Boundaries After Affair

[Texygrl]

I'll just jump right in!

 

Back story:

 

2008 - Left my chronic cheating spouse of 11 year. Became single mother of 3 boys.

 

Dec 2008 - A guy from high school, whom annoyed the ever loving crap out of me, popped up on my FB page. I messaged him and we began talking (he lived in Europe).

 

We clicked, and started talking on the phone regularly. He came to the states for Christmas/New Year's and we "met" face to face. Hit it off amazingly! He went back to Europe and we started a (VERY) long distant relationship. He came back to visit in April of 2009, was wonderful.

 

Soon after, maybe end of May/June, the company he worked for offered him a severance package as they were downsizing. He expressed to me his desire to move back to the states - "home".

 

July 2009 - I travel to Europe for a two week, amazing, vacation. It ends with him proposing atop the Eiffel Tower, me saying yes, and him deciding to move back to the states.

 

August 2009 - He moves directly into my home (with my boys) upon moving back to the state. All was seemingly well, though hindsight always gives us those red flags we missed.

 

He was jealous. My first marriage had zero jealousy, probably the polar opposite of jealousy, I could go/do whatever I wanted with anyone I wanted. So this jealousy was new to me, but I didn't see it as jealousy in a bad way.

 

I started to think it was bad after "having" (I was never told directly) to sever relationships with male friends. I like peace, and used to seek it whatever the cost, which was mostly my sacrifice.

 

Also during this time, we fought intensely. He would rage on and on, and sometimes I would meet that rage with my own.

 

The up side? We loved each other fiercely. Probably a little co-dependantly, well, probably a lot...We truly enjoyed each other outside of the storms. And, being the peace maker I am, I tried to do whatever I had to do to avoid the storms.

 

December 2010 - We got married.

 

The struggles were still real, and we tried counseling. Found a horrible counselor and promptly stopped and didn't seek another one. Why? Because I was lost. I believed that if I could just "BE" a better wife, he would be a better husband.

 

December 2014 - We got into it over my oldest son. I'd had it, and would not back down. It escalated, and he struck me in the face. That was a deal breaker, however...we had his youngest daughter living with us until July. So, I waited and still hoped things would change.

 

April 2015 - Found an awesome counselor. I was DONE. Still thought I was the only broken one, and wanted to be fixed.

 

Two things came about:

1. I was diagnosed with ADD, which was the BEST news because it made my entire life make sense.

2. He was diagnosed with Narcissistic Rage. Horrible combination with an ADD spouse.

 

At our counselor suggestion, we went from marriage counseling to individual counseling. I grew immensely, he...not so much.

 

July 2015 - We "agree" that it's best he move out. I finally realized the environment was WAY too toxic for my boys. At his suggestion, I planned a trip with my boys and their dad(my ex). Which I found odd he suggest, but I NEEDED to get away, and wanted to spend some quality time with my boys.

 

Of COURSE, three days before I leave, he springs it on me that he wasn't serious about me going on the trip. I said I would not go, and he said "the damage is done", and he moved out while I was gone.

 

August 2015-Now - We had weeks of absolutely no contact intertwined with weeks of everything seeming to move forward in a positive direction. I learned more about my ADD. Started doing a lot of work on "finding myself" :rolleyes: and really focused on my boys. I learned better ways to communicate with him, or not communicate with him depending on his behavior.

 

In June 2016, I decided it was time to either get divorced or actively work on the marriage. I still cared about him, but didn't really "love" him enough to suffer his abusive behavior any more. We went on an amazing vacation, to reconnect to that "love"...my hope being that it would inspire him to look at his issues and really start working on them so we could work on the marriage.

 

Prior to our vacation, I'd planned one with my boys. I was to go to a house owned by my ex, but my ex would only be there (he'd taken the boys) until I arrived and then right before I left.

 

I'd told dh about said plans. Apparently after our vacation, he assumed I would cancel my vacation with the boys. I refused. He freaked out. I ended up blocking his phone calls while with the boys, but when I returned home, the fighting ensued.

 

Finally, I'd had ENOUGH enough...and filed for divorce July 2016.

 

This got his attention...and his behavior changed a bit. I stood by the divorce, but was still hoping he'd "get" it.

 

About the end of August 2016, I started noticing the same woman popping up on his FB page. Likes, check-ins at the same place. I started connecting the dots...When I first approached him, I told him I would hope he would make sure...that if he moved on, he would tell me first. So much for that.

 

Knowing I'd not receive the truth from him, I asked a mutual friend a vague question which she answered. I then confronted him, not really knowing if it was a sexual relationship or just "dating". However, I'm a bit sly and acted as if I knew it was sexual and unknowingly he confirmed.

 

Why why why this wasn't THE END, final straw for me...I broke down completely. Lashed out at the "other woman", at him, and myself for being so unworthy. In my freaking out, I did some digging and found he'd had few sexual relationships all while telling ME I was breaking my vows. Lie upon lie was uncovered.

 

I reckon that our sick co-dependancy kicked in, and he needed to save me from the pain of this revelation, and I needed to be saved from the overwhelming pain. We found yet another counselor, another GREAT one, and discovered some trauma/ptsd from our past. His is severe, horrible childhood with an emotional and physically abusive mother. Not new news, I'd always found it an important factor, he just thought it was from the past and didn't impact his relationships now.

 

Our first session was amazing. We learned about the "cycle" we get trapped in and were given ways to break this cycle. Alas, his ptsd prevented this. Our therapist suggested I join a women's group, which I did, however that triggered my ptsd from the abuse and infidelity in my current marriage (an probably a little from the infidelity of the first marriage). When that happened, our therapist advised us to go "no contact" and do intensive trauma therapy as individuals.

 

Today - I've done EMDR for the trauma.

 

Side note: IT'S AMAZING! Once you understand what causes ptsd, and how EMDR allows the brain to let go of the trauma, it's a Godsend! I will shout it from the mountain tops as help for anyone who has ptsd or suffered trauma!!

 

I've been able to disconnect from the trauma. When one suffers trauma, the brain goes into protection mode automatically if it senses being in even a remotely similar situation. Hence, the cycle and wicked fighting. Our traumas were in direct conflict, and our brains were fighting against us. Part of our brain wanted to break the cycle, but the ptsd part made it impossible.

 

Since I've had no contact with dh, I don't know how it's worked for him. For me, I see things very very differently now. I've also read an amazing book on boundaries, which I had NO idea I had NO idea what they were or how to make them!!! lol

 

If you've gotten this far, God bless you!! My struggle today is this:

 

I no longer think there was/is something wrong with ME. Well, I know there is plenty wrong with me...BUT, I never deserved to be verbally abused, physically abused, and certainly didn't deserve to find out my still husband had, and was having, sexual relationships with other women.

 

From experience, I drew two lines in the sand (for myself). I was NEVER going to be with a person that would hit me. And I was NEVER going to stay with a person that cheated on me. *He does not considering it cheating. He says I abandoned him, he didn't go looking for a new relationship, they found him.

 

The rub? I've seen plenty of marriages survive infidelity, though I honestly don't know how they did it.

 

While my dh is a complete jack wagon, I also know under all his baggage is a really good (very lost) person.

 

Part of me wants to say "hit the bricks", the other part says "what if"...

 

So, again, if you've suffered through this short novel, I need some input on the "what if":

 

*What are healthy boundaries to put in place now as we try to see if this marriage could be salvaged?

*What does repentance look like? Sorry doesn't me squat in my world, he's said sorry a million times and the behavior never changes.

*How do you rebuild trust?

*Is it outrageous for me to want to finalize the divorce, then want to try to rebuild to remarriage?

 

Oy, sorry for it being so very long. And thank you again if you read the whole thing.

[BluesPower]

Look, you have been in two bad marriages. And as you know, you are a co-dependent personality.

 

Your husband is just bad news. He is not going to change, he will find another woman to be with that will take care of him.

 

I am not sure on your age. But look at what I have been through.

 

I have been married for 26 years. Unknown to me, my wife was a drug addict and had a ton of emotional issues. For 26 years I did not care what the problem was because I loved her with all my heart.

 

Most people cannot imagine the things that I have been through with her. But here is the short list: 2 affairs, tons of mysterious sicknesses (Drug addiction), raised 3 kids alone because of her drug use, sole bread winner, on and on. And that is not the worst stuff, just the basics.

 

What I am trying to tell you is:

 

1) Stop wasting your life trying to fix other people, it never works.

 

2) Work on yourself so that when you find the right person you will know it. That person will treat you with love and respect.

 

3) If you waste your life for others, you life is wasted.

 

4) Don't throw good money after bad.

 

See, I have dedicated my life to my wife and my family. None of that is a bad thing unless you dedicate your life to someone that really does not love you but instead just uses you.

 

That is what you are doing now and it is better to learn now than later.

 

It actually took an affair for me to realize what it is like to be with a woman that really loves you. Unfortunately is some ways I kind of went off the deep end for several years and went through multiple GF's finding out what it was like to actually be loved. I was pretty messed up.

 

Most of these revelations are relatively new for me and I am 52 years old. I am basically so damaged that I don't think that I will ever really be able to truly love another woman the way I love my wife. Even with that damage, when I file for divorce and move on with my life I will be so much better off.

 

Don't do like I did and waste you life trying to fix someone or taking care of everyone else's need above your own.

 

Live your life for you. You deserve to be happy, you deserve to be loved properly by the right man, you deserve to have your life, for you.

[birdmom5]

I don't think a marriage is ever to far from a miracle! BUT, that doesn't mean you ever allow abuse!!

Repentance to me would be counseling on his part!!

Until he could prove trust worthy you need those good boundaries!! I think the work you have done is incredible. You deserve it and so you do your boys!!

You never have to go forward with a divorce!! You can stay in separation mode if he desires to get counseling and you guys continue with marriage counseling!! But protect yourself and your kids!! Good Luck. Merry Christmas. I pray your New YEar is filled with restoration and Peace!

[Texygrl]

I am not sure on your age.

 

I'm 45...

 

I don't think a marriage is ever to far from a miracle! BUT, that doesn't mean you ever allow abuse!!

Repentance to me would be counseling on his part!!

Until he could prove trust worthy you need those good boundaries!! I think the work you have done is incredible. You deserve it and so you do your boys!!

You never have to go forward with a divorce!! You can stay in separation mode if he desires to get counseling and you guys continue with marriage counseling!! But protect yourself and your kids!! Good Luck. Merry Christmas. I pray your New YEar is filled with restoration and Peace!

 

He's in counseling...again. He was in counseling before we separated and until he "fired" the counselor we were both seeing.

 

He broke the no contact boundary, and contacted me twice. The second time, I entertained a "conversation" and from the gist of it, he thinks his abuse/affairs off set my bad behavior - which was not talking to him for weeks if he was just going to rehash the past; going to dinner occasionally with my boys and their dad.

 

We've been in counseling for two years now...when is it time to say when?

 

And WHAT are examples of reasonable boundaries?? Because I have NO idea!! lol

[Texygrl]

I posted the long version in General Discussions, because I didn't see this forum.

 

The short version is:

 

My dh was verbally abusive, physically abusive once, we separated in July 2015, then I filed for divorce in July 2016 because his behavior was not changing.

 

In late August, I find out he's "dating" another woman and they had a sexual relationship. Then I find out he had another sexual relationship in December 2015 and at least two other sexual encounters, but solicited several more that didn't pan out.

 

After discovering the "affairs", which he doesn't exactly consider them since we were separated...he suggested we go to counseling. We'd already been in counseling when we separated, going individually because the therapist said we had individual issues that needed to be addressed first. He quit going to that therapist.

 

Our new therapist suggest the same thing after meeting with us as a couple. She suggested a month of no contact.

 

I've had intense therapy (EMDR) for trauma, and am now finding myself wondering trying to figure out if I even want to give this marriage, yet another, 10th chance.

 

I don't trust him at all. The only reason I know he had multiple sexual encounters is because I hacked his phone.

 

What would any of you consider progress on his part for me to continue marriage therapy?

 

His words are meaningless to me. Sorry doesn't mean squat. "You have to know I always thought of you" makes me want to punch him. I've gone from thinking why wasn't I good enough, to - is he "worthy" of me?

 

Help!

Edited December 25, 2016 by Texygrl
correct title

[Popsicle]

Interesting that your therapist, who I assume is a clinical professional, suggested a month of time apart with no contact. I guess needing space and taking a break is good after all.

[MidnightBlue1980]

I posted the long version in General Discussions, because I didn't see this forum.

 

The short version is:

 

My dh was verbally abusive, physically abusive once, we separated in July 2015, then I filed for divorce in July 2016 because his behavior was not changing.

 

In late August, I find out he's "dating" another woman and they had a sexual relationship. Then I find out he had another sexual relationship in December 2015 and at least two other sexual encounters, but solicited several more that didn't pan out.

 

After discovering the "affairs", which he doesn't exactly consider them since we were separated...he suggested we go to counseling. We'd already been in counseling when we separated, going individually because the therapist said we had individual issues that needed to be addressed first. He quit going to that therapist.

 

Our new therapist suggest the same thing after meeting with us as a couple. She suggested a month of no contact.

 

I've had intense therapy (EMDR) for trauma, and am now finding myself wondering trying to figure out if I even want to give this marriage, yet another, 10th chance.

 

I don't trust him at all. The only reason I know he had multiple sexual encounters is because I hacked his phone.

 

What would any of you consider progress on his part for me to continue marriage therapy?

 

His words are meaningless to me. Sorry doesn't mean squat. "You have to know I always thought of you" makes me want to punch him. I've gone from thinking why wasn't I good enough, to - is he "worthy" of me?

 

Help!

 

Cheating aside (as I do not want to be a hypocrite), verbal and physical abuse are deal breakers to me. My exh was verbally abusive and tried to kill me in a choke hold, and I left and divorced him. I do not think people like that can change. He is now remarried, so perhaps people can change with a new person, but not with the same person.

 

Do you have kids?

[BaileyB]

Any of the following - cheating, verbal and/or physical abuse - would absolutely be deal breakers for me. You don't trust him for good reason - he's done nothing to earn your trust.

 

I can appreciate that it's hard to separate if you have kids and with regard to finances, but life is simply too short than to be trying to mend a relationship with someone who does not treat you with respect and offer love and security in the relationship.

 

Honestly, if he was my husband I would be telling him not to let the door hit him on the way out... You deserve much more than he has offered you.

[BetrayedH]

To me, nothing is worth the PTSD and this relationship has brought you abuse and betrayal. He quit the therapist that was going to hold him accountable. Cut your losses.

[Mr. Lucky]

His words are meaningless to me.

 

Then base your decision on his actions. Shouldn't be a hard one to make...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Jersey born raised]

Why on earth is a MC think your marriage can be saved? Separation should be used for meditation and reviewing one's life and the role one plays in the life of others. Instead he chased other woman.

 

Do you have children? If not move on at the speed of light.

 

Marriage us not a suicide pact or an agreement to become a martyr. It is to be lived.

[dichotomy]

Often after an affair (single) marriages may survive for a variety of reasons.

 

But abuse - all by itself - plus added issues multiple affairs seems hard to recover from.

 

 

Why do you want to remain married?

[WilyWill]

I've gone from thinking why wasn't I good enough, to - is he "worthy" of me?

 

I can answer that. He's not. Find a decent guy who values you and doesn't want to abuse you.

[Texygrl]

Do you have kids?

 

He and I have no children, I have 3 from my first marriage.

 

Then base your decision on his actions. Shouldn't be a hard one to make...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Yes...it's what the actions should look like that have me all ???

 

Why on earth is a MC think your marriage can be saved? Separation should be used for meditation and reviewing one's life and the role one plays in the life of others. Instead he chased other woman.

 

Neither MC said it could be saved, exactly...Our current therapist is doing EMDR for both of us. Prior to the EMDR, either I would have a panic attack, or he would become really angry...hence the six weeks of no contact and intensive EMDR.

 

Often after an affair (single) marriages may survive for a variety of reasons.

 

But abuse - all by itself - plus added issues multiple affairs seems hard to recover from.

 

 

Why do you want to remain married?

 

The romantic side of me says "because he's a good person deep down". However, the logical side comes back and says "what if that's a fantasy"?

 

Being undiagnosed with ADD/ADHD for 45 years put me into perpetual "if you'd just try harder" mode. While I've come a long way in understanding that "trying harder" just doesn't work on many things I do, the mind-set remains. However, the EMDR helped in that I can see I did try harder and nothing worked, it wasn't me or something I could do differently that was the core of the issues.

 

I can answer that. He's not. Find a decent guy who values you and doesn't want to abuse you.

 

I agree with this, mostly.

 

So, I'll ask this question, because I can't answer it myself:

 

What would he have to do to become a decent guy? Is there anything he could do? What would be something he could "do", to show he might be able to become a better person?

 

I truly appreciate all the responses. I've turned into that woman you want to shake because she sees the writing on the wall, but is still full of "what ifs". I've tried to make a list of "if he did this, it would show repentance and accountability" but that list is blank. -_- I've always been horrible at making lists. lol

 

Merry Christmas!

[usa1ah]

He is not a good person if he is cheating.

 

I am not bias with my suggestions, leave the POS.

 

Same advice I would give to a guy that had a wife that cheated multiple times.

 

You deserve a lot better then him.

 

Why did he divorce first wife? Bet it is the same reason you are getting ready to.

[usa1ah]

If it was a one off then come back to you confessing what he had done, then I would say you had a chance. But it didn't happen that way.

 

Any time it has been multi partners and the BS has to find it out on their own, I would say it is over.

[BetrayedH]

There's a thread posted near the top of this forum, Things that every wayward spouse needs to know. It paints a good picture of what a truly remorseful wayward spouse looks like. In short, they'll do just about anything to right their wrongs. Take a look and let us know what he is or isn't doing.

[Ahurtgirl]

Actions speak louder than words. You obviously love him to continue to give him so many chances but is it really healthy for you to continue letting him do this to you?

You deserve so much better and there really are men who don't cheat out there. Love yourself enough to walk away.

[Mr. Lucky]

Yes...it's what the actions should look like that have me all ???

 

I think you're playing a game with us. The actions should look like the opposite of pretty much everything he has done. To whit:

 

My dh was verbally abusive - NO

physically abusive once - NO

his behavior was not changing - NO

I find out he's "dating" another woman - NO

they had a sexual relationship - NO

I find out he had another sexual relationship in December 2015 - NO

and at least two other sexual encounters - NO

solicited several more that didn't pan out - NO

he doesn't exactly consider them since we were separated - NO

He quit going to that therapist - NO

 

Again, doesn't seem like it should be a very hard decision...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Texygrl]

I think you're playing a game with us. The actions should look like the opposite of pretty much everything he has done. To whit:

 

 

 

Again, doesn't seem like it should be a very hard decision...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I assure you I am not playing a game. My theory, is I experienced something similar to brainwashing. I was very adamant that his behavior and actions were wrong. He was equally as adamant that I was over-reacting, or that my behavior was over the top and I should take some of the responsibility.

 

I just get stuck when I think of how good things are during the "calm". I'm an optimist to a fault and it's hard to let go of the hope. I like to think that people can always write a new story of their lives, but they have to do something dramatically different. And while he's changed/improved on some levels, he still puts part of the blame on me for the abuse and other women.

 

It is a hard decision, because I know he could be/do better...he just hasn't. And I guess it feeds into my "why am I not good enough" crap. But I AM good enough, and I just have to keep reminding myself of that.

 

Sorry I come across as disingenuous, I truly am just very confused between heart and head.

[Texygrl]

Mr. Lucky, in a different thread, you said "we didn't have equal stakes in going forward".

 

What did you mean by that?

[BuddyX]

How old are your kids?

[Downtown]

He was diagnosed with Narcissistic Rage.

Texygrl, perhaps you mean to say NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). The term "narcissistic rage" is not mentioned anywhere in the American diagnostic manual (DSM-5). Nor is it mentioned in the International diagnostic manual (ISD-10). Yet, because the psychiatric community includes many individuals who disagree with the majority view, you will see much discussion of "narcissistic rage" on the Internet and in a few academic papers -- even though the majority of psychologists have refused, for many decades, to include that term in the diagnostic manual.

 

If your counselor meant to say "NPD," perhaps he/she is correct. Persistent NPD behavior, however, is NOT what you are describing here. Significantly, the key defining traits for NPD -- persistent grandiosity, excessive need for admiration, and a disdain and lack of empathy for others -- are not apparent in your description of his 4.5 years of behavior during the marriage prior to your July 2015 separation.

 

Instead, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., verbal and physical abuse, controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your H has full-blown BPD but, rather, that he may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it or another PD.

 

I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your H exhibits BPD traits. Of course he does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether he exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met him, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list.

 

Dec 2008 - I messaged him and we began talking (he lived in Europe).... He came back to visit in April of 2009.... July 2009, him proposing atop the Eiffel Tower.... August 2009 - He moves directly into my home (with my boys) upon moving back to the states.

Texygrl, any man proposing and moving in that quickly likely is impulsive. Moreover, his multiple affairs following your separation seem to be another sign of impulsiveness. I mention this because strong impulsiveness is a defining trait for BPD, not NPD. You can verify this for yourself by comparing the 9 BPD symptoms with the 9 NPD symptoms.

 

We fought intensely. He would rage on and on....

Again, this behavioral symptom -- rage -- is a defining symptom for BPD, not NPD. (Again, follow the links above.) Specifically, "Inappropriate, intense anger or problems controlling anger" is one of the nine BPD traits. Indeed, this problem of controlling anger is so strongly associated with BPD that it is not listed as a defining trait for any of the other nine personality disorders.

 

He struck me in the face.

If your H is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), he carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of the anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in less than a minute -- oftentimes in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.

 

For these reasons, the physical abuse of a spouse or partner has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at 50% of Batterers are BPDers. Similarly, a 2008 study and a 2012 study find a strong association between violence and BPD.

 

Because rage is a BPD trait, what your counselor called "narcissistic rage" likely is more accurately described as the co-occurrence of strong BPD and NPD traits. This co-occurrence would not be surprising because the vast majority of folks having strong traits of one PD also exhibit strong traits of one or two others as well.

 

A 2008 study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that 47% of male full-blown BPDers also exhibit full-blown NPD. And 34% of the male full-blown NPDers (narcissists) also exhibit full-blown BPD. Hence, having strong traits of one PD does not rule out having strong traits of another one too.

 

He was jealous.... I started to think it was bad after "having" (I was never told directly) to sever relationships with male friends.

Having a great fear of abandonment -- which manifests itself as an irrational jealousy -- is a defining symptom for BPD, not NPD (as shown at the two PD-trait links above).

 

We loved each other fiercely.... We truly enjoyed each other outside of the storms.

Full-blown narcissists are so self centered that they are incapable of loving anyone else. In contrast, BPDers are able to love very intensely and passionately, albeit in the immature way that a young child loves. Hence, if you believe he truly did love you during the first several years of your marriage, you are describing behavior characteristic of BPD, not NPD.

 

Granted, a BPDer often may appear to have no love whatsoever for his partner. This occurs because a BPDer is too emotionally immature to handle strong conflicting feelings (e.g., love and hate) simultaneously. Hence, like young children, BPDers can subconsciously "split off" the conflicting feeling in ten seconds, putting it far out of reach of their conscious minds.

 

If it is the love feeling that is being split off, that love does not disappear. It is not gone. Rather, it is simply out of reach until the other conflicting feeling eventually subsides. When that happens, the BPDer can flip back to "loving you" in ten seconds.

 

And, being the peace maker I am, I tried to do whatever I had to do to avoid the storms.

Your careful behavior "to avoid the storms" is called "walking on eggshells." Nearly all partners of BPDers do this. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to those abused partners) is called Stop Walking on Eggshells.

 

At our counselor suggestion, we went from marriage counseling to individual counseling.

Good suggestion. If your H exhibits strong and persistent traits of BPD or NPD, MC likely will be a total waste of time until he's had several years of IC. Moreover, it's unlikely a BPDer or NPDer would have the self awareness and ego strength to make a real difference in his behavior -- even if he does go to therapy for several years. For BPD, most major cities offer excellent treatment programs (e.g., DBT and CBT) but it is rare for a BPDer to stay in such programs long enough to make a real difference.

 

Apparently after our vacation, he assumed I would cancel my vacation with the boys. I refused. He freaked out.

If he is a BPDer, he would absolutely HATE to be alone by himself. Moreover, he would have such a great fear of abandonment that he would see signs of abandonment in harmless actions and events where it does not exist, e.g., in your decision to spend alone time with your sons and in your subsequent decision to physically separate from him. My BPDer exW, for example, saw abandonment threats in numerous harmless actions -- e.g., my walking a few steps of her on the sidewalk or looking at another attractive woman for 3/4 second instead of 1/2 second.

 

This got his attention...and his behavior changed a bit.

If he is a BPDer, he is emotionally unstable. This means he will alternate between love-bombing you and pushing you away. Hence, like some smokers who always seen "quitting" every two months, a BPDer will be seen improving -- sometimes dramatically so -- quite often. What you likely are seeing with a BPDer, however, is just another upswing on the endless roller coaster ride.

 

His is severe, horrible childhood with an emotional and physically abusive mother.

Both BPD and NPD are believed to be caused by a combination of genetics and early childhood treatment by a parent. In a recent large-scale study of BPDers, for example, 70% of them reported that they had been abused or abandoned by a parent in childhood.

 

He does not considering it cheating. He says I abandoned him, he didn't go looking for a new relationship, they found him.

If he has strong NPD traits as your counselor suggested, he likely is lying to manipulate you. On the other hand, if he is a BPDer, he very likely did feel terribly "abandoned" by your decision to separate, i.e., by your insistence that he move out of the house.

 

It is because his affairs occurred after the separation (i.e., after the "abandonment") that I tend to view that behavior as a warning sign for BPD. If it had occurred instead before the separation, it would be far more indicative of narcissistic behavior (i.e., seeking adulation and evidence of his superiority from other women).

 

I also know under all his baggage is a really good (very lost) person.

If he actually is a BPDer, you likely are correct. A BPDer's problem is not being "bad" but, rather, "unstable." Most BPDers I've met generally are good and caring individuals who are very easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

 

How do you rebuild trust?

If he is a BPDer, you cannot rebuild trust until he's had years of therapy to learn how to trust HIMSELF. Until then, he cannot trust you. And, as long as he's incapable of trusting you, you can never trust him because he can experience an intense mood flip at any time -- at which point he will turn on you again with anger.

 

He's in counseling...again. He was in counseling before we separated and until he "fired" the counselor we were both seeing.

Likewise, my BPDer exW fired a number of therapists. Because a BPDer is unable to trust any adult who gets close to him, he typically dumps a therapist whenever the therapist gets close to seeing his dark side. I took my exW to weekly visits with six different psychologists and 3 MCs -- for 15 years -- all to no avail. She would play games with them until they started to catch on to the game.

 

Hence, if you really want to know what you've been dealing with, your very best chance of doing so is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion. Importantly, it should be a psychologist who has not treated or seen your H. That way, you are assured that the psych is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not his. I say this because therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer the name of his diagnosed disorder.

 

I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

 

Learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your H's issues. Yet, like learning warning signs for breast cancer and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a painful situation, e.g., taking your H back or running into the arms of another man just like him. Take care, Texygrl, and have a great Christmas with your sons!

[Mr. Lucky]

Mr. Lucky, in a different thread, you said "we didn't have equal stakes in going forward".

 

What did you mean by that?

 

Can you link the specific thread or post?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Texygrl]

Can you link the specific thread or post?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

It's from the thread "When did you know that infidelity was a deal breaker?"

 

You understand that's not apples-to-apples, right?

 

I swore my attempts to heal my marriage would be solely based on my WS's efforts, no financial considerations involved. So the dealbreaker for me was when she failed the sweat equity test, we just didn't have an equal stake in going forward.

 

In your case, one thing you'd have less of is a cheating spouse ...

 

Mr. Lucky