My wife's contempt and resentment

[Downtown]

I think there is some validity in the mention of borderline personality disorder. If it makes you uncomfortable, you don't have to think about it as a "pathology" per se, but reading about the etiology of it, the mechanisms that are used to protect the ego, the "whys" will be enlightening, I think.

Good point, Lily. Cumber, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it. As Lily recognizes, BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot -- especially after you've been married for ten years -- because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

[dreamingoftigers]

Well, if you tried counselling and it failed....unless it was a piss poor counselor, I would say it is over. Talk to a lawyer, separate your finances, etc. Time to find a loving partner for the rest of your life.

 

 

I am sure your children will understand, having seen the abuse you presumably put up with every day. You do not want them growing up thinking that that abuse is a "normal" marriage. By not leaving, you might be dooming them to follow in your footsteps?

 

A lot of MC IS piss-poor.

 

Try EFT counseling. They have an 80% success rate. You can always hire a sitter.

[dreamingoftigers]

As well, The Verbally Abusive Relationship could be helpful to both of you regarding your footing in the relationship.

[Southern Sun]

Disclaimer: I am not a professional. BUT - I've read some theories out there that some believe that Cluster B disorders (NPD, BPD, and the like) are on a spectrum, so those diagnosed (or who should be) may exhibit symptoms of many of the disorders. We may try to classify someone as "BPD" for the sake of discussion, but then see that they also do a lot of "NPD" things, as well as Histrionic (as an example). I thought it might be important to point this out, in case the OP starts seeing things that don't line up with one disorder or the next and throws the baby out with the bath water.

 

I think generally, if a person meets the criteria for a Cluster B disorder, they tend MORE towards a specific one. But then they will throw some other coping mechanism at ya, which is characteristic of a different disorder, depending upon the circumstances and that particular person's make-up. The spectrum.

 

When I read the OP's description of his wife, yes I hear BPD. But I also hear NPD.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Folks, after reading the OP's posts and the replies of people here there is only one thing I want to know. What is the OP going to do to resolve his issue? It is clear he is in an unhealthy relationship and it bodes no good for him to keep sticking it out. The fundamental issue at stake here is that the OP's wife treats him badly, emotionally, and inspite of all his own faults which he has candidly enumerated here, he does not deserve any of it. Blues Power has laid it out clearly for him. He has to take a firm decision rather than dithering because it seems to me his wife is not likely to change. The OP himself has said that were it not for his children he would have left by now. I think a number of people have made it clear to the OP that living apart from his wife will in no way adversely impact his children and in fact, will be much more healthy for them in all respects than the situation they are in at the moment.

 

The fact is that this whole thread seems to have evolved into an academic discussion on BPD, NPD and what have you but is in no way pointing the OP in the direction he needs to go and provide him the rationale that he needs, to take decisive action. My own opinion is that the OP needs to tighten his belt and do what is obviously necessary to free himself and move on to a healthier life for himself. He does not need to be imprisoned by his wife in an unloving and unhealthy marriage. Warm wishes.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Just a Guy

[Cephalopod]

Thank You Lilypad,

 

However I put it, she perceives criticism as a personal attack. She is especially defensive of her matriarchal role - she takes motherhood VERY seriously. There isn't really any discussion. If I do what you suggest and steer the conversation to make her think it through herself and 'come to the right conclusion', her spider-senses go off and she immediately thinks I'm manipulating her, or she throws her arms up saying "you always have to be right/go against what I say".

 

This relates to other issue I eluded to; she seems to think I'm conspiring against her. So even the slightest and most tentative suggestion that she might change the way she does things is taken as me undermining her and sowing doubt, even trying to make her look bad in front of the children.

 

This is really one of the main things that is wearing me down. Being regarded as a saboteur or a manipulator is hurtful. Call me a delicate snowflake, but when I make a suggestion, even if it's a stupid one, I want my partner to think "well that's a stupid suggestion, BUT, his heart is in the right place". She can call me pathetic or selfish or mean, but the implication I'm actually 'out to get her' is like a kick in the guts because it undermines the small amount of hope I have for our future. I'm just fed up with it now.

 

I'm ranting again lol

 

 

Given the way she treats you, her black and white thinking, and the way she uses shame and contempt to manipulate and control you, I agree with the others that it sounds like she may have a personality disorder.

 

I would agree she is in the Borderline Personality Disorder/Narcissistic Personality Disorder spectrum. If she is, there is no fixing her. Personality disorder is hardwired into the person.

 

Also, the fact that her family has told you that she was always hard to get along with, even as a child, seems to support this theory.

 

Download and read as much about Borderline Personality Disorder as you can. Educate yourself.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Cephalopod

[fireflywy]

Read the book "Attached: The New Science of Relationships" and read the chapters on the love avoidant. Some of the things you mentioned sound like they may fit from her basically treating you like an enemy to her mother demanding cheers and accolades for babysitting which play into this attachment style (the overbearing parent.)

 

Good book which opened my eyes a few years ago.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Folks, how is this theorizing going to help the OP move on? He needs to take proactive steps to help himself and get out of an unhealthy and debilitating relationship. Once he does that his wife will realize that she was the one who drove him out of the marriage and then she will hopefully do something to address her issues. I don't think the OP can get involved in getting her treated for something so deep seated and intractable. He could spend the rest of his life doing that. Also, this is a gift she brought to the marriage, not something that transpired or afflicted in the course of her marriage or because of it. So I would think his vows would not hold him down to sticking it out in the marriage. I guess the ball is in OP's court.

[darkmoon]

so stop criticizing her! she is obviously fed up with it

[Poe77]

What she is afraid of me seeing is her text conversations with her mum, her friends, my mum, about how horrible I am to her and how lazy, controlling etc etc. And she is always suspicious of my own phone because she thinks I'm doing the same about her (which I assure you I'm not).

 

 

 

 

Directly speaking to her parents reveals they don't know what to do. "She has always been difficult to live with" they say. In the back of my mind I wonder if they suspect some issues but are in denial and always have been.

 

 

The catch here is that in becoming a better man, I am starting to have better expectations of my marriage as well.

 

Im sorry but your kinda contradicting yourself there so are you or are you not talking about her behind her back?...im not saying that shes not in the wrong here but its a two way street relationships dont start to unravel for zero reason it takes two to fuel the fires of resentment.

 

And so far all I keep hearing is how you believe yourself to be the model man and shes just a big old bully...So im sorry but I call shenanigans! unless she is truly mentally unwell? and in that case I ask you why haven't you addressed that directly? especially if there are kids involved?

 

No what ever has brought this marriage to the point its at now is on both your shoulders and unless you realize this and start taking some responsibility as well nothing will change..

[stillafool]

How is your sex life?

[Southern Sun]

Hi Folks, after reading the OP's posts and the replies of people here there is only one thing I want to know. What is the OP going to do to resolve his issue? It is clear he is in an unhealthy relationship and it bodes no good for him to keep sticking it out. The fundamental issue at stake here is that the OP's wife treats him badly, emotionally, and inspite of all his own faults which he has candidly enumerated here, he does not deserve any of it. Blues Power has laid it out clearly for him. He has to take a firm decision rather than dithering because it seems to me his wife is not likely to change. The OP himself has said that were it not for his children he would have left by now. I think a number of people have made it clear to the OP that living apart from his wife will in no way adversely impact his children and in fact, will be much more healthy for them in all respects than the situation they are in at the moment.

 

The fact is that this whole thread seems to have evolved into an academic discussion on BPD, NPD and what have you but is in no way pointing the OP in the direction he needs to go and provide him the rationale that he needs, to take decisive action. My own opinion is that the OP needs to tighten his belt and do what is obviously necessary to free himself and move on to a healthier life for himself. He does not need to be imprisoned by his wife in an unloving and unhealthy marriage. Warm wishes.

 

In my opinion, having some evidence that she likely has a PD, which is extraordinarily difficult to treat, is simply more ammunition he can use to support an exit to the marriage. Some might think this would give us a reason to have sympathy for her, but it does not. She absolutely knows what she's doing and has the ability to control her behaviors. She just does not because it is what works for her and always has. It is deeply ingrained.

 

She will probably never change.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Southern Sun

[Calmandfocused]

Thank you for considering and answering my questions op. I think I've got a bit more of the picture.

 

What I read, wasn't what I was expecting. I thought you was going to tell us something that you'd "done" to harm her. That certainly wasn't the case. Instead you listed your flaws as a human being. That's ok, we all have them. know that it's ok not to perfect. Also know that we don't deserve to be emotionally abused if we're not perfect.

 

On the basis of what you've said, I think you need to take a step back and look at your self-value and self-worth. Within this, you need to understand why you've let her treat you disrespectfully for so long. Find your self respect and re-assert your boundaries with her. Make it clear what you will and won't tolerate and make sure she understands the consequences (e.g divorce) if she continues. Make sure you follow through with any promises that you have delivered to show you mean buisness.

 

Please don't let anyone treat you this way. Value yourself and what you have to offer. You sound like a fundamental decent and hardworking man. Make sure you give your love to those who appreciate you.

[CommittedToThis]

Hi Folks, how is this theorizing going to help the OP move on?

 

I think OP needs to consider if his W is personality disordered or if there are other issues; if she's disordered, he'll know there's not a lot he can do to change things. If she's not disordered, then there's hope they can work thru the roots of her resentment.

 

I've said mean things to her, of course. We get into arguments where after being called selfish and pathetic and being sneered at for days on end, I'll drop a bomb like "you're a real bitch" or something.

 

People with PDs are known to provoke their partners in order to justify their own behaviors ie. your W will call you "pathetic" and provoke a reaction from you. When you react (as most people would) she can then tell herself, "He's an arse, listen to him react!"

 

It's a bitter and endless cycle, I've been thru 10 years with someone with Cluster B traits. I finally left after I'd exhausted every avenue of saving the relationship. There was no getting thru to her.

 

Wishing you the best.

[Lady2163]

I will take the other side for just a moment.

 

I was an extremely kind, generous and giving person before I got married. A good example is: when I was in high school parents started mainstreaming their kids with disabilities. My school probably had 250 girls and I was asked to be the helper for the first girl with disabilities. She was a year ahead of me and it was a three year gig. Her sister didn't even help her. I'm just saying, that's who I was.

 

My exH destroyed that person. And it wasn't because he was an abuser. He was neglectful, lazy and selfish. He will even admit it now. It took him seven years to turn me into a frigid shrew.

 

We weren't cutting it at lower middle class. Which means we were lower class, we were poor. Through most of marriage I always had a second job or a second way of making income. Kind people get asked to babysit. Kind people do draw a line and asked to be paid to babysit.

 

Eventually, I decided probably 18 months to two years before our marriage ended that I wanted to quit working and go to school full time. I had internships coming up in my program of study. They required time. I got paid to go to school (veterans benefits) and in theory we weren't losing much money. It was also something we eased into. Full time work, part time work, one shift a week, then nothing.

 

He refused to step up and work harder. He constantly lied about if there was overtime at his job. He turned down extra hours EVERY WEEK. He hid money and sacrificed NOTHING. If there wasn't any food in the house or we were having eggs and toast for the hundredth time he'd say he wasn't hungry (because he's eaten out for lunch) or casually go to his mother's after supper. And eat again. Then he would hide leftovers in his car or his refrigerator at work.

 

If he did the grocery shopping he'd come home from the store with everything he'd want for himself, but my preferences would either be missing or turn into the generic brand. We both drank soda. He would buy his name brand diet soda and tell me we needed to cut back. Here was my generic soda.

 

Those are just a couple of examples, but I wanted to ask you, are you possibly setting her up to fail?

 

I'd ask my husband if could go to the corner store and get me three packs of cigarettes (yes, I know nasty habit). He'd come back with one pack of my usual and one pack of generic. So, even though I was swamped with school and internship, the one errand he could do that would last me five days, now was probably only good for two days. I'd still have to do it myself.

 

"What? I got you your cigarettes, just like you asked."

 

Well, no....you really didn't.

 

And that was my life. I could only expect 33% effort on anything. So, I couldn't depend on him. I felt more like his mommy than his wife. Only his mommy wasn't close to starving. Again, I turned into a bitter person and I was a victim for many years of awful boyfriends after the marriage ended.

 

It wasn't done with abuse and hostility (for the most part), it was all neglect.

 

So, are you comfortable saying that this is all on your wife? Are you doing everything you can to provide enough salary? Are you helping out 50% around the house? Without being told of reminded 50 times? Are you an active adult in the house or another kid to take care of? Yes, I know you work, but real life can cause adult interactions to be reduced to almost caretakers rather than partners.

 

To be honest, chances are it is your wife and she is going through something and has had problems her whole life. Her parents saying they could never make her happy is the statement that caught my attention.

 

 

I just wanted you to not have to make the call my ex did 20 years after our divorce (hey....I'm sorry I was an ******* and a lousy husband). It was good to hear, but I think he did damage that won't be repaired.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Lady2163

[Downtown]

How is this theorizing going to help the OP move on?

Just, we are not discussing theory. You are confusing our discussion of behavioral symptoms (which are based on real-world observations) with determination of the underlying cause (which is based on theory because the cause itself is yet unproven). I would be surprised if you find, in this thread or other threads discussing BPD, more than a sentence or two discussing the current theory on causation.

 

The fact is that this whole thread seems to have evolved into an academic discussion on BPD, NPD.... He needs to take proactive steps to help himself and get out of an unhealthy and debilitating relationship.

The OP asked "How does one deal with this issue?" The answer depends heavily on what type of issue it is that he and his children dealing with. That's why we had the BPD/NPD discussion you are now objecting to. If Cumber's W exhibits three-fourths of the 18 BPD warning signs, as he reports, there are a number of "proactive steps" -- as you say -- he should be taking. I haven't suggested any steps because Cumber left a week ago and hasn't returned. Yet, because you asked, I will give a brief outline of steps (i.e., actions) I would recommend:

The first step

, Cumber, is to see a psychologist to obtain a candid professional opinion on whether your

W

is exhibiting strong BPD traits as you believe. This is important because the latest study on BPD heritability indicates that, when one Parent has full-blown BPD, each child has roughly a 30% chance of developing it. As a responsible parent, your first action should be to determine the risk confronting your children.

 

Second

, consult with a divorce attorney who is experienced in dealing with child custody cases against a very vindictive spouse. If your

W

is a BPDer, the divorce and custody battle likely be get very nasty very quickly. It would be prudent to supplement that advice with tips offered by the book,

Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist

.

 

Third

, start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com, which offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful are the

"

Detaching from a Borderline

"

board and

"

Co-Parenting after the Split

"

board.

 

Fourth

, while you're at BPDfamily, read the articles:

Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD

and

Leaving a Partner with BPD

. At other websites, I recommend these online articles:

Fathers Divorcing

, and

High Risk Parenting

, and

Pain of Breaking Up

, and

Divorcing a Narcissist

.

 

Fifth

, read an explanation of how we excessive caregivers get to be this way during our childhood. The best explanation I've found is Shari Schreiber's article,

Do You Love to be Needed?

Schreiber argues that, due to childhood dynamics with parents, our desire to be

needed

(for what we can do) FAR exceeds our desire to be

loved

(for the men we already are). If you've been married to a BPDer for 10 years, you almost certainly are an excessive caregiver like me.

 

Sixth

, if you believe your

W

has strong BPD traits, do not try to persuade her of that. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a

MC

) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

 

Finally

, please don't forget those of us on this LoveShack forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Down town, thank you for your response. I do not doubt your sincerity in trying to help the OP. However it seemed to me that various people were chipping in with various descriptions of PD and this was getting rather involved whereas no one was advising the OP in simple terms as to what he should do to help himself. If all he has had to say is true and there are no hidden agendas which he has then he has to figure out a way to separate from his wife keeping the interests of his children in mind and also being compassionate toward his wife in doing so.

 

It seemed to me that the OP was not getting the advice he needed which is why I posted accordingly. Maybe that is one of the reasons he has made himself scarce. I would think that the OP has to face the issues head on which he had probably avoided doing for so long. This may have emboldened his wife to up the ante and behave even more d3vilishly and I am not sure if the last straw on the camel's back level has been reached or not. If it has'nt it must be pretty close for the OP to have sought help and advice here. I think the scenario that Lady 2163 painted does not apply in the case of the OP. I say this because he had been candid about his own shortcomings. In her husband's case he seemed to be an escapist and I don't think he ever admitted his own shortcomings while he ESD married to her. Lady 2163, I do hope you have found happiness and contentment now after all these years. It would be a tragedy if you did not. Warm wishes to all.

[Cumberdale]

Hello everyone (a month later) and thank you for all the replies. I got a little bit uncomfortable with the direction this was going with regard to personality disorders and the like. I really don't want to label it as that. She may well have some anxiety problems that I don't even know about, but as I've stated, so do I. It took me weeks to work up the courage to even start running because I imagined passers-by smirking as a Homer Simpson lookalike went lolloping up the street. I overcame that by going out at 5.30am to begin with.

 

I've thought a lot about the way forward and decided that at the very least what I can do is address some of the issues I know I have. Money management is one, and trying to be a more confident father. I honestly have been doing a lot of the self improvement because I know it boosts my confidence - and I find myself more able to just 'be myself' when I'm with my wife and children and not be constantly second guessing each word and move I make, lest I be chastised. This also comes with the risk of slipping into a "**** you" attitude but as that's not really my nature I've managed to catch myself

 

I'm working on it in other words. Things have to improve. I don't want to break up the family home, I don't want to let my children down, I don't want to bail out when we have achieved so much over 10 years (we've overcome obstacles that I don't even want to disclose here - nothing of our own making just fyi) But I do want to feel like I am wanted in my home, rather than in the way.

[Ronni_W]

I honestly have been doing a lot of the self improvement because I know it boosts my confidence -

Actually, that is the best reason to develop your necessary life skills and to do self-improvement -- to expand your own positive sense of self.

 

We also do absolutely need to develop and maintain the attitude that we know best what are our intentions, motivations, likes, dislikes, personal nature, etc.; and, we do need to be willing to defend who we are to others.

 

When an adult feels 'chastised', the problem is actually within that person's own psyche. The more self-exploration you do, the more you will come to know who you are as an adult; and, the less you will suffer or tolerate other people's projections and wrong beliefs, understanding and attitudes about you.

 

Congrats on all your efforts to date, and best of luck in the future.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Cumberdale, good to have you back and giving an update on your progress. It seems you have definitely made progress and are well on your way to a changed personality. How has your wife's reaction been to the changes in attitude that you have achieved? Is she appreciative of it and the work that you have done or is she still the same old person she was before you achieved your improvements? If the latter then I think there is little hope for you and your marriage. If you are not prepared to make any drastic changes in your family situation then I guess you will just have to suck up what she is dishing out and carry on regardless but with a low happiness coefficient. If her reaction is the former of the two then there is definitely hope for your relationship and you should continue to do the good work. Remember a marriage is a partnership which has to be nurtured and fed by both the people involved. You cannot carry the burden alone as if she does not do her bit then everything you do will be wasted effort. I think you would be keenly aware of this and it needs no emphasizing.

 

Remember, your happiness is entirely dependent on you and your wife is not responsible for it. However she has to chip in and make circumstances amenable for you to create your happiness. If she continuously throws a spanner in the works the despite your best efforts you will never be happy. Choose wisely what your next course of action should be. Warm wishes.

[Nothingtolose]

I don't have a lot of advice for you, aside from what's already been given, just wanted to say that I relate to your post.

 

I'm not married but live with my partner and although he is not often contemptuous towards me on our regular day to day interactions, as soon as we get into any kind of argument/fight, he becomes defensive, rolls eyes, calls me stupid, gets easily angered, and thinks I'm plotting against him or am playing the victim every time I open my mouth. I could be in tears during the fight (or in our room after a fight) and he'll never try to be a friend or comfort me, he'll just get even more angered and say I'm playing the victim.

 

It's exhausting and I feel your pain.