Alpha, beta ?

[basil67]

So many contradictions on what it means to be Alpha.

[normal person]

So does this make hubby and I both alphas and the children betas?

 

Of your family, yes. More or less. You probably don't expect to your kids to put food on the table, or money in the bank, but they depend on you to do it for their survival. They defer to you because you control the resources.

 

 

When I was a kid, it bugged me how my dog didn't follow me around or sit obediently at my feet the way he did for my dad. I couldn't really comprehend why it was like that until I was much older -- my dad fed him, my dad decided when he went for walks, my dad held the leash and managed the dog's mobility, etc. The dog knew my dad pretty much controlled his life. He was dependent on my dad for food, quality of life, freedom, and ultimately survival. My dad controlled the dog's resources, therefore the dog deferred to my dad.

 

Likely it's the same thing with your kids. They don't have jobs, skills, adequate means of feeding themselves or putting shelter over their heads, etc. You provide them with those things, so they defer to you. Now, going one step further, you and your husband probably have bosses who pay you, so in turn, they control your resources, so that's probably why you defer to them and do what they want.

 

"Alphaness" is having and/or providing the things others need or want for survival, advancement, enjoyment, etc. If you have the money, the food, the shelter, the strength, the beauty, the intelligence, the cunningness, the killer instinct, or whatever it is that's needed or desired in that moment, then you're the alpha (or whatever we're calling it). Other people will defer to you for it.

Edited December 7, 2016 by normal person

[5x5]

So many contradictions on what it means to be Alpha.

 

Alpha - is a descriptor of the letter "A" from the phonetic alphabet that I used when operating radios in the Australian Army.

 

Beta - is that video tape that wasn't as pervasive as VHS was.

[Justanaverageguy]

The number one trait that the 'natural alphas' that these guys look up to isn't negging, peacocking, smiling, approaching, not smiling or whatever psycho babble is popular, it's quiet confidence.

 

Agreed.

 

I don't do the 20 women thing, I'm a happily married man, but I often chat to random women because I love to chat, especially to women as I really love the way they are different to us. Since I turned 25 I've never been cold shouldered or ignored. I might chat about wine in the supermarket and swap recommendations. I recently complimented a little cracker on her Louboutin shoes. She was gobsmacked that a guy knew about Christian Louboutin.

 

Something that pretty much every guy has noticed at some point of their life is that it is much easier to pickup women - when you are not actually trying to pickup women. The inevitable - why are the girls always into me when I have a girlfriend? It comes back to the statement above - confidence. When you are simply trying to talk to a girl rather then get her into the sack or get her number normally you are more relaxed, natural, confident. The conversation isn't forced, you aren't pea-cocking or trying to impress her, there isn't an ulterior motive. A conversation style emerges which isn't always trying to force itself to a specific end result. Women are very attracted to that natural understated confident \ self assuredness.

 

As you stated often what you see with the PUA style is shy guys with no confidence who over compensate and swing too far in the opposite direction.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Justanaverageguy

[thefooloftheyear]

I guess we're still at this...?

 

One more time...

 

Chiefs and Indians....This is nothing new, people......

 

Alpha has nothing to do with picking up women...There are alpha males that aren't players, and there are beta's that are cleaning up...All that can be said on that front is that generally speaking, alpha traits seem desirable to most women.....

 

I also raise a suspicious eye to so called studies done by psych's and sociologists, as there has been a movement afoot to make human society "gender" and otherwise neutral...That we are all the same, save for a few body parts, and everyone has a same chance at anything in life...They just need the right stimuli....I'll just say I am not buying that stuff...

 

And yes, as the other poster above mentioned, the schemes to "get" more alpha are nothing but snake oil garbage...The theory is that if an ugly duckling, socially inept guy can somehow develop traits associated with the Alpha, then it will overcome his bad looks or general undesirability with women....Good luck with that...

 

Children in groups, even as 5 year olds, will display this type of behavior, if its in them...That blows the theory that you "become" alpha by money power, being 6 foot + tall, a CEO, or status...

 

As stated, its not anything to do with being able to score hot women...Heck, the Pope is probably a strong Alpha...I don't know, because I know nothing of him, but I wouldn't in the least bit be surprised..

 

For Alpha men, its how they are viewed by other men that is what generally defines it...I have been operating my own company for close to 30 years now, and its a male dominated business....I have done some consulting for similar businesses...The one main problem I see is difficulty managing the guys, because the traits of the owner don't allow for a level or respect from his crew...And no, being a loud, overbearing tyrant boss doesn't make you an Alpha,...most Alpha's get respect without even communicating....All through body language..

 

Without that, then all the guy can do is overpay for his help....and still get shyt on....The best advice I give to these guys is stay out of the personnel end of it and hire a front guy that has the type of characteristics that he doesn't...Communicate your desires, and let that guy be the one that delegates...Its the only way it works...

 

And when its in you, then its not that difficult ...

 

TFY

Edited December 7, 2016 by thefooloftheyear

[jen1447]

Interestingly, "alpha male" is actually in the dictionary.

 

 

Oxford -

 

1 The dominant male animal in a particular group:

‘two of them trotted over to greet the alpha male, a black wolf with a greying muzzle’

 

1.1 A man tending to assume a dominant or domineering role in social or professional situations:

‘most alpha males need to control the women in their lives’

 

Dictionary.com -

 

1 a male animal having the highest rank in a dominance hierarchy:

'Studies show that in spite of their high rank, access to females, etc., baboon alpha males experience a great deal of stress.'

 

2 the most dominant, powerful, or assertive man in a particular group:

'the alpha male of investment bankers.'

 

 

"Alpha female" isn't in the dictionary.

 

 

Just plain "alpha" has a lower pertinent listing with Oxford -

 

1.4 informal [as modifier] Denoting a person who has a dominant role or position within a particular sphere:

‘take turns cooking for each other if one of you is too much of an alpha chef’

 

And Dictionary.com -

 

8.b. being the most dominant, powerful, or assertive person in a particular group.

 

 

So it seems like about the best we can do for an actual definition is "dominant," which isn't really all that descriptive.

[BlueIris]

... I recently complimented a little cracker on her Louboutin shoes. She was gobsmacked that a guy knew about Christian Louboutin. ....

 

... How the fudge does he know what a cave man did?

 

Dang. No cave man knew diddly about Louboutins. Very alpha of you there. Master of the modern world.

[Wade Lamare]

"Alpha" and "beta" are metaphors to describe what people will eventually gravitate toward. It is a black-and-white marketed and simplified version of how to attract the opposite gender for sex for men. It was a step-by-step process for the average guy down the street to legitimately attract a woman because previously, and full of failure, he wasn't able to do it and now has been presented a plan that was/is/will be proven over and over again.

 

It's the 20% of men that women chase, sharing the knowledge to the 80% of men that apparently don't get as much play. Whether you desire that play or not is completely irrelevant.

 

Distilled down to the very core of the information being shared, it's also a way for the men who are too shy, too powerless, too socially inept to get into women's panties..

 

 

Alpha has nothing to do with picking up women..

 

 

As stated, its not anything to do with being able to score hot women

 

TFY

 

 

So tell me again guys what alpha is? It's obviously about learning how to attract women, except it's not.

 

This is the problem. No one can agree on what alpha is and how you achieve it because it's an over simplified way of trying to explain complex human social interactions.

[Wade Lamare]

Dang. No cave man knew diddly about Louboutins. Very alpha of you there. Master of the modern world.

 

Raawwrrrrr.

[Wade Lamare]

 

 

 

Children in groups, even as 5 year olds, will display this type of behavior, if its in them...That blows the theory that you "become" alpha by money power, being 6 foot + tall, a CEO, or status...

 

 

 

 

 

TFY

 

So you still haven't answered my earlier question about Suge Knight.

 

You put him forward as an example of an alpha who has done things with his life.

 

He is 6' 2" tall, to my male eyes he looks like a handsome chap if perhaps a bit of a chubster these days. And he got famous and rich because he was quite good at running around with a bag of air in his hands

 

Do you think you'd have even heard of Mr Alpha Suge Knight if he'd been born as ugly as an ugly thing, 5' 4" and flipped burgers for a living?

[Wade Lamare]

And no, you don't become alpha simply by ticking boxes, if I gave the impression that I thought that was the case then I mistyped.

 

A significant majority of people regarded as 'alpha' are tall, handsome, reasonably intelligent and with a deep voice.

 

A significant majority of people who are short, have a face that looks like a slapped arse and are relatively puny are not regarded as 'alpha'.

 

Yes, there are outliers but statistically few and far between.

[wmacbride]

So tell me again guys what alpha is? It's obviously about learning how to attract women, except it's not.

 

This is the problem. No one can agree on what alpha is and how you achieve it because it's an over simplified way of trying to explain complex human social interactions.

 

a lot of it sounds to me like it's cultural and situational.

 

put some guy who thinks he's 'alpha" into a group where he doesn't know the topic being addressed and he can't lead, and is he still an alpha? No. All his self confidence won't make any difference. He'll just end up showing how little he knows and fall on his face. ( situational)

 

It's also cultural because what traits some might consider to be "alpha" in one culture just end up making a man look like an arrogant jackass in another.

 

For example, take a man who is considered to be "alpha" in one culture and put him in another and those same traits may not be valued much at all. Before my husband joined the military, he worked at a company in their clean room doing work with microchips. The other men he worked with were all from China, and one day they were talking about differences in western culture and the culture they had grown up in. There, skill, ability and knowledge were highly rated, and they had little use for what some here would call "alpha". In fact, they saw those traits as indicating the person had little skill, knowledge or ability. They might be good at running their mouths and baffling with bullsh$t, but that's about it.

[Wade Lamare]

 

Having money is not alpha. TV show Million Dollar something Matchmaker. Every week a rich guy can't get a woman to have a relationship with him.

 

 

You do realise that 'Million Dollar something Matchmaker' is not a documentary?

 

These TV shows have been known to be fake you know.

 

A day or two ago it was alpha because Adam Sandler.

 

Now it's not alpha because Million Dollar Matchmaker.

 

Make believe shows don't impress me as arguments.

 

If you've got 1000 tall, handsome, deep voiced, reasonably intelligent men and you've got 1000 short, fugly, chubby pipsqueaks, although I have no direct evidence to back it up I am absolutely certain that there will be a higher percentage of peeps regarded as 'alpha' in the first group when compared to the second.

[road]

So tell me again guys what alpha is? It's obviously about learning how to attract women, except it's not.

 

This is the problem. No one can agree on what alpha is and how you achieve it because it's an over simplified way of trying to explain complex human social interactions.

 

Alpha is based on the setting one is in.

 

 

In high school: the student that is the football hero and class president gets to have the head cheerleader as his GF.

 

 

In college same as HS now he is known as the BMOC. Big man on campus.

 

 

In the work place he gets the raises, promotions, easy high paying assignments.

 

 

In his community he gets to head the school board, chief volunteer fire department, key positions in his church membership.

 

 

In the club, bar, beach, where every there are women to be found, he gets to nail all the hot ones.

 

 

Simple the man can be the alpha at the beach but nothing at his church. Still makes him alpha with the women.

 

 

A man does not have to be alpha in every setting he places himself in. He is happy being the silver back on the school board does not diminish that because he does not want to dog around looking for women to bang on the side. Even if he can't get no strange and he wants it bad. Still no one will challenge him at a board meeting or come re-election time because he has what makes him dominate and the alpha there.

[Wade Lamare]

Alpha is based on the setting one is in.

 

 

In high school: the student that is the football hero and class president gets to have the head cheerleader as his GF.

 

 

In college same as HS now he is known as the BMOC. Big man on campus.

 

 

In the work place he gets the raises, promotions, easy high paying assignments.

 

 

In his community he gets to head the school board, chief volunteer fire department, key positions in his church membership.

 

 

In the club, bar, beach, where every there are women to be found, he gets to nail all the hot ones.

 

 

Simple the man can be the alpha at the beach but nothing at his church. Still makes him alpha with the women.

 

 

A man does not have to be alpha in every setting he places himself in. He is happy being the silver back on the school board does not diminish that because he does not want to dog around looking for women to bang on the side. Even if he can't get no strange and he wants it bad. Still no one will challenge him at a board meeting or come re-election time because he has what makes him dominate and the alpha there.

 

But my point was that Drreplyinrhymes categorically stated that alpha was all about getting into women's panties.

 

You stated that it was not.

 

This is part of my problem, even the exponents of alpha can't agree on what it is and how you achieve it.

It is an oversimplified attempt to explain complex human interaction.

 

It seems to have become a catchall expression for anyone who is, or appears to be, doing better in some or all aspects of their lives.

 

And again, your example of the school football hero. He hasn't had some magic fairy alpha sprinkly dust placed on his head by his fairy godmother to make him a special alpha snowflake.

Being the football hero (I assume you mean American Football?) he is highly likely to be tall, athletic/muscular, possibly good looking and reasonably intelligent.

He is not going to be the school football hero if he is 5' 4", bit of a chubster, bookish and has been hit upside the head by the ugly stick.

 

Going back to one of my points earlier I'd like to ask you a question.

 

If you took 1000 tall, athletic, handsome and reasonably intelligent guys and compared them to 1000 short, bookish, chubby and plain/fugly guys do you think there would be an even spread of 'alphas' amongst them?

 

Or do you think that the tall handsome etc. group would have an enormously higher percentage of guys perceived as 'alpha'?

 

If you answer in any other way other than the tall, handsome group tends to be perceived as 'alpha' then I'd like a photograph of you maintaining a straight face while typing it.

[Alamo657]

Even in the alpha category you have subcategories. Narcissist or altruistic, or a mix of both.

 

In all parts of the world an alpha has means , whether it be power, self assurance or money. And women love those things.

 

What's different in western society is that women are relatively free to live their own lives without the support of a man, so whereas in the rest of the world a man can get a woman only by providing for her, in the western world he also has to dominate other men around him to impress the girls and get laid. Hence the "alpha" terminology, because in the western world our social progress has actually reverted us to an animalistic sexual hierarchy.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Alamo657

[Wade Lamare]

Even in the alpha category you have subcategories. Narcissist or altruistic, or a mix of both.

 

In all parts of the world an alpha has means , whether it be power, self assurance or money. And women love those things.

 

What's different in western society is that women are relatively free to live their own lives without the support of a man, so whereas in the rest of the world a man can get a woman only by providing for her, in the western world he also has to dominate other men around him to impress the girls and get laid. Hence the "alpha" terminology, because in the western world our social progress has actually reverted us to an animalistic sexual hierarchy.

 

Ummm, no. He merely has to be confident.

 

And Alpha male studies into the animal world have been shown to be bogus. Oft quoted studies such as those into the alpha wolf have been discredited and even retracted by their original authors. They found that when studied in the wild wolf packs consisted of a mating pair and their pups.

Once the pups became old enough they set off to form their own mating pair, just like we humans do.

There is no magical quality of 'alpha' that can be bestowed on people, there is physical presence, looks, power, money, fame, confidence and a whole host of societal nuances that go to make up someone's attraction to the opposite sex. Just labelling someone alpha or beta doesn't cut it in my opinion.

[Alamo657]

Ummm, no. He merely has to be confident.

he has to be confident... amongst other things. Confidence alone is not enough, it needs to be backed up by something else : money, fame, strenght, artistry... things that the common man lacks or couldnt develop due to the necessities of life.

 

And Alpha male studies into the animal world have been shown to be bogus.

In wolf packs yes. It's still valid amongst gorillas.

[DrReplyInRhymes]

And Alpha male studies into the animal world have been shown to be bogus. Oft quoted studies such as those into the alpha wolf have been discredited and even retracted by their original authors. They found that when studied in the wild wolf packs consisted of a mating pair and their pups.

 

National Geographic and it's scientists disagree with you.

[Wade Lamare]

National Geographic and it's scientists disagree with you.

 

Well that's silly of them.

 

From the fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia.

 

"Gorillas live in groups called troops. Troops tend to be made of one adult male or silverback, multiple adult females and their offspring.

 

Mature males also tend to leave their groups and establish their own troops by attracting emigrating females."

 

From Primate Info Net,

 

"Mountain gorillas live in age-graded groups of, on average, 9.2 individuals, with one adult male (though there may be more than one), multiple adult females, and their offspring (Watts 1996;"

 

 

You were saying?

[WomenWubber]

Trump is humanity's alpha dog and yall betas know it!

[thefooloftheyear]

Here is another way to look at this....

 

Think of NFL QB's....

 

Two that come to mind are Cam Newton and Tom Brady...

 

Newton is by far the superior athlete and has the best raw tools of any QB I have ever seen, really....The guy is a freak...Legs. arm, size,. strength, everything...He's had some success, but it's been spotty, and most of it is simply derived from raw athletic ability..

 

Tom Brady is different...The guy is a leader of men...Sure, he has great skills, but not the raw skills of a Cam Newton and certainly not the athletic ability, that's for sure...But he brings leadership, and smarts, and the respect of his teammates..More so than a guy like Newton..So then, his players(many which aren't superstars themselves), up the level of their game..Historically, Brady and the Patriots have shuffled teammates in and out and have a reputation of ditching players and replacing them...The one constant is Brady....he is capable of getting the most out of anyone that fills in...They up their game..

 

It goes back to what I stated previously....Its not necessarily what they(the perceived Alphs's) do, who they are or what they look like...Its the way other men(and at times women) react/act in their presence.....That certain "it" I don't believe is something you can "get"....

 

You either have "it" or you don't...Brady has "it" and Newton doesn't..its as simple as that..

 

TFY

[BlueIris]

a lot of it sounds to me like it's cultural and situational.

 

put some guy who thinks he's 'alpha" into a group where he doesn't know the topic being addressed and he can't lead, and is he still an alpha? No. All his self confidence won't make any difference. He'll just end up showing how little he knows and fall on his face. ( situational)

 

It's also cultural because what traits some might consider to be "alpha" in one culture just end up making a man look like an arrogant jackass in another.

 

For example, take a man who is considered to be "alpha" in one culture and put him in another and those same traits may not be valued much at all. Before my husband joined the military, he worked at a company in their clean room doing work with microchips. The other men he worked with were all from China, and one day they were talking about differences in western culture and the culture they had grown up in. There, skill, ability and knowledge were highly rated, and they had little use for what some here would call "alpha". In fact, they saw those traits as indicating the person had little skill, knowledge or ability. They might be good at running their mouths and baffling with bullsh$t, but that's about it.

 

I think this is true in some segments of US society too.

[wmacbride]

Here is another way to look at this....

 

Think of NFL QB's....

 

Two that come to mind are Cam Newton and Tom Brady...

 

Newton is by far the superior athlete and has the best raw tools of any QB I have ever seen, really....The guy is a freak...Legs. arm, size,. strength, everything...He's had some success, but it's been spotty, and most of it is simply derived from raw athletic ability..

 

Tom Brady is different...The guy is a leader of men...Sure, he has great skills, but not the raw skills of a Cam Newton and certainly not the athletic ability, that's for sure...But he brings leadership, and smarts, and the respect of his teammates..More so than a guy like Newton..So then, his players(many which aren't superstars themselves), up the level of their game..Historically, Brady and the Patriots have shuffled teammates in and out and have a reputation of ditching players and replacing them...The one constant is Brady....he is capable of getting the most out of anyone that fills in...They up their game..

 

It goes back to what I stated previously....Its not necessarily what they(the perceived Alphs's) do, who they are or what they look like...Its the way other men(and at times women) react/act in their presence.....That certain "it" I don't believe is something you can "get"....

 

You either have "it" or you don't...Brady has "it" and Newton doesn't..its as simple as that..

 

TFY

 

I don't watch football,so I don't really know who either of these two guys are.

That being said,that leadership is situational.Do you think if Mr.Brady was put into an environment where a football related skillet wasn't useful that he would be a leader? Say, for example, would he still be a leader in a different situation where he didn't have the skill set and background knowledge?

[thefooloftheyear]

I don't watch football,so I don't really know who either of these two guys are.

That being said,that leadership is situational.Do you think if Mr.Brady was put into an environment where a football related skillet wasn't useful that he would be a leader? Say, for example, would he still be a leader in a different situation where he didn't have the skill set and background knowledge?

 

It would be hard to answer that question or have this discussion, as it would really be dependent on you having the same insight as I do(not your fault, btw)...

 

But yes, I do believe he would...For the exact same reason I mentioned in the previous post...He'll go down as one of the best(maybe the best ever) at the position, despite not having the raw skills for the position...Shockingly, when he was drafted, a whopping 200 players were drafted before him....Think about that for a minute...Arguably the greatest player at his position wasn't even considered better than 200 players that came into the league the same year he did..

 

So you see, he didn't even have the "skill set" you are talking about....At least not near the level of some of his peers that didn't have a fraction of the success he has had...

 

I just don't buy the situational or environment theory...I saw something recently about a prominent political leader here and it went on to show how this guy was his HS Class President...And you see this all the time...Its not situational...There is an inherent quality that just separates them from everyone else..

 

TFY