Should I get married or break up? Time is running out

[therevada]

I've been in an LDR for a few years now. I'm in NYC, she's in Italy.

 

Because of the huge distance involved, we only get to see each other about 3 times a year. It's very tough, but we've stayed in constant touch, travelled all over together, and love one another very much.

 

My girlfriend has been pushing for marriage for a long time, and each time we meet I know she will be upset if I don't propose. I keep delaying, thinking I just need one more meet up in order to decide. And then I delay again.

 

The reason for my delay is that a couple of years ago, she cheated on me and lied about it. And not only this, but she cheated on me right before coming to visit, on a flight that I paid for ($2000 - this took ages to save up for), with a total scumbag of a guy (he was married, way older, sleazy-sounding). She trickled out the truth over the next few months, as I figured out more and more of what had happened.

 

I was emotionally wrecked by it, but I put it down to naivety and selfishness on her part and tried to forgive.

 

Through the highs and lows, sometimes things between us are great. We are incredibly warm and loving with each other, and talk about the future all the time. We can't bear to be separated - when the time comes, it's agony. She says she's in a different place now, and wasn't sure if we were really serious back when it happened (apparently the $2000 flight wasn't clue enough...). We're certainly a lot more established now.

 

But deep down inside me, although I still love her, I feel my respect for her has been damaged and I never feel fully safe. This makes me act like a paranoid and insecure guy, who I hate sometimes. Inwardly I question her intelligence, causing confirmation bias whenever she says something dumb (which lately just seems like more and more). Occasionally we'll have an argument and I can't help but mention the past again, which I know is considered terrible behaviour in a relationship, but sometimes she massively triggers my anxiety by, for instance, talking about how exciting she thinks having sex half-dressed in a public toilet would be, or how she wants to go on an all-girls holiday to a beach resort. I end up getting so paranoid and angry that it all spills out. I feel I'm in danger of becoming the worst kind of insecure, controlling boyfriend, who dredges up the past. I really do love her but sometimes I fear, because of what happened, that she's just not mature and smart enough to mean what she says, and that if she gets drunk and horny one day when I'm not there, it might happen again.

 

I know our relationship can only be sustained if we get married and she moves over here, because it's just way too expensive and emotionally draining to continue like this, and I've delayed a lot already. She's losing her patience, and I'm worrying that I'm wasting her life away. I feel we're running out of time.

 

But I can't bring myself to propose yet. I feel undignified thinking of getting down on one knee for the girl who cheated on me, but at the same time I can't bear to break up, and feel I may forever regret that I was unable to forgive. She's sweet, she's beautiful, she loves me very much... and yet I'm so conflicted.

 

Whichever path I choose feels like I will be conflicted forever.

 

Anyone have any thoughts, consoling or otherwise? Thank you.

[enddeck]

Under no circumstances would I marry this woman.You obviously do not trust her and with good reason.If she is naive enough to bring up cheating in conversation after what she did then she will have no problem cheating again if the opportunity arises.

[therevada]

It's crazy, isn't it - she's so far away and yet I was able to figure out she had cheated, because she's so unguarded and naive. Consequently, I'm as certain as I could be that it was a one-off (not an affair, just a couple of days) and wasn't quite as full-on as you might imagine (but still a huge betrayal).

 

She didn't "bring up cheating in conversation" - I just connected the dots.

 

And yet she has behaved ever since in the most devoted and loving way, saying what a fool she was and how much she has matured since then. She's spent thousands on coming over to see me, repeatedly, even though she can barely afford it. She really wants to be together.

Edited November 26, 2016 by therevada

[Gr8fuln2020]

It's crazy, isn't it - she's so far away and yet I was able to figure out she had cheated, because she's so unguarded and naive. Consequently, I'm as certain as I could be that it was a one-off (not an affair, just a couple of days) and wasn't quite as full-on as you might imagine (but still a huge betrayal).

 

She didn't "bring up cheating in conversation" - I just connected the dots.

 

And yet she has behaved ever since in the most devoted and loving way, saying what a fool she was and how much she has matured since then. She's spent thousands on coming over to see me, repeatedly, even though she can barely afford it. She really wants to be together.

 

No offense, but no way I would marry her.

 

1. She cheated.

2. She lied.

3. She's a foreigner. (I'll explain)

4. You don't see each other enough to really know each other, frankly.

5. She's thousands of miles away and plenty of opps to have other indescretions w/o you know it.

 

As per #3. How did you meet? Where? There is almost no way that I would get involved in a LDR with a woman who is not on the same continent. Believe me, I would love to date an amazing Italian woman, I speak Italian and grew up there, but there are those who are more interested in obtaining citizenship then developing an authentic relationship. Just my take. Just wont' risk that.

 

I would be suspicious of her motives.

[LargoLagg]

If I read your story correctly, I'd advise against it. The cheating thing was pretty ****ty considering the timing, but honestly, what do you expect her to do? You're a million miles away, you've seen each other 3 times a year for at least a couple of years now. I'm surprised you haven't stepped out on her, or at least brought up the issue of dating while you're separated. So let's set the cheating aside for just a moment.

 

Were you aware that people grow and change over time? They do that even if they're together, and sometimes, that means that they grow apart, right next to each other. You guys are separated by two gulfs, time and distance. You've grown and changed in ways that the other really isn't aware of. Now is no time to decide on marriage. If you want to go down that road, one of you should move to where the other is and see each other for a while. See if you can still stand to be near each other every day. Just because it was great before doesn't mean it will be great now.

 

Back to the cheating. That's one of the ways she's changed. Pretty big change, wouldn't you say? She was fulfilling a need that you couldn't. Had this guy been a little different, you might not have this worry today. LD is hard on you in ways you haven't even figured out yet.

 

There's no way you should even consider it. Move first, or don't, and let her go before she finds one she likes and gives you the old heave-ho.

[therevada]

How did you meet? Where? There is almost no way that I would get involved in a LDR with a woman who is not on the same continent. Believe me, I would love to date an amazing Italian woman, I speak Italian and grew up there, but there are those who are more interested in obtaining citizenship then developing an authentic relationship. Just my take. Just wont' risk that.

 

I would be suspicious of her motives.

 

We met while I was on business in Italy for 6 months, so we spent plenty of time together at first.

 

Regarding her motives - I understand why you would say that. In fact we discussed this many times at first. However, she lives with her family in Italy (who I've stayed with numerous times) and actually asked me to move over there. Right now, though, she's hopping from job to job, while I'm established in a good career and own an apartment that's big enough for two, so I've encouraged her to consider coming over here. It was only further down the line that we both woke up to the reality that this meant marriage or we have to end it.

 

 

The cheating thing was pretty ****ty considering the timing, but honestly, what do you expect her to do? You're a million miles away

 

We were committed to one another, we agreed to be faithful, and at the time she was even talking about marriage. So I don't think that just because we were far apart it should be open season on making excuses for cheating.

Edited November 27, 2016 by therevada

[ExpatInItaly]

I cannot imagine why you feel she is wife material.

 

She isn't ready for that type of commitment; not by a long shot. You don't have a healthy enough relationship to consider marriage, and it won't make her stay faithful when her heart isn't with you. (And it's not, if she was able to cheat and lie about it)

 

I think it's time to end the relationship. You would be far better to invest in someone who is willing and enthusiastic to commit to you. She isn't.

[Gr8fuln2020]

@revada. This is NO BUENO, my friend. You are considering marrying a woman who has cheated (at least once as far as you know), cannot hold a job (why?) and lives thousands of miles away. Not good.

 

Are you much older? Same age? Do you speak Italian? HOW did you meet? When you visited her family, did they seem well-enough-off?

 

As far as her family being okay you move there, well, fine, but once you marry her she still becomes an American citizen, right? I don't like any of this. It's way too messy.

[oldshirt]

Why not date someone in your location that shares your same culture and background that you can spend actual physical time with and actually get to know for real instead of the image that someone on the other side of the world is portraying to you?

[Alamo657]

The amount of male submission to a woman "because she' s pretty" here is astonishing.

 

1) there is no relationship. seeing each others 3 times a year is not a relationship.

2) you find it expensive to maintain this distant relationship, which means you're paying to have sex with her 3 times a year. Think about it.

3) You say you are "wasting her life away". No YOU are wasting YOUR life away. Meanwhile she's banging other guys while you're desperately in love with the "idea" of her.

 

Be smart and drop this nonsense.

[oldshirt]

The amount of male submission to a woman "because she' s pretty" here is astonishing.

 

1) there is no relationship. seeing each others 3 times a year is not a relationship.

2) you find it expensive to maintain this distant relationship, which means you're paying to have sex with her 3 times a year. Think about it.

3) You say you are "wasting her life away". No YOU are wasting YOUR life away. Meanwhile she's banging other guys while you're desperately in love with the "idea" of her.

 

Be smart and drop this nonsense.

 

yeah this ^^^^^

 

The only reason you are trying to hold on to this chick is because you feel you aren't able to get one in real life in your own location. Bump up your game, get out and meet some girls that you have an actual ability to get to know in the real world.

 

As far as #2 up above, lets do the math - you've been chasing this windmill for 3 years and you see her approx 3 times a year and you stated it was approx $2k to visit her. Assuming she reached into her pocket book a couple times to see you, lets say that you have spent over $10,000 chasing what basically boils down to an electronic pen pal.

 

How many smoke'n hot working girls could you have been with legally in a legal Nevada brothel for 10 grand????

 

Prostitution aside, how many girls could you have taken out on dinner/movie dates for $10k?

 

For $10k you could have a gym membership and a private trainer to get some meat on your bones to catch women's eyes and you could completely update your wardrobe so you would be the sharpest dressed guy and you'd have plenty left over to update the décor in your apt and put a down payment on a decent car. All of those things would boost your market value on the dating market and you could date girls in your country of origin.

 

The real harm here is the time, energy and money you have spent on an electronic pen pal, you could have spent dating and developing relationships and having actual sex with flesh and blood women in real life.

[therevada]

You would be far better to invest in someone who is willing and enthusiastic to commit to you. She isn't.

 

The cheating incident was 2 years ago, at the start of our relationship. Since then she's barely talked about anything else than how much she wants to commit and how ashamed she feels about it. I am the one who is struggling to commit.

 

@revada. You are considering marrying a woman who... cannot hold a job (why?)

 

Are you much older? Same age? Do you speak Italian? HOW did you meet? When you visited her family, did they seem well-enough-off?

 

She can hold a job - she's just changed a few times recently, out of choice. Yes I speak fluent Italian, and she speaks fluent English. Her family are doing OK.

 

Why not date someone in your location that shares your same culture and background that you can spend actual physical time with and actually get to know for real instead of the image that someone on the other side of the world is portraying to you?

 

I appreciate the response but that's essentially just an anti-LDR statement. This is an LDR forum.

 

The only reason you are trying to hold on to this chick is because you feel you aren't able to get one in real life in your own location. Bump up your game, get out and meet some girls that you have an actual ability to get to know in the real world.

 

How many smoke'n hot working girls could you have been with legally in a legal Nevada brothel for 10 grand????

 

Look, I get your point, and I appreciate the no-BS pep talk, but you've completely removed emotion from the equation and are treating relationships like an emotionless cost-benefit analysis. Plus, the bit about prostitution is just gross. Believe it or not, our relationship is not all about sex.

Edited November 27, 2016 by therevada

[ExpatInItaly]

OP, if the cheating was 2 years ago, and you still find yourself struggling to trust and commit to her (rightly so, in my opinion) how do you expect making a lifetime commitment will work?

[Grapesofwrath]

When faced with the choice to break-up or make a lifelong commitment, I would always go with break-up. If those are the only choices you feel you have, then it's really no choice at all.

[therevada]

OP, if the cheating was 2 years ago, and you still find yourself struggling to trust and commit to her (rightly so, in my opinion) how do you expect making a lifetime commitment will work?

 

Very fair point, and the crux of my worry right now. Sometimes I blame myself for not being able to move on and forgive properly, given that she has done nothing to cause concern ever since. I often think I should have had the strength to end it straight away, 2 years ago, but I just couldn't.

 

For all the harsh but fair criticisms of me in this thread, nobody seems to be factoring in emotion.

 

When faced with the choice to break-up or make a lifelong commitment, I would always go with break-up. If those are the only choices you feel you have, then it's really no choice at all.

 

It's a horrible situation to be in. I was almost going to take the plunge and get married, just to stay positive and give us a fighting chance. "It's just a piece of paper, right? And it's the only way we can ever be together, which is what we've been holding on to for years"...

 

But now I feel closer than ever to finally ending things. It may sound ridiculous but right now I'm not sure I will ever fully get over it. The last few years have been so intense, all the long waits and countdowns to seeing each other, then all the horrific airport goodbyes, followed by months alone agonising over what happened in the past, knowing that when we're together I don't have these same worries... not sure whose gut to follow, the me when I'm with her, or the me when I'm alone

[Mrin]

didn't even read the body of the post...

 

Wise man say, he who asks this question already knows the answer

[Gr8fuln2020]

My goodness, the cheating was 2-yrs ago?! This changes my perspective some. Darn wish people wouldn't leave out VERY important information when asking for advice, etc.

 

Anyway, you have heavy misgivings. I am going to say that since this happened 2-yrs ago and you two still are no closer to having a proper, continuous relationship aside from getting married, I would still would not marry her. You have been unable to forgive the incident (if only the single once has occurred since you've met). No way marrying her is the right thing to do.

 

In the two years, you could have found a beautiful look-alike or another more local woman, but you 'clung' on to this woman. WHY? I don't know her motivations truly, but yours seems a little unhealthy. Are you obsessed with this Italian beauty? Romanticized by her allure, exotic nature? Why her from the start and even after the affair she lied about?

[therevada]

My goodness, the cheating was 2-yrs ago?! This changes my perspective some. Darn wish people wouldn't leave out VERY important information when asking for advice, etc.

 

I did say "The reason for my delay is that a couple of years ago, she cheated on me". My fault for being too wordy and not putting this at the top, sorry!

 

In the two years, you could have found a beautiful look-alike or another more local woman, but you 'clung' on to this woman. WHY? I don't know her motivations truly, but yours seems a little unhealthy. Are you obsessed with this Italian beauty? Romanticized by her allure, exotic nature? Why her from the start and even after the affair she lied about?

 

This really hit home. I'm not obsessed with her, but I have my reasons. I'm going to be 100%, painfully honest here, because it's the only way to get meaningful advice, which I appreciate:

 

1. I've had a series of relationships prior to this that I chose to end. I didn't want to end another, I wanted to make this one work.

2. We've had some really special times together. It's been incredibly intense and - putting aside the cheating incident 2 years ago - I love that she's as romantic as I am, full of aspirations and dreams rather than jaded and cynical like so many local women I seem to meet, and incredibly affectionate like me rather than a bit distant and aloof, again like so many local women I seem to meet, who seem bemused by my affectionate nature and just in a hurry to have kids.

3. Yes, she's incredibly beautiful. And I put this down as one reason why she was tested in an LDR, and being naive and frankly a bit dumb, she thought "what the hell, who knows if this new relationship is going to work out anyway, I've never even been to NYC, it never seems to last with these kind of guys and I just want some fun" and put herself in a very dangerous situation. They didn't have sex, and believe it or not, I think that's true. No, I'm not a total love-struck idiot, I was astute and analytical enough to realise the whole thing had happened in the first place, and I pay attention to details.

4. I have health issues that make it hard for me to get out on the dating scene much. When I was in Italy, I had the time and space to invest in building a relationship, and sometimes I don't feel I'm going to get that kind of chance again.

5. Partly because of the culture difference, she's incredibly kind towards my parents, and has taught me the value of family. I had an ex who was horrible towards them.

EDIT 6. We feel incredibly emotionally attached. This may or may not be a healthy thing.

Edited November 27, 2016 by therevada

[Gr8fuln2020]

I did say "The reason for my delay is that a couple of years ago, she cheated on me". My fault for being too wordy and not putting this at the top, sorry!

 

 

 

This really hit home. I'm not obsessed with her, but I have my reasons. I'm going to be 100%, painfully honest here, because it's the only way to get meaningful advice, which I appreciate:

 

1. I've had a series of relationships prior to this that I chose to end. I didn't want to end another, I wanted to make this one work.

 

Understand, but be warned, there were reasons to end them, right? Don't under-value the power of separation when it is more hurtful than healthy. Don't be a slave to commitment for commitment's sake. Way too many people do and end up wasting many years or a lifetime being unhappy.

 

2. We've had some really special times together. It's been incredibly intense and - putting aside the cheating incident 2 years ago - I love that she's as romantic as I am, full of aspirations and dreams rather than jaded and cynical like so many local women I seem to meet, and incredibly affectionate like me rather than a bit distant and aloof, again like so many local women I seem to meet, who seem bemused by my affectionate nature and just in a hurry to have kids.

 

I hear you, but it must be NYC. Or wherever you are. I have met quite a few women and they are not as cynical or jaded. There are plenty of affectionate women. I am very affectionate and have yet to meet a woman who didn't appreciate that depth of affection.

 

3. Yes, she's incredibly beautiful. And I put this down as one reason why she was tested in an LDR, and being naive and frankly a bit dumb, she thought "what the hell, who knows if this new relationship is going to work out anyway, I've never even been to NYC, it never seems to last with these kind of guys and I just want some fun" and put herself in a very dangerous situation. They didn't have sex, and believe it or not, I think that's true. No, I'm not a total love-struck idiot, I was astute and analytical enough to realise the whole thing had happened in the first place, and I pay attention to details.

4. I have health issues that make it hard for me to get out on the dating scene much. When I was in Italy, I had the time and space to invest in building a relationship, and sometimes I don't feel I'm going to get that kind of chance again.

 

What issues, if I may ask?

 

5. Partly because of the culture difference, she's incredibly kind towards my parents, and has taught me the value of family. I had an ex who was horrible towards them.

 

EDIT 6. We feel incredibly emotionally attached. This may or may not be a healthy thing.

 

Yes and No. As long as you can remain objective and recognize when issues arise and you deal with them. Forgive when you can and let go when you need to.

 

I don't know her true intent, but if you want to move forward, you MUST forgive, let go and find a way to make this relationship more tangible. Not a few times a year thing. I just cannot imagine really knowing someone with how few times you two meet.

[therevada]

Thanks for the reply @simpleNfit.

 

I guess I've had a few bad experiences in the past, and this relationship seemed so refreshingly different at first. I was in a lustless marriage for years with a woman who ended up being borderline abusive tbh, and kicked me out of my our home after a decade. Thereafter I seemed to just meet women who wanted kids asap and saw me as reliable and kind. But when I met this girl, not only was there a tonne of lust on both sides, but she was sweet and affectionate and full of dreams. I fell for it, and I know that although she had doubts at first (manifested with the cheating, at its worst point), she has grown to love me very much and wants to be fully committed.

 

Re: health issues - I won't go into everything but what I'm prepared to say is severe depression that makes it hard for me to socialise. When I was in Italy, she was patient and took time with me, probably because everything was new to her and she was just going along with lust at the time.

 

I don't know her true intent, but if you want to move forward, you MUST forgive, let go and find a way to make this relationship more tangible. Not a few times a year thing. I just cannot imagine really knowing someone with how few times you two meet.

 

That's the problem. We've looked into everything and it seems the only way we can make this relationship more tangible is through marriage.

[justwhoiam]

I'm in a similar situation, in some aspects.

 

The huge difference is that - since being together and committed - we didn't have sex with anyone else.

I was suspicious for some time. Now and then I still think about it, but I guess it's just understandable in this situation, when we're apart.

 

In your case, I think being cheated ruined it for you. If you can't go past it, you need to break up with her and move on, for your own sake and hers.

 

You spending $2,000 for her flight doesn't automatically mean commitment, sorry. If you thought that without spelling it out, you were wrong assuming that.

 

I think men who give little away then can't complain about being misunderstood. Also, I can understand a woman wanting to know the rules. My man expressed his will to commitment in a very lovely, unconventional way a few months after we fell for each other (two months after our second meetup).

 

By the way, I don't know her, so I'm not sure she's the kind you should pursue. I'm not sure how long had you been together, like official boyfriend and girlfriend when she cheated on you? I think American guys are used to be casual. Heck, some date multiple women in the same week.

Did you ask her why she did it? And are you even sure that really happened? Are you jealous? It looks like American guys are not jealous at all, and that is weird for us. I guess my man's jealous at times, but he will never admit it. The term jealousy has a very bad connotation in the US, while in other parts of the world, it's linked to passion, like in Italy. It's like it really has a different meaning altogether.

 

I found this video very funny but deep down quite spot-on:

 

Last but not least: getting married is not just a paper for most in Italy. It's a serious, serious thing. I guess separations/divorces are like 10%, though on the rise lately. In the US, that data is 5 times bigger (around 50%). Just so you can look at things in perspective.

[therevada]

You spending $2,000 for her flight doesn't automatically mean commitment, sorry. If you thought that without spelling it out, you were wrong assuming that.

 

I think men who give little away then can't complain about being misunderstood. Also, I can understand a woman wanting to know the rules.

 

This is a fair challenge but let me explain the details: at the point I bought the flight, we had already said we loved one another, she was talking about marriage, we had promised to always be faithful etc. This is not a case of some guy throwing money at a girl and thinking he owns her.

 

I'm not sure how long had you been together, like official boyfriend and girlfriend when she cheated on you?

 

6 months spent in person.

 

Did you ask her why she did it? And are you even sure that really happened?

 

Yes to both. She said she was curious to know if he really did find her attractive because she didn't believe my compliments alone, she found him attractive so she wanted to "take advantage" of his advances because guys were always trying to take advantage of her so she felt like she was getting her own back by "using him", and that she thought I might also just be using her and wouldn't stick around anyway.

 

Last but not least: getting married is not just a paper for most in Italy. It's a serious, serious thing. I guess separations/divorces are like 10%, though on the rise lately. In the US, that data is 5 times bigger (around 50%). Just so you can look at things in perspective.

 

Thanks for this. You're right - it is taken much more seriously and she considers infidelity in marriage to be a huge sin.

[justwhoiam]

6 months spent in person.

I have three comments regarding this.

1. I start from the point that most girls wouldn't have sex with anyone else if they fell in love with a guy and the feeling is reciprocated.

2. That said, this sounds like a case of holiday crush. Like a summer fling. You know the person will go back to the place where they live and there's a chance nothing will really come out of it. She admitted she thought that. She was doubtful about your good intentions.

3. A girl using someone is seldom good news.

 

she considers infidelity in marriage to be a huge sin.

I thought the same when I was younger. I was more extreme. That usually gets toned down with age, while you learn that a lot of unconventional, unexpected things can happen to a couple. What is best in a relationship is better decided by the two people involved. And the more we adapt ourselves to circumstances, the better we live.

[bellasmith123]

It depends you! I am a staff on the study of CAR T cell. In my field, I sew an example to break up because of cancer. That is a such moving story, because the girl put forward break-up for her cancer that the boy even don't know the truth. The girl just don't want the boy to be so worried.

[Sweetfish]

I'm trying to figure out how this is different from those Nigerian scams.

 

She is probably still cheating on you... while you have your heart and penis in a glass jar she is having a grand ole time. When you marry this chick and you spend even more money on her and she gets passage to the United states. She WILL cheat on you again.. and take your money, house, and the worse your man card.