Alpha, beta ?

[basil67]

I think the most laughable part of all of this is that the folks who are the first to dismiss this stuff as bunk, are also the same folks who firmly believe in evolution and they'd be the first to admit that we are nothing but a more slightly advanced, upright form of ape or chimpanzee....

 

TFY

 

I might come on board with the idea if there was general consensus at large as to what the terms mean.

 

At this point in time, people use the word to mean anything anything from being arrogant and rude to being a good leader to having charisma. This renders the term meaningless.

[Sweetfish]

Actually, the inner workings of a car have a lot more value than a random, subjective label - on a practical level, the parts have the exact same meaning in every car so if I need something fixing, I can put a name to it and get it sorted. In the same way, all it takes to get the remote control working is to change the batteries so I can flick channels when Game of Thrones is on.

 

 

Very good rebuttal, but the subjective label of the inner workings of a car is more that just a practical meaning of all cars have the same parts or all remotes just requires batteries. Its the fact that I can walk outside this very moment and ask 20 women how a car works and i will be looked upon dumb founded, because majority of women have no value in such information, because it has no value to them. The Alpha and Beta nonsense has no value to you because as you said in a sense "if the male doesn't work, simply change the batteries" maybe because you have an abundance of batteries at your whim.

 

A guy subjectively labeling himself as 'alpha' or 'beta' gives no particular insight into his thoughts, character, moral values, intellectual capacities or street-smarts - gives an idea of how he rates himself (which isn't very accurate anyway), but that's about it.

 

That's because the idea of being Alpha or Beta is not based on intelligence, street smarts or moral values. It promotes it though. Its the fact that you can have morals, be smarts, and financially stable and still fail in relationship market is a reality.

 

Just as you label your self "Pretty" in your screen name it does not define your character. Yet you took some psychological effort to place it their. I bet the fact that you are more pretty than another women has value. Correcting ance or putting on make up to enhance your face is probably equivalent to the non-sense called alpha or beta.

 

Because on a basic practical level, looks are what attract men and certain ques attract women. While its ok for women to enhance those looks to attract a better mate it seems that women get defensive when men learn the ques that attract women.

 

Aren't they both manipulation on the same level. SO your telling me you don't wear lipstick or do any type of working out or buying clothes to impress men when you go out.

 

IRL, men who actually get things done don't care one jot about labeling themselves or others because, you know, they're too busy getting things done so yeah, I guess I have more respect for guys who don't care.

 

That statement made no sense... You have no respect for guys that don't label them selves...? LMAO..

 

Ok...money on the table... Ask any guy in realtime if they define them selves as Alpha or Beta and let me know your results. Just because someone doesn't define them selves doesn't mean they are not.

[jen1447]

Just as you label your self "Pretty" in your screen name it does not define your character. Yet you took some psychological effort to place it their. I bet the fact that you are more pretty than another women has value. Correcting ance or putting on make up to enhance your face is probably equivalent to the non-sense called alpha or beta.

 

I'll let Emily explain why but you just kinda proved the point about the meaninglessness of the terms due to ambiguity.

[Sweetfish]

Frankly, not is a bad way, I use the genius people to get the job done. They solve problems for me. But otherwise, frankly those people are kind of losers in a social/life skill ways.

 

I don't think that any of this has to do with alpha beta stuff, it is kind of just the way life is...

 

So you don't label your self as Alpha male... but yet you uses lower level men to advance for your self. But its not ok to label your self..yet some how your collectively different than these males.

 

The genius people as a collective whole, you see them as losers or weak. They lack the social ques to be considered attractive. Yet you wouldn't call them beta.

 

So you consider Alpha and beta to be nonsense yet... in the same manner with out label you label a collective group of weak individuals:lmao:

 

Interesting.

[Sweetfish]

I'll let Emily explain why but you just kinda proved the point about the meaninglessness of the terms due to ambiguity.

 

 

lol... this is gonna be interesting

[losangelena]

btw, why the need to bring trump into the discussion?

 

Because his name must be interjected into 75% of all conversations from now until 2020.

 

 

[Sunkissedpatio]

I believe there is some truth to alpha/beta labels and I don't think it is necessarily exclusive to the male population. I think women can also be Alpha and Beta.

 

I believe also in type A personalities and type Bs. We've all seen this in the work place. There are those people that will always do transactional work and are happy never taking initiative or doing anything to further their progress and who prefer to keep it safe then there are those who start to get itchy in their seat if they have been doing a specific role for a certain period of time. They are looking for bigger an better and are completing their MBA as they are climbing the corporate ladder, they quit a secure good job to go start their own company, or they apply for that management role even though they have only been with the company for 5 months and there are other legacy employees that the role should go to instead etc.

 

There are the types of people who will manage others and there are those who will happily take orders and produce work that is asked of them instead of leading the work they want to see get done. And I think this can translate into how we relate in a romantic sense for sure.

 

There are people that thrive leading, are risk takers, they don't allow their fears to stop them from reaching whatever goal they set their mind to achieve and others that are in utter contentment to just follow the herd.

 

Yup, I think there is some truth to it and there are distinct tendencies in human drive.

 

 

I do believe that the alpha/beta thing has been significantly bastardized and taken way out of context and wrongfully used by "dating coaches" and PUAs and that is why we all have such a bad taste in our mouths when we hear those labels.

[Wade Lamare]

for pete's sake...maybe that's how you see yourself, but I see myself as something far more than an advanced chimpanzee, any more than I see an octopus as some sort of advanced clam

 

Advanced chimpanzee? Interestingly our nearest DNA match is the Bonobo chimpanzee. They have a complex social structure, the nearest thing they have to an alpha is the matriarch of the group.

She usually reaches that position by seniority and her 'skill' at bearing babies. Any male who wants recognition within the group has to ingratiate himself to her.

They are one of the few animals who have sex for fun.

 

No one male is truly the 'alpha male' all males of breeding age seem to have equal opportunities for sex and the females are promiscuous.

 

They have far more similarities to our own complex society than the simplistic alpha dalpha doodah nonsense.

[BluesPower]

So you don't label your self as Alpha male... but yet you uses lower level men to advance for your self. But its not ok to label your self..yet some how your collectively different than these males.

 

The genius people as a collective whole, you see them as losers or weak. They lack the social ques to be considered attractive. Yet you wouldn't call them beta.

 

So you consider Alpha and beta to be nonsense yet... in the same manner with out label you label a collective group of weak individuals:lmao:

 

Interesting.

 

Sweetfish, I am not sure that I completely understand where you are coming from. And, I don't ever know if I should be insulted or take it as a compliment or not.

 

No I do not label myself anything actually. Yes I use the genius people to get things done, I mean that is the reason that they are there.

 

Don't forget the I also provide a service to them because I am smart enough to understand them and explain the stuff to people that cannot understand the technical stuff that these guys are saying.

 

Actually, my job in a lot of ways it to translate to upper level exec's, in a way that they can understand.

 

And, yes a lot of these guys lack social skills.

 

So what are you saying that because I communicate effectively with a large swath of people that I am some kind of big, bad alpha?

 

I am not sure that I buy that. Also, you have to realize that for whatever reason there are weak people and strong people in this world.

 

How many guys post on LS about a wife that is obviously stepping out and the "Just don't know what to do".

 

I mean, how hard is that to figure out? It would seem that some people are just weak, I don't know any other way to describe it.

 

Could someone help me understand what I am missing?

[Weezy1973]

The main problem with dichotomous labeling is that it literally doesn't apply to humans (or any biological species)...whether it's alpha / beta, Type A / Type B or introvert / extrovert etc. By nature populations are a bell curve which means that the majority of people fall somewhere in the middle of any measure and there is massive variability in populations.

 

That being said, I when people refer to alpha / beta (again keeping in mind pretty much nobody falls solely into these categories) I think:

 

Alpha male: Has sex with many women, but commits to none.

 

Beta male: Commits to one woman, but is not as sexually attractive.

[Wade Lamare]

 

Ok...money on the table... Ask any guy in realtime if they define them selves as Alpha or Beta and let me know your results. Just because someone doesn't define them selves doesn't mean they are not.

 

*Waves hand* Me!

 

I don't define myself as alpha or beta. I am a complex mix of the traits classified by others as alpha and beta. That mix can change from day to day, week to week and year to year depending on circumstances or how I feel.

 

The only thing I have any concern over is every morning, as I shave, whether the man that looks back at me is a man I like looking back at. Whether he 'acted like a man' yesterday and whether he will act like a man today and tomorrow.

[PrettyEmily77]

Very good rebuttal, but the subjective label of the inner workings of a car is more that just a practical meaning of all cars have the same parts or all remotes just requires batteries. Its the fact that I can walk outside this very moment and ask 20 women how a car works and i will be looked upon dumb founded, because majority of women have no value in such information, because it has no value to them.

 

Knowledge and value are two different concepts - I may not know much about how cars work (I do, but that's besides the point) but that doesn't mean it doesn't have any value to me

 

 

The Alpha and Beta nonsense has no value to you because as you said in a sense "if the male doesn't work, simply change the batteries" maybe because you have an abundance of batteries at your whim.

 

You missed my point entirely, which is that while it is easy to fix a car or get a remote control working, since they are objects, it is not so simple to define men.

 

.That's because the idea of being Alpha or Beta is not based on intelligence, street smarts or moral values. It promotes it though. Its the fact that you can have morals, be smarts, and financially stable and still fail in relationship market is a reality.

 

The 'idea' of being 'alpha' or whatever is based on perception which, by definition, is subjective. If 'alpha' means different things to different people, it becomes meaningless.

 

Just as you label your self "Pretty" in your screen name it does not define your character. Yet you took some psychological effort to place it their. I bet the fact that you are more pretty than another women has value. Correcting ance or putting on make up to enhance your face is probably equivalent to the non-sense called alpha or beta.

 

My handle isn't a personal reference - that would be gratuitous, self-indulgent and arrogant, wouldn't it... .

 

So you've made totally unfounded assumptions on a total stranger based on nothing.

 

Because on a basic practical level, looks are what attract men and certain ques attract women. While its ok for women to enhance those looks to attract a better mate it seems that women get defensive when men learn the ques that attract women.

 

Aren't they both manipulation on the same level. SO your telling me you don't wear lipstick or do any type of working out or buying clothes to impress men when you go out.

 

 

 

That statement made no sense... You have no respect for guys that don't label them selves...? LMAO..

 

Look, most people's aim in life is to strive to be good people, not worry about how they are defined and constantly wonder how other people see them.

 

I don't need that sort of validation, and I prefer to be with like-minded people.

 

 

Ok...money on the table... Ask any guy in realtime if they define them selves as Alpha or Beta and let me know your results. Just because someone doesn't define them selves doesn't mean they are not.

 

Ina ll honestly, I'm pretty sure most level-headed men I know simply don't care about that kind of stuff...

[Sweetfish]

*Waves hand* Me!

 

I don't define myself as alpha or beta. I am a complex mix of the traits classified by others as alpha and beta. That mix can change from day to day, week to week and year to year depending on circumstances or how I feel.

 

The only thing I have any concern over is every morning, as I shave, whether the man that looks back at me is a man I like looking back at. Whether he 'acted like a man' yesterday and whether he will act like a man today and tomorrow.

 

So one minute you don't believe in alpha or beta.. yet now you consider your self as a complex mixture of both.

 

So it exist..but does not exist.

[Sweetfish]

Sweetfish, I am not sure that I completely understand where you are coming from. And, I don't ever know if I should be insulted or take it as a compliment or not.

 

No I do not label myself anything actually. Yes I use the genius people to get things done, I mean that is the reason that they are there.

 

Don't forget the I also provide a service to them because I am smart enough to understand them and explain the stuff to people that cannot understand the technical stuff that these guys are saying.

 

Actually, my job in a lot of ways it to translate to upper level exec's, in a way that they can understand.

 

And, yes a lot of these guys lack social skills.

 

So what are you saying that because I communicate effectively with a large swath of people that I am some kind of big, bad alpha?

 

I am not sure that I buy that. Also, you have to realize that for whatever reason there are weak people and strong people in this world.

 

How many guys post on LS about a wife that is obviously stepping out and the "Just don't know what to do".

 

I mean, how hard is that to figure out? It would seem that some people are just weak, I don't know any other way to describe it.

 

Could someone help me understand what I am missing?

 

 

You just called the people you work with losers.

 

Now your saying you understand them and is the bridge between the upper exec and the people below you.

 

they are as a group collectively losers.

 

but you dont want to label anyone..

 

So yeah i give up on this

[Wade Lamare]

So one minute you don't believe in alpha or beta.. yet now you consider your self as a complex mixture of both.

 

So it exist..but does not exist.

 

No, I said I'm a complex mix of the traits classified by others as alpha or beta. Bit of a difference.

[wmacbride]

*Waves hand* Me!

 

I don't define myself as alpha or beta. I am a complex mix of the traits classified by others as alpha and beta. That mix can change from day to day, week to week and year to year depending on circumstances or how I feel.

 

The only thing I have any concern over is every morning, as I shave, whether the man that looks back at me is a man I like looking back at. Whether he 'acted like a man' yesterday and whether he will act like a man today and tomorrow.

 

Howe foes one "act like a man" anyway? What does that really mean?

[wmacbride]

You just called the people you work with losers.

 

Now your saying you understand them and is the bridge between the upper exec and the people below you.

 

they are as a group collectively losers.

 

but you dont want to label anyone..

 

So yeah i give up on this

 

What I got out of the post is that it takes a mix of people to keep a company, or society as a whole, running smoothly. Fitting each person into a neat little box doesn't work.

 

As I have said before, even on this thread, there have been many definitions of "alpha" and 'beta" floated, and they don't all agree. If no one really knows what they mean, then what purpose do these labels really serve, except to an individual.

[wmacbride]

Howe foes one "act like a man" anyway? What does that really mean?

 

stupid auto correct...that should be " how" and "does"....

[wmacbride]

How about this..give your definition of these terms.

[thefooloftheyear]

for pete's sake...maybe that's how you see yourself, but I see myself as something far more than an advanced chimpanzee, any more than I see an octopus as some sort of advanced clam

 

 

Where did I say that's how I see myself.??

 

If you believe all people are created equal, and that each and every Marine that ever served has the same leadership and skill set as "Mad Dog", but they just had better things to do with their lives....well...we don't have much to discuss, then...

 

There are Chiefs and there are Indians....This is nothing new...

 

TFY

[Haydn]

How about this..give your definition of these terms.

 

Making a pot of tea. 3 teabags. (waiting politely as it brews)

 

Or

 

A huge Chelsea FC mug with the teabag left in. (To be be slurped)

 

Your guess is as good as mine.

[Sunkissedpatio]

How about this..give your definition of these terms.

 

Ok I'll bite:

 

I think of this when I think of Alpha traits:

 

Confident

 

Determined

 

Takes the lead/determined/driven

 

Unstoppable, not easily discouraged by failure

 

Loyal (values loyalty above all else Trump could very well fit under this trait, look at his cabinet appointees he clearly values loyalty forsaking sound decisions but that's also what makes him a bozo, which leads me to;)

 

Unflappable (Obama shows more alpha traits all in)

 

Charismatic and articulate, not shy but not necessarily the life of the party

 

Humble yet confident the complete opposite of someone who brags

 

Observant and balanced, knows his/her place in a social situation

 

Perceptive and intuitive to his/her advantage

 

Non-reactive

 

Walks the talk, does not follow the herd and is not willing to compromise their morals and values for the sake of social expectations

 

Strong physical presence (not necessarily a 10 or even a 7 but their body language, how they dress and carry themselves portrays an air that commands attention)

 

Risk taker (and I don't mean having sex without a condom type of risk , the type or risk that potentially improves your life

 

Beta complete opposite of all that.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[Wade Lamare]

Howe foes one "act like a man" anyway? What does that really mean?

 

Work hard, help provide for my family, love my wife, guide my children and grandchildren and help secure our future.

 

To be honest wmacbride I should have typed act like a man I'm happy to look in the eye but it just seemed to be a bit long.

 

Basically I just want to look in the mirror and see a good husband, dad and granddad looking back at me. Don't always succeed but hey ho, none of us are perfect!

Edited December 5, 2016 by Wade Lamare
removed comma.

[Weezy1973]

And as Sunkissed perfectly exemplifies - to them Alpha means whatever in their view is the perfect guy. But as I said, when looking at real definitions, alpha refers to males that have sex with all the possible females, but commit to none. And that's why these terms are meaningless.

[thefooloftheyear]

Ok I'll bite:

 

I think of this when I think of Alpha traits:

 

Confident

 

Determined

 

Takes the lead/determined/driven

 

Unstoppable, not easily discouraged by failure

 

Loyal (values loyalty above all else Trump could very well fit under this trait, look at his cabinet appointees he clearly values loyalty forsaking sound decisions but that's also what makes him a bozo, which leads me to;)

 

Unflappable (Obama shows more alpha traits all in)

 

Charismatic and articulate, not shy but not necessarily the life of the party

 

Humble yet confident the complete opposite of someone who brags

 

Observant and balanced, knows his/her place in a social situation

 

Perceptive and intuitive to his/her advantage

 

Non-reactive

 

Walks the talk, does not follow the herd and is not willing to compromise their morals and values for the sake of social expectations

 

Strong physical presence (not necessarily a 10 or even a 7 but their body language, how they dress and carry themselves portrays an air that commands attention)

 

Risk taker (and I don't mean having sex without a condom type of risk , the type or risk that potentially improves your life

 

Beta complete opposite of all that.

 

Well put....

 

The only thing I would add is that Alpha traits can also manifest in negative ways...Many of the convicted felons. drug lords, organized crime bosses, etc, are sitting in prisons have true Alpha traits...Many of them the same as you mentioned, just misplaced in crime and deviant behavior..

 

Not surprisingly, many outwardly normal women often see men like this attractive or stand behind them no matter the circumstance...On the one hand you might think what type of woman would stand behind a violent convicted felon, yet they are there every visiting time, posting bail money, taking care of their business, etc..

 

TFY