Mid life wife drama

[Mr. Lucky]

How did you get from this:

 

So I started having round the clock panic attacks, taking pills to sleep.

 

To this:

 

But it's not all bad. It's not even more than 50% bad. It's actually about 75% great...We've learned to love each other about 1000% better. We have sex literally every day though we're in our 40s. Best I ever had actually. And it gets better on all fronts everyday.

 

Mr. Lucky

[rocky2marie]

Therapy. And the path isn't exactly linear.

[Cephalopod]

Not one person can understand the relationship of another. They're as individuated as fingerprints.

 

Most of us will disagree. Actually, the patterns of behavior leading up to affairs, and the behavior of a wayward after exposure, is pretty consistent across the board. I'm afraid that you are buying into a fallacy that somehow your wife's behavior is unusual and unique, or that you and her have some unique marriage with unique problems. Maybe is some aspects, but for the most your wife's behavior is rather typical and follows the cheaters' script almost to the letter.

 

I too once thought that the way my exWW treated me was unique and bizarre, but after visiting these sites and learning about the patterns of adultery, I came to realize that my exWW was a typical, lowdown, lying snake-in-the grass, narcissistic cheat. Once I accepted that reality, it was much easier to heal and move forward, now that I had knocked her off that pedestal I had her on.

[Mr. Lucky]

Actually, the patterns of behavior leading up to affairs, and the behavior of a wayward after exposure, is pretty consistent across the board.

 

Couldn't agree more. There's such an eerie commonality to many of the infidelity threads that it's hard at times to tell them apart.

 

"Person with poor communication skills/conflict-avoidant personality rationalizes a choice to seek emotional/physical validation elsewhere and then revises marital history to support actions and blame spouse".

 

Lather, rinse, repeat...

 

Mr. Lucky

[rocky2marie]

Do you still take pills?

 

Have you had issues at all with addiction?

 

No. Not since the "radical truth" weeks of last year.

[rocky2marie]

Couldn't agree more. There's such an eerie commonality to many of the infidelity threads that it's hard at times to tell them apart.

 

"Person with poor communication skills/conflict-avoidant personality rationalizes a choice to seek emotional/physical validation elsewhere and then revises marital history to support actions and blame spouse".

 

Lather, rinse, repeat...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

 

So what do you do if you're me? And I don't mean the cryptic "are you prepared to take extreme action" as some posters have suggested. I don't want a don't ask don't tell relationship. Nor do I want an open one. My wife has not confessed to wanting either. But she did say to me multiple times and to the therapist "I don't care what he does as long as I don't know about it." And the therapist replied "Can you see how that makes him think you're cheating? Double standards don't work with fidelity."

All I can do is 1. live with it, 2. hire a PI or escalate surveillance in the hopes of catching her Or 3. divorce her now with no case.

[Mr. Lucky]

All I can do is 1. live with it, 2. hire a PI or escalate surveillance in the hopes of catching her Or 3. divorce her now with no case.

 

I'd throw out #2, you already know something inappropriate has gone down.

 

So it's really a choice between #1 and #3.

 

In your situation a long time ago, I chose #1. We had a young child together and I was motivated to work things out. Unfortunately, my ex-wife had made her own choice - dangle hope in front of me while she pursued other options. So we eventually divorced, could have saved myself alot of grief had I gone there directly. YMMV...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Cephalopod]

So what do you do if you're me? And I don't mean the cryptic "are you prepared to take extreme action" as some posters have suggested. I don't want a don't ask don't tell relationship. Nor do I want an open one. My wife has not confessed to wanting either. But she did say to me multiple times and to the therapist "I don't care what he does as long as I don't know about it." And the therapist replied "Can you see how that makes him think you're cheating? Double standards don't work with fidelity."

All I can do is 1. live with it, 2. hire a PI or escalate surveillance in the hopes of catching her Or 3. divorce her now with no case.

 

I say go with 3. If I was married and I had a wife who said what yours said, I would interpret that as her saying that she simply doesn't give a rat's ass about you or her marriage. "I don't care what he does" is the same as her saying "I have detached from him so far that nothing he says or does affects me in the slightest. If he walked out into the street and got mowed down by a cement truck, I wouldn't care."

 

Talk about disrespect....

[rocky2marie]

I say go with 3. If I was married and I had a wife who said what yours said, I would interpret that as her saying that she simply doesn't give a rat's ass about you or her marriage. "I don't care what he does" is the same as her saying "I have detached from him so far that nothing he says or does affects me in the slightest. If he walked out into the street and got mowed down by a cement truck, I wouldn't care."

 

Talk about disrespect....

 

 

Yeah it freaked me out too. She backtracked saying it was just the protection mechanism she built up after my cheating. As a child of parents who should have been divorced and stayed divorced when I was 4 and didn't I have been THE biggest troll on unhappy married people staying together. Would recommend divorce to myself all day. But I've got no grounds. No EVIDENCE of actual infidelity.

 

Also my most staunch friends -- who know me and my wife --- have responded to this in the "you have to stay together" mode. "you two are for life -- you have to work it out." It's what I want. It's what she supposedly wants. It's what our kid wants (unlike my childhood we don't fight in front of him and he's super ****ing happy when we're together) It's what our therapist wants. Its' what our friends want. But MAN O ****ING MAN. If i invest more YEARS into this only to find at the end of the line that she's off to other **** I'm going to be PISSSSSSED.

[Jersey born raised]

Hearing you loud and clear.

 

Have you ever discussed how she treated you when you where sick? Does this play into your thoughts, it would mine.

[rocky2marie]

Hearing you loud and clear.

 

Have you ever discussed how she treated you when you where sick? Does this play into your thoughts, it would mine.

 

 

Haha. We discuss that every week! Always comes up. She's apologized many times. Says she was afraid. Said she was resentful that she had to work while I recovered. Also probably still mad at my cheating. But yes it most DEFinitely plays and preys on my thoughts.

[rocky2marie]

Hearing you loud and clear.

 

 

Finally someone expressing empathy. Thanks Jersey Born.

[Jersey born raised]

Have you ever heard the term " covert agreement"? It occurs when one person assumes because of actions on their part, others will respond in a similar fashion. I recall in the 70s, 80s, .... Americans felt disrespected by the french no matter how nice they treated the French. I remember a guy who lived there for over a decade saying, the French hate each other, why the hell should they like you! The Americans where engaging in a form of covert agreement.

 

I think your wife engaged in a form of covert agreement regarding fidelity when she became pregnant. Your affair she saw/sees as infidelity, notice I used the term infidelity not adultery.

 

Her belief in a broken covert agreement led to her actions when she froze you out for six years and was indifferent when you became ill. This broken covert agreement hit her every bit as hard as her lack of feeling when you became ill hit you. Both are open gaping sores tst

[Jersey born raised]

Need to heal.

 

It does not matter what the facts where in regards to the infidelity. It is her belief rooted in her emotions. Accept this and treated it like she was right. Are you using any type of MC?

 

Finally option 3 all the way but be covert about it. She is at an age when radical shifts in behavior occur, so be concerned. So work on good boundaries. Good boundaries are like seat belts, they keep you safe when the **** hits the fan.

[rocky2marie]

Need to heal.

Are you using any type of MC?

 

Finally option 3 all the way but be covert about it. She is at an age when radical shifts in behavior occur, so be concerned. So work on good boundaries. Good boundaries are like seat belts, they keep you safe when the **** hits the fan.

 

 

Interesting points. Need a little layman's explication. What do you mean by boundaries? By MC do you mean Marriage counselor? If so yes. See him weekly.

[rocky2marie]

Divorce her but be covert?

 

Forgot to mention we also work together and run a business together. Very entangled.

[rocky2marie]

If she didn't forgive you ... why did you move forward to marriage?

 

I don't agree this is a divorce situation, but why does she wish she had an affair? Because she could have? Because you weren't enough? To get even?

 

 

 

Missed this post. We never actually talked about why she said she wanted an affair. I just assumed it was because she could have. Or was getting older. Or we'd been together so long. She had me listen to all these TED talks by this french marriage counselor about fidelity. None of which I really enjoyed hearing. Was all about how affairs are just human nature. And how "good flirting" is essential to ones health. Was when she was trying to calm me down after I started freaking out about her admitting to "flirting". In fact defending her right to heavily flirt. When I said "I don't want you to flirt like that or go out drinking with OS co-workers while on vacation" she angrily defended herself "You're gonna shut me down!? You're gonna shut me down??" I said you're disrespecting me as your husband to do that. When she came home from that ill fated Vegas trip hung over as hell she admitted to having had six cocktails while dancing (with all male co-workers ) and I just about flipped the **** out. She said she went back to her hotel room because she was slurring and couldn't speak. But no cheating. I said "Ok honey. I believe you." Then I went to a bar and proceeded to have six cocktails just as an experiment. I was blind drunk -- no self control. I could've done anything with anyone. And I'm 6'4 200 lbs. She's 5'6 140. Do the math. Next day I told her I didn't believe her as far as I could throw a moose that she didn't cheat but that even still -- getting that wasted

with ALL guys was cheating all by itself. She agreed and apologized very profusely and promised to never do again. I spent about 40 days and nights not sleeping with my stomach in my chest. Just working out everyday. Saw my whole life flashing before my eyes. But incredibly months of time (and no actual proof of ****ing) made it subside.

Edited January 12, 2017 by rocky2marie

[rocky2marie]

With the counselor have you explained to your wife how she has made you feel? While sick? While getting drunk in Vegas? Etc?

 

What are you bringing up during counseling that can get resolved to make you both feel closer again?

 

It IS up to YOU to bring up your concerns so you can all work THROUGH them to the other side. How are you participating during the counseling sessions? What assignments has the counselor given you two? What have you both done with those assignments?

 

 

 

I've brought up as much as I could handle. The problem is I hear things I don't want to and become very reactive. i.e.: "I need to flirt" "I'm getting older and want attention from OS". "If in a perfect world where you wouldn't be affected I'd like to experience falling in love again. But I'd never actually do it" ?? And the therapist treats this as just all just very normal and modern. Maybe it is. For me it's like having my feet burned with hot irons and I start hyperventilating and just want to get a divorce or revenge cheat. We've since just stopped talking about "sexuality outside the marriage" Counselor has only told us to not cheat or hardcore flirt for the time being! And to watch out for and try to define patterns -- "the cycle" he calls it, of when she does things that trigger me and vice versa and we spiral downward.

Edited January 12, 2017 by rocky2marie

[rocky2marie]

The vibe that really both counselor and my wife have established re: me is that I'm overreacting to ghosts and should just accept the reality of my wife as a whole person -- a sexual creature with eyes and desires beyond the marriage. They both are fairly exasperated about how after many sessions I can't get past things she's said, done... even though no proof of cheating is on the table.

[Chaparral]

What have you done to verify her truthfulness? Have you ever caught her lying?

 

Did you use a voice activated recorder in her car and at home when you are not there? GPS her car?

 

Sorry, I can't remember if this has already come up on this thread.

 

Ever had any sudden changes in sex life? More or less? Does she often tell you she loves you? Consistently?

[rocky2marie]

What have you done to verify her truthfulness? Have you ever caught her lying?

 

Did you use a voice activated recorder in her car and at home when you are not there? GPS her car?

 

Sorry, I can't remember if this has already come up on this thread.

 

Ever had any sudden changes in sex life? More or less? Does she often tell you she loves you? Consistently?

 

 

 

Well let's see:

 

No I haven't done a voice activated recorder or GPS.

Yes there was a sudden massive change in our sex life for the better.

And yes she tells me she loves me multiple times a day. All the time. That's been more or less consistent.

[Jersey born raised]

Hi,

 

I meant to say keep alert, keep probing but covertly.

 

Your MC are you sure you provided full content of what they said? Was it balanced with while it might be a part of human nature it up to us to chose which part of human nature to follow? That a choice to engage in adultery rest only on the WS. That the aftermath is always a damage marriage almost always destroyed. That it not only destroys the BS but children as well. That it damages friendships and finally, of least importance, the financial set backs?

 

Rocky I am challenging you here. I hear you and if you where to say I am separating and divorcing today, based on what you shared I would say you need to.

 

But you need to answer this post and my comment about one sided hidden agreements. Do your WS think she was in a monogamous relationship. Did you just think before engaging "we agreed to disagree" so there is no issue?

 

None of these actions justify her actions. NONE OF THEM! They do however need to be addressed.

[rocky2marie]

Not sure about one sided arrangements. The person she was seeing from AA sent her an email a year or so ago inviting both she and i to his and his wife's Xmas party. Her reply was that if I was in town (I work out of town freelance) we would likely have our own party....But if I was OUT of town then sure she'd definitely love to come and bring my son and so on. So she knows both he and his wife. Anyway it speaks to the platonicness of the whole thing I guess. His inclusive email seemed to uphold it. But yeah I've brought this all up in therapy. Therapist was non plussed. Acknowledged that the fact that she didn't tell me about this person for six years was fishy but that I essentially brought it on myself for telling her "no Male friends in AA" which both wife and therapist saw as me being paranoid.

Edited January 13, 2017 by rocky2marie

[Jersey born raised]

Er AA itself I believes is very cautious about OS friends. If I am right, again right, your MC needs to go. Third strike she's out.

 

But again I need to ask for context. Did she share with your wife what the guidelines with your wife and you why AA discourage OS friends outside of group sessions. (Again if I am right). Did she she establish with your wife and you what those guidelines where, how your wife kept them and how she broke them. Did she discuss how breaking them would cause anyone to doubt?

 

Again context please.

[rocky2marie]

Er AA itself I believes is very cautious about OS friends. If I am right, again right, your MC needs to go. Third strike she's out.

 

But again I need to ask for context. Did she share with your wife what the guidelines with your wife and you why AA discourage OS friends outside of group sessions. (Again if I am right). Did she she establish with your wife and you what those guidelines where, how your wife kept them and how she broke them. Did she discuss how breaking them would cause anyone to doubt?

 

Again context please.

 

 

It's obviously been discussed that her not telling me about OS AA friend was a breach of trust. But my wife is very convincing -- and she simply blames me. "I was afraid because i knew he'd be jealous"

"Things weren't good at the time with us in general"

"It was literally nothing. About as significant an acquaintance as...(friend's husband or friend of ours together)

 

She said spoke to him a few times in 2010. Went to a few meetings with him. Then kept in touch over Facebook primarily and never saw him again until three years later at one of our sons soccer games. (his kid was in the league) She even introduced me to him -- but not as a "my friend from AA" I thought nothing of it just assumed he was dad of one of the kids. Then I saw her text to him in dec 2015 "What's your address? I made xmas cards this year. Can't wait to send you one xo"

Seemed like more than just an acquaintance.

 

She got very pissed off over me snooping into her email first off. Then about not wanting her to have her own male friends in general (that aren't friends of both of us) Not really true. Just be nice to ****ing KNOW their names.

"I had mostly male friends before we met. You weren't into that so I dropped them all." Which if it's true was an overreaction. I never told her not to have guy friends. Just wanted to know who they were.

So she said she resented it. And at the time, just starting out in AA and still hating me, she decided to rebel and just have guy friends in the program. I just didn't find out until six years later.