Low sex partner in affair. Fresh d-day

[MJJean]

What does true remorse look like?

 

True remorse is much more focused on you and much less focused on her.

 

Right now, she's thinking of her. Her pain. Her shame if people find out. Her possibly losing her home and whatever else she has that she wouldn't have any longer in the event of a divorce, including security, which is very important to women. If/when she lets that go and becomes focused on you and your pain, etc., then you know she's feeling remorse.

 

I didn't quote the other posts I read, but I did want to make a few comments from the perspective of a former WW.

 

Most WS's minimize the sexual attraction and their sexual enjoyment when they speak to their spouses. This might not be the case with your wife if she is indeed a very low drive person. However, it's also possible she is just LD with you. The heart and the body don't always agree on romantic partner.

 

Imagine being a WW. Would you feel comfortable telling your H that you were having mind blowing sex with your AP knowing such a statement could be enough to make him rescind his reconciliation offer or make reconciling and future life together even more difficult, if not impossible? Perhaps not, eh?

 

Being able to get off easily isn't necessarily a sign of love, attraction, or skill. I wasn't attracted to my exH physically (long story), I certainly wasn't in love with him, and he wasn't the most skilled partner by a mile, but I could get off with him easily and didn't have a problem using him for sex in a pinch.

 

You have access to their electronic communications, but not what was said and done in person. You will NEVER, ever, ever, ever, have the full story. That's just the nature of the beast. You may get most of it, but getting it all is impossible. There is just too much to an intimate relationship for a person to remember every detail of what was said and done, much less remember accurately under emotional duress and explain it to someone else.

 

As for her "affairing down", well, that's a matter of opinion and not everyone would agree. Plenty of beauties fall for beasts. Attraction is a physical, chemical, thing. We can't choose who we find sexually appealing. It just is what it is.

 

I'm old enough (in my 40's) that I have seen friends marry and divorce and remarry. Seen many of them have affairs, too. A lot of them seem to have "affaired down" or "traded down" and yet are more satisfied and much happier than they were with the partner who seemed like a better catch "on paper" according to the standards of society. Attraction isn't logical.

 

As other posters have mentioned, there are compatibility issues in your marriage. It seems like you are in limbo, but leaning toward reconciling. Before you get too far into that process, and it is a lifelong process, you may want to sit back for a bit and contemplate those incompatibilities. Just because two people may love each other doesn't mean they are a good match.

Edited February 2, 2017 by MJJean

[AnneP]

Man, I'm just going to hand it to you like I see it and hope I don't offend you.

 

You have made so many excuses for your wife. You are treating her with child gloves. You "don't want to break her spirit?!"

 

This entire affair has become about HER feelings and needs and not about the fact that she made a conscious decision to step out and bang someone in YOUR HOME.

 

She's not showing remorse because she's whining about how she has become the person she never wanted to be. Her. Her. Her. Everything is all about HER. Has she always had a victim mentality? Have you always "fixed" things?

 

I feel like you're in a bit of denial here, which is completely natural given the circumstances, however you have to stop making excuses and stop allowing her to make excuses. You really think her reply that she had sex with him in your home wasn't a big deal because you were moving in a few months? That's a lousy excuse. There are just so many things going on.

 

You are actively enabling her by treating her like a victim. She isn't.

[Overtaxed]

Man, I'm just going to hand it to you like I see it and hope I don't offend you.

 

You have made so many excuses for your wife. You are treating her with child gloves. You "don't want to break her spirit?!"

 

This entire affair has become about HER feelings and needs and not about the fact that she made a conscious decision to step out and bang someone in YOUR HOME.

 

She's not showing remorse because she's whining about how she has become the person she never wanted to be. Her. Her. Her. Everything is all about HER. Has she always had a victim mentality? Have you always "fixed" things?

 

I feel like you're in a bit of denial here, which is completely natural given the circumstances, however you have to stop making excuses and stop allowing her to make excuses. You really think her reply that she had sex with him in your home wasn't a big deal because you were moving in a few months? That's a lousy excuse. There are just so many things going on.

 

You are actively enabling her by treating her like a victim. She isn't.

 

Didn't offend me at all, thank you for saying it. There are a lot of things going on, that's for sure! And I'm not sure I'm in denial of what happened, just in denial that my wife actually did it and denial because I don't understand how she has this in her. But she does, I know it happened, it just doesn't "compute" with the rest of her, and the years we spent together. I can't tie the two together.

 

I, like many I suspect, really am in the "I don't know what to do" stage. And I have a lot of options in front of me, more than most I suspect. On one hand, there's the nuclear option (the first thing that came to mind). I have proof that this occurred when they were both supposed to be working. My wife has a morality clause in her employment contract, this would certainly violate it. I suspect the AP does as well, he works for a very large, very conservative company. Short version, I could probably get them both fired. Then I could turn to family and friends, sending over all the electronic evidence (which includes pictures) and probably burn all those bridges (friends, almost all her friends are my friends too) and forever change the way her family views her. Finally, I could file for divorce and follow the prenup to the letter, leaving her with very little, no job, no car (it's in my name) and no house.

 

Thing is, what the heck does that accomplish if we both intend to R? Sure, I'll feel better (a LOT better) and I will have served justice to both the people who did so much damage to 2 families. But then what? R after the D? Or stop the D midstream, after I've burned all her bridges, and wind up with an unemployable wife (no references will be available if I go "full nuke")? Again, to what end?

 

On the other side, I could have seen the evidence of the A, stopped all investigation (what I initially found was the tip of the iceberg) had her come home and said "I forgive you" with no details, no fights, no throwing her out of the house.

 

I'm trying to walk between the 2. I don't want to destroy her life, especially if we R; it's cutting off my nose to spite my face. I also don't want to rug sweep, I will get a full confession of the details that matter to me or she will be leaving.

 

Yes, her answer to why she brought him back to our house is BS. But, honestly, I'm not sure what a "real" answer would look like. "Because I didn't GAF"? Probably better. She also said it's because she thought the marriage was over anyway, so what difference did it make. This is also BS, because, while it was going on, we were actively (well, she made it look like she was, I actually was) trying to fix things. It wasn't like we'd set a divorce date and were just living under the same roof. I'm not sure there's an acceptable answer other than "I wasn't thinking" (which is probably, at the end of the day, the real answer).

 

I hear what you say about treating her like a victim, I do. I've changed this and have been much more direct with her in our last conversations, she's starting to see the shift and say "I'm sorry" (with feeling) more and more often. But, and this is likely to get me flamed to death, affairs don't happen in a vacuum. Was it my fault? Absolutely not. Did she have some real issues with how our marriage was going (as did I), yes, she did. That doesn't excuse what she did, but, when we talk, I do think it's important to hear her side of how things went so wrong that this could happen.

 

Don't worry about hurting my feelings; nothing can touch me after this! I really appreciate all the viewpoints, keep them coming and don't use the kid gloves on me, I can take it.

[AnneP]

Yes. She should have said "because I was thinking of no one but myself. It was a horrible thing to do and I am sincerely sorry. That was one of the lowest things I could have done to you."

 

That is remorse. And she should be on her knees begging for your forgiveness.

 

Sounds like you're giving this a lot of thought. That's a good thing. You need to take control of this situation.

 

Didn't offend me at all, thank you for saying it. There are a lot of things going on, that's for sure! And I'm not sure I'm in denial of what happened, just in denial that my wife actually did it and denial because I don't understand how she has this in her. But she does, I know it happened, it just doesn't "compute" with the rest of her, and the years we spent together. I can't tie the two together.

 

I, like many I suspect, really am in the "I don't know what to do" stage. And I have a lot of options in front of me, more than most I suspect. On one hand, there's the nuclear option (the first thing that came to mind). I have proof that this occurred when they were both supposed to be working. My wife has a morality clause in her employment contract, this would certainly violate it. I suspect the AP does as well, he works for a very large, very conservative company. Short version, I could probably get them both fired. Then I could turn to family and friends, sending over all the electronic evidence (which includes pictures) and probably burn all those bridges (friends, almost all her friends are my friends too) and forever change the way her family views her. Finally, I could file for divorce and follow the prenup to the letter, leaving her with very little, no job, no car (it's in my name) and no house.

 

Thing is, what the heck does that accomplish if we both intend to R? Sure, I'll feel better (a LOT better) and I will have served justice to both the people who did so much damage to 2 families. But then what? R after the D? Or stop the D midstream, after I've burned all her bridges, and wind up with an unemployable wife (no references will be available if I go "full nuke")? Again, to what end?

 

On the other side, I could have seen the evidence of the A, stopped all investigation (what I initially found was the tip of the iceberg) had her come home and said "I forgive you" with no details, no fights, no throwing her out of the house.

 

I'm trying to walk between the 2. I don't want to destroy her life, especially if we R; it's cutting off my nose to spite my face. I also don't want to rug sweep, I will get a full confession of the details that matter to me or she will be leaving.

 

Yes, her answer to why she brought him back to our house is BS. But, honestly, I'm not sure what a "real" answer would look like. "Because I didn't GAF"? Probably better. She also said it's because she thought the marriage was over anyway, so what difference did it make. This is also BS, because, while it was going on, we were actively (well, she made it look like she was, I actually was) trying to fix things. It wasn't like we'd set a divorce date and were just living under the same roof. I'm not sure there's an acceptable answer other than "I wasn't thinking" (which is probably, at the end of the day, the real answer).

 

I hear what you say about treating her like a victim, I do. I've changed this and have been much more direct with her in our last conversations, she's starting to see the shift and say "I'm sorry" (with feeling) more and more often. But, and this is likely to get me flamed to death, affairs don't happen in a vacuum. Was it my fault? Absolutely not. Did she have some real issues with how our marriage was going (as did I), yes, she did. That doesn't excuse what she did, but, when we talk, I do think it's important to hear her side of how things went so wrong that this could happen.

 

Don't worry about hurting my feelings; nothing can touch me after this! I really appreciate all the viewpoints, keep them coming and don't use the kid gloves on me, I can take it.

[understand50]

Overtaxed,

 

I wrote this on another post, and here is the link. I think you may find it helpful. This topic was discussed, and I hope you will find the different takes to give you an idea. Remorse, can mean many things, but what you decide, and your WS, will be what helps you reconcile.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/609550-guilt-vs-remorse-vs-shame-relates-affairs

 

" All,

 

In the English language, Remorse means the following:

 

noun, deep and painful regret for wrongdoing; compunction.

 

So from a strictly literal grammatical point of view, remorse, is just a handy way of stating that you have regret, shame, guilt and so fourth for your actions. I think for us here, a larger meaning is evident. We have had many give their personal meaning from Mrs J.A, to Merrmeade, Shattered Lady, and others. Each has a take, and "knows" what this means, but in relating gives a twist.

 

Here is what I think, Remorse, true remorse, in the context of infidelity, or any action(s) that you have done to grievously wound your spouse, child or other family members, is the ability to look beyond yourself, your well being, and your own interests and feel the pain and hurt caused by your actions, and in so doing, begin to try and make things right to restore trust in an relationship. It is allowing the injured person to select what they need to heal, from you, and for you to supply it to the best of your understanding and ability. At it core, you place their needs above your own, and take on any discomfort, embarrassment, shame, security and loss of secrecy, that is needed to repair your and theirs relationship. You must lastly become an open book, and live mutually transparent with them.

 

Of course, there are limits. I would say, physical harm, or loss of human dignity should not be offered, or accepted, but the one who has trespassed, must be willing to put the other ahead of them in the relationship.

 

My two cents."

[BluesPower]

So lets say that you know everything that you need to know. Start, Finish?, Where, when, number of times they had sex, any special sex acts that she did for him and not you, lets say that you know all of it. OK.

 

Now, the why? Is it really valid that she really thought the marriage was over? What was she thinking when she brought him home to the house? In your bed? I mean WTF?

 

And, lets talk about the basically no sex. I mean lets just say that he is not as big as you are and it did not hurt her. OK, maybe that is valid. But not to be vulgar, but how much bigger than average could you be? I mean you guys have been married how long, and no matter what she did, she could not get used to your size? I am not saying that it does not happen, I have heard stories about it? But damn. I mean why be married is you are so sexually incompatible???

 

And you add to that the apparent religious and other issues that she has with sex.... Man I just don't know.

 

Yet apparently all that went out the window with the OM, and she was apparently was able to have plenty of sex with him. And, I don't buy the stuff that she was telling you about not enjoying it, I mean come on man.

 

So there is all that...

 

She lies to your face about everything, she does not seem to be remorseful, she trickle truths you about all of it until you almost kick her out...

 

Why are you trying to save this marriage? Have you written all of this down an looked at everything that she has done?

 

Why don't you do that, make a big long list of all the problems in the marriage, sexual problems, at least one affair that you know about, and on and on.

 

I mean is this what you want to deal with for the next however many years?

 

I just don't know...

[AnneP]

So lets say that you know everything that you need to know. Start, Finish?, Where, when, number of times they had sex, any special sex acts that she did for him and not you, lets say that you know all of it. OK.

 

Now, the why? Is it really valid that she really thought the marriage was over? What was she thinking when she brought him home to the house? In your bed? I mean WTF?

 

And, lets talk about the basically no sex. I mean lets just say that he is not as big as you are and it did not hurt her. OK, maybe that is valid. But not to be vulgar, but how much bigger than average could you be? I mean you guys have been married how long, and no matter what she did, she could not get used to your size? I am not saying that it does not happen, I have heard stories about it? But damn. I mean why be married is you are so sexually incompatible???

 

And you add to that the apparent religious and other issues that she has with sex.... Man I just don't know.

 

Yet apparently all that went out the window with the OM, and she was apparently was able to have plenty of sex with him. And, I don't buy the stuff that she was telling you about not enjoying it, I mean come on man.

 

So there is all that...

 

She lies to your face about everything, she does not seem to be remorseful, she trickle truths you about all of it until you almost kick her out...

 

Why are you trying to save this marriage? Have you written all of this down an looked at everything that she has done?

 

Why don't you do that, make a big long list of all the problems in the marriage, sexual problems, at least one affair that you know about, and on and on.

 

I mean is this what you want to deal with for the next however many years?

 

I just don't know...

 

Agree. And they don't even have kids. What the hell is going on here? I know you're not a wuss. You clearly were assertive enough to get her to sign a pre-nup. Find your spine and stand up to her. Women do not find this behavior attractive. She doesn't respect you for excusing her behavior. You're also showing her how easy she can get away with this in the future.

 

I've said all along you seem like a nice guy and are trying to make sense of everything. Sometimes betrayal doesn't make sense. And, you keep saying this is so out of character. Apparently it's not. It's who she is. She is capable of dragging a married man into YOUR home and having sex with him. She's not who you thought she was or she's changed. You need to come to terms with the fact that she isn't at all who you thought she was and stop pretending she's who she used to be. She's shown you what she's capable of.

[hestheone66]

I had a lovely husband who was quite devoted. We were childhood sweethearts and married young.

No real problems except he lacked self esteem and was unhappy in his work that took him away from me and 2 small children.

 

Short version I ended up in an affair..my AP and I more sexually compatible and intellectually engaging...

 

I admitted affair without prior suspicion.

 

I was truly remorseful of the hurt I had caused. He told his family what I'd done.

 

We broke up because I didn't deserve him and I was ashamed of myself.. although he was more than keen to forgive and move on.

 

I ended up with the toxic AP for more years than I should as I needed to be punished for my sins (I had been devoutly religious up until this affair)

 

I guess I am suggesting it may not be you needing to make the choice. If she loves you she may set you free..

He went on to have other children and we maintain a friendly tone with each other... forgiveness and marital reconciliation are not the same thing

[road]

I feel so awful for you. Don't spend years unhappy with her. You're 40? You're still very young and have plenty of time to meet someone who loves you and will treat you right. I'm 39 and my H and I have been separated for 2 years (living apart 1.5 years) and trust me, there are other people out there. We have decided to try to reconcile and it's so difficult. Neither of us stepped out of the marriage, but just dealing with the fact that I did date someone else for a year is hard for him. I know it is. Cannot imagine how difficult it is for someone dealing with a cheating/lying spouse.

 

Dated as in had sex with this OM?

People confuse not being able to get sued on the grounds for divorce because

they were separated at the time so that the BH will not feel that his WW

had an affair.

 

 

Sadly the reality is that the BH will feel that his WW "did" have an affair.

Point is many WW's ask for a separation because they have an OM lined

up or already in place to replace their BH.

 

 

If you got to date the divorce first. For recovery is hard enough without

making a husband feel he was a BH.

[road]

"Best friends" - that's what my H and I lived as for years. Sex dwindled to nothing and we just kept going. Prior to our problems starting, we had a very healthy sex life and I enjoyed it and wanted it. I became unhappy and just stopped wanting sex. I know for me, antidepressants contributed to the changes in my in major ways. There are parts of my personality that have changed and I'm feeling like it's a permanent thing. I know your wife is taking antidepressants as well and probably needs them, but I would suggest you going with her to her psychiatrist and asking questions about what she's taking and alternatives. You said she had stopped taking them and went back on them. Often times when an A/D is stopped and restarted it doesn't have the same effect as it did before. Maybe she should consider a visit to her psychiatrist to explore other alternatives.

 

I hate that you have to think about pre-nups, post-nups, and whether she's worried about losing her lifestyle. That's an awful way to live. There are good women out there who don't think about money, don't want to spend it, and are just happy spending time with their H.

 

Had we divorced or if we divorce, my H would be required to pay me 5 years of alimony and A LOT of money in child support. When we separated, I asked him to please buy a home that was just as nice as mine and I would sign an agreement that he only had to pay me X amount instead of what the law required. I wanted him and my kids to have the same quality of life in both homes. Not every woman is out for money. The fact that this comes up SO OFTEN in your posts is a red flag to me.

 

And my H has a lot more earning power than I do. He's currently a director in a tech company and is going to be a CEO in a few years. I still refuse to drain him dry if it doesn't work out. That's not fair.

 

Making your BH buy a second expensive home is draining him dry.

Collecting the full amount under the law is draining him dry.

How about you get a job support yourself, move out and let your

BH have the house so you do not drain him dry?

[road]

Yes, we were both free to see whomever we wanted. He knew about the person I was seeing as it was a long distance relationship and I was completely honest with him.

 

Yes: religion has caused major guilt for me.

 

Being honest did not make it right because you were still married.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Anne and Overtaxed, I hope I haven't hijacked your thread OT, but I thought that this question of whether one was religious or not had a bearing on ones choices and attitudes as far as sex and by extrapolation, affairs are concerned. As you have said OT, your wife has always felt guilty about sex, may be subliminally, just because of her religious beliefs. On the other hand as Anne says, she too, is a Christian by belief, but that has not affected her indulgence and enjoyment of sex. This is the reason I say that a rigid belief in religious teachings without applying one's mind and at the same time having an open mind about ideas and the beliefs of others is paramount. I would go anytime with Anne's form of belief and being a Christian than some of the Christians that I have interacted with or seen in churches. There is such a narrow minded 'Us against them' attitude that they project that it just puts me off. Being Christian is not so much about following the Bible word for word as in displaying an attitude of charitableness toward your neighbour and upholding so called Christian values in your life. Most so called Christians are hypocrites much like the High Priests of the Temple that Christ talked about, referring to them as 'Whited Sepulchers'! I am sorry for this rant but I do believe that this is at the root of so many twisted thoughts and ideas that people accept and adopt in the name of being religious. This is, in my opinion , at the root of behaviours such as that displayed by your wife, which seem incongruous or incompatible with her core beliefs.

 

I think she may have had a suppressed neurosis due to her faulty beliefs which rebelled against her true nature and led her down such a destructive path. This is also probably the reason that she was not able to recognize what was happening with her, almost like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde syndrome where she was able to switch from one to the other personality, quite seamlessly. I guess in her Dr. Jekyll persona she was horrified by what she was doing because of her core beliefs but when she switched to her Mr. Hyde persona she was quite comfortable with her actions and deeds and there was no guilt. Maybe I am wrong in my assessment but if there is even the slightest chance of something like this having happened, it may be a good idea to have her undergo extensive therapy and also a weening away from a rigid belief about religious teachings. The Bible talks of original sin in the old Testament I think( not sure, haven't read my Bible in a long time) and I think sex ranks somewhere up there with it. The Bible also says that we are born in sin and I think this plays a very tragic part in moulding our way of thinking about ourselves and others. Women, traditionally, have been cast in an inferior position to men in the old Judaic tradition and the Christian faith has propagated this concept in spite of modern thinking which equates both men and women. This has resulted in women often feeling inferior to their partners and the resultant resentment sometimes causes them to rebel and do things which, in their heart of hearts, they know is wrong. I guess I better wind this up here as it seems I have actually hijacked your thread and changed it's direction. I apologize and please forgive me. Warm wishes.

[merrmeade]

Contrast this with the action Alive Again took when he found out that his wife had been trysting with her lover in their bed at home. He took the the whole paraphernalia out into the back yard and set it on fire.

Let's give credit where credit is due: The bed-burning episode was actually BetrayedH 's couch, attacked after his discovery of an internet post about his wife's first encounter with her AP on the family couch. I believe he then got good and drunk before coming home and burning it piece by piece in the yard. It was trying to remove her physically from the house that landed him a night in jail, however, since she had the fire dept and neighbors as witnesses.

[Chaparral]

Did you download the MMSLP book yet? It sure doesn't look like it.

 

What your problem is now is analysis paralysis. You're trying to justify hanging onto a marriage of incompatible people. Would you inflict this sort of pain on anyone else? Would you stab your best friend,or anyone else, in the back? Did she purposely hurt you? I think she did.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Merrmeade, thanks for correcting me. I guess I am getting woolly headed or slipping into Alzheimer's(Grin). In any case my point was made and subsequently addressed adequately I should think, by OT. Thanks anyway.

[Giacomo67]

So lets say that you know everything that you need to know. Start, Finish?, Where, when, number of times they had sex, any special sex acts that she did for him and not you, lets say that you know all of it. OK.

 

Now, the why? Is it really valid that she really thought the marriage was over? What was she thinking when she brought him home to the house? In your bed? I mean WTF?

 

And, lets talk about the basically no sex. I mean lets just say that he is not as big as you are and it did not hurt her. OK, maybe that is valid. But not to be vulgar, but how much bigger than average could you be? I mean you guys have been married how long, and no matter what she did, she could not get used to your size? I am not saying that it does not happen, I have heard stories about it? But damn. I mean why be married is you are so sexually incompatible???

 

And you add to that the apparent religious and other issues that she has with sex.... Man I just don't know.

 

Yet apparently all that went out the window with the OM, and she was apparently was able to have plenty of sex with him. And, I don't buy the stuff that she was telling you about not enjoying it, I mean come on man.

 

So there is all that...

 

She lies to your face about everything, she does not seem to be remorseful, she trickle truths you about all of it until you almost kick her out...

 

Why are you trying to save this marriage? Have you written all of this down an looked at everything that she has done?

 

Why don't you do that, make a big long list of all the problems in the marriage, sexual problems, at least one affair that you know about, and on and on.

 

I mean is this what you want to deal with for the next however many years?

 

I just don't know...

 

AMEN. Took the words right out of my mouth!

[wmacbride]

OP,

there is no one size fits all answer in your situation, as it will have its own nuances and influencing factors.

 

If you are reconciling, you need to do what works for you and your wife, and as great as online advice can be, not all of it will apply to you, and each person will be giving it, me included, based on their own experiences and life views.

 

If reconciling is what you want, there may be some measures you won't be able to access. Keep in mind that your marriage, going forward form this point, has to work for both of you.

 

For some, nothing short of seeing their bs on their knees in front of them grovelling will do. They will not rest until they have exacted their pound of flesh, even if that means both their and their ws are miserable. They are more interested in punishing their ws, and while they won't ever admit it, they really want to see them suffer.

 

Others simply stuff all their hurt, anger and other feelings into some sort of mental closet and slam the door. It's as if they believe out of sight, out of mind. the only problem is the issues will always be there, ready to bubble up and cause anger and pain.

 

To me, neither of those is a good option. There had to be a batter way.

 

If reconciliation is what you want, then I would suggest you both sit down and make a commitment to that. Both of you need to decide what you need form one another. Take your time, and write it out, then come together to discuss what you have written.

 

Keep in mind that your ws can't heal your pain. They can help, but ultimately, it's a long process that you have to do yourself.

 

Also, there is no way a ws can understand what it is like to be a bs. This isn't to say they lack empathy or can't try, it's just that it's hard to understand something you haven't experienced, so don't hold your breath.

[AnneP]

Dated as in had sex with this OM?

People confuse not being able to get sued on the grounds for divorce because

they were separated at the time so that the BH will not feel that his WW

had an affair.

 

 

Sadly the reality is that the BH will feel that his WW "did" have an affair.

Point is many WW's ask for a separation because they have an OM lined

up or already in place to replace their BH.

 

 

If you got to date the divorce first. For recovery is hard enough without

making a husband feel he was a BH.

 

Yeah, I didn't have another person "lined up" first. This was the agreement we made and at the time both fully thought the divorce would happen.

 

And just to briefly address the other things you've said to me; not asked, but assumed.

 

-I never forced anything on my husband. He chose to buy a nicer home than mine, and wasn't going to kick me and our children out. And, he couldn't have anyway as this home is solely in my name and always has been. I didn't kick him out either. He took his time and found the home he wants. I was letting him know that I wasn't going to take as much money from him that I could. He already knew that, though.

 

-You seem to be under the assumption that I don't work? I'm not sure where that came from.

 

-You do realize that child support is to support the child, right? When kids have become accustomed to a certain lifestyle, if the parents are fair, they'll try to work it out a way where that works at both homes.

 

-In our state, alimony and child support occur when a spouse earns a substantial amount more money than the other, regardless of gender. You seem to think women who work don't get child support or alimony.

 

-I'm not sure how the decisions my husband and I made regarding how we would handle separation and what the terms would be are any of your business. We agreed to what we agreed to and that is all that matters.

 

 

Also, I see you are an established member here and if you would like to comment on my thread that was started by me, feel free. Please do. I don't think it's fair to hijack someone else's thread with multiple posts directed at me. I'm sure you're well aware that you're hijacking OT's thread here.

 

Have a wonderful day! ?

[Overtaxed]

So lets say that you know everything that you need to know. Start, Finish?, Where, when, number of times they had sex, any special sex acts that she did for him and not you, lets say that you know all of it. OK.

 

Now, the why? Is it really valid that she really thought the marriage was over? What was she thinking when she brought him home to the house? In your bed? I mean WTF?

 

And, lets talk about the basically no sex. I mean lets just say that he is not as big as you are and it did not hurt her. OK, maybe that is valid. But not to be vulgar, but how much bigger than average could you be? I mean you guys have been married how long, and no matter what she did, she could not get used to your size? I am not saying that it does not happen, I have heard stories about it? But damn. I mean why be married is you are so sexually incompatible???

 

And you add to that the apparent religious and other issues that she has with sex.... Man I just don't know.

 

Yet apparently all that went out the window with the OM, and she was apparently was able to have plenty of sex with him. And, I don't buy the stuff that she was telling you about not enjoying it, I mean come on man.

 

So there is all that...

 

She lies to your face about everything, she does not seem to be remorseful, she trickle truths you about all of it until you almost kick her out...

 

Why are you trying to save this marriage? Have you written all of this down an looked at everything that she has done?

 

Why don't you do that, make a big long list of all the problems in the marriage, sexual problems, at least one affair that you know about, and on and on.

 

I mean is this what you want to deal with for the next however many years?

 

I just don't know...

 

I'm with you man, I don't know either. I keep coming back to it; but, I just can't let go of how we "are" together (except for when the A was going on). We're really best friends, we never cut each other down, always there for one another. We laugh, we have a ton of things we (used to) like to do together. I can't see replacing that; I'm sure I could get rid of the pain by booting her, but I can't see finding someone else who's as compatible (I know, this is crazy, but it's how I feel) in the future. I'm 100% convinced I can find someone who enjoys me and I her sexually more. It's always been a problem, and I suspect always will be should this relationship continue. But, the rest of it; just seems to me, right now, impossible to replace. And then, of course, there are statistics which tell me that if I D and remarry, my chances of an A in the new marriage are the same, and my chances of D are quite a bit higher. So.. IDK, is that a valid answer?

 

Because you asked; I'm not ridiculous (size). Vivid pictures isn't beating down my door, let's put it that way. Because I love statistics and this is a sensitive topic, I'll use that to say, I'm in the 95% percentile. I've had a problem with about 50% of my partners, however, those in the "no problem" group, probably 50% of them had children. Maybe having a child is really the answer to all my problems (said someone sarcastically)?

[Overtaxed]

OP,

there is no one size fits all answer in your situation, as it will have its own nuances and influencing factors.

 

If you are reconciling, you need to do what works for you and your wife, and as great as online advice can be, not all of it will apply to you, and each person will be giving it, me included, based on their own experiences and life views.

 

If reconciling is what you want, there may be some measures you won't be able to access. Keep in mind that your marriage, going forward form this point, has to work for both of you.

 

For some, nothing short of seeing their bs on their knees in front of them grovelling will do. They will not rest until they have exacted their pound of flesh, even if that means both their and their ws are miserable. They are more interested in punishing their ws, and while they won't ever admit it, they really want to see them suffer.

 

Others simply stuff all their hurt, anger and other feelings into some sort of mental closet and slam the door. It's as if they believe out of sight, out of mind. the only problem is the issues will always be there, ready to bubble up and cause anger and pain.

 

To me, neither of those is a good option. There had to be a batter way.

 

If reconciliation is what you want, then I would suggest you both sit down and make a commitment to that. Both of you need to decide what you need form one another. Take your time, and write it out, then come together to discuss what you have written.

 

Keep in mind that your ws can't heal your pain. They can help, but ultimately, it's a long process that you have to do yourself.

 

Also, there is no way a ws can understand what it is like to be a bs. This isn't to say they lack empathy or can't try, it's just that it's hard to understand something you haven't experienced, so don't hold your breath.

 

Yeah, and this is the line I'm walking in my head right now. Do I keep making her re-hash it because I want to punish her, or because it's something that's helping me heal? I really don't know. I'd like to think I'm doing it to break through her fog, recounting the details started out as "easy" (she just listed them off) and has now become.. Traumatizing? IDK the right word. She can barely speak. I know I'm also doing it to see if I can trust her again, because I know 95% of the details already, it's easy for me to see when she's lying/minimizing. The more truth she tells me, the more comfortable I get starting to trust her again, so that part is really helpful. I suppose I also want her to recount the details so that she can look at what she's done. In her mind, she's remembering "her boyfriend coming over to hang out and have sex". In fact, she was inviting a married man to our home while I was away working to have sex in the same home we were married in. So, in my eyes, it's important to pull the "blinders" off and let her see what she was actually doing, not what she "thought" she was doing.

 

I would go further and say it's impossible for a female BS to understand what a male BS is going through and vice versa. I can actually see my wife cringe when she tells me things like "I did love him", because, I know to her, that would be like a stake in the heart. To me, while it's hurtful, it's not even in the top 5 lists of problems. You didn't love him, you loved the bull that he kicked to you and the high you got from doing something so wrong. I know that, so I don't place much stock in it when she says stuff like that. It's the trust/sex stuff that rips me apart; and I suspect that for many female betrayed, that's not as big an issue as their husband falling in love with another person.

[AnneP]

 

Because you asked; I'm not ridiculous (size). Vivid pictures isn't beating down my door, let's put it that way. Because I love statistics and this is a sensitive topic, I'll use that to say, I'm in the 95% percentile. I've had a problem with about 50% of my partners, however, those in the "no problem" group, probably 50% of them had children. Maybe having a child is really the answer to all my problems (said someone sarcastically)?

 

Not always true. If women do kegels, often times there is zero difference. Not to be too graphic, but for me nothing has changed,but I did kegels. My 63 year old mother whose had 4 children (two home births), had her annual GYN exam recently and her GYN asked if she had done kegels because she didn't seem to have "the normal" muscles and pelvic floor of women who had given birth to 4 kids. She was really shocked that my mom had ever given birth, much less to 4 kids. Really it depends on anatomy, genetics, and whether the woman has done kegels.

[Overtaxed]

Hi Anne and Overtaxed, I hope I haven't hijacked your thread OT, but I thought that this question of whether one was religious or not had a bearing on ones choices and attitudes as far as sex and by extrapolation, affairs are concerned. As you have said OT, your wife has always felt guilty about sex, may be subliminally, just because of her religious beliefs. On the other hand as Anne says, she too, is a Christian by belief, but that has not affected her indulgence and enjoyment of sex. This is the reason I say that a rigid belief in religious teachings without applying one's mind and at the same time having an open mind about ideas and the beliefs of others is paramount. I would go anytime with Anne's form of belief and being a Christian than some of the Christians that I have interacted with or seen in churches. There is such a narrow minded 'Us against them' attitude that they project that it just puts me off. Being Christian is not so much about following the Bible word for word as in displaying an attitude of charitableness toward your neighbour and upholding so called Christian values in your life. Most so called Christians are hypocrites much like the High Priests of the Temple that Christ talked about, referring to them as 'Whited Sepulchers'! I am sorry for this rant but I do believe that this is at the root of so many twisted thoughts and ideas that people accept and adopt in the name of being religious. This is, in my opinion , at the root of behaviours such as that displayed by your wife, which seem incongruous or incompatible with her core beliefs.

 

I think she may have had a suppressed neurosis due to her faulty beliefs which rebelled against her true nature and led her down such a destructive path. This is also probably the reason that she was not able to recognize what was happening with her, almost like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde syndrome where she was able to switch from one to the other personality, quite seamlessly. I guess in her Dr. Jekyll persona she was horrified by what she was doing because of her core beliefs but when she switched to her Mr. Hyde persona she was quite comfortable with her actions and deeds and there was no guilt. Maybe I am wrong in my assessment but if there is even the slightest chance of something like this having happened, it may be a good idea to have her undergo extensive therapy and also a weening away from a rigid belief about religious teachings. The Bible talks of original sin in the old Testament I think( not sure, haven't read my Bible in a long time) and I think sex ranks somewhere up there with it. The Bible also says that we are born in sin and I think this plays a very tragic part in moulding our way of thinking about ourselves and others. Women, traditionally, have been cast in an inferior position to men in the old Judaic tradition and the Christian faith has propagated this concept in spite of modern thinking which equates both men and women. This has resulted in women often feeling inferior to their partners and the resultant resentment sometimes causes them to rebel and do things which, in their heart of hearts, they know is wrong. I guess I better wind this up here as it seems I have actually hijacked your thread and changed it's direction. I apologize and please forgive me. Warm wishes.

 

This is a perfect description of her behavior during the A. I said it a few times, but not only compartmentalizing the A, but also in our conversations, it was like DrJ/MrH quite often. Having a great day together, having sex, then talking about D. I was so confused that my head would not stop spinning. It was just crazyville; and it sounds like that behavior is quite common in cheating spouses.

 

Oh, she knows this is wrong; she's just not 100% come to grips with it yet (IMHO). She's always been the person to say "How could they do that to someone" when hearing of an A. And this is 10+ years ago, so not a "setup" to get me looking in the other direction (unless she's a h*ll of a planner!). She's the last person I'd suspect because her values (or those she portrays) are so counter to what she actually did during the A.

[Overtaxed]

Not always true. If women do kegels, often times there is zero difference. Not to be too graphic, but for me nothing has changed,but I did kegels. My 63 year old mother whose had 4 children (two home births), had her annual GYN exam recently and her GYN asked if she had done kegels because she didn't seem to have "the normal" muscles and pelvic floor of women who had given birth to 4 kids. She was really shocked that my mom had ever given birth, much less to 4 kids. Really it depends on anatomy, genetics, and whether the woman has done kegels.

 

Can't think of a way to say this without being somewhat graphic, so.. Here goes. I didn't mean to imply that women who had children weren't as enjoyable as those who had. It's not "loose", in my totally uneducated opinion, I think that having kids just "moves stuff around" and makes it more comfortable? I can tell you, while I couldn't usually tell (from what I was feeling) that a woman had children, I could typically tell because of the way they acted during sex. I'm pretty sure there's a correlation between having kids and being comfortable with someone larger men, at least in my experience. Who knows, maybe it's all psychological? <joke coming>. "That thing doesn't scare me one bit, not after a baby's head!".

[wmacbride]

Yeah, and this is the line I'm walking in my head right now. Do I keep making her re-hash it because I want to punish her, or because it's something that's helping me heal? I really don't know. I'd like to think I'm doing it to break through her fog, recounting the details started out as "easy" (she just listed them off) and has now become.. Traumatizing? IDK the right word. She can barely speak. I know I'm also doing it to see if I can trust her again, because I know 95% of the details already, it's easy for me to see when she's lying/minimizing. The more truth she tells me, the more comfortable I get starting to trust her again, so that part is really helpful. I suppose I also want her to recount the details so that she can look at what she's done. In her mind, she's remembering "her boyfriend coming over to hang out and have sex". In fact, she was inviting a married man to our home while I was away working to have sex in the same home we were married in. So, in my eyes, it's important to pull the "blinders" off and let her see what she was actually doing, not what she "thought" she was doing.

 

I would go further and say it's impossible for a female BS to understand what a male BS is going through and vice versa. I can actually see my wife cringe when she tells me things like "I did love him", because, I know to her, that would be like a stake in the heart. To me, while it's hurtful, it's not even in the top 5 lists of problems. You didn't love him, you loved the bull that he kicked to you and the high you got from doing something so wrong. I know that, so I don't place much stock in it when she says stuff like that. It's the trust/sex stuff that rips me apart; and I suspect that for many female betrayed, that's not as big an issue as their husband falling in love with another person.

 

I agree men and women can see infidelity from very different perspectives, and not being a guy, I'm not sure what it would be like to be a male bs.

 

Have you settled in your mind on whether you want to R or divorce? I'm asking because that can determine your next steps. One thing to keep in mind if you R is that you'll have to find a way to meet your completely understandable need to express and address your hurt and anger without strafing your M and your W.

 

I've heard of people having revenge affairs, completely humiliating their ws , outing them to all their friends and family and much worse. I don't see how a reconciled marriage can be built on top of all of that.

 

Please note that I am not advocating rug sweeping or ignoring the problem. Instead, I'm saying that if R is what you want, don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

Also ( and I say this gently and with the caveat that I don't think it is ever okay to cheat, and I don;t care what someone's reasons are) that if you are going to R, as hard and painful as it may be, at some point you and your wife will have to talk about why she cheated and what she was getting out of it beyond ego feeds. I'm not suggesting you are in that place right now, but at some point, as hard as it can be, it will be to your benefit to discuss this.

[wmacbride]

This is a perfect description of her behavior during the A. I said it a few times, but not only compartmentalizing the A, but also in our conversations, it was like DrJ/MrH quite often. Having a great day together, having sex, then talking about D. I was so confused that my head would not stop spinning. It was just crazyville; and it sounds like that behavior is quite common in cheating spouses.

 

Oh, she knows this is wrong; she's just not 100% come to grips with it yet (IMHO). She's always been the person to say "How could they do that to someone" when hearing of an A. And this is 10+ years ago, so not a "setup" to get me looking in the other direction (unless she's a h*ll of a planner!). She's the last person I'd suspect because her values (or those she portrays) are so counter to what she actually did during the A.

 

If she's as religious as you indicate, I expect she's feeling like she not only let you down, but herself and also god. Not being religious myself, I can't say I have experienced that personally, but from what I understand, it can be a really difficult thing for a true believer to work through-how they knowingly went against their deep seated beliefs. For some, it's easier to hide from that than it is to face it.

 

I will say that my spouse has wrestled with that himself. he's not religious, but his having an A went his system of morals and values. Even after all this time, he still is trying to sort that out in his head. I've forgiven him a long time ago, but he can't forgive himself.