Why can some women not forget the past?

[Blanco]

I'm not the most mature person, but I try to keep arguments/disagreements about the subject at hand. I try to avoid using "always/never" type phrases. And I try to avoid dredging up old items unless it's directly related to what's being discussed. To me, those are things each person should strive to do because otherwise, things get toxic quickly.

 

There were few things as frustrating as being unable to resolve an issue or disagreement because inevitably, it seemed like my partner couldn't help but bring up old matters that weren't really related to the current problem, but were still potent enough to help her "win." It was a reminder that A) My voice wasn't really being heard/respected, and B) No good I did was ever going to be enough to finally put to rest those old matters and that we were often just one disagreement away from those things being thrown in my face.

[Sunkissedpatio]

@Frozensushi it always amazes me how guys can be arch rivals in the office and as soon as that clock strikes 6 o'clock they are off to the bar to have a drink and shoot the breeze.

 

Women simply cannot do that. If we dislike someone or have problems with them we are NOT going for drinks with them to socialize (by choice) after work.

 

Again, I think it boils down to sensitivity and to the depth of relationships that women have with other women vs how men befriend other men.

 

A conversation between two guy friends at dinner looks very different than that of two female friends. Women tend to delved emotionally much deeper in relating with other women and so the fallout is a lot harder.

 

I think that's why in romantic relationships these dynamics get played out very differently than what we're used to in comparison to how we relate with our same gendered friends.

 

And this may or may not be a generalization but women tend to have more fallouts with friends throughout a lifetime where as guys kind of drift apart.

 

@blanco what you described is fighting dirty and that is not necessarily relating to the fact we remember more, it's habitual. Super wrong, and creates a cesspool of never-ending unresolved strife that just sits beneath the surface, again eroding trust, attraction and love.

[Sunkissedpatio]

 

I think we forget more than we remember, but, the difference is, we don't throw the old stuff in with the new (usually) when we are in the midst of a disagreement about something else. At least I try not to.

 

I can honestly say the times I have done this (I try not do this for most part) it's been instances where something was so hurtful it left a mark (figuratively) and something else that is happening now either triggers those past negative emotions or is so similar that it's inevitable not to make the connection.

[dreamingoftigers]

This is so true as to what happens. I chased a girl back that I had dumped. She text me after I broke up with her but all I could see was the negative.

Eventually after dumping someone u see the positive and for me it niggles at me until I knew I wanted to work it out.

I think with women though, when they are out they are out. Maybe a year down th line and you're both brand new people. But once her mind is made up, if she's got some intelligence and isn't needy or clingy, then it's done

 

Yeah I've noticed that about men vs. Women.

 

Men think "we can break up and then get back together later if it isn't so stressful."

 

Women think " how can I trust him not to ditch me when things are tough and I need him the most. He isn't worth going through all of that pain again."

[dreamingoftigers]

I'm not the most mature person, but I try to keep arguments/disagreements about the subject at hand. I try to avoid using "always/never" type phrases. And I try to avoid dredging up old items unless it's directly related to what's being discussed. To me, those are things each person should strive to do because otherwise, things get toxic quickly.

 

There were few things as frustrating as being unable to resolve an issue or disagreement because inevitably, it seemed like my partner couldn't help but bring up old matters that weren't really related to the current problem, but were still potent enough to help her "win." It was a reminder that A) My voice wasn't really being heard/respected, and B) No good I did was ever going to be enough to finally put to rest those old matters and that we were often just one disagreement away from those things being thrown in my face.

 

My experience has been that many men won't actually address the actual issue that I am having.

 

If I day I am bothered about being nagged or annoyed by his rude behaviour, often a guy will get defensive, or even blow up and then try to just rug-sweep it.

 

 

This was REALLY prevalent after my husband's adultery.

 

I just "wouldn't let it go." But the truth is, he simply wouldn't resolve it or discuss if with me because for him it was a closed matter. He didn't want to hear about my pain or angst. He just wanted to throw out a bunch of empty promises or suck-up points until I "got over it."

 

It became an EIGHT YEAR argument until I got THE TRUTH. FINALLY.

 

Now most women throw in the towel LONG BEFORE that, deciding "well he just won't ever give me the truth or behave reasonably about it."

 

I'm patient and determined at the same time.

 

As soon as he told me the actual truth I was mad and aad for a week now I don't care and have largely moved past it. Of course. Now he's actually concerned about my grief and pain. About eight years too late.

 

I just find most men can't face when they are causing their mates pain very well.

 

I mean, my husband tried the "lets forget about it, move past it, don't worry about it, regularly buy you flowers" route interspersed with accusations of being "unforgiving, bitter, grudge-holding and crazy."

 

I wasn't unforgiving. He just wasn't forthcoming at all, so I was supposed to hand over a "blank forgiveness cheque" to someone who has been dishonest, untrustworthy and refused to listen to my feelings on the subject. Get real, right?

 

So "adultery + avoidance + flowers = relationship reset to happiness" ?????

 

That's like "2+2= potato"

 

I know my example may seem extreme, but the minimizing of a woman's emotions tends to be the BIGGEST issue in deciding breakups.

 

I mean this, she says "you embarrassed me in front of my friends."

 

He says "no way, your friends loved me!" OR "Oh really, I thought I was being funny (or whatever)"

 

Look at the above example. It's subtle, but a lot of guys miss it. The real issue is that SHE FELT EMBARRASSED.

 

Discuss that! Discuss how you truly didn't want to embarrass her, that she means the world to you and is there anything that can make up for that. Not "you're being ridiculous about this and here's seventeen reasons why! We've talked about this for HALF AN HOUR! "

 

THE REAL ISSUE is whether or not she can trust you with HOW SHE FEELS.

 

So if buddy embarrassed her in front of her friends (rightly or wrongly), just showing up with flowers or "letting things cool off" does NOTHING to help her resolve those feelings of embarrassment and doubt.

 

Embarrassed me in front of friends + get defensive about it + bring me flowers = I still can't trust him to not embarrass me in front of my friends and now I feel guilty for accepting those flowers. I don't want to be B****, but I don't think he gets it at all.

[dreamingoftigers]

I'm not the most mature person, but I try to keep arguments/disagreements about the subject at hand. I try to avoid using "always/never" type phrases. And I try to avoid dredging up old items unless it's directly related to what's being discussed. To me, those are things each person should strive to do because otherwise, things get toxic quickly.

 

There were few things as frustrating as being unable to resolve an issue or disagreement because inevitably, it seemed like my partner couldn't help but bring up old matters that weren't really related to the current problem, but were still potent enough to help her "win." It was a reminder that A) My voice wasn't really being heard/respected, and B) No good I did was ever going to be enough to finally put to rest those old matters and that we were often just one disagreement away from those things being thrown in my face.

 

I find "the old" tends not to be "old" as much as an extension of the unresolved. It becomes a narrative.

 

Such as with the infidelity argument posted above.

 

I lived with it EVERYDAY. And every time I would bring it up, there would be a new reason to dismiss it.

 

Now, I had other things to do with my life: take care of my daughter, go to work, spend time with family etc etc etc. So in his mind I would just "let it go" eventually when he had not truly heard me fully ONCE. Not once. There was defensiveness, dismissive behaviour etc. Even a year into marital counseling there was avoidance.

 

So what comes up in MC now? Eight year old stuff that he absolutely piled everything on. And he has no one else to blame for that. I gave many options, times and different methods to try and resolve it. It wasn't until he invested in fully listening to my experience, instead of trying to minimize and pretend, that we got anywhere meaningful.

 

IMHO, most men are hard-headed and stubborn that way.

 

The book Hold Me Tight delves more I to the "old mixing with new" etc.

 

IME, with ANYONE, if they are repeating "old stuff" often,it means that it's UNRESOLVED for them. Often, even just acknowledgment and empathy is enough to break that cycle. Sometimes it needs to be acknowledged and enpathized with a few times to really set in.

 

Anyway, I've never had acknowledgement and empathy utterly fail regardless of how else a conflict goes.

[SpiralOut]

I think that we look for patterns. We are thinking about the long-term, asking ourselves "is this something I can deal with for the rest of my life." When a guy makes a serious mistake, we want to make sure that it really is just a one time thing. It's important to remember it, wait and watch to see if something similar happens again, and remember that too.

 

That's my theory, anyway. If we resolve an issue and it doesn't happen again (within let's say one year), I'll forget all about it. If similar problems keep happening, I create a category and lump the memories together in one spot so I can remember them all at once.

 

And since we are speaking in generalities, I'll point out that women need to worry about things that men don't. Women are more likely to become single-parents than men. Women are more likely to experience spousal abuse than men. So yeah, we'll watch you closely and remember it all and then leave if we don't like what we see. I think it's a survival instinct.

[Popbradley]

I remember my one ex got it into her head during the first year of the relationship that I didn't conduct myself well on special occasions. This was based mostly on one incident that was more of a misunderstanding than outright malfeasance. I saw her side of it, we talked it out, and I thought we moved on from it. Nope. We had another misunderstanding around a holiday a few weeks later. Again, not anything specific, but just a case of us being out of sync.

 

Nevertheless, it seemed like after that, she almost made it her mission to find something I did wrong on a special occasion so that she could reinforce this narrative that I simply had to "ruin" them. It didn't matter what I did right on that day. It could all be washed away with one perceived wrongdoing. By the end, that could entail something as small as not engaging her family enough for her liking (totally overlooking the fact that she was pretty lousy at engaging with my own family).

 

Just typing all of this out makes me glad I've gotten to spend the last day and a half eating and napping rather than walking around on eggshells while I wonder what it is that I do or don't do that will later be used against me.

 

Omg this... I had totally forgot about this but I could totally relate. She even told me I "ruin every outing we go to with my negative attitude." She actually screamed this in my face 3 days before she broke up with me and I had no clue what she was talking about. I tried talking it out and understanding WHY she felt this way but she just spoke in riddles... Like most women speaking to men and vice versa haha .

 

It was like every good thing I ever did or fun thing we had done together was trumped by the negative. The ratio could of been 10 good to 1 bad thing but it was like that one bad thing was worth 100 points and the each of the good things are worth 1 point lol.

 

I honestly think that's pretty unfair and I know this is only because men and women speak a totally different language. It's not anyone's fault, but everyone needs to realize this and maybe get couples counseling to get it across to one another instead of letting it built to a point of no return. I think a lot of good relationships could be saved this way.

[Popbradley]

Which explains why many men think the bunch of flowers, the new dress, the lovely dinner will make up for the misdemeanour or the hurtful words said in anger, or even that slap.

It is not A+B-A = B then B-B= O, it is still A+B+C+D = 4 and counting.

 

I think Slimtripper's long term theory is correct, it is in a woman's best interests to keep score.

NO point in forgetting that the guy is unreliable when under pressure, or he can have a volatile temper, if you are going to then expect him to be a good father to your children.

 

Realistically how is this fair? I am actually curious how In a woman's eyes this is fair. Guys forgive and forget but ladies keep a score going. Why is she aloud to and the man not? Trust me.. I had some horrific girlfriends but I constantly forgave them for bad stuff (cheating, verbal abuse, lying, etc) but I never do any of this but have an argument on we're to go to dinner that escalates and it's kept track of? That seems completely unfair to me but all of my girlfriends have done it.

 

My last left cause of words said in fights.. I never hit her or anything like that BUT she slapped the hell out of me in the middle of a fight. The next day I was laughing about the fact she had slapped me and made the comment "you slapped the hell out of me... Didn't know you could hit so hard... hahaha" yet after that she was upset at me for getting her so upset to the point she slapped me... Wth?

 

That fight even started because I was working and I needed some space because of stress. She didn't care and got upset at me for being moody. Got in my face and was yelling at me even though I said we both needed to cool down because this fight was about something stupid and I was sorry. I explained it was just stress but she kept it going until the fight escalated. In fact every girlfriend I have ever had escalated the fights to no return and yet THEY leave because the fights got so bad... That they escalated and started 50 percent of the time?

 

I don't.. Understand... Hahaha

 

In fact the girl that left me because of the arguments in the end even said "idk why I fight with you... It's like I realize I am making it worse but I would rather fight with you then not talk and cool down" so she in a sense left me Because of something I did that she made worse because she wanted to fight? Women = confusion lol. No affect ladies. I love ya

[Popbradley]

I think the answer might be as simple as we are just much more sensitive than men are.

 

The thing with me though is I am an extremely sensitive man. I liked watching the chick flicks with my lady and if we ever had problems I always sat down with her and turned everything off to try and talk them out. I offered to go to therapy and couples counseling several times because of the communication issues. She wanted nothing to do with it and literally hated trying to talk through problems...

 

Don't women want you to talk about problems together and men want to straight up ignore them? I have always been a talker and if I have a problem I want to work it out in a mature way... Yet I feel like I got the one girl who did NOT want to talk it out. :/

[Sunkissedpatio]

.

 

I just find most men can't face when they are causing their mates pain very well.

 

I mean, my husband tried the "lets forget about it, move past it, don't worry about it, regularly buy you flowers" route interspersed with accusations of being "unforgiving, bitter, grudge-holding and crazy."

 

I wasn't unforgiving. He just wasn't forthcoming at all, so I was supposed to hand over a "blank forgiveness cheque" to someone who has been dishonest, untrustworthy and refused to listen to my feelings on the subject. Get real, right?

 

So "adultery + avoidance + flowers = relationship reset to happiness" ?????

 

That's like "2+2= potato"

 

I know my example may seem extreme, but the minimizing of a woman's emotions tends to be the BIGGEST issue in deciding breakups.

 

I mean this, she says "you embarrassed me in front of my friends."

 

He says "no way, your friends loved me!" OR "Oh really, I thought I was being funny (or whatever)"

 

Look at the above example. It's subtle, but a lot of guys miss it. The real issue is that SHE FELT EMBARRASSED.

 

Discuss that! Discuss how you truly didn't want to embarrass her, that she means the world to you and is there anything that can make up for that. Not "you're being ridiculous about this and here's seventeen reasons why! We've talked about this for HALF AN HOUR! "

 

THE REAL ISSUE is whether or not she can trust you with HOW SHE FEELS.

 

So if buddy embarrassed her in front of her friends (rightly or wrongly), just showing up with flowers or "letting things cool off" does NOTHING to help her resolve those feelings of embarrassment and doubt.

 

Embarrassed me in front of friends + get defensive about it + bring me flowers = I still can't trust him to not embarrass me in front of my friends and now I feel guilty for accepting those flowers. I don't want to be B****, but I don't think he gets it at all.

 

Dreaming this was so spot on!

 

Men do tend to trivialize our feelings in a situation where they feel cornered by an "accusation" of something we perceived they did, and they perceived they didn't do.

 

It's usually a matter of hearing us out, acknowledging our feelings and explaining what was behind their actions that will get us to a place of feeling at peace with the resolution and settled enough to really burry the hatchet and not let it creep up again.

 

But like you say, if they get their backs up, look for a 1000000 and 1 justifications to negate what we are saying and demean what we are feeling and it ends in conflict resolving from exhaustion due to fighting the same point over and over to no avail. but no real understanding or acknowledgment of feelings, those are the types of things that stay with us for a very long time and go directly on the proverbial slate.

 

This is why not doing the things that cause the deep harm in the first place is far more important than "can't you just learn to forgive and forget?"

 

I mean we are going to make mistakes. We are going to disappoint our partners and hurt them at times on purpose other times totally inadvertently but when you start to repeat patterns there is no excuse to feel surprised when we don't and can't let things go.

[Popbradley]

Oh also... My ex said nasty stuff too but I never let it hurt me and I am telling you ladies... I bet you can think back to a time when you have said some nasty nasty stuff to your partner in anger you did not mean.

 

My ex literally was pulling away 2 months before the wedding and I told her we couldn't cancel the wedding AGAIN because family and friends have spent thousands already and I was hurt she wanted to post pone it again. Her response "**** your family! It's not of their god damn business!" That is a HORRIBLE thing to say and yet... I totally forgave her the next day and she never apoligized for saying it. Seems rather unfair to me.

[Woggle]

Oh also... My ex said nasty stuff too but I never let it hurt me and I am telling you ladies... I bet you can think back to a time when you have said some nasty nasty stuff to your partner in anger you did not mean.

 

My ex literally was pulling away 2 months before the wedding and I told her we couldn't cancel the wedding AGAIN because family and friends have spent thousands already and I was hurt she wanted to post pone it again. Her response "**** your family! It's not of their god damn business!" That is a HORRIBLE thing to say and yet... I totally forgave her the next day and she never apoligized for saying it. Seems rather unfair to me.

 

Be thankful you are no longer with her. When us men stop putting up with crap just so we can say we have a hot girlfriend we will have better relationships. You should have pulled the plug on the relationship right there.

[Popbradley]

Warning: Generalisations follow

 

1) Men seem to be very good at forgetting fights and disagreements, it may have been ugly and nasty at the time, but it is soon forgotten and it is a clean slate again.

 

2) Men tend to be good at dominating women and winning the argument, so he goes away thinking everything is great now, as they talked and she agreed with him..

 

3) Men are good at minimising women's concerns.

 

1) Women, after a fight/argument/misdemeanour don't tend to forget, it is not a clean slate it has mark on it. Next issue adds another mark and on and on. Nothing is forgotten, until one day she sees a slate with loads of dirty marks on it and she then decides to end it. He is blind-sided, he had no idea, to his mind all that stuff she now brings up as reasons for the split, he thought were all forgotten and done and dusted.

 

2) Women often end up after arguments feeling less than happy. They tend to want to keep the peace and capitulate rather than agreeing totally with the "agreed" result of the making up talk.

He wins the argument, but rather than confront the issue head on, she tells herself that it is OK, but resentment builds. Women tend to be good at storing up resentment.

Again he is blind-sided he thought they were on the same page, but she only agreed as that is what he wanted.

 

3) Women want the fairy tale. Perceived misdemeanours hence take on huge significance and are rarely forgotten. "Love" may mean some women will put up with a lot, but tolerance is not a bottomless pit and again she will be keeping score.

 

Of course not all women and men are like this, but enough are IME.

 

Honestly you just made me realize something and I'm amazed I near saw it.. What you said in number 2. She always told me she felt that I won every argument even though I felt she did but they would end with us trying to discuss them and her just dropping the sitter saying she forgave me but in reality never did...

 

I think in reality she just let me "dominate" and say she forgave me but I guess in reality I always assumed we were good when in reality we were not. Funny how I never even thought of that but it's true.

 

I guess men are just straight forward creatures while women are more all over the place. Tell me a man yes or no and he hears yes or no and he thinks it's good. Women hear yes and no but have a million other concerns with either answer lol.

 

What a man hears and thinks

 

Man: , do you forgive me for being a jerk? I have been stressed and took it out on you and I'm sorry"

 

Woman: "yes. I'm sorry too"

 

Man thinking : "good. Glad she forgave me. Now let's go watch some football!"

 

What a woman hears and thinks

 

Man: , do you forgive me for being a jerk? I have been stressed and took it out on you and I'm sorry"

 

Woman: "yes. I'm sorry too

 

Woman thinking:" I forgive him but does he really mean what he said? He did the same thing 2 months ago and we had the same disagreement then. He promised he wouldn't do it again and yet we had this fight before. In fact we had a similar fight 2 years ago at my mothers birthday at 6.42 pm... I love him but is this ever gonna get better? I just don't think he is really trying.. I'll keep watching him though and see if he slips up again but until then I forgive him."

 

Of course that's a complete exaggeration but kinda accurate no? haha

[Popbradley]

I think your assuming. Since your the dumpee you only see the good. As a defense mechanism she only see's the bad.

 

It's simply your reference point is not on point. There are a lot of women who are treated bad by their boyfriend or husband that stay in the relationship just as much women treat men bad. It's simply relative.

 

 

Honestly I even assumed this but asked "what did I do wrong? Was I a bad boyfriend? Can you at least help me understand so I can learn something from all of this for my next relationship?"

 

Her response "idk. It's not all black and white. I was unhappy with a lot of things yet was really happy with other things. Hennessy I think about you now I only think of the good. I don't even think of the bad."

 

I don't believe her for a second as I know you don't just fall out of love unless they have a third party or the scoreboard they keep is filled up with negatives. She seems like a totally different person now and treats me like I'm some person she has only known as an acquaintance. She's friendly and nice treats me like a friend she used to know at some point... After a 7 year relationship... It's got to be a defensive mechanism.

 

Saying all that... If ladies are hurt like that can you even EVER let go of that or see in time the positive changes in another person or does that slate just NEVER come clean? If a man drops out of your life for a while and he comes back brand new and is honestly new and learned a lot... Will you ladies ONLY see him as the fool who messed up years ago and hurt you or would all the positive changes ever take notice with you?

 

Just curious what your feedback is. I know if a women comes back and seems more mature and genuine a man would forgive and see the new her instead of the old her.

[Sunkissedpatio]

This thread is so great and enlightening. Reading some great stuff here. Thanks Popbradley for posing this topic!!

 

Your ex does not sound like a typical woman in the respect that we do tend to want to communicate and talk about feelings. It all depends what her upbringing was like and since you said you have strong sensitive traits perhaps she has more masculine traits, hence the attraction between you two?

 

Again, I am reading a lot of what guys discuss here regarding their ex's and every single case describes a woman that could easily fit one of those many BDP lists that are circulating around here posted by several people. Could it be that every single guy has a BDP ex girlfriend?

 

 

What I am seeing in all the posts shared in this thread is a lot of the same dynamics that happened in my fights with my ex played out here in other relationships almost to a T in some cases. Could it be that universally we all fight and have very similar fights about the same discrepancies and sensitivities divided by gender but contextually different?

 

And it isn't so much about how we perceive our partner's actions or how we feel hurt by things but more about how we act in those moments that predict the varying outcomes from relationship to relationship.

 

It's pretty obvious that what every relationship has in common, or most people have in common is that once we are in love we tend to put up with more than we typically would and once hurtful patterns start we hope that they will go away so that we can just enjoy that love that we feel.

[Blanco]

I guess it should be noted that in the relationship I've been talking about, I was definitely the more sensitive one, whereas she was more emotionally closed off. I was usually up for discussing conflicts, but it unfortunately followed a pattern where we would either talk in circles or she would convince me that somehow I was the problem, and if she had done something wrong, it was generally justified because I had done X Y or Z. quite frustrating, especially since I by most accounts was doing something commendable (helping raise her young children), and yet, it felt after a while that I couldn't even be thrown a bone and not have something be actually not my fault.

[Popbradley]

This thread is so great and enlightening. Reading some great stuff here. Thanks Popbradley for posing this topic!!

 

Your ex does not sound like a typical woman in the respect that we do tend to want to communicate and talk about feelings. It all depends what her upbringing was like and since you said you have strong sensitive traits perhaps she has more masculine traits, hence the attraction between you two?

 

Again, I am reading a lot of what guys discuss here regarding their ex's and every single case describes a woman that could easily fit one of those many BDP lists that are circulating around here posted by several people. Could it be that every single guy has a BDP ex girlfriend?

 

 

What I am seeing in all the posts shared in this thread is a lot of the same dynamics that happened in my fights with my ex played out here in other relationships almost to a T in some cases. Could it be that universally we all fight and have very similar fights about the same discrepancies and sensitivities divided by gender but contextually different?

 

And it isn't so much about how we perceive our partner's actions or how we feel hurt by things but more about how we act in those moments that predict the varying outcomes from relationship to relationship.

 

It's pretty obvious that what every relationship has in common, or most people have in common is that once we are in love we tend to put up with more than we typically would and once hurtful patterns start we hope that they will go away so that we can just enjoy that love that we feel.

 

I honestly didn't even expect to get this kind of response haha. I expected maybe one or 2 answers but came back later and it already had 3 pages of good information . Very cool.

 

 

She wasn't very masculine and I for sure was but I think I am more on the sensitive side because I never had a father and was raised by my mother. She's a tough woman yet always tought me how to be sensitive with a woman. We have actually discussed several communication skills growing up and I always thought I had all the answers going into a relationship because I was more sensitive and in touch with my feelings compared to most men. Guess I was wrong haha.

 

Idk about her but I do know she was always closed off and has always said she has had a HARD time discussing her feelings as her head was always "clouded". Never understood what that meant and will probably never understand why she couldn't discuss problems.

 

I do think how we react for sure defines each relationships outcome. I fully understand why couples counseling is actually a very valid thing after the end of this relationship. If my next partner wants to go I am going into it with the urge to understand how she communicates. Heck I'd even do it now if my ex wanted to try it out.

 

I fully believe all relationships have problems and most of the time they are exactly the same. Men just need to understand how women feel and comunicate and vice versa. I don't think women are wrong in how they feel or respond to stuff and I don't believe men are either. We just communicate and feel differently about various things. One thing may hurt me my ex or any other woman would not understand and one thing may hurt you but a man would never understand why.

 

I think that's why after each failed relationship you learn more and more what caused it and increase your communication skills thus resulting in the next relationship being even better for both parties.

[Sweetfish]

It's sooo funny I'm reading this and the women are highfiving each other and feel at easy with this way of thinking or scorecard system. Many women do not even communicate if a man has done something wrong as said here... aquire patterns and see if "We see things as long term"

 

Example.. women comes in from work and complains about X at work. This happens over a week or 2.

 

It is typical men logic to see the situation at hand and give advise. This is the women you love. So you offer advise to why X is a problem or how to resolve.

 

The realism of the situation is women do not want you to give them advise... but just for you to listen. As a man your not to respond.. you are suppose to nod your head and simply listen.

 

This is a form of failure to communicate.

 

Another form of lack of communication is when a women does something for a man and she hates it but does it for "love" until there is a fight she unloads and tells you she only does it for you and she hates doing it.

 

This is another failure of communication. This is the slow build of a toxic relationship that some men have no clue is growing beneath.

 

It's understandable if a guy makes a mistake and doesn't realize his mistake and tries to apologize. But to falsely apologize is on you. That is unhealthy because women do not like to be told there past mistakes so it's a catch 22. They can hold score and you cant.

 

It seems that a man can do so much for a women and all those things go to zero value because your feelings are at stake. Women can have no respect for a man feelings because its only them that matters...

 

With this scorecard system there isn't a relationship...

 

It is about you.

It's about getting what you want.

 

If a women love is a continuing devalued stock as time progresses...that is a relationship i do not want.

 

It seems... like another poster said, women get away with alot and when she gets away with alot, boundaries can slowly widen or she knows she can cross over and jump back with the act of some water works.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Sweetfish

[Frozensushi]

Again, I am reading a lot of what guys discuss here regarding their ex's and every single case describes a woman that could easily fit one of those many BDP lists that are circulating around here posted by several people. Could it be that every single guy has a BDP ex girlfriend?

***Off Topic***

 

Sunkissedpatio, I think you are a lovely, sensitive woman who has lived and learned. I have read many of your posts and appreciate everything you give. All your words seem carefully thought out and when there is 'tough' love to be given, you administer your wisdom in the most loving and thoughtful way imaginable.

 

I also understand why you antagonize the BPD issue. It's fair. It's an easy excuse. You and elaine567 both gave me a dish of your tough love in my "break up" thread. I took what both of you had to say to heart. I honestly did. Your advice, though well-meaning, established my Ex's narrative as the prominent opinion as to the demise of our relationship. You both were amazing, thoughtful, harsh yet fair. You did lay much of the burden at my feet, which at first I embraced, but later found was not valid.

 

I've had 4 long-term relationships in my life. I am a caring, loving, and understanding man. All those Exes have since made contact, missing my compassion, my love, my attentiveness and my listening skills. I am not one to just jump on the, "Oh, she's crazy" bandwagon. You have no idea the emotional damage someone with BPD can do. (It's not even their fault!)

 

Sure, Downtown will jump at the chance to give guidance at the drop of the hat. Have you wondered why he spends so much time trying to educate potential BPD victims with long, drawn out posts? It's because some woman damaged him for life!! He got help and made it a mission to educate those of us who went through the same thing. You should feel lucky you never had to go through what he/I/us did. Hell, I'm lucky I only had to go through it for a year and change.

 

I understand, every time you see "Oh she's got BPD", it strikes a nerve. I get it and appreciate your loathing of it, haha. All I want you to know is that it's an emotional mind F***! Please, give those "several people" you mentioned a break. Half the time they are wrong, but they're just trying to weed out the victims like myself to help and educate those other poor confused bastards.

 

Anyway, much love Sunkissedpatio ... sorry, back on topic.

[Sunkissedpatio]

Every single point you just listed Sweetfish, without exaggeration I can easily attach to my ex an things he did that are direct and examples of what you just said. This also includes some of the things the other guys have cited here as examples of what their ex's did, I can easily attach to my ex (who is a man).

 

So where does that leave your theory then that women just like to push boundaries and sappy guys who don't enforce them are the ones that create these patterns?

 

Look, this notion that women don't want advice is some cockamamie notion that was started up in some self-help manual in the 90's and it is still propagated 20 years later.

 

Do you like it when someone listens to what you have to say? When someone pays attention to what you are saying and especially if you are feeling emotional about something, who doesn't dismiss your feelings with underhanded comments? We like it too. It's that simple.

 

Personally, if I am going to bring home a problem or situation about my day I most definitely want to hear advice from my partner. We had many many discussions where he would give me awesome advice on many issues I would bring home; problems, dreams or life fantasies, family issues whatever and he would offer his advice and it was welcomed. Just so happens he was a great listener too. But there is offering advice and harsh criticism. We don't appreciate that, I don't think most people do.

 

My bone of contention is when we had a disagreement. All that great listening went out the window. It became a power struggle to get the next word out, and to argue a point and to dismiss any feelings that may be happening in the moment and at that very moment the floodgates would open and ghosts of pain past, would come orbiting back.

 

Sometimes it took a lot of circuitous arguing to get to a point where he could actually hear what I was expressing and see what was painful in his actions and reflect and see the pain he had caused (purposely or inadvertently). Where that could have easily been avoided if he were a better listener as opposed to being so defensive and reactive.

 

We don't expect our guys to never mess up or do some numb-nutty things...you will and you do. But we do expect you to understand why those numb-nutty things hurt us or preyed on our sensitivities.

 

We're not sitting here "high-fiving" each other because look "boobs and slates and tally boards" that's what we are...oh well."

 

The fact that those past pains can so easily creep up on is not a premeditative act, it is intrinsic to our make-up as women. Acting out on that and rehashing and reintroducing those memories over and over is something that is premeditative and that we can control.

[dreamingoftigers]

Omg this... I had totally forgot about this but I could totally relate. She even told me I "ruin every outing we go to with my negative attitude." She actually screamed this in my face 3 days before she broke up with me and I had no clue what she was talking about. I tried talking it out and understanding WHY she felt this way but she just spoke in riddles... Like most women speaking to men and vice versa haha .

 

It was like every good thing I ever did or fun thing we had done together was trumped by the negative. The ratio could of been 10 good to 1 bad thing but it was like that one bad thing was worth 100 points and the each of the good things are worth 1 point lol.

 

I honestly think that's pretty unfair and I know this is only because men and women speak a totally different language. It's not anyone's fault, but everyone needs to realize this and maybe get couples counseling to get it across to one another instead of letting it built to a point of no return. I think a lot of good relationships could be saved this way.

 

Relationships need a minimum 5 to 1 (positive interaction to negative interaction) ratio to continue. That's why many people put up with abuse, because the abuser is good 80-90% of the time and so our brains trick us into overlooking things. When that ratio drops, it typically knocks out the relationship, and often quite quickly too.

[dreamingoftigers]

Realistically how is this fair? I am actually curious how In a woman's eyes this is fair. Guys forgive and forget but ladies keep a score going. Why is she aloud to and the man not? Trust me.. I had some horrific girlfriends but I constantly forgave them for bad stuff (cheating, verbal abuse, lying, etc) but I never do any of this but have an argument on we're to go to dinner that escalates and it's kept track of? That seems completely unfair to me but all of my girlfriends have done it.

 

My last left cause of words said in fights.. I never hit her or anything like that BUT she slapped the hell out of me in the middle of a fight. The next day I was laughing about the fact she had slapped me and made the comment "you slapped the hell out of me... Didn't know you could hit so hard... hahaha" yet after that she was upset at me for getting her so upset to the point she slapped me... Wth?

 

That fight even started because I was working and I needed some space because of stress. She didn't care and got upset at me for being moody. Got in my face and was yelling at me even though I said we both needed to cool down because this fight was about something stupid and I was sorry. I explained it was just stress but she kept it going until the fight escalated. In fact every girlfriend I have ever had escalated the fights to no return and yet THEY leave because the fights got so bad... That they escalated and started 50 percent of the time?

 

I don't.. Understand... Hahaha

 

In fact the girl that left me because of the arguments in the end even said "idk why I fight with you... It's like I realize I am making it worse but I would rather fight with you then not talk and cool down" so she in a sense left me Because of something I did that she made worse because she wanted to fight? Women = confusion lol. No affect ladies. I love ya

 

Oh also... My ex said nasty stuff too but I never let it hurt me and I am telling you ladies... I bet you can think back to a time when you have said some nasty nasty stuff to your partner in anger you did not mean.

 

My ex literally was pulling away 2 months before the wedding and I told her we couldn't cancel the wedding AGAIN because family and friends have spent thousands already and I was hurt she wanted to post pone it again. Her response "**** your family! It's not of their god damn business!" That is a HORRIBLE thing to say and yet... I totally forgave her the next day and she never apoligized for saying it. Seems rather unfair to me.

 

She sounds very abusive.

 

My husband put me through Hell with his cheating and his Addictions relapses and not once did I ever "slap the Hell out of him." I can't imagine doing that to someone I claim to love.

 

I did, however, curb stomp one of his phones after finding out what he was using it for.

 

Why did she want to postpone the wedding?

 

And I notice your rebuttal to that was "but, my family...."

 

Do you see the minimization there?

[dreamingoftigers]

Honestly you just made me realize something and I'm amazed I near saw it.. What you said in number 2. She always told me she felt that I won every argument even though I felt she did but they would end with us trying to discuss them and her just dropping the sitter saying she forgave me but in reality never did...

 

I think in reality she just let me "dominate" and say she forgave me but I guess in reality I always assumed we were good when in reality we were not. Funny how I never even thought of that but it's true.

 

I guess men are just straight forward creatures while women are more all over the place. Tell me a man yes or no and he hears yes or no and he thinks it's good. Women hear yes and no but have a million other concerns with either answer lol.

 

What a man hears and thinks

 

Man: , do you forgive me for being a jerk? I have been stressed and took it out on you and I'm sorry"

 

Woman: "yes. I'm sorry too"

 

Man thinking : "good. Glad she forgave me. Now let's go watch some football!"

 

What a woman hears and thinks

 

Man: , do you forgive me for being a jerk? I have been stressed and took it out on you and I'm sorry"

 

Woman: "yes. I'm sorry too

 

Woman thinking:" I forgive him but does he really mean what he said? He did the same thing 2 months ago and we had the same disagreement then. He promised he wouldn't do it again and yet we had this fight before. In fact we had a similar fight 2 years ago at my mothers birthday at 6.42 pm... I love him but is this ever gonna get better? I just don't think he is really trying.. I'll keep watching him though and see if he slips up again but until then I forgive him."

 

Of course that's a complete exaggeration but kinda accurate no? haha

 

That's about right.

 

I find myself a little different on the female-resent side of things.

 

I straight-up told my husband what my deal was, over and over.

 

Then I came to realize over time that a lot of what I was saying and telling him was like "noise" to him.

 

Even when I told him that I lived with it EVERY DAY, he just didn't get it.

 

I think because my feelings and words didn't match what he was seeing. He saw me getting up, taking care of the kids, going to work, even watching shows at nights with him (I HATE TV, but I watch it with him because he likes it.) We would still joke around etc. So, my pain and grief got dismissed.

 

It was when I pulled back after having had completely enough that a shift occurred. I dumped my son on him for a week and just demanded space and didn't want to watch shows or have anything to do with him. And it hit like bricks. But it was actually HARD to back away. It's not in my nature And just seems hurtful.

 

But telling him was doing squat.

 

So now if I have a major complaint, I will state it and pull back until he's willing to deal with it.

 

But I never let the issue "die." I never acted like I was okay with what happened. I just tried to love my life hoping one day he would give a crap about any of it. And it seemed like he didn't at all for a long time. The week where he had to get up with our son through the night hit home with how exhausted I am though. I've been up almost every night for seven months and have to work during the day too.

[Sunkissedpatio]

***Off Topic***

I understand, every time you see "Oh she's got BPD", it strikes a nerve. I get it and appreciate your loathing of it, haha. All I want you to know is that it's an emotional mind F***! Please, give those "several people" you mentioned a break. Half the time they are wrong, but they're just trying to weed out the victims like myself to help and educate those other poor confused bastards.

 

Anyway, much love Sunkissedpatio ... sorry, back on topic.

 

Wow what a lovely post Frozensushi! Those are really nice and kind things to say. Thank you! (I'm really blushing)

 

I'll never forget how I felt when I first came to this board and so many of the lovely people here helped me out so much Blanco, Dreamingoftigers, Elaine, Bummer, Buhddist, Bialy so many more and I learned so much in such a short period of time that it's been real journey being on this board and hearing other stories, processing, and sharing.

 

It's not that I have some personal vendetta against propagating BDP information (though it does get thrown around a lot here) It's more that I am an advocate for a balanced look at most situations. If there is something I have learned (from my professional training - I research and write for a living) is that often times in order to unravel stories we need to do a lot of analyzing, researching and asking in order to get a more comprehensive outlook on each situation. It's easier to determine patterns of the dynamics that are exclusive to those particulars if we follow that course as opposed to preemptively attaching a label to something.

 

I'm not coming from some ultra-feminist self-serving crusade, I just prefer to get more of a panoramic view on a situation in order to determine its outcome.

 

I have absolutely no doubt of the validity and importance of educating people on BDP, bi-polar, or NPD, ADD...you name it. I'm just an advocate for analysis and self-reflection. But I feel BDP is a term that is used rather frequently and at times even prematurely when it seems like there are other factors at play.

 

I'm happy to hear you felt welcomed by my contributions to your threads and by no means did I ever want to make anyone feel excluded from exploring or educating others on whatever mental illness they feel their partners were suffering nor can I begin to imagine what a traumatic experience it must be to be with someone who has who has been exposed to a BDP'ed person.