Rosalind Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Originally posted by Sal Paradise So one could argue that the act of not acting on the fantasy and being able to seperate them from reality and your love for this person; is the ultimate act of committment. Fascinating - and I agree. Rosalind Link to post Share on other sites
ollydolly Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Originally posted by Sal Paradise Furthermore the whole point of a relationship and or marriage is that you're committing yourself to this person. But in that is a sacrifice. Thats part of what makes it so beautiful. If it was easy to do then it could be done with anyone and would make it less special. If you never thought of anyone else ever, remaining faithful would be effortless, and there would be no sacrifice. So one could argue that the act of not acting on the fantasy and being able to seperate them from reality and your love for this person; is the ultimate act of committment. I can see your perspective Sal and I appreciate your opinion on this matter. I'd like to point out that you have used the word sacrifice twice in the context of committing to someone you love. But forsaking all others for the one you love is really not a sacrifice, it is a choice for your Self. A sacrifice is a loss - whereas a choice is for gain. I would be hurt if a man viewed his exclusive committment to me as a sacrifice. Surely he is gaining far more than he is losing? Even in terms of war men don't really sacrifice their lives for their country - they choose to fight for an ideal that they value enough to die for. If the ideal is NOT valuable enough to die for and then they lose their lives, I'd call it sacrifice. There is nothing beautiful about the idea of sacrifice and there should be none within the context of a love relationship. I get your point about faithfulness being a special thing because it means forsaking all others, thereby having meaning because it takes effort. But again, to call it a sacrifice is a great misnomer. It is a higher choice. (I know I've deviated from the topic a bit) Link to post Share on other sites
Blackfrost Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 you shouldnt fantasize about others it is totally wrong!maybe mens and womens brains are totally different but why should women have to worry about there bfs or husbands etc fanisizing about other women!if you want to fantasize about other people i say dont get in a relatonship in the first place! Wow.....must be a slow day at the Vatican............ Link to post Share on other sites
Rosalind Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Originally posted by Blackfrost Wow.....must be a slow day at the Vatican............ Blackie....tsk...tsk...shame on you. Rosalind Link to post Share on other sites
Sal Paradise Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Originally posted by ollydolly I can see your perspective Sal and I appreciate your opinion on this matter. I'd like to point out that you have used the word sacrifice twice in the context of committing to someone you love. But forsaking all others for the one you love is really not a sacrifice, it is a choice for your Self. A sacrifice is a loss - whereas a choice is for gain. I would be hurt if a man viewed his exclusive committment to me as a sacrifice. Surely he is gaining far more than he is losing? Even in terms of war men don't really sacrifice their lives for their country - they choose to fight for an ideal that they value enough to die for. If the ideal is NOT valuable enough to die for and then they lose their lives, I'd call it sacrifice. There is nothing beautiful about the idea of sacrifice and there should be none within the context of a love relationship. I get your point about faithfulness being a special thing because it means forsaking all others, thereby having meaning because it takes effort. But again, to call it a sacrifice is a great misnomer. It is a higher choice. (I know I've deviated from the topic a bit) When a soldier throws himself on a live grenade that is a choice and a sacrifice. When Jesus died on the cross that was a choice and a sacrifice. When a baseball player hits a sacrifice fly to advance a runner, that is a choice and a sacrifice. The word sacrificed is often used to describe a choice that one makes that involves giving up certain things, in order to achieve a greater goal. Another example would be going to college and studying hard while your friends are out partying. Sacrficing your social life in order to pursue an education and or vocational skills. I guess it comes down to whether you see the word sacrifice as a positive or a negative. I think like most things in life it can be both depending on the situation. One could argue that making compromises (as we all have to do) within a relationship is a form of a sacrifice. You're giving in to middle ground for the good of the relationship and because you love the person. Link to post Share on other sites
ollydolly Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Originally posted by Sal Paradise I guess it comes down to whether you see the word sacrifice as a positive or a negative. I think like most things in life it can be both depending on the situation. One could argue that making compromises (as we all have to do) within a relationship is a form of a sacrifice. You're giving in to middle ground for the good of the relationship and because you love the person. Yeah, I guess I see sacrifice as very negative. My boyfriend and I have a policy of no sacrifice in our relationship and in our family life (we have five kids between us who all get on very well - they actually like each other). No sacrifice and No compromise. We believe we can all get what we want via the civilized practise of trade - value for value. That way there will be no resent on either side. It works beautifully. The benefit of a college degree against the benefit of partying with friends is not equal in value. There is no sacrifice because one is of immense importance and one is .... just a few hours of hi ho. Therefore you choose what you WANT the most. I'm sure you may want to party but I bet you want a college degree more. I may like red shoes, but I like white shoes better - it is not a sacrifice to say no to the red shoes if I am gaining the white shoes - I get my highest want. You know how you hear middle aged people saying things like "I sacrificed my life to my children so they could go to college, bla bla"? (In a voice like Livia Soprano) I always think; If it was of value for you to send your child to college - where is the sacrifice? If it is not that valuable for you to have your children go to college because you have to give up too much - don't do it. Many people quietly sacrifice their little hearts out in the name of compromise for the glory of Love and before they know it, their life has settled into the not so grand rut of mediocrity and their relationship has no passion left in it to inspire them anymore.... it's all slowly been compromised away. (Then they have to fantasize all the time about what they might've had, or thought they had... where did we go wrong?) If a man wants me to do or NOT do something I don't want - he better offer me a damn good reason or make me an offer I can't refuse! As an individual I have the right to say yes or no AND so does he. Link to post Share on other sites
Trimmer Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 ollydolly - Wow, I find myself torn considering your comments on sacrifice. Quite an interesting perspective. My first instinct was to react negatively, but then in thinking about it, I could start to see some merit to it, especially since I'm at a crossroads where I feel like I may have "sacrificed" too much without looking out for myself. I don't want to criticize your position, but to understand it... In the end though, is there a place for a surprise gift without expectation of something in return? An unreciprocated backrub? Forgiveness? Does everythign get entered in a column in that imaginary ledger? Maybe we all do this to some degree anyway, and you're just more honest and open and pragmatic about it... But even in the middle of the most painful period of my life (separation after 18 yrs together, last 13 married), I still have trouble giving up the idea that giving something without expecting something in return is a good thing. On the other hand, if the sacrifices become unbalanced over the long run... Aaack - now I'm all confused... Link to post Share on other sites
RecordProducer Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Originally posted by ollydolly I always think; If it was of value for you to send your child to college - where is the sacrifice? If it is not that valuable for you to have your children go to college because you have to give up too much - don't do it. Many people quietly sacrifice their little hearts out in the name of compromise for the glory of Love and before they know it, their life has settled into the not so grand rut of mediocrity and their relationship has no passion left in it to inspire them anymore.... I agree with both points, but the analogy is contradictory. If you decide to sacrifice your needs for love then you choose love, right? That's your primary want. I can sacrifice for my kids to go to college, e.g. I don't have to buy fancy clothes and cars, but I won't prostitute myself so that my kids can go to college. It's all about tolerance and how much you can take. Compromise is a necessary part of life. Nothing is black OR white. And we can give some credit to those who have given up their dreams for us. But you're right that we should do it for ourselves. It's easy when it comes to children because we love them and want the best for them unconditionally. But that's not the case with love partners. Link to post Share on other sites
Trimmer Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 It's easy when it comes to children because we love them and want the best for them unconditionally. But that's not the case with love partners. Someone please tell me I'm not the sappiest, most naiive person in the world (or at least my corner of it), or at least hit me over the head and tell me that I AM, as I'm not real confident of my relationship skills and instincts these days, but I still believe that unconditional love for your lover is both possible and desirable... Link to post Share on other sites
Rosalind Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Originally posted by Trimmer but I still believe that unconditional love for your lover is both possible and desirable... That's nice you feel that way. But that's not how it works between the opposite sex in romantic relationships. Unconditional love in humans is what we feel for parents and children. If you're in a committed LTR, think of it as "renting" their love. Remember your partner is not obligated in any way, shape, or form...to stick around if they are being treated badly. Rosalind Link to post Share on other sites
ollydolly Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Originally posted by Trimmer ollydolly - I don't want to criticize your position, but to understand it... In the end though, is there a place for a surprise gift without expectation of something in return? An unreciprocated backrub? Forgiveness? Does everythign get entered in a column in that imaginary ledger? Because the root principles are firmly fixed... i.e that an individual is the ultimate authority over his or her own life - that it is wrong to use force or deception to influence another's choices - that leaves room for persuasion and reason. We are reasonable people. It is acting in accordance with our true nature. Because the priniciples are understood and agreed on as reasonable, one never NEEDS to keep a ledger and torrents of love VOLUNTARILY flow to and from both parties with freedom of expression. It is totally breaking free from any form of obligation. I never do something in order to surreptitiously get something else from my partner. I guess it becomes really easy to lay one's cards on the table without shame... and let the relationship take off to the stars! Principles around something as important as Love.... are everything. Link to post Share on other sites
RecordProducer Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 You don't understand the concept of 'unconditional love.' Will you love your partner if he cheats on you, beats you, insults you, humiliates you, rapes your sister or daughter, kills your parents...? At which point would you stop loving them? At least at the fifth example if not at the first one... See, my sons could stab me with a knife and while I am bleeding to death I would be worried that they might go to jail and still love them; and when the police comes I'd say "It wasn't them who did this to me!" I will always love them the same NO MATTER WHAT. That's unconditional love. If you're trying to say that you will love your partner even if he doesn't kiss you back or takes presents from you, but doesn't buy you any, hears "I love you" from you but never says it to you... that's not unconditional love. That's just being extremely giving (read: fool) and non-demanding. Link to post Share on other sites
Toni_no12002 Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 why does everyone think my views are wrong who says that people who disagree with me are right?i believe in a relationship you shouldnt fantisize about anyone else as to me its cheating with your mind.i suppose theres loads of people that will disagree with me but that doesnt automatically mean your right its just your view as this is mine. Link to post Share on other sites
Trimmer Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Rosalind and RecordProducer - Well, I guess I did say "hit me over the head"... I think you guys are right. In trying to think through my position, and considering yours, I found myself saying things like, "well yeah, I mean unconditional to a point", but then I had to laugh at myself - that's not really unconditional now, is it? You're right - unconditional love is what I feel for my kids, but my love for my spouse depends on a lot of things. Hmmm.. I have to go away and think about this some. I can accept that one's love for a partner is not unconditional, but I still want to belive in ollydolly's "torrents of love voluntarily flowing." Just a matter of how to get there from here... Anyway, thanks you guys. Link to post Share on other sites
Trimmer Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Back on topic here... Toni_no12002 wrote: why does everyone think my views are wrong who says that people who disagree with me are right? Wow, Toni - from reading back through this thread I don't get that at all. At least three people seem to either partially or wholly agree with you (jacquelyn, ollydolly and the original poster, Reflections) and others who have said, in essence, "it's OK" have been mostly pretty good about keeping the discussion either abstract or about their specific relationship, and not telling you that you're wrong or that you should change. For my part, I respectfully disagree with you that fantasizing about others is "totally wrong" in any relationship, while I am still able to admire you for the level of commitment in your own relationship that precludes it. Link to post Share on other sites
New_Wife Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 I like fantasies. My husband had many fantasies before me, and I assume he still has them now. Sometimes, he shares them with me & we act them out (fun times). It's about trust then. He's trusting me enough to share something that maybe is a little different. He's risking rejection or scorn. I feel naughty and special and sexy just hearing it. I've shared some with him too, and my goodness if he isn't a good improv bed actor! Does he fantasize about other women. Probably. He does have eyes. Does he act on it - nope. Do I care when he's 7 inches in and touching some very naughty parts of me, making me twitch in all sorts of lovely ways? Not a bit. He can be fantasizing about two frogs getting busy for all I care just then. I'm the one he's making scream. Link to post Share on other sites
Toni_no12002 Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 no its not everyone.not naming any names just i hate it when people have said tht they think im some kind controlling person.not just people in this thread.didnt mean to get angry sorry .i dont think its wrong to fantisize but i do thing its wrong to fantisize about other women.i know i sound like a controlling sort of person but im not its like i dont really agree with porn when your in a relationship as your going to look at someone else naked how can that seem right?does anyone understand lol or am i crazy? Link to post Share on other sites
ollydolly Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by RecordProducer You don't understand the concept of 'unconditional love.' You're right Record P... I don't understand unconditional love, I mean I understand it but I reject it. I don't even have it for my children. All love has conditions. The scenario that you said about being stabbed by one of your kids etc.... believe it or not I actually know someone who that happened to. The mother was killed in her kitchen (brutally stabbed) along with the elder brother... the younger son was the murderer. The father, a minister of the gospel who preached the message of unconditional love, found himself in the awful position of having to decide whether his younger son would receive his support after taking the life of his wife (his highest value) and his first born son (his second highest value). He did give his support BUT the condition was contrition of course. If the boy was not contrite about the hideousness of what he had done - how the hell could a father give him his support let alone love? In this moment that father realized all love, including that for our children actually is conditional, when push comes to shove. Link to post Share on other sites
A Fly onThe Wall Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by ollydolly I don't understand unconditional love, I mean I understand it but I reject it. I don't even have it for my children. All love has conditions. Your poor children Link to post Share on other sites
RecordProducer Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Originally posted by ollydolly He did give his support BUT the condition was contrition of course. If the boy was not contrite about the hideousness of what he had done - how the hell could a father give him his support let alone love? In this moment that father realized all love, including that for our children actually is conditional, when push comes to shove. I would love my children no mater what, yet it doesn't mean I would approve everything they do. Speaking of morbid situations, if it turn out that they cut women in pieces and there are proofs for that, I wouldn't lie for them in order to save their asses. Most of all, I would like to see them locked and prevented from doing the same things further. My heart would be broken that I have born such people. I would still love them, but I wouldn't think they're angels. That's why it is unconditional love - you love them even when they are bad. It doesn't mean you defend them and applaud to their sins. Link to post Share on other sites
ollydolly Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I think when you love what is in fact evil, you devalue your own love... it ain't worth jack s***. Link to post Share on other sites
Toni_no12002 Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 i think if your married to someone youve choosen to be with them you shouldnt fantisize about anyone else.does anyone know what love is??your not supposed to want anyone else! Link to post Share on other sites
LucreziaBorgia Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Originally posted by Toni_no12002 i think if your married to someone youve choosen to be with them you shouldnt fantisize about anyone else.does anyone know what love is??your not supposed to want anyone else! Love is accepting your partner for who he/she is: a fully realized human being with human desires, and normal attractions/fantasies for other people. Love is not restricting your partner's normal brain function to the boundaries of your ego's comfort zone. Fantasy isn't about wanting someone else. Its about being with the person you choose, while having the freedom to experience very NORMAL AND NATURAL desires (stuff you don't even act on!!) within the privacy of your own mind. I suppose some people can exert their will to make their brain function perform according not to biology, but to what they think a relationship should be: and they demand the same artificial truncation of their partner's brain function as a show of "love". That's not love, that is mapping your ego needs onto the normal brain functions of your partner. The way the brain is set up, and the way it functions - there is pretty much a zero chance that your partner isn't on some level having fantasies, because that is how the brain is wired. A committed relationship doesn't make the part of your brain function that handles and processes fantasy and desire to just wither and die except for one tiny part dedicated to just one person. All you can do is suppress it or fool yourself into thinking your partner has. Link to post Share on other sites
Toni_no12002 Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 i may sound stupid to you but it bothers me to think that hed be thinking sexually over someone else.do i sound like a nutter?its probably because im not very keen on myself but is it natural to be bothered by him thinking sexually of other women or is it just me? Link to post Share on other sites
LucreziaBorgia Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Originally posted by Toni_no12002 1. i may sound stupid to you 2. but it bothers me to think that hed be thinking sexually over someone else. 3. do i sound like a nutter? 4. its probably because im not very keen on myself 5. but is it natural to be bothered by him thinking sexually of other women or is it just me? 1. I don't think you sound stupid. I just have a well... brusque delivery sometimes. 2. As would a good deal of people. The key is not to change how you feel about it, but to choose your reaction to it - and how you approach the problem. 3. No, you sound normal. Perhaps a bit insecure, but who isn't on some level? 4. I expect if you were keen on yourself, your reactions to it would change drastically. 5. Nope, its natural to be bothered about it. Going about working on it though, requires you to learn to change how you react to it. I'm not saying that you should heartily encourage it and pretend to think its ok. It is just a matter of making yourself really heard about how you feel. If you approach it with anger, and in a confrontational or martyred manner - you will get nothing but defensive reactions. Your partner will be defending against your approach, instead of listening to what you really have to say. You have to approach it by letting him know what you need for yourself, not what you need for him to stop doing to you. Once you get your feet under yourself, and become more secure with yourself you find that you have no need to be bothered by stuff like that: because you are secure in the fact that your partner has chosen you, and is with you. Sometimes the problem is that we aren't always sure about that, and that uncertainty about how your partner feels about you often manifests itself in these ways. Link to post Share on other sites
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