Would this bother you?

[vanhalenfan]

I never really understood the "no snooping/looking" when you suspect something. You know if you outright ASKED if something was going on, you will not get an honest answer. How else can you be sure? When one "snoops" for the reason to see if there is infidelity happening, the snooper is not looking at anything else besides that evidence. There is no so-called "invasion of privacy"....Privacy from cheating behaviors? I am not rifling through his bank account trying to steal money, or looking at what he's up to posting Happy Birthday to Uncle Brian on Facebook or his texting conversation between him and his mother or best friend..I am looking specifically at something. I am looking at those specific emails and and texts between him and her and nothing else. And from what I am seeing, I feel I have every right to if I am considering entering into marriage with this man.

Edited December 4, 2016 by vanhalenfan

[aileD]

It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. It doesn't matter if you're overreacting.

 

It bothers you because of your husbands past actions which he isn't respecting his part in why you are feeling this way.

 

He is stuck on the defense. Did you go to therapy? Did he read anything about helping your betrayed spouse move past your affair?

 

I know for a fact, three months out of a really horrendus affair, that my husbands response to me had we been in the same situation would be: "I disagree that I'm being too friendly (or whatever) butt understand if it makes you uncomfortable and will pass off this client to another person/have someone else deal with client/etc"

 

The real problem is that he's not understanding why you would feel this way. He's owning st you from the standpoint of a man with no history of cheating. He's not that man. Therefore your uncomfortableness is acceptable and appropriate and he just has to live with it.

 

I don't think he's doing anything.....but I think you guys should do some more work in marriage therapy or affair recovery programs

[LivingWaterPlease]

More talking last night. Not much else to say. I started off saying I felt justfied in my actions given the past. He doesn't really agree. He is holding strong that it was nothing, not even flirting. Gaslighting me, maybe. I'm not sure. He's still being wide open regarding devices and such...He asked why I believe he's hidng something or that this means anything when he leaves everything open for me to see. He doesn't advocate looking through others accounts and such but he leaves it all open anyway. He wrote those emails with me standing right there as well, so he is wondering why I think he's in the wrong. (Well, the foot email I wasn't quite right behind him but I was in the room. The other email that was questionable to me he knew I was reading next to him. He wrote "Ahhhh! That's me working my magic! lol" (in response to a question she asked as to why an image was showing up automatically on her webpage).

 

Then at the end of the argument/conversation he had admitted he sometimes says the inappropriate remark here and there but he's just trying to build his business and whatnot. I didn't care for that so much but he was pretty much finished with talking about it and getting frustrated with my many questions and remarks. It was almost 2am and we had to wake up at 7am.

 

Also last night (before the second argument), we were watching a movie and he got up and said he had to write a quick email to "a client" because he was unable to get work done promised today. He usually tells me his business and he normally would have said a name, not "a client". Well, I decided given the circumstances to check on who it was and it was her. But the email was very generic and professional. I guess given the arguments we were having last night about emailing her he didn't want to bring up that he had to email her. I understand I guess. At least the email was completely professional.

 

I don't know who is right and who is wrong here. I feel slighted...That's how i feel and I can't help that. I don't know if that's normal or if I am overreacting.

 

Vanhalenfan, I agree with your position on the above. However, it seems to me you have a different idea of what constitutes appropriate behavior while doing business than you fiance does. It seems to me he very well may not even be aware of his less than firm boundaries.

 

He made a comment about working magic that was followed by lol. What I notice is whether in business or socially a person who laughs after a statement, and especially laughs after a lot of statements they make in a convo, is a little insecure in some aspect of their being unless the comment is meant to be humorous.

 

From all you're writing it seems your fiance is not yet established in his business. He may be somewhat immature and unsure of himself, too, hence these comments he's making that seem overly friendly in a professional setting. Seems his overly friendly comments may be an attempt to portray an amiable demeanor and he's overdoing it without realizing it.

 

That being said, you may need to ask yourself if it's a deal breaker or not because I don't believe you're going to be able to follow him around and monitor all of his dealings with his clients. And at this point it seems to me he's somewhat clueless as to what constitutes professional behavior. He probably doesn't even realize what it is you're trying to convey. And I can see where he may even think you're being jealous.

 

For me, it wouldn't be so much a matter of jealousy as it would be I'd want my fiance to be confident and secure enough in himself professionally that he would keep strong boundaries.

 

Too bad he can't take some kind of seminar in appropriate work place behavior.

Edited December 4, 2016 by LivingWaterPlease

[Jump Through Loops]

I use the wink emoticon a fair bit regardless who the recipient is, male or female. I've never once considered it to be flirting when the recipient was a Woman. The woman made a lighthearted comment and he therefore replied in kind and used the emoticon to emphasise the lightheartedness.

 

However, if she turns out to be hot, then that would be different story...

[vanhalenfan]

Jump - I wouldn't say hot, but decent looking for her age. She's older....59 or 60 years old. But she looks younger and lives a very healthy lifestyle. My fiance is 51. Well it seems you are in the minority here...lol...I wouldn't say he uses the winky face too much though. He has and does but sparingly.

[Mr. Lucky]

She said he did... had an emotional affair with an ex that she only found out about 3 months ago.

 

I stand corrected. Thanks...

 

Mr. Lucky

[road]

I'm a former WW. I do not care if he snoops. Why is this such as issue for some people?

 

Those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

[OatsAndHall]

Honestly, I have never felt that "snooping" is okay in any shape or form. And, no, my significant others' will not have access to my email or Facebook accounts. A person does have a right to some level of privacy within a relationship: everything is not an open book.

 

Right now, I have a friend that is going through a rough patch in his life and he and I message back and forth about it on Facebook and through email. He is sharing personal information with me that no one else will see, period. And, no one else has the right to see it.

 

Honestly, vanhalen, you forgave him for his emotional affair, so just find it in yourself to move on with your life with him. He hasn't done anything out of line with this woman, especially if she's a client. Her talking about her feet with a smiley face is a world away from a torrid love affair.. The relationship will probably fold if you keep pressing the issue. I would be extremely upset if I found out that a significant other went through any of my emails of Facebook, for the reasons I described above.

 

Yes, moving past an infidelity is difficult, I know first hand. I have been screwed around by a fiance and a wife and those trust issues are hard to work past. I don't really know if I've even worked through them completely. But, you won't be successful in any relationship until you do. I imagine you will strongly regret losing your relationship over this.

[ShatteredLady]

 

The emails were all work related, but then there was one picture she sent of an indentation of her foot in the sand she wanted to use for her website. She asked about photo quality for the site and then said, "Isn't my foot just lovely? haha" Then he responds, "Yes, you're foot is very lovely ;)" (Yes that is a winky face)

.

 

So the photograph was an example of what she wanted to use on her site & it was set to him for his advise on suitability? His response should have been furthering the conversation on the actual "quality" & "suitability" of the image NOT how attractive he found the body part!

 

That's just business advise!! You can be professional & warm without crossing any boundaries in my opinion.

 

I wish I'd stopped to discuss how we were going to treat business dealings with members of the opposite sex BEFORE we married. We had been living together for 6 years before our big day & thought that we knew everything at the time.

 

I met my husband young, just after my 21st birthday. I'd had a couple of "bad boy" boyfriends (who NEVER did anything disrespectful to me) before I met my H who was generally thought of as 'The nicest guy ever!'.

 

Snooping? It's only ever crossed my mind to snoop 3 times in my life & each time my gut was totally, completely & utterly correct!

 

You say that you had knowledge of his infidelity just 3 months earlier. I believe that that alone gives you a justification to look into his correspondence. I always advise people to trust their instincts & their partner until proven otherwise. He has shown himself to have bad control & boundaries.

 

I wouldn't feel safe committing to marriage with a man who has proven himself to be less than trustworthy until we had done some serious work on what you expect from him in these situations.

 

If you can't comfortably have the hard talks AND reach agreement you should NOT get married!!

 

Most important advise?? 'Know yourself'. If you do have tendencies to falsely see betrayal where none exists you need to do a lot of work on yourself before you 'give' yourself in marriage.

 

There would be a lot less divorce if people put in the work BEFORE they married!

 

Best Wishes.

[Jump Through Loops]

I use the wink emoticon a fair bit regardless who the recipient is, male or female. I've never once considered it to be flirting when the recipient was a Woman. The woman made a lighthearted comment and he therefore replied in kind and used the emoticon to emphasise the lightheartedness.

 

However, if she turns out to be hot, then that would be different story...

 

Jump - I wouldn't say hot, but decent looking for her age. She's older....59 or 60 years old. But she looks younger and lives a very healthy lifestyle. My fiance is 51. Well it seems you are in the minority here...lol...I wouldn't say he uses the winky face too much though. He has and does but sparingly.

 

I was joking with my last comment, I was attempting to be lighthearted, I was contradicting myself, not flirting as you see a wink emoticon to be. He's in IT, he's also old skool and should therefore understand the original use of the wink emoticon, thus using it in its original context. You and many others obviously don't...lol...

[Lady2163]

I'm a former WW. I do not care if he snoops. Why is this such as issue for some people?

 

I'm a former OW and I've been single a long time. I'm pretty fussy about sharing my phone and tablet. But, it hit me a while ago....when I was with MM I never cared if he looked at either, but I wouldn't allow anyone else - in case there was something incriminating from him.

 

I'd say I'm fussy now because I just don't want my tabs screwed up or deleted. Which seems to happen no matter the age of the borrower.

 

OP, you're planning to spend the rest of your life with this man. If he's 51, I'm guessing you're over 35. You only have so many chances to accuse him. Other posters have said this: you really need to be certain this is or is not a deal breaker. If you don't trust him, why spend your life miserable?

[BoaConstrictor]

I never really understood the "no snooping/looking" when you suspect something. You know if you outright ASKED if something was going on, you will not get an honest answer. How else can you be sure? When one "snoops" for the reason to see if there is infidelity happening, the snooper is not looking at anything else besides that evidence. There is no so-called "invasion of privacy"....Privacy from cheating behaviors? I am not rifling through his bank account trying to steal money, or looking at what he's up to posting Happy Birthday to Uncle Brian on Facebook or his texting conversation between him and his mother or best friend..I am looking specifically at something. I am looking at those specific emails and and texts between him and her and nothing else. And from what I am seeing, I feel I have every right to if I am considering entering into marriage with this man.

 

This is a rather idealistic view of snooping. I imagine it is far more likely to spiral. If you went to his private e-mail and there was an e-mail to Uncle Brian with you as the subject line, are you honestly telling me that you wouldn't read that e-mail? Come on now. Be honest. The can of snooping worms has already been opened; human nature says you are going to read that e-mail.

 

If I were your fiance, I would run the other direction if I read this justification of snooping TBH. Just because you're engaged to a person doesn't mean you have a right to violate their privacy. Just because someone had an EA in the past that you two worked through doesn't give you carte blanche in the future to violate their privacy. And that's what you're doing, even if you are "only" looking at a discreet amount of correspondence.

 

How far are you willing to take this? What about the next female client he has? What if she's hot? Does her hotness give you a right to read all their e-mails and texts as well?

[vanhalenfan]

This is a rather idealistic view of snooping. I imagine it is far more likely to spiral. If you went to his private e-mail and there was an e-mail to Uncle Brian with you as the subject line, are you honestly telling me that you wouldn't read that e-mail? Come on now. Be honest. The can of snooping worms has already been opened; human nature says you are going to read that e-mail.

 

If I were your fiance, I would run the other direction if I read this justification of snooping TBH. Just because you're engaged to a person doesn't mean you have a right to violate their privacy. Just because someone had an EA in the past that you two worked through doesn't give you carte blanche in the future to violate their privacy. And that's what you're doing, even if you are "only" looking at a discreet amount of correspondence.

 

How far are you willing to take this? What about the next female client he has? What if she's hot? Does her hotness give you a right to read all their e-mails and texts as well?

 

Yes, I wonder myself how far I will go with it. I don't want to go further. I really want to stop. I think it's harming the relationship as I have brought up true nonsense before and it caused a lot of damage. I took to LS this time because this seemed to be a significant instance of improper communication, but maybe I am wrong. I am still trying to figure if it's significant or not. My POV is really skewed now. I don't trust my gut instincts. Still, most here seem to think this is a red flag. There were only a few outliers here who disagreed.

[vanhalenfan]

Also, my fiance is very outgoing and sociable. He jokes around A LOT, very sarcastic. But he is also insecure. In person I can see him saying this as a joke to her or anyone...And I wouldn't bat an eyelash. Is it different in email though? Tone and all is lost.

[katielee]

He had an affair. He doesn't get to refer to another woman's body part as lovely anymore.

[vanhalenfan]

This is a rather idealistic view of snooping. I imagine it is far more likely to spiral. If you went to his private e-mail and there was an e-mail to Uncle Brian with you as the subject line, are you honestly telling me that you wouldn't read that e-mail? Come on now. Be honest. The can of snooping worms has already been opened; human nature says you are going to read that e-mail.

 

Forgot to answer this!

 

I see your point about snooping and how it can get out of control. Yes I will be honest and say if I saw an email with my name in the subject line I would take a look, for sure. When my snooping was at it's worse months ago (yes I have gotten better), I was looking every where for anything because I felt something was up, but didn't know where or who. Now, I have a lot more control and this time around I have only been looking at this women's emails and texts thus far without seeking out anything else.

[PrincessWarrior1]

As someone who is a little insecure myself at times. I don't know. I know one poster said "jealousy is ugly" and that is very true. But I also think there is a degree of respect in a relationship. Things are different nowadays as opposed to before technology making it even easier to cheat and be sneaky about it. I definitely would not be in a hurry to marry this guy. I also would be working on myself and my issues and I actually am. But I also firmly believe there is instances where people's behaviors are not so loving and can cause you to become insecure. And your gut maybe telling you something therefore.. you "snooped" or I'd rather call in investigating my suspicions. People can do all types of things to other people. Ever heard of gaslighting? Yeah I've definitely been doing probably the most reading I have ever done in my entire life over this last relationship of mine.

 

You want to laugh? I posted or commented something on Reddit-Relationships one time and must have rubbed someone the wrong way and we got into it. He or she kept telling me I need therapy. And I argued my point and asked them to please stop telling me I need therapy. They went through like all my posts and went back to an old one and I got a red message indicator, clicked on it, it said: "therapy" just the one word.. LOL

 

Anyway I hope I cheered you up. That is a tough one though especially if you have been abused in the past or in your childhood. And the fact that you have security issues is not your fault. Everything can be worked on is the good news. We can love ourselves, be kind to ourselves, raise our self esteem, etc. But if the other person is a straight out abuser or cheater than you have to walk away because there is no getting out of it if you don't. They just keep doing it.

 

All in all though after reading your last post. I wanted to say that just the fact that you have access to be even able to "snoop" I don't really like that word, lol however, he would be locking his phone or have other behaviors if there was something really bad to worry about IMHO.

Edited December 5, 2016 by PrincessWarrior1

[Miss Clavel]

She flirted. He is right that there really isn't much that he could have said to her, his client when she was fishing for compliments. However, the winky face was flirting back and since he has cheated on you I do recommend "not just friends" and you reevaluate your future marriage.

 

You need to be able to trust your spouse. Snooping will drive you mad. Reading into things will drive you mad. Becoming paranoid will drive you mad.

 

You aren't married yet. Just don't rush in.

 

uh, couldn't he have said, "i'm the wrong person to ask, sorry"?

[LivingWaterPlease]

Also, my fiance is very outgoing and sociable. He jokes around A LOT, very sarcastic. But he is also insecure. In person I can see him saying this as a joke to her or anyone...And I wouldn't bat an eyelash. Is it different in email though? Tone and all is lost.

 

 

In the above you made the point I pinpointed in my earlier post which is the crux of the matter:

 

Your fiance is insecure. Insecurity is a basic component of the personalities of a great percentage of people who get into affairs.

 

A person feels insecure, they fish for compliments and gravitate to people who give them, get compliments that feel great and assuage their feelings (the compliments don't alleviate the insecurity, they just mask insecure feelings momentarily) of insecurity for a short time. Then this type of exchange sets the two people who are interacting in it up to allow it to progress into more compliments that may possibly lead to an affair, which it may or may not depending on many variables. This is not to say that all insecure people are going to have affairs. It's just that it is often a precursor to affairs. There are people who are insecure who have too much integrity to have an affair and will deal with their insecurity in other ways.

 

You either need to accept you're with an insecure person, which comes with it's own set of a myriad of problems, of which inappropriate behavior with the opposite sex is only one of the problems you'll deal with, with him in a long term relationship.

 

As to the debate on whether to snoop or not, each person must decide for him/herself what they can live with, with integrity.

 

In your case before proceeding with a marriage, I'd take this to a relationship counselor because it is a serious issue. If he won't go with you, I would go by myself and work through it to at least decide how you're going to handle it. Ideally he'll go with you but from what you've written of him it seems possible to me he won't feel the need and will think you're overreacting.

 

I don't believe the angst you're feeling about this issue is going to go away without some work and will only cause deeper problems in your relationship as time goes on if it's not addressed intentionally with someone who can help you. And I do believe your concern about this issue with him is warranted.

Edited December 5, 2016 by LivingWaterPlease

[Noirek]

uh, couldn't he have said, "i'm the wrong person to ask, sorry"?

 

With a friend (though the whol picture thing would then just be weird) maybe. But with a client that would be to cold and rude. A yes and no winky face would just be a moving on and whatever type response. You asked, i don't care but i agree.

 

In fact. I'm the wrong person to ask could almost be a "hard to get" action and actually open the door for more conversation such as "why is that?"

 

"Because I'm married"

 

"Oh is your wife the jealous type..."

 

Of course we could come up with a whole script of what he should say. And the more controlling BS would want him to have it memorized. But thats not life. And simply put there was nothing and is nothing even from a ws in a sinple yes and ending the conversation.

 

I still believe the winky face, specially since he uses it sparingly, was flirting back. And since he has recently cheated he should be more aware of his actions. But he may feel since he ended the whole thing it wasn't that bad and it was "only an ea".

 

I still think that the OPs level of insecurity and mistrust does not bode well for marriage and she needs to reconsider this. I didn't realize her age and that may be a factor to her descision to work on it. Still, having to constantly check on a spouse is draining. I'd rather be single.

[merrmeade]

Now, WAIT a minute...

 

Thread title is "Would this bother you?" referring specifically to the fiancé's email about the lady's foot photo question. The background/history was later amended to include the all-important connection - for the OP - with the fiancé's past infidelity. Whether EA or PA, doesn't matter; the SO was left with the trauma of betrayal. Transparency should have been an essential aspect of the unfaithful partner's effort to regain trust. The betrayed partner should not have to resort to "snooping."

 

All this discussion about the ethics of OP's self-identified "snooping" has been, not only misdirected, but unnecessarily judgmental of OP's predicament. OP even joined the thread hijack and felt the need to defend her actions. Enough already! She needs help understanding that she has every right to want to feel safe with this person and it's on HIM to prove to her that he is.

 

So "snooping," my a-s! Get off her case and instead encourage her to demand openness, sensitivity and consideration from her would-be partner. She should not be defensive about her need to trust him or advised to run away without insisting that they deal with this problem they're pretending never happened. In fact, she mentioned the infidelity as an afterthought following her apologetic intro about reading his emails.

 

OP, I agree that you should not have lowered yourself to snooping to get the reassurance you need and deserve because you should already have had his permission and encouragement to read whatever you need to read whenever you want. When I gave my example, I didn't realize that not everyone understands the necessity for transparency and how it works when couples are working together to recover from infidelity. My husband is no model for reconciliation, but he had ZERO problem with this aspect. Therapists articulated this for us, and we read it. It was a given in the beginning but eventually dropped off until the recent situation, which I discussed here and with him and upset him more because I thought him still capable of flirting. His comment about the transparency is always a matter-of-fact "I have nothing to hide," and the word "snooping" isn't in our vocabulary.

 

The question is not your right to read his stuff. It is what's his obligation to you? Even more basic, why haven't you talked about this already? What have you done together to understand and deal with the impact on your relationship of his cheating? What has he done to show you that he regrets having engaged emotionally with another woman behind your back? What is he willing to do to regain your trust? You should not be tiptoeing around him afraid of his reactions but asking him to understand and acknowledge the damage to you. He has to work to prove himself so that you can let go of the need to check. This work should have started whenever the infidelity was discovered and he (I hope!) apologized, but it's not too late.

 

My take on everything is inexperience and naïveté on both your parts relative to what you each needed to do to get past his infidelity and what you need to discuss and understand in order to have a long-term relationship of mutual trust and respect. Instead, it appears to me you were expected to forgive and forget and hope for the best.

 

Start reading. Go to couples counseling. But if he doesn't step up to this plate, I agree that formalizing your unwieldy union is foolhardy.

Edited December 5, 2016 by merrmeade

[Noirek]

I agree mermeade on the whole idea of "snooping" in a marriage. While i understand there are very private people. In fact my phone has a passcode and i dont like the idea of just anyone looking through it. I have always kept my phone facedown too since having one and my texts do not come up on my home screen, ever. But when it comes to my husband we have never (pre affair, during or after) locked down our email or phones from each other (our passwords are shared, it just slowly happened to make life easier). There just is no reason to. There is nothing said that shouldn't be said to each other.

 

My advice to consider not being in a relationship that breeds insecurity and mistrust wasn't because i felt her snooping was wrong... but because I've seen how unhealthy it is long term. And since she isn't married and hasn't married kids, the reality is she could very well feel this way with him forever. This woman was not the EA woman. When she is gone there may be a new woman. He doesn't get his behaviour. She can't change him. Ultimatiums usually just cause people to pretend and she may not feel safe anyways if it comes to that. For her own peace of mind she should consider moving on. If they were married with a long time advice of course changes to that.

[merrmeade]

He doesn't get his behaviour. She can't change him. Ultimatiums usually just cause people to pretend and she may not feel safe anyways if it comes to that. For her own peace of mind she should consider moving on. If they were married with a long time advice of course changes to that.

Yes, I'm afraid he probably doesn't get it as well. I just was hoping she would realize that it's the other way around - he should be worried about what she'll do and knock himself out to keep her (after the EA). But it's probably too late and she should cut her losses and go. Sorry.

[road]

He had an affair. He doesn't get to refer to another woman's body part as lovely anymore.

 

 

 

Wait a minute. He already had an affair. Run, Forest, Run. Dating is the job interview for marriage. He has failed the interview.

 

 

When someone is suspected to be up to doing something wrong it is not snooping or invading privacy. It is protecting yourself by investigating. It is everyone's right to protect themselves.

 

 

Years, well decades dealing with this topic an OP's gut feelings are never wrong.

[vanhalenfan]

I'm really still unsure what to do. We had a small discussion last night over dinner...The topic is getting exhausted as he is tired of the accusations and quite possibly I'm not handling this properly or using good communication. I want to believe his intentions were friendly/joking/humorous and that I am looking at this with a stigma of some sort....That's what he said last night. That I am always going to have a stigma about him because I always think he's up to no good when it comes to his friendships and interactions with the opposite sex. I admit I have been a bit neurotic over the past few months and I had been making false accusations and overthinking everything, and watching him too closely as well and he's just really had it. So now, this happens, and I don't even know what to think...If I am looking at this the wrong way, with a jaded eye perhaps.

 

He asked if it's neccesary for him to be completely straight-laced at all times with clients, even the clients that are friends as well (like her), and why is it not okay to joke around sometimes? He said it with an angry undertone, like resentment because I'm not allowing him to joke around without judgement.

 

He always emphasized that the comment wasn't on her actual foot, it was a footprint in the sand...not that that really changes things. He mentioned it because I said he complimented a "women's body part" with a winky face.

 

Hmm, I don't know. I don't know what to think

Edited December 5, 2016 by vanhalenfan