I'm still unfortunate.

[ZA Dater]

Reading through this thread made me think.

 

People say "oh they are superficial", frankly this to me is misguided. Everyone is superficial you don't suddenly become un superficial.

 

Chances are the lack of success are due to the fact the OP doesn't fit in in some way, his interests don't tie in with what girls like or what society deems a 23yo should like or how he should behave.

 

Personally I believe the only thing that really matters is how you feel about yourself and that to a lesser or greater extent is influenced by others and your interactions with them. Do you feel good around the people you socialise with?

 

Find something to distract yourself from dating, my experiences suggests thinking about it wont improve your odds and quite possibly you will just feel worse. Alternatively you can adopt the "I don't give a F attitude"

[CommittedToThis]

Both were utter nutjobs

 

Hi Lightwave93,

 

You have a history of attracting "crazy" women; could it be a reflection of your self-esteem issues? People with low self-esteem generally attract predator or personality disordered types.

 

Just wracking my brains trying to figure out what to tell you.

 

It would seem, for all practical purposes, you are the perfect man.

[LightWave93]

Posting a temp link to photos again; Forum - Album on Imgur

 

Chances are the lack of success are due to the fact the OP doesn't fit in in some way, his interests don't tie in with what girls like or what society deems a 23yo should like or how he should behave.

 

There was a time that I would have agreed with you, but thinking just now; what exactly don't I do that people my age consider interesting?

 

Travel? Check.

Drinking/Partying/Bar/Clubbing? Check.

Concerts? Check.

 

Literally only thing I don't do what is "typical" of a university student is smoke, drugs or have sex.

 

Personally I believe the only thing that really matters is how you feel about yourself and that to a lesser or greater extent is influenced by others and your interactions with them. Do you feel good around the people you socialise with?

 

Sure. I mean I wouldn't be working the jobs I do if I wasn't good with people. I recently received recognition from two separate establishments for my dedication to the roles I take.

 

Find something to distract yourself from dating, my experiences suggests thinking about it wont improve your odds and quite possibly you will just feel worse. Alternatively you can adopt the "I don't give a F attitude"

 

I spent from around October last year to May this year asking on forums, dating coach etc about why I lacked any success. Gave up by taking down all my profiles and avoiding talking about the subject from June up until now. I think I've taken a reasonable break, considering my days at university are numbered.

 

Quite frankly at this stage I'm just prepared to give up and pass myself off as a lost cause. I've already promised myself I won't date past the age of 25 because no way am I settling for second, third, forth etc best or being a beta provider for someone else's child. If women can't recognize my value now, then I sure as hell am not letting them have a piece of me when my value suddenly increases when I have a solid career, house, car etc (ironic how I work harder and go out more than most students and still don't get any luck ).

 

It would seem, for all practical purposes, you are the perfect man.

 

Ha. Hardly.

[clia]

If you are truly getting no matches at all on Tinder and no replies to your OLD messages, you may be going for women who are "out of your league" based on looks.

 

When you meet women in person, do you ask for their number and ask them out on dates? What about asking one of your friends to set you up with someone?

[LightWave93]

If you are truly getting no matches at all on Tinder and no replies to your OLD messages, you may be going for women who are "out of your league" based on looks.

 

Tinder I literally just swiped right on. 50 mile radius. Nothing. I even had Tinder Plus for a while so I could swipe right for like half an hour at a time.

 

When you meet women in person, do you ask for their number and ask them out on dates?

 

I don't really meet women though, despite all that I do. I have never met a woman at a bar or club, not once. At a party maybe I'll talk to one or two but it never goes anywhere, a few minutes conversation tops, and I never receive a request from FB etc. 'n yes, I do send them out occasionally, but now-a-days I just don't bother as it's a waste of time.

 

I had an influx of people add me at the start of the New Year as it's part of my job to interact with students, as well as having met a few girls at a society event which was predominately female (I say predominately, I'm the only Male who attends). Since then, nothing.

 

What about asking one of your friends to set you up with someone?

 

I have done, they don't help.

[SwordofFlame]

I have done, they don't help.

 

Are your friends in relationships? Or are they struggling romantically just as much as you are?

[LightWave93]

Are your friends in relationships? Or are they struggling romantically just as much as you are?

 

Some are, some aren't.

 

A lot of my male friends either have partners or have good fortune with the dating scene. A good majority of those fortunate mates have double digit sexual partners, and they're younger than me (and, I would argue, less attractive and...believe it or not...less confident). Without trying to sound judgmental, I would also say the female friends they do hang out with are more attractive than those I bond with.

 

Also, for the record, these guys say I'm doing nothing wrong.

[Weezy1973]

OP, I suspect you struggle with some sort of social anxiety. And likely low self-worth. I'm guessing you're a perfectionist, which is a sure sign of low self worth. From how you describe yourself, you're the "perfect" catch; attractive, educated, good personality, hard working, does volunteering etc. Yet somehow, you think no woman ever has any interest in you.

 

Well - how many random women are you getting to know? How can they like you if they don't know you? Women don't just throw themselves at men. If you aren't meeting any women when you got to bars and clubs it's because YOU'RE not meeting any women. You aren't going up and introducing yourself and having a conversation to get to know them. You aren't asking them out on dates.

 

You can't say you're not having any success if you're not asking any women out on dates. I'm guessing you're so afraid of rejection that the fear paralyzes you. What you want are clear and definite signals that a woman will say yes!

 

Well that doesn't really happen. You go and talk to a woman, see if you have some stuff in common; see if she laughs at your jokes and you share a similar sense of humour. If there's some chemistry ask her out!

 

But you're not doing that are you...

Edited December 19, 2016 by Weezy1973

[LightWave93]

OP, I suspect you struggle with some sort of social anxiety.

 

I did address in my OP that I have depression, but I did forget to mention anxiety (that so often go hand-in-hand I forget to mention either one).

 

I do and I don't, by which I mean I *did* have crippling social anxiety but through time and effort I managed to overcome it. Volunteering, parties, clubbing, hell even uni itself...non of which I would have took part in just a few years ago. Now I would argue I'm one of the more social people I know. Literally nothing stops me. I've gone from scared of everything to fearful of nothing. I just go out and do.

 

Also, a bit of a comparison, but I know people with far worse anxiety/depression than I ever have had, and they have partners/get dates/have sex.

 

From how you describe yourself, you're the "perfect" catch; attractive, educated, good personality, hard working, does volunteering etc. Yet somehow, you think no woman ever has any interest in you.

 

At the end of the day I can only go by what people have told me. I wish I was a complete dick and then at least we'd have somewhere to go from. Fact of the matter is, all these positive attributes are what I've been reassured of time and time again since doing this research of me (and yes, I knew I had positive attributes beforehand).

 

Yet the fact remains, women are overwhelmingly not interested in me. Yes I've had one long-term and one brief fling, but at my age and in my environment two girls being interested during my 23 years on this planet isn't exactly amazing.

 

Well - how many random women are you getting to know? How can they like you if they don't know you?

 

Whenever I have opportunity to I talk to a new woman, be it at work, volunteering, activities, parties etc. Just a few examples;

 

- I attended a workshop not long ago for an award I'm doing, and I sat next to two girls. Everyone was quite quiet and shy, but I managed to ease the tension by making them both laugh and engaging in conversation.

 

- Same thing happened at a meeting I attended.

 

- I spoke to a handful of girls during my work shift (I help students with technology), and some I'm quite close with (albeit friends, just using this to highlight I do approach for conversation).

 

- There's a girl who works in the same position as me at the uni. We never had to meet, but we've met up twice (my initiation) to discuss work and just have a general chat.

 

That's not even to mention the amount of times I've tried to get a girls number and/or coffee date, mostly during last year. Since the new academic year (September) I haven't even bothered, it's literally a waste of time.

 

So, I have and do tried. I'm not scared of women, and I make an effort. However, they do not make an effort with me whatsoever, I can tell you for no uncertain fact that there is not a woman in my life at this moment who is interested in me, and I can promise you that I have been very observant when I am out and not one woman glances in my direction. Dating sites and Tinder are a load of crap, despite everyone's assertion that I should have "no problems with them whatsoever".

 

Women don't just throw themselves at men.

 

They will generally, however, show some sign of interest. Wanting to make conversation, smiling, or even just eye contact...non of which I receive.

Edited December 19, 2016 by LightWave93

[thecrucible]

To be fair, as much as I appreciate your post it can be summarized as "I'm a woman and I have more opportunities presented to me".

 

Us men aren't so lucky.

 

You're really not getting what I'm saying at all. It sounds like you secretly dislike women for not giving you attention. It's that kind of attitude that is really a bit of a turn off (my tone here is joking not catty btw. I'm a pretty nice person).

 

I mean take me. I'm average looking and I pack a few pounds. I don't have the best luck in the world with men. I'm never going to turn heads and be the most gorgeous woman in the room. But this has been my life since High School so I don't actually feel sad about it. I just take what I can get and usually I do end up dating guys I feel attracted to. My looks are probably a lot like Janina Ramirez. That's no disservice to her. I think she's absolutely amazing!

 

You're assuming I'm sitting here on some pedestal. I'm totally not. My weight has fluctuated by up to 4 stone. I can tell you that while obviously the better looking you are the more attention you get, over the years I've learned that a person's presence and personality counts for a lot me than I've realised. Everyone is their harshest critic.

 

I've had really rubbish luck with men sometimes. And even when I've had more opportunities presented to me, it doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter because the quality of those opportunities wasn't up to much. I've been a lot thinner than I am now and I had more men approach me on nights out (but still not tonnes) but they were usually only after one thing (you can just tell when you're a warm body to them or you could be any woman to them). I've been single for 5 years for a reason.

 

But let's get back to you. Being this pessimistic isn't doing you any favours. I'm not saying not to be realistic at all either. I just think you should get some more energy and fun in the mix.

 

Also I've noticed that you're worried that you know guys who are getting sex with lots of women. I mean maybe I don't understand but why do you want to be one of those 'every hole is a goal' kind of guys? That doesn't make a man more attractive to me as far as I'm concerned. I had a rather attractive male friend (no interest as he was married when I knew him) and he'd only been with one woman. He did have more women who liked him and I reckon this was because of his self-assuredness (not arrogance though). He had an attractive kind of masculinity, no machismo.

[thecrucible]

That's not even to mention the amount of times I've tried to get a girls number and/or coffee date, mostly during last year. Since the new academic year (September) I haven't even bothered, it's literally a waste of time.

 

Please don't give up! How do you go about asking them? You could catch them in the moment - like after an event and you've been chatting to them, you can ask them 'fancy going for a drink after the show?' or something. That way it's like you're going with the flow and you can flirt away when you're alone with them. But you'd have to put out some moves quickly so intention is clear from the get go and there's no misunderstanding.

 

I can recall a time I had a first kiss with a guy I later fell in love with. We were on a picnic with friends and we'd kind of been flirting a bit all the time but nothing had happened. Then I had to go indoors to get something I'd left inside and he said he'd come help me find it. Next thing I know he has me in an embrace and the rest was history. I think he'd been leading up to that by testing me at other times like putting his arm around me to see how I'd react so he knew I was happy with the escalation before he took the risk. I mean you could do this with girls you like in your group - get them alone and try and get closer to them. You can always play it off in a jokey way if doesn't go totally to plan.

 

Anyway that guy above I dated for a year and we never actually went on a date as such before we became boyfriend and girlfriend. So dates and numbers aren't the be all and end all. He didn't even have my number until after we started dating.

[normal person]

Yet the fact remains, women are overwhelmingly not interested in me. Yes I've had one long-term and one brief fling, but at my age and in my environment two girls being interested during my 23 years on this planet isn't exactly amazing.

 

Just being honest here, if you've only had 2 girls in your whole life be at all interested in you, likely your looks are being overestimated. Girls ages 13-23 are typically looks-obsessed. If you're attractive, you've been told so many, many times in your life by age 23. People who are attractive don't have to go on message boards to qualify it with things like "I've been called 'handsome' a few times before." Simply put, if you're attractive, you attract people. Ok, so what if you're not? It's not the end of the world.

 

 

- I attended a workshop not long ago for an award I'm doing, and I sat next to two girls. Everyone was quite quiet and shy, but I managed to ease the tension by making them both laugh and engaging in conversation.

 

- Same thing happened at a meeting I attended.

 

- I spoke to a handful of girls during my work shift (I help students with technology), and some I'm quite close with (albeit friends, just using this to highlight I do approach for conversation).

 

- There's a girl who works in the same position as me at the uni. We never had to meet, but we've met up twice (my initiation) to discuss work and just have a general chat.

 

That's not even to mention the amount of times I've tried to get a girls number and/or coffee date, mostly during last year.

 

Making people laugh is fantastic, but "general chat" and speaking people without any emotional engagement or bonding, like just talking about work or school, is just boring and empty, wasted, words. They could have those conversations with anyone. You have to flip an emotional switch in a girl's head and form a connection or bond with her. You have to pique interest. Demonstrate some opinions, passions, things you like about her, etc. Just "talking" is absolutely mindless. It can even backfire and make you seem boring.

 

There was a time that I would have agreed with you, but thinking just now; what exactly don't I do that people my age consider interesting?

 

Travel? Check.

Drinking/Partying/Bar/Clubbing? Check.

Concerts? Check.

 

These things don't necessarily make you interesting, they likely just keep you from falling too far out of step with everyone else. I can't envision a conversation where one girl says to her friend:

"So what do you think of LightWave93?"

"Meh. He's nice, I guess."

"Well did you know that he goes to concerts?"

"What?! Really? Why have you been keeping this from me? Do you have his number?"

 

So, not as big a deal as you might think. In my eyes, at least.

 

 

Quite frankly at this stage I'm just prepared to give up and pass myself off as a lost cause. I've already promised myself I won't date past the age of 25

 

If you're still single, I guarantee you will, or at least try.

 

because no way am I settling for second, third, forth etc best

 

To assume that anyone single past the age of 25 is someone to be "settled for" is ridiculous, and if that sort of judgment and understanding of the dating landscape is indicative of the way you think and how you operate, I'm not at all surprised that women aren't interested in you. Smart, focused, people who possess foresight are often the ones single into their 30s because they're aware of the things they want in a partner and don't want to make brash, uninformed, impulsive decisions that can ruin the rest of their lives. Desirable people stay single into that age because they don't want to settle, not because no one settled for them.

 

or being a beta provider for someone else's child.

 

I can totally understand not wanting to provide for someone else's child, but there are plenty of childless, never-married, desirable, 25 year olds. C'mon.

 

If women can't recognize my value now,

 

How is something's "value" typically determined? By whatever someone will pay for it -- or in the case of a man, how badly women want to be with him. You've made it pretty clear that most women have no interest you. Thus, no value. I'm sure you're a great guy and have plenty of valid reasons to be confident and have self worth, but don't conflate that with your apparent value to someone else. If no one's buying, that's a pretty good indicator of your value to them. And that's what matters to you right now because you desire those peoples' time and attention.

 

Look -- you're 23, still a student, and I'm guessing because of that, you don't have any real money or desirable resources yet. Take no offense, but that really isn't anything to write home about. After you graduate and move up the pay scale beyond entry level, you'll be generating some real resources (like money and respect). But right now, the only male college seniors with any value are the athletes who are going to be drafted to one of the big 4 leagues, or anyone else who's going to be making 6 figures right out of college. Any guy slightly older than you with a job already is more desirable and better equipped. It's nothing to do with you personally, but that's the way it is until you gain some ground in whatever it is you're going to do in life. Just like an unpaid intern, you're more or less expendable. You have to prove your value first.

 

then I sure as hell am not letting them have a piece of me when my value suddenly increases when I have a solid career, house, car etc (ironic how I work harder and go out more than most students and still don't get any luck ).

 

Get over it. People are superficial. Women value successful, ambitious, interesting, engaging, attractive, men who can provide for them. Sometimes you'll have to demonstrate that value if people don't give you the benefit of the doubt. Think about what you're saying here. You're a guy who doesn't appeal to women for whatever reason, eschewing women who might like you once they finally get a reason to -- that's childish. It's like you're an unappealing, overweight girl who no man desires, saying "All you guys better start asking me out now because when I get thin and beautiful, no way am I giving you the time of day." Let's not pretend that certain things like beauty and success don't appeal to peoples' most biological urges -- to survive and reproduce. Turning your nose up at people for valuing those things might make you feel like you're on some sort of high ground, but that's just going to isolate you further.

 

If women don't like you, then you need to give them more reasons to. Don't reprimand them for not liking you before you appeal to them the way they need to be appealed to. A doctor wouldn't treat a broken arm with Chickenpox vaccination and then get mad at the patient for not feeling better.

 

Obviously there might be some yet undiscovered issue with you now, or maybe you're just unlucky (for now), but if you stay on the path you're on and continue to work hard, and eventually get your respect/personality/money/house/car/whatever it all is that effectively demonstrates your value, it will be more noticeable, and more appealing. Superficial to an extent? Yes. But lots of women like to provided for, it's tied to biology and it's the reality of the situation. They need to know your worth and define it on their terms, not yours. If you can't accept that, then dating isn't for you because you'll inevitably just get angry and bitter at the process.

 

Best of luck.

[ZA Dater]

Just being honest here, if you've only had 2 girls in your whole life be at all interested in you, likely your looks are being overestimated. Girls ages 13-23 are typically looks-obsessed. If you're attractive, you've been told so many, many times in your life by age 23. People who are attractive don't have to go on message boards to qualify it with things like "I've been called 'handsome' a few times before." Simply put, if you're attractive, you attract people. Ok, so what if you're not? It's not the end of the world.

 

 

 

 

Making people laugh is fantastic, but "general chat" and speaking people without any emotional engagement or bonding, like just talking about work or school, is just boring and empty, wasted, words. They could have those conversations with anyone. You have to flip an emotional switch in a girl's head and form a connection or bond with her. You have to pique interest. Demonstrate some opinions, passions, things you like about her, etc. Just "talking" is absolutely mindless. It can even backfire and make you seem boring.

 

 

 

These things don't necessarily make you interesting, they likely just keep you from falling too far out of step with everyone else. I can't envision a conversation where one girl says to her friend:

"So what do you think of LightWave93?"

"Meh. He's nice, I guess."

"Well did you know that he goes to concerts?"

"What?! Really? Why have you been keeping this from me? Do you have his number?"

 

So, not as big a deal as you might think. In my eyes, at least.

 

 

 

 

If you're still single, I guarantee you will, or at least try.

 

 

 

To assume that anyone single past the age of 25 is someone to be "settled for" is ridiculous, and if that sort of judgment and understanding of the dating landscape is indicative of the way you think and how you operate, I'm not at all surprised that women aren't interested in you. Smart, focused, people who possess foresight are often the ones single into their 30s because they're aware of the things they want in a partner and don't want to make brash, uninformed, impulsive decisions that can ruin the rest of their lives. Desirable people stay single into that age because they don't want to settle, not because no one settled for them.

 

 

 

I can totally understand not wanting to provide for someone else's child, but there are plenty of childless, never-married, desirable, 25 year olds. C'mon.

 

 

 

How is something's "value" typically determined? By whatever someone will pay for it -- or in the case of a man, how badly women want to be with him. You've made it pretty clear that most women have no interest you. Thus, no value. I'm sure you're a great guy and have plenty of valid reasons to be confident and have self worth, but don't conflate that with your apparent value to someone else. If no one's buying, that's a pretty good indicator of your value to them. And that's what matters to you right now because you desire those peoples' time and attention.

 

Look -- you're 23, still a student, and I'm guessing because of that, you don't have any real money or desirable resources yet. Take no offense, but that really isn't anything to write home about. After you graduate and move up the pay scale beyond entry level, you'll be generating some real resources (like money and respect). But right now, the only male college seniors with any value are the athletes who are going to be drafted to one of the big 4 leagues, or anyone else who's going to be making 6 figures right out of college. Any guy slightly older than you with a job already is more desirable and better equipped. It's nothing to do with you personally, but that's the way it is until you gain some ground in whatever it is you're going to do in life. Just like an unpaid intern, you're more or less expendable. You have to prove your value first.

 

 

 

Get over it. People are superficial. Women value successful, ambitious, interesting, engaging, attractive, men who can provide for them. Sometimes you'll have to demonstrate that value if people don't give you the benefit of the doubt. Think about what you're saying here. You're a guy who doesn't appeal to women for whatever reason, eschewing women who might like you once they finally get a reason to -- that's childish. It's like you're an unappealing, overweight girl who no man desires, saying "All you guys better start asking me out now because when I get thin and beautiful, no way am I giving you the time of day." Let's not pretend that certain things like beauty and success don't appeal to peoples' most biological urges -- to survive and reproduce. Turning your nose up at people for valuing those things might make you feel like you're on some sort of high ground, but that's just going to isolate you further.

 

If women don't like you, then you need to give them more reasons to. Don't reprimand them for not liking you before you appeal to them the way they need to be appealed to. A doctor wouldn't treat a broken arm with Chickenpox vaccination and then get mad at the patient for not feeling better.

 

Obviously there might be some yet undiscovered issue with you now, or maybe you're just unlucky (for now), but if you stay on the path you're on and continue to work hard, and eventually get your respect/personality/money/house/car/whatever it all is that effectively demonstrates your value, it will be more noticeable, and more appealing. Superficial to an extent? Yes. But lots of women like to provided for, it's tied to biology and it's the reality of the situation. They need to know your worth and define it on their terms, not yours. If you can't accept that, then dating isn't for you because you'll inevitably just get angry and bitter at the process.

 

Best of luck.

 

OP. I would perhaps read this two or three times and absorb what is being said here. I don't usually agree with this particular poster but in this instance there is a lot of common sense and uncomfortable truth.

 

Every time I read this posters posts I would think "superficial" and from a young age I though you could overcome this and perhaps it took me till the age of 31 to realise you actually cannot. We are brought up to be confident people but the reality is that's to cushion us against what is a superficial world unfortunately.

 

You can be smart, you can be articulate and you seem to be both based on your posts but as per above those things matter less than we would like them to.

 

I think value is subjective but its always going to be tied to superficial to a large extent.

 

Where I disagree is that desirable people stay single, yes some do but most do not, the typical marry age here is around 25, start looking into the 30's and your pool of childless desirable women is quite thin, well in my experience at least.

 

The positive for the OP is he is only 23. I wish I could go back to 23 and right a lot of the wrongs, instead I sit at 32 basically stuck with what I have and the decisions I made at 23.

 

I think there is a lot to fundamentally dislike about dating, a lot to dislike about what constitutes attractive. If I were you I would enjoy having friends, enjoy social interactions because and its a cliché, there are many who don't have either of those and believe when I say this, you think what you have is bad, try being that person who no friends at all. Its far worse.

[LightWave93]

It sounds like you secretly dislike women for not giving you attention.

 

Not really, it's just frustrating.

 

You're assuming I'm sitting here on some pedestal.

 

Not at all, I'm simply pointing out women...generally speaking...have it easier.

 

But let's get back to you. Being this pessimistic isn't doing you any favours. I'm not saying not to be realistic at all either. I just think you should get some more energy and fun in the mix.

 

Bearing in mind I'm on an internet forum to exclusively discuss my concerns, it's fair to say that in real life I'm a lot more energetic and fun.

 

Also I've noticed that you're worried that you know guys who are getting sex with lots of women. I mean maybe I don't understand but why do you want to be one of those 'every hole is a goal' kind of guys?

 

It's not so much wanting to have casual sex with lots of women as to actually have options. At least that way I can choose what I want for myself (and, for the record, I do prefer relationships). When you've got no options whatsoever, it's disappointing to say the least...especially when your peers seem to find it much easier and put little effort in.

 

People who are attractive don't have to go on message boards to qualify it with things like "I've been called 'handsome' a few times before." Simply put, if you're attractive, you attract people.

 

I only come here to qualify it because it's one of the first questions people ask when discussing topics like this. Trust me, I by no means feel attractive with how my life has panned out with regards to success with women. That said, when I state that MANY people have called me attractive, it is the truth. Take of that what you will.

 

Demonstrate some opinions, passions, things you like about her, etc.

 

I do. Apologies for not being able to write in excruciating detail my interactions with women. Cut me some slack, I'm not socially inept.

 

If you're still single, I guarantee you will, or at least try.

 

Nope. As I've said, I'm not settling for being second/third/forth best. If women want to totally ignore me now then so be it, that's life, but I'm not welcoming them with open arms later on in life.

 

I believe I'm "entitled" to have fun and have these experiences just as much as anyone else.

 

if that sort of judgment and understanding of the dating landscape is indicative of the way you think and how you operate, I'm not at all surprised that women aren't interested in you.

 

Yes, because I go around telling every woman I meet that.

 

Look -- you're 23, still a student, and I'm guessing because of that, you don't have any real money or desirable resources yet.

 

Decent enough point, but ultimately irrelevant. Why? Because there's plenty of men my age or below who can get dates, sex, girlfriends etc and they have far less resources than me. I know this. Dismissing my chances because I've not established my career etc doesn't work with me because I know that at the age of 23 dating is a prominent thing, if not easier than when you're older.

 

eschewing women who might like you once they finally get a reason to -- that's childish.

 

No, that's respect for myself. I work hard, I'm a decent guy, I have my weaknesses but I set focus on improving, I'm good with people, I'm attentive and caring and all sorts of other qualities. If they choose to value other men who don't have their sh*t together or otherwise are no good for them (and yes, of course, there are women who just have misfortune with dating and/or have meaningful quality relationships that just don't work out), then sod it...

 

but if you stay on the path you're on and continue to work hard, and eventually get your respect/personality/money/house/car/whatever it all is that effectively demonstrates your value, it will be more noticeable, and more appealing.

 

I will stay on the path I'm on, for me and to live a good life.

 

If I were you I would enjoy having friends, enjoy social interactions because and its a cliché, there are many who don't have either of those and believe when I say this, you think what you have is bad, try being that person who no friends at all. Its far worse.

 

Trust me, I've been there myself so I can certainly appreciate these factors in life. I'm in no way unappreciative of the good things.

[SwordofFlame]

OP, there are plenty of men that struggle with dating in college, then go on to have successful careers and have no such struggle afterwards. I know that's not really comforting to hear now, but it is what it is. Just because you're failing with women now, doesn't mean you'll always fail.

 

Here are my best guesses on what your problem is.

 

1) You may be social enough to hold a good conversation, but you're not good at flirting.

2) You don't have "quality attractive friends". And what I mean by that are good friends that are attractive with women AND also willing to help you out because they are good friends that you can rely on.

3) You're not ugly, but also not good looking enough to where women will just make it plain obvious they want you. Women that may act neutral initially may indeed be interested if you flirt well enough.

Edited December 20, 2016 by SwordofFlame

[normal person]

OP. I would perhaps read this two or three times and absorb what is being said here. I don't usually agree with this particular poster but in this instance there is a lot of common sense and uncomfortable truth.

 

Every time I read this posters posts I would think "superficial" and from a young age I though you could overcome this and perhaps it took me till the age of 31 to realise you actually cannot. We are brought up to be confident people but the reality is that's to cushion us against what is a superficial world unfortunately.

 

For the sake of clarity, I don't actually endorse superficiality, I'm just a practical person with a enough experience to know how the world works. I just feel like a lot of the uncomfortable, yet practical, truths go routinely ignored on these forums. The world is not a "nice" place. It's a Darwinian one. If you want success in love and relationships, you'll have a hard time if you ignore it.

 

Where I disagree is that desirable people stay single, yes some do but most do not, the typical marry age here is around 25, start looking into the 30's and your pool of childless desirable women is quite thin, well in my experience at least.

 

Yes, plenty of people are single into their 30s because they're undesirable, or made poor decisions earlier in life. Plenty are single because they're desirable and made good choices. Some are single because of circumstantial reasons, or some combination of all of those. I didn't clarify because it was more or less irrelevant to the point.

 

I only come here to qualify it because it's one of the first questions people ask when discussing topics like this. Trust me, I by no means feel attractive with how my life has panned out with regards to success with women. That said, when I state that MANY people have called me attractive, it is the truth. Take of that what you will.

 

I understand. I'm sure you might be objectively good looking, but if you were "attractive," you would, by definition, attract people. Something about you, whatever it is, is preventing that from happening. Also, consider the myriad of reasons people tell other people they're attractive when they aren't. I'm not saying this is the case, but it's a possibility.

 

 

I do. Apologies for not being able to write in excruciating detail my interactions with women. Cut me some slack, I'm not socially inept.

 

Fair enough, but it doesn't seem to be working. Why do think? If you described some conversations or the paths they take in a bit more detail, someone might be able to help.

 

Nope. As I've said, I'm not settling for being second/third/forth best. If women want to totally ignore me now then so be it, that's life, but I'm not welcoming them with open arms later on in life.

 

I will fundamentally disagree with you that anyone over the age of 25 is someone to be settled for or not "first best." Think about a single girl who goes to graduate school, or a girl who busts her ass, doesn't have time for a relationship, and works her way up the corporate ladder and is a total boss in her mid 20s. Trust me, I've been out with plenty of women from ages 20-28. I would take a 28 year old woman with life experience, a great job, realistic expectations for life, who knows the nuances and intricacies of love and life, who has respect and appreciation for hard work any day of the week over a 23 year old girl who might be slightly thinner but sleeps on a floor in Harlem and thinks "aspiring actress" is a viable career path. I've been with them all. Trust me, you don't want to be with someone before they know fully know who they are themselves. If you don't want to take my advice, fine, but don't say I didn't warn you.

 

I believe I'm "entitled" to have fun and have these experiences just as much as anyone else.

 

Many would believe the millions (billions?) of people on Earth living in poverty are "entitled" to adequate food, water, shelter, healthcare, etc. It would be nice, wouldn't it? But simply desiring something doesn't make it rightfully yours. The world is inherently unfair. You can only do what you can with the cards you're dealt. You're not "entitled" to anything, sorry. That's really dangerous thinking.

 

 

Yes, because I go around telling every woman I meet that.

 

Well you're clearly not having any luck whatsoever, so I don't think it was that ludicrous of a suggestion.

 

 

Decent enough point, but ultimately irrelevant. Why? Because there's plenty of men my age or below who can get dates, sex, girlfriends etc and they have far less resources than me. I know this. Dismissing my chances because I've not established my career etc doesn't work with me because I know that at the age of 23 dating is a prominent thing, if not easier than when you're older.

 

No. If women desire them, they have some sort of appeal, and that's a resource you apparently don't have. A "resource" in this discussion is something people want; something that makes you desirable to be around or to be with. Whatever it is about those guys, it's something they have that makes them desirable. By the mere fact that they have dates, girlfriends, sex, etc, the market shows they have something. Just because the appeal doesn't come from what you think it should doesn't mean it's not a valid appeal or a valid resource. Let it be a learning experience -- having a job and being nice and friendly to everyone might not be a magic bullet for you. Women like men for all different reasons, and they might not be the ones you respect.

 

 

No, that's respect for myself. I work hard, I'm a decent guy, I have my weaknesses but I set focus on improving, I'm good with people, I'm attentive and caring and all sorts of other qualities. If they choose to value other men who don't have their sh*t together or otherwise are no good for them (and yes, of course, there are women who just have misfortune with dating and/or have meaningful quality relationships that just don't work out), then sod it...

 

See above. Working hard and being decent are great. But your lack of success with women has proven those things aren't the deciding factor for these women to like you, at least not right now. You're seeing it first hand. Lots of college girls don't care about how hard you work or how nice you are. They want to be bad, have exciting social lives, and sleep around a little. BUT you insist that all these girls are not worth your time after 25 -- which is coincidentally around the time most of them start developing some professionalism and maturity -- so you've really shot yourself in the foot here. You don't appeal to them now because (I'm guessing) you're not what they want in their stage of life, and once they turn 25 or so, they'll likely mature and realize that you're probably a pretty decent catch, you'll think they're someone to be settled for, or "second, third, or fourth best." Quite a pickle you've put yourself in.

 

 

I will stay on the path I'm on, for me and to live a good life.

 

That's all well and good, but if you also want your life augmented by a woman, and if you think that will be a key component to your happiness (as I suspect you desperately do given the fact that you wrote about it in great detail on a forum), then these are all things you'll need to consider. Simply ignoring women after 25 will be a lot harder than you think it's going to be.

[JuneJulySeptember]

3) You're not ugly, but also not good looking enough to where women will just make it plain obvious they want you. Women that may act neutral initially may indeed be interested if you flirt well enough.

 

The game is different for men.

 

When I was in college, I had this friend who was a pretty good looking white guy. Decent height, good looking face, decent style. Reminds of that guy from Twilight.

 

We had the same major and the same classes and we'd talk about the women in the class he liked. He liked a really short, skinny Asian girl and a taller, thin as a rail Indian girl. Both were pretty average looking to me, plain style, conservative dress, and he went for both of them.

 

Rest assured, I have never in my life encountered the opposite situation of a hot white woman going for some average looking Asian or Indian dude at first glance.

 

I would say maybe the bottom 15-20% of men get virtually no attention from women and will have to 'work' for everything they get. Several more men just above that will get 'a little attention' but it will be more women they deem ugly.

 

So, roughly 25-35% of men or so will never get a woman they think is attractive thinking they are physically attractive at first glance.

[LightWave93]

Always seem to check the forum when I have a reply. It's like a sixth sense.

 

Just because you're failing with women now, doesn't mean you'll always fail.

 

I didn't say I would, in fact I have made the point (and others too) that I'm more likely to have success when I'm older (not holding out hope for that, but it's a possibility).

 

1) You may be social enough to hold a good conversation, but you're not good at flirting.

2) You don't have "quality attractive friends". And what I mean by that are good friends that are attractive with women AND also willing to help you out because they are good friends that you can rely on.

3) You're not ugly, but also not good looking enough to where women will just make it plain obvious they want you. Women that may act neutral initially may indeed be interested if you flirt well enough.

 

1) I wouldn't say I was best at flirting, but I wouldn't say I'm entirely terrible at it either. I can have a playful character, and it's often well received.

 

2) This is a more likely scenario. Unfortunately a lot of my friends tend to stick within their social circle, so once I enter the fray I'll meet a handful of people and then I'll reach a stump until I happen to come across another group. Attempts to get friends to introduce me to their friends (particularly female) have been to no avail.

 

3) Well I'm not 6'+ and built like a sports student (who seem to get the most luck around here, despite their alleged sh*tty personalities which girls moan about but still sleep with), but I'm certainly got ugly. Indeed, I'd like to think I'm pretty active when I'm dressed up for a night-out.

 

Also, consider the myriad of reasons people tell other people they're attractive when they aren't. I'm not saying this is the case, but it's a possibility.

 

I have considered this before, but after asking hundreds of people? Nah, I think they're telling the truth, especially when people on the internet have no relationship with me and are usually brutally honest.

 

Fair enough, but it doesn't seem to be working. Why do think? If you described some conversations or the paths they take in a bit more detail, someone might be able to help.

 

I can't think of any off the top of my head. If I remember, I'll get back to you.

 

Many would believe the millions (billions?) of people on Earth living in poverty are "entitled" to adequate food, water, shelter, healthcare, etc. It would be nice, wouldn't it? But simply desiring something doesn't make it rightfully yours. The world is inherently unfair. You can only do what you can with the cards you're dealt. You're not "entitled" to anything, sorry. That's really dangerous thinking.

 

100% agree, which is why I used " as it wasn't really the right word. Sorry for the lack of clarity. What I mean to say, as best as I can describe it, is that I've put a lot of effort into myself to the point where I believe I'm in a decent enough position to be able to take part in dating and such like.

 

Lots of college girls don't care about how hard you work or how nice you are. They want to be bad, have exciting social lives, and sleep around a little.

 

Two points, firstly that I live a more exciting life than some of the men I've seen with success, and two I don't want a girl who's slept around. Which leads me onto...

 

BUT you insist that all these girls are not worth your time after 25 -- which is coincidentally around the time most of them start developing some professionalism and maturity -- so you've really shot yourself in the foot here.

 

So whereas it's okay for them to completely shun me for a good portion of my youth only to turn around later and go "Oh, he's a catch", it's not okay for me to want to date right now and not settle for being an option later on just because they've suddenly "matured".

 

I don't put women on a pedestal nor do I expect them to be innocent virgin angels and save themselves for me (like some men do, weirdly enough ), but nor do I want to accept the idea into my life that my only role is some sort of beta male who's only worth it when he's older.

 

That's all well and good, but if you also want your life augmented by a woman, and if you think that will be a key component to your happiness (as I suspect you desperately do given the fact that you wrote about it in great detail on a forum), then these are all things you'll need to consider. Simply ignoring women after 25 will be a lot harder than you think it's going to be.

 

At the end of the day I have enough in my life to refocus my efforts and enjoy the opportunities I have on offer, it just would have been nice to have some success with women. I have never been someone they bother with, and when out and about whether it be travelling to university, at a night out, a holiday etc it's difficult to watch people my age get to share in the intimate experiences I'm missing out on. At this point I'll never know what it's like to go on holiday during my youth with a girl I'm dating, or spend time together during our student years.

 

Sadly, you underestimate my claims of ignoring women after 25. Once I stop caring about something, I'm done. That's it.

 

Although the irony is my chosen career path is most likely going to put me in contact with lots of single mothers. Ha.

Edited December 20, 2016 by LightWave93

[normal person]

I have considered this before, but after asking hundreds of people? Nah, I think they're telling the truth, especially when people on the internet have no relationship with me and are usually brutally honest.

 

Ehhh, maybe. Part of me is hesitant because you say you "asked." My point was, if you're attractive, people tell you. They want to be with you. You've heard it hundreds of times without any prompting. Women want to be with you. There's no need to ask. You'll know. People (like many men on this forum) make these kinds of threads and say "I don't understand what the problem is. People have said I'm cute and handsome before" like it's feather in their cap. These terms are very often code for "I don't gain anything by hurting your feelings, so I'll just say you're handsome." This is especially true for anyone who has to see you regularly. There's no advantage to telling someone close to you that they're unappealing. A friend I have is a great girl -- smart, funny, fun --but admittedly, she's overweight, and it's glaringly obvious because all her friends are thin and good looking. If someone asked me, I wouldn't be caught dead saying anything other than "Yeah, she's cute!" Everyone would understand given the circumstances. Plenty of well meaning men would say the exact same thing. But no men date her. There's no advantage in being brutally honest to someone in a situation like that, especially when they've done nothing wrong.

 

100% agree, which is why I used " as it wasn't really the right word. Sorry for the lack of clarity. What I mean to say, as best as I can describe it, is that I've put a lot of effort into myself to the point where I believe I'm in a decent enough position to be able to take part in dating and such like.

 

Look, no one respects hard work and effort as much as I do. So I can respect what you're doing. But it seems the work you've been doing isn't the type that's going to be advantageous to you right now. Like I said, lots of girls in college aren't turned on by a great GPA. They often have other priorities at that age.

 

 

Two points, firstly that I live a more exciting life than some of the men I've seen with success, and two I don't want a girl who's slept around. Which leads me onto...

 

So whereas it's okay for them to completely shun me for a good portion of my youth only to turn around later and go "Oh, he's a catch", it's not okay for me to want to date right now and not settle for being an option later on just because they've suddenly "matured".

 

Women don't have some personal vendetta against you. They don't "shun" you to make you feel bad. They just go for what they want. And that, coincidentally, isn't you right now. A guy with great grades doesn't drop their panties at age 21.

I'm sorry (?). You're on a dangerous path of thought. These things that women and men do aren't "okay" or not, they don't go by some standard or code -- they just are. They're things that happen organically and naturally. There's no law saying women have to date X amount of nice guys against their will in addition to the people they actually want to go out with. Biology, attraction, and desire aren't subject to whatever standard you wish existed. You won't get anywhere expecting the world to conform to the way you want it to.

 

I don't put women on a pedestal nor do I expect them to be innocent virgin angels and save themselves for me (like some men do, weirdly enough ), but nor do I want to accept the idea into my life that my only role is some sort of beta male who's only worth it when he's older.

 

Well, given the current circumstances, that might be the way it is unless you change something (what it could be is still, admittedly, something of a mystery).

Also, there is a lot here. Being "worth it" is not a beta quality. If someone values, respects, and depends you you for what you are and what you bring to the table, that's a very "alpha" trait. Just because womens' priorities might lie elsewhere now doesn't mean they'll always think the same way. Around their mid 20s they're going to start desiring guys who have a lot going for them professionally, financially, etc. But it will take them living out in the real world and seeing for themselves how respectable and valuable that is before they value it. Right now they don't have the life experience to even process it. Yes, you're probably ahead of the game. Yes, it will probably pay dividends for you eventually.

 

It's like your and friend each have $1000. He buys beer and drugs, and you invest in the market. The girls will hang with him and drink his beer and have a great time. When his money is gone, and they've got to do things for themselves, and realize how difficult it is, they'll then realize you're actually probably a lot smarter, you've still got that $1000 plus the appreciation. So yes, I can understand the bitterness towards girls who want to have fun now and the security later, but that's the way a lot of women are. It's just the way the world works If you don't like it, it's certainly your choice not to reward them later in life. Conversely, if you want to have some fun now too, no one is going to look down on you for it. I'm sure your friend would let you come party and have a few of his beers. You've figured out how to be good at school, you're obviously smart enough to figure out how to ingratiate yourself with some girls in whatever way you want as well.

[LightWave93]

Conversely, if you want to have some fun now too, no one is going to look down on you for it. I'm sure your friend would let you come party and have a few of his beers. You've figured out how to be good at school, you're obviously smart enough to figure out how to ingratiate yourself with some girls in whatever way you want as well.

 

Erm. This is the whole point of the thread. I can't.

 

Also, to clarify because you seem to place an emphasis on my "success at school" (if I am indeed successful, I wouldn't really count myself as such), like I said I have a lot of other qualities which I would have thought match with what women want. For all intents and purposes, I'm much like the male students I hang out with ala a typical student in general. Still no dice.

[normal person]

Erm. This is the whole point of the thread. I can't.

 

Also, to clarify because you seem to place an emphasis on my "success at school" (if I am indeed successful, I wouldn't really count myself as such), like I said I have a lot of other qualities which I would have thought match with what women want. For all intents and purposes, I'm much like the male students I hang out with ala a typical student in general. Still no dice.

 

So there's no discernible differences between you and these other guys? If we asked them, what would they say?

[LightWave93]

So there's no discernible differences between you and these other guys? If we asked them, what would they say?

 

With respect, my friend, I haven't got a damn clue. They're just as clueless as I am. I can think of at least three friends who had their jaws on the floor when it eventually entered discussion I've never kissed/pulled at a club.

[LightWave93]

BUMP?

 

 

 

10char

[normal person]

BUMP?

 

I'm not sure what else to tell you. No one can get the whole picture about you from reading a message board. It seems to me like, for whatever reason you're not having much luck now, you'll have a lot better luck when you've got some momentum in your life and career. But by then, you won't want any of the women your own age because you insist they're to be "settled for." So keep your fingers crossed one of those girls who's fresh out of school and a little younger will see the appeal when the time comes. Best of luck, I guess.

[LightWave93]

But by then, you won't want any of the women your own age because you insist they're to be "settled for."

 

To make it clear, I'm saying *I* would be the one to be settled for, not them.

 

Ah well, some of us are destined to be lone I guess.