPDer, it should be easy to see the abuse and damage she inflicted on you. What is much harder to see -- particularly if you're a caregiver like me -- is the harm you were inflicting on her. After all, you are convinced that you were "only trying to help her."

 

Yet, if she is a BPDer, your efforts to shelter her from the consequences of her own bad behaviors is harmful because it is "enabling." Specifically, it enables her to continue behaving like a spoiled young child without suffering the logical consequences of her own decisions and actions. In that way, you're destroying her opportunities to be forced to confront her own issues and learn how to manage them. Moreover, your presence in the room served to trigger her two fears. As I tried to explain above, those fears will be triggered regardless of whether you draw close or back away.

[Lilbigman]

That really hit home. I'm trying to really read your words and understand it's not just my fault. I guess I have false hope that this angle of a woman would return to our loving relationship, but I guess that loving relationship will always suffer. It's just hard to let go and understand. I just miss my friend, my lover and what I thought my future. I guess all I want is for her to reach back out to me, but reality is if she did how would I respond.

 

Thank you for responding to me. You helped me out a lot. Even if it still hurts so bad I do appreciate it.

[Downtown]

The cops involvement really just messed my mind up.

LBMan, if you've been dating a BPDer for a year, feeling like your mind is utterly confused and "messed up" is exactly how you should be feeling. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths.

 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

 

It's just hard to let go and understand.

My experience, LBMan, is that understanding your R/S dynamic -- at an intellectual level -- is the EASY part. What is hard is internalizing that knowledge so that, at a gut level, you really FEEL it is true. What you likely are struggling with now is a conflict between the feelings of your "intuitive child" and the judgment of your "logical adult." Because I had been in a 15 year relationship, it took me at least a year to bring my child's feelings into close alignment with my adult's understanding.

 

After just two weeks of intense reading on the Internet, I had a pretty good understanding of what I needed to do to get out of the toxic BPDer relationship and why I needed to do it. Yet, because my child was lagging over a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away.

 

It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was an insufficient basis on which to wholly abandon a loved one -- particularly one who was childlike. Even after I had left her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend.

 

It seems that -- for all human beings -- the inner child makes at least 90% (if not 95%) of the important decisions. I was 50 years old before I understood that simple notion. And it took me 12 years to do it.

 

What happened was that, for 12 years, I took my bipolar foster son to a weekly family group meeting with the psychologist who was treating him. Whenever the psych challenged me on something, I always had an elaborate well-thought-out explanation for doing whatever I had chosen to do. Never mind that what I had chosen was not working with my foster son and never mind that I kept repeating the same pattern year after year.

 

The psych was always greatly amused by my explanations. He would laugh and point out, in his kindly fashion, that my elaborate rationalizations could not disguise the fact that my inner child -- not my adult -- was calling all the shots, making nearly all the decisions. In any contest between the adult and child, he claimed, the child would almost always win. But I just could not swallow that concept.

 

Yet, after twelve years of his gentle rebukes, it dawned on me one night -- right as I was about to drift asleep -- why he had to be right. My inner child, I suddenly realized, is the sole judge of what is fun and what is not fun. That decision is all powerful. The adult part of my mind will nearly always conclude that it makes no sense -- indeed, would be preposterous -- to do something, go somewhere, or date someone I do not enjoy. My adult logic thus nearly always has to end up in the lap of my inner child.

 

This is why learning about my exW's problem (BPD) and my problem (excessive caregiving) is the easy part. What is difficult is internalizing that understanding, i.e., transforming knowledge into wisdom, which requires that my feelings catch up with my intellectual thoughts. I therefore encourage you to refrain from beating yourself up if it takes you several months for your intuitive feelings to catch up with your adult logic.

[LargoLagg]

I'm 36 and she is 23.

Doomed from the beginning. Add mental difficulties, and I'm not sure how a 36 year old would not predict the inevitable outcome.

 

A 13 year difference becomes a lot less problematic 10 years after that, but put a 23 year old in the mix, and it's all over but the crying.

[Sunkissedpatio]

Doomed from the beginning. Add mental difficulties, and I'm not sure how a 36 year old would not predict the inevitable outcome.

 

A 13 year difference becomes a lot less problematic 10 years after that, but put a 23 year old in the mix, and it's all over but the crying.

 

 

Ya I have to agree with this.

 

She sounds more like a typical 23 year old than anything else. The volatility, the indecision, the impulsive acts, the indecision all part and parcel of what most 23 year old women are like.

 

To focus on the notion that she is somehow "BDP" is perpetuating the notion that you were victimized in this relationship and sure that can prove self-serving to get you out of the deep pain and despair you are feeling now but it will stunt your personal growth as a person in the long run.

 

At 36 you should be focused on growing from this experience. At 23 she is still growing, testing and figuring things out so she is doing that anyway.

[Noideanow]

The agedifference in itself is not the problem, i know of marriages born out of this agedifference and actually one with more than 20 years difference and never have i seen two people so compatible and happy around each other, and in that case death was what separated them. So PACK THE ASSUMPTIONS AND STUPID GENERALISATIONS together and frow them out of the window thanks;) largolagg:D i know you have got plenty of them;) the problem is a whole other that i think too:cool: but again who knows? everybodys story is different

extra sidenote:many reasons for women to be attracted to an older man since men can get children all their life while we cant, even in the animal kingdom it happens with the blue whales because it gives the offspring a better chance of survival-)

back on track;) sorry

[Lilbigman]

There is no assumption when it comes to her anxiety disorder, it is a proven fact. I'm not making anything up to help me heal. It was one of the hardest things to witness seeing her panic attacks take place. The littlest thing such as her going to UPS to get fingerprinted, but she had the wrong paper and had to return home and go back would set her worrying away. Going to the doctors for a checkup would bring fear. The fear of her being alone for a couple hours brought panic. Again no assumption!

 

As for the age issue, I just don't buy it. Sometimes ages can play a role and sometimes they can't. To me she was just another woman. Sure she had some immature doings but I wouldn't say the age was the issue. I've been around some 30's that acted worse than her. The problem was her Anxiety and the actions that brought out. Maybe she did have daddy issues to.

[Lilbigman]

Downtown is pretty much on to what I dealt with for this past year. See she did have a clear mind for the most part. She was bright, funny and had a great sense of humor. Music brought us close as we enjoyed listening to some of the same artists. We both valued quality time spent together. Cuddling up on the couch together watching a movie was always great. The way she touched me and the way we held each other was perfect. I would always open the door for her or pull her chair out at dinner which I always got complimented for. She always wrote me notes telling me how special I am to her and vise versa. Our date nights were always fun. Most of our times together we're magical. We lived in the moment and enjoyed the times we shared. Our sex life was just perfect and we shared a lot of passion. We both made a lot of sacrifices to better our bonding with each other.

 

The signs of her Anxiety slowly over time became more evident. When it peaked you could tell. She was always scratching the back of her head, constantly needing her phone in her hand, we we had an argument she went from lovely to complete rage sometimes. For instance, we went to a concert one night and it got rained out during the show. As we got to the car I was trying to change the kids clothes and she was being real needy as I was just trying to hurry up and I guess I snapped back at her. This started a argument on the way home. Maybe some alcohol played a part as well. That lead to her tossing the house key out the window. I was trying to control myself with 2 kids in the car. Not doing the best that I could have to diffuse the situation I was mad myself. That was when we got home I told her exactly what was on my mind. That's when she slightly hit me. She freaked out and drove back to her hometown. She wouldn't answer my calls and was posting pictures out with her friends on snapchat. She ended up driving home at 2am and when she got here we just said how sorry we were and dropped everything and reconciled quickly.

 

Another example was we were going to get dinner one night and while getting ready we started disagreeing on something I can't exactly remember and I slammed the dresser drawer out of frustration. We argued the whole way to the restaurant and by the time we got there we both were yelling and she was crying like crazy so I turned the car around to return home. She lost it begging to just stop and go back as planned. We pulled in the parking lot, composed ourselves and both greatly apologized and ended up having a fantastic night.

 

See our problems or fights we're so very few, but when they happened she took them to a while different level. What could have been a simple disagreement turned into war. Or I didn't love her, or I didn't want to be with her as most couples would understand an argument or disagreement didn't have to mean we didn't love or appreciate the other person.

 

I remember so vividly the day she returned from work one night the week that she had been panicking. She walked in the door and I remember her looking at me making dinner in the kitchen and her saying I'm looking at her like she has a disease. It killed me. Here I am at this moment confused, scared, emotionally tired, but I still wanted to just hold her. Tell her everything would be ok. It was getting to the point where she wasn't appreciating me and I told her somebody else would appreciate all that I do. See when she was calm and relaxed I was her man. I was that person she dearly loved. I was that one guy that made her feel special. Then when I made a mistake I lost her faith. That comment downtown said "always the victim" I see that. I saw it and I lived it.

 

After she left she said that I wasn't the man she thought I was, and she feels like she doesn't even know who I am. I never changed once from the lovable figure. I never stopped opening her door, writing her hidden notes, basically I never changed. All I did was stand up for myself when I felt I needed to. Tough love does not mix well with Anxiety. Hey I'm not saying I was perfect. I can be moody at times, I'm sure I had my moments when I was a jerk. I'm not perfect but I'm wise enough to learn from my mistakes. I still believe relationships take work and they always need to be adapted. Each person is different, not that it's a bad thing but for something to last it takes both partners to give and take. The way she loved was real, but when Anxiety struck it always felt like a bigger hill to climb even though we were on flat land. I always had to take care of my son and work and all my responsibilities and she would comment "see you life just goes on without me" what she didn't understand was my responsibilities continued but my life just isn't the same. If she only knew the truth.

 

I tried taking advice and went out with another woman. For a couple hours I feel good but I just slip back into this place. Sex is just sex and its 30 minutes of escaping reality only to find myself back here. There's a beautiful woman lying in my bed and all I can do is think about my ex. Life is just hard.

[Noideanow]

With assumptions i only meant what larglagg wrote about agedifference, just so:)

[Lilbigman]

I understood. I don't think the age was a big deal. The problem was like downtown says. Sometimes dealing with her and her mind is like dealing with a child

[VeveCakes]

Being 23 is definitely a factor whether you want to believe it or not. She may be mature in some sense...but the way she is handling this shows her true age hands down.

[Lilbigman]

Yes quite possibly, but when you see her 45 year old mother doing this actions makes the age thing go to the back. These actions her mother displayed are what she teaches her daughter. It's hard to understand or believe that they both act like little kids. Watching her mom completely break down over hanging curtains or hearing her mother insecurities about her body when she isn't even overweight and seeing all these things she puts into her daughters mind. Like I said age sure can have something but this is a lot more than age. Mental stability is very alarming more than age.

 

All I know is this sucks!