Low sex partner in affair. Fresh d-day

[AnneP]

Can't think of a way to say this without being somewhat graphic, so.. Here goes. I didn't mean to imply that women who had children weren't as enjoyable as those who had. It's not "loose", in my totally uneducated opinion, I think that having kids just "moves stuff around" and makes it more comfortable? I can tell you, while I couldn't usually tell (from what I was feeling) that a woman had children, I could typically tell because of the way they acted during sex. I'm pretty sure there's a correlation between having kids and being comfortable with someone larger men, at least in my experience. Who knows, maybe it's all psychological? <joke coming>. "That thing doesn't scare me one bit, not after a baby's head!".

 

I do know that many women don't do kegels at all. Women who don't have children should be doing them also. Yeah I don't think everyone is the same, but I do know that men sometimes talk about it being different after kids. I was raised by a man and have 3 brothers, so I've heard my share of what men say after a few drinks at the bar.

 

My husband is above average too and there are times (sorry if too graphic) that I have bled after sex. And this was after kids. What I don't understand is you mention using a lot of lube.... is that necessary? I guess what I'm trying to ask without being gross is: Does she not produce what's necessary on her own. There's no lube like natural. Women have to clearly want it and be in the mood to have sex. If she's not in the right mindset, there is no way she's going to "loosen up" - pun intended.

 

I know if my H just grabbed some lube and went for it, I would be in a lot of pain.

 

Also, is she petite? Petite women (in my experience) tend to have more of these issues. I've definitely had some but it's nothing that cannot be overcome.

Edited February 3, 2017 by AnneP

[Overtaxed]

I agree men and women can see infidelity from very different perspectives, and not being a guy, I'm not sure what it would be like to be a male bs.

 

Have you settled in your mind on whether you want to R or divorce? I'm asking because that can determine your next steps. One thing to keep in mind if you R is that you'll have to find a way to meet your completely understandable need to express and address your hurt and anger without strafing your M and your W.

 

I've heard of people having revenge affairs, completely humiliating their ws , outing them to all their friends and family and much worse. I don't see how a reconciled marriage can be built on top of all of that.

 

Please note that I am not advocating rug sweeping or ignoring the problem. Instead, I'm saying that if R is what you want, don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

Also ( and I say this gently and with the caveat that I don't think it is ever okay to cheat, and I don;t care what someone's reasons are) that if you are going to R, as hard and painful as it may be, at some point you and your wife will have to talk about why she cheated and what she was getting out of it beyond ego feeds. I'm not suggesting you are in that place right now, but at some point, as hard as it can be, it will be to your benefit to discuss this.

 

I agree, and this is the "playbook" I'm trying to follow. Most of the recommendations here are "nuke the b**tch" or "nuke the a**hole" as "step 1" in "affair recovery". And while that might be step one to recover personally, I can't see that being the right first step to recover the relationship (I certainly could be wrong, but it doesn't "feel" right). It's almost like having a revenge A, sure, it would feel great to lay another woman down on the same bed where this happened. And I will tell you, my mind went there, and to far worse places as well (make sure I do it when she's going to be coming home, take pictures of it, etc). Again, yeah, it would feel great, and I'd get to experience that awesome A sex. But would it "fix" things? Kind of feels like looking down, seeing a hand grenade and instead of taking cover, pulling the pin on another grenade and throwing it back in the direction the one at your feet came from. Sure, your both dead; you got your revenge though!

 

My plan, once I get a disclosure that lines up with the evidence, is to stop asking questions and start making a decision "Can I let this go" and "How do I fix me/us to build a better relationship". I want this "process" over (the endless fights, the trickle truths, etc) because, IMHO, nothing can start until the lies stop. But, in many ways, right now I can't let it go; not because I don't know what happened (I do, at least pretty close) but because she just can't seem to stop lying. I know some of this is probably to protect me, and most of it is to protect her, but, to me, the first step to fixing this is to drop all the walls between us. And this is a huge goddarn wall!

 

There are/were absolutely issues in our relationship that need fixing. I'm guilty of things, just like she is. And I don't intend to go back to how it was if I do decide to R. Thing is, when this was going on, there was just so much going on in our lives; it's hard to really say "you should have done this". Sure, looking back, yes. But, in the moment, all the travel for work, my deathly sick family member, the stress of owning 2 homes and renovations, on top of all the normal life stresses.. IDK, seems hard to me to see how I could have done much more during the time of the A. Before that, absolutely, but it's scary because we're going to have times like that again, and I need to be able to depend on her to keep her vows when things are tough. That's going to be a hard pill to swallow.

[Overtaxed]

If she's as religious as you indicate, I expect she's feeling like she not only let you down, but herself and also god. Not being religious myself, I can't say I have experienced that personally, but from what I understand, it can be a really difficult thing for a true believer to work through-how they knowingly went against their deep seated beliefs. For some, it's easier to hide from that than it is to face it.

 

I will say that my spouse has wrestled with that himself. he's not religious, but his having an A went his system of morals and values. Even after all this time, he still is trying to sort that out in his head. I've forgiven him a long time ago, but he can't forgive himself.

 

Does the fact your spouse can't forgive himself have an impact on your relationship today? Because, I honestly feel like my W is going to have this problem for a long time (forever perhaps). When this really "hits", I'm not sure she'll be able to forgive herself, she's going to have to "integrate" this into her mind/self belief at some point, and.. I just don't know how it's going to fit.

[Overtaxed]

I do know that many women don't do kegels at all. Women who don't have children should be doing them also. Yeah I don't think everyone is the same, but I do know that men sometimes talk about it being different after kids. I was raised by a man and have 3 brothers, so I've heard my share of what men say after a few drinks at the bar.

 

My husband is above average too and there are times (sorry if too graphic) that I have bled after sex. And this was after kids. What I don't understand is you mention using a lot of lube.... is that necessary? I guess what I'm trying to ask without being gross is: Does she not produce what's necessary on her own. There's no lube like natural. Women have to clearly want it and be in the mood to have sex. If she's not in the right mindset, there is no way she's going to "loosen up" - pun intended.

 

I know if my H just grabbed some lube and went for it, I would be in a lot of pain.

 

Also, is she petite? Petite women (in my experience) tend to have more of these issues. I've definitely had some but it's nothing that cannot be overcome.

 

Well, since we're both well beyond to the "too graphic" level, might as well go all the way.

 

No, she almost never has lubrication problems. We typically don't even start having sex until she's had an orgasm. But lube, even though not necessary, does help, especially if we wind up having sex for a long time. Aside, a few years ago we discovered silicone based lube; OMG, what a difference. If anyone here has had the "dry out" feeling from lube, get some Wet Platinum or something like it. You could put it on in the morning and still be ready to go in the evening; it really does last that long!

 

Yes, she's very petite (barely 5'). And yes, from my experience with other women, that does seem to be a contributing factor. Unfortunately, I'm also very attracted to petite women. Like God's cruel joke..

[AnneP]

Well, since we're both well beyond to the "too graphic" level, might as well go all the way.

 

No, she almost never has lubrication problems. We typically don't even start having sex until she's had an orgasm. But lube, even though not necessary, does help, especially if we wind up having sex for a long time. Aside, a few years ago we discovered silicone based lube; OMG, what a difference. If anyone here has had the "dry out" feeling from lube, get some Wet Platinum or something like it. You could put it on in the morning and still be ready to go in the evening; it really does last that long!

 

Yes, she's very petite (barely 5'). And yes, from my experience with other women, that does seem to be a contributing factor. Unfortunately, I'm also very attracted to petite women. Like God's cruel joke..

 

I'm thinking this has more to do with her being petite - 5'3 here. We have tiny features, which unfortunately means every where. You have mentioned toys. Have you tried different sized ones to work her up to you? Sorry if I'm offending anyone. ?

[Overtaxed]

I'm thinking this has more to do with her being petite - 5'3 here. We have tiny features, which unfortunately means every where. You have mentioned toys. Have you tried different sized ones to work her up to you? Sorry if I'm offending anyone. ?

 

You're not offending me, and, honestly, if people are on an infidelity forum and find themselves shocked that people are discussing sex, they probably need to move on; infidelity is about 10,000X worse than any sexual act we can talk about here.

 

I think you're right, smaller girls seemed to be more problematic in trying to get comfortable. And, thinking back, smaller girls with no kids, I'm thinking that might be close to 100% where we'd have some kind of "problem" in the bedroom. Without being too graphic, it's funny, because it was so "freeing" when I was with taller/bigger girls and didn't have to worry about it. But, we're all attracted to what we're attracted to, and I've always loved smaller women.

 

She doesn't like any insertion toys. And, to be frank, most insertion toys (she has the rabbit) are ridiculous in size. Or is that your point, get her used to something bigger and then maybe we'll be better together?

[AnneP]

You're not offending me, and, honestly, if people are on an infidelity forum and find themselves shocked that people are discussing sex, they probably need to move on; infidelity is about 10,000X worse than any sexual act we can talk about here.

 

I think you're right, smaller girls seemed to be more problematic in trying to get comfortable. And, thinking back, smaller girls with no kids, I'm thinking that might be close to 100% where we'd have some kind of "problem" in the bedroom. Without being too graphic, it's funny, because it was so "freeing" when I was with taller/bigger girls and didn't have to worry about it. But, we're all attracted to what we're attracted to, and I've always loved smaller women.

 

She doesn't like any insertion toys. And, to be frank, most insertion toys (she has the rabbit) are ridiculous in size. Or is that your point, get her used to something bigger and then maybe we'll be better together?

 

You can find insertion toys that vary in size. They might be labeled for a different body part, but they're out there.

 

Man, if you do R, I would consider some kind of sex therapist that could help you out.

[Try]

But, the rest of it; just seems to me, right now, impossible to replace. And then, of course, there are statistics which tell me that if I D and remarry, my chances of an A in the new marriage are the same, and my chances of D are quite a bit higher.

You are reading statistics wrong. Currently the odds are greater that your wife will cheat again, than if you marry someone new that does not have a history of cheating. As for her being "impossible to replace" when it come to the non-sex part of your marriage, you only think that because you have not been married before and are not a cheater that has allowed another women the opportunity to get that close to you. Getting close to your spouse is a skill set that you will take to your next marriage.

[aliveagain]

Friend, if your size was a real problem for her she would never have married you. Bringing another man into your home is a whole different matter. She sh*t on your sanctuary, that was an anger statement against you. That was a direct hit on the respect she had for you and she needs to find out why she did such an act. There are so many cheap hotels, motels, back seats but she chose to allow another man to mark your territory within your sacred place, your safe sanctuary. What can she do now and in the future that is believable and that will make you feel safe with her again? If she can't make you feel safe fire her as your wife. The onus is on her to convince you and not the other way around.

[Overtaxed]

Friend, if your size was a real problem for her she would never have married you. Bringing another man into your home is a whole different matter. She sh*t on your sanctuary, that was an anger statement against you. That was a direct hit on the respect she had for you and she needs to find out why she did such an act. There are so many cheap hotels, motels, back seats but she chose to allow another man to mark your territory within your sacred place, your safe sanctuary. What can she do now and in the future that is believable and that will make you feel safe with her again? If she can't make you feel safe fire her as your wife. The onus is on her to convince you and not the other way around.

 

Well, I'm not so sure about that. People have "problems" with the people they marry all the time. I'm not so sure that this can be dismissed as a smokescreen; I've known for a long time that I need to be careful with her and I've hurt her badly in the past accidentally. Now, is it the reason she cheated? Of course not. But is it a real issue; IMHO, yes, it is, simply because it's been this way for over a decade.

 

Yes, the "in our home" thing is beyond comprehension. I think I said it before, but I know I could cheat if the situation was right. It's one of the reasons I'm so careful to keep myself out of those situations (hotel bars, work events at night where we all have hotel rooms, etc). But bring some girl back to our home? I don't have that in me; I know I don't. The only time it seemed like a "reasonable" idea was after I found out what she did and was seeing red and wanted revenge. That's beyond the realm of reasonable actions during an A. And it's the part that I really struggle with the most; how much anger/rage did she have? Or what the h*ll was she thinking?!

 

I know it's her responsibility to make me feel safe again and I think she's trying. We're still pretty "fresh" in this process, so I know I need some patience here, it's just really hard to sit back when you hurt so badly and wait for the other person to slowly realize what they've done to you/your relationship.

[BluesPower]

OT, it still sounds like you are taking responsibility for her betrayal, and you are.

 

You say that you are not, you say that you know it is her fault, but you still take responsibility for "Your issues" in the marriage.

 

All marriages have issues, every single one, and yet you did not cheat. You did not bring a woman into the marital bed, she soiled that place.

 

Nothing that you ever did caused her to have an affair. Further, she is still not telling the whole truth. When are you expecting that to happen, ever?

 

I know that you are taking your time and being thoughtful about all of this, and that is really great.

 

But the more you post about all the issues, I still am not sure what there is worth saving. Do you think you will ever be able to trust her after all the lies and gas lighting and trickle truth that she has given you?

[aliveagain]

What I meant is that the issue about size wasn't a big enough problem not to marry you. There are many creams, lubricants that can help and being considerate of your partners wellbeing and doing everything you can to see that the experience is enjoyable is key. Feeling safe knowing what she is capable of will be your hardest challenge. You already know that if the right opportunity came along and she thought that you would never find out that she would go for it no matter where the event took place. This is what she needs to do for you, remove that doubt or your relationship will fail because no marriage can survive without trust and honesty. Her word in my opinion isn't enough, not with her history. Are you willing to settle if you still have doubts? What is she willing to do to make you feel safe?

[Overtaxed]

OT, it still sounds like you are taking responsibility for her betrayal, and you are.

 

You say that you are not, you say that you know it is her fault, but you still take responsibility for "Your issues" in the marriage.

 

All marriages have issues, every single one, and yet you did not cheat. You did not bring a woman into the marital bed, she soiled that place.

 

Nothing that you ever did caused her to have an affair. Further, she is still not telling the whole truth. When are you expecting that to happen, ever?

 

I know that you are taking your time and being thoughtful about all of this, and that is really great.

 

But the more you post about all the issues, I still am not sure what there is worth saving. Do you think you will ever be able to trust her after all the lies and gas lighting and trickle truth that she has given you?

 

I won't disagree, but I'm trying to separate the 2 in my mind. The A is 100% her fault, and I'm towing a pretty hard line on that. The issues in the marriage were shared, and, in her eyes, that led to the A. That's where the "hard line" needs to sit. Yes, there were shared issues, but NO, that did not lead to the A.

 

She's now told me 95% of the whole truth. Honestly, some of the other 5%, she really may not remember. I have the benefit of all the txt messages, after I recovered them, I wiped the phone, so she can't go through and see what was said anymore, she has to do it from memory. So, some of the things that I want her to tell me about, she might honestly not remember. Some of them, she certainly does remember, but she's embarrassed or afraid it'll cause me to leave (IMHO). She knows I have the messages, but I don't think she can bring herself to the logical place of what that means. I've read it all; it's right in front of me! And, as I mentioned before, she has now told me some really hurtful stuff that I didn't know from the TXTs, that; IMHO, is a very positive sign.

 

Can I trust her again? IDK. Right now, sure, she's walking around like someone from Minority Report with how much electronic surveillance I have on her. But, I can't live like this, not even medium term. I need to stop with the electronic countermeasures and start with the trust. But it's certainly going to take more than a few weeks to get there.

[wmacbride]

Does the fact your spouse can't forgive himself have an impact on your relationship today? Because, I honestly feel like my W is going to have this problem for a long time (forever perhaps). When this really "hits", I'm not sure she'll be able to forgive herself, she's going to have to "integrate" this into her mind/self belief at some point, and.. I just don't know how it's going to fit.

 

I can't say, as my spouses reasons for not forgiving himself are all twisted up in other things as well, and he's done a huge amount of work, but there still more to do.

 

As a bs, if you choose to reconcile, you will quickly learn the meaning of grace. It can be a kick in the @ss to know you are helping your spouse work through how they did something terrible to you, but that does fade in time, and after all, anything that's worth having is worth working for.

 

When the time comes and it starts to hit her, you can remind her that as humans, we are all flawed and that mental self flagellation helps no one. In fact, there is almost a selfishness to it, if that makes any sense.

[wmacbride]

I won't disagree, but I'm trying to separate the 2 in my mind. The A is 100% her fault, and I'm towing a pretty hard line on that. The issues in the marriage were shared, and, in her eyes, that led to the A. That's where the "hard line" needs to sit. Yes, there were shared issues, but NO, that did not lead to the A.

 

She's now told me 95% of the whole truth. Honestly, some of the other 5%, she really may not remember. I have the benefit of all the txt messages, after I recovered them, I wiped the phone, so she can't go through and see what was said anymore, she has to do it from memory. So, some of the things that I want her to tell me about, she might honestly not remember. Some of them, she certainly does remember, but she's embarrassed or afraid it'll cause me to leave (IMHO). She knows I have the messages, but I don't think she can bring herself to the logical place of what that means. I've read it all; it's right in front of me! And, as I mentioned before, she has now told me some really hurtful stuff that I didn't know from the TXTs, that; IMHO, is a very positive sign.

 

Can I trust her again? IDK. Right now, sure, she's walking around like someone from Minority Report with how much electronic surveillance I have on her. But, I can't live like this, not even medium term. I need to stop with the electronic countermeasures and start with the trust. But it's certainly going to take more than a few weeks to get there.

 

For the time being, you are smart to verify and the trust issues are understandable. Even if she is doing absolutely nothing wrong, you have to teach yourself to trust her again. I don't think many ws understand that right off. Some do, but a lot aren't ready for that.

 

I know you two have done a lot of talking, but have you ever told her, flat out, exactly what you need from her and why? If she loves you, she will understand and want you to feel safe. Over the next while, write up a list on what you consider to be "non-negotiables",and have her do the same. Then talk about hem and how you can both make them happen.

 

This isn't about her blaming you for the A, as that is silly. She chose that all on her own. It's about figuring out what you both need, and deciding if those needs are compatible. I have a sneaking suspicion you are a very logical person, ad like order and knowing what's going to happen next. I'm like that too, and I can't stand not knowing what's going on. The process of reconciling was hard, and partly because i had to let go of that mindset and accept that there are some times when I can't know what's going to happen.

 

One more comment. Just based on what you write, it sounds like you are a grounded person, and very pragmatic. You know yourself well. Do you think your wife is the same way?

[Overtaxed]

For the time being, you are smart to verify and the trust issues are understandable. Even if she is doing absolutely nothing wrong, you have to teach yourself to trust her again. I don't think many ws understand that right off. Some do, but a lot aren't ready for that.

 

I know you two have done a lot of talking, but have you ever told her, flat out, exactly what you need from her and why? If she loves you, she will understand and want you to feel safe. Over the next while, write up a list on what you consider to be "non-negotiables",and have her do the same. Then talk about hem and how you can both make them happen.

 

This isn't about her blaming you for the A, as that is silly. She chose that all on her own. It's about figuring out what you both need, and deciding if those needs are compatible. I have a sneaking suspicion you are a very logical person, ad like order and knowing what's going to happen next. I'm like that too, and I can't stand not knowing what's going on. The process of reconciling was hard, and partly because i had to let go of that mindset and accept that there are some times when I can't know what's going to happen.

 

One more comment. Just based on what you write, it sounds like you are a grounded person, and very pragmatic. You know yourself well. Do you think your wife is the same way?

 

I like the idea of the lists, I'm going to bring that up with her tonight. It's kind of hard for me, because, my list could be really short; I was pretty happy with the way things were before the A with the exception of our sex life. So I don't have a ton of things I want to fix. She does, and it's going to be difficult because she's going to want much more from me than I from her in changes. But, that said, I do like the idea and am going to do that.

 

No, my wife is not well grounded and does not know herself well. I knew for a long time she was easily manipulated, and, if I'm honest with myself, I know I took advantage of that at times. But others in her life do it much worse, her parents manipulate her terribly through guilt, for example. Her employer does the same thing, they walk all over her because she just won't put her foot down. And, of course, that's exactly what the AP did to get her in bed, manipulated her to the point of ridiculousness and yet, it still worked. So no, she's not pragmatic at all, and she's always been "searching"; which is the best way I can put it, for something outside of herself. Family, friends, me, the AP, all of us seem to play a role in helping her define herself through our eyes. I'm the opposite, especially as an introvert, I don't define myself at all through how others see me; my problem is I don't like others to see me even a little bit. I "wear masks" around just about everyone in my life, presenting to them the person that I think they want me to be. The only people I'm not like that with are my wife and a few close family members (maybe a grand total of 10 people). Most people have no idea who I really am.

[Try]

I like the idea of the lists, I'm going to bring that up with her tonight. It's kind of hard for me, because, my list could be really short; I was pretty happy with the way things were before the A with the exception of our sex life. So I don't have a ton of things I want to fix. She does, and it's going to be difficult because she's going to want much more from me than I from her in changes. But, that said, I do like the idea and am going to do that.

A list at this point is a bad idea. Cheaters commonly reinvent history and exaggerate their spouse's failings in order to blame shift the cause of the affair onto their spouse. You asking for such a list from her now, would only reinforce the blame shifting in her mind and produce a false list. My dad had such a list after his affair, but a few years later admitted to me in private that looking back on it the list of my mom's failings were unfair and had nothing to do with the affair. Also, it would in effect be rewarding her for cheating, and would be viewed by her as you doing the pick me dance. Again, the list at this time is a very bad idea, and should not be done at this time.

[Overtaxed]

A list at this point is a bad idea. Cheaters commonly reinvent history and exaggerate their spouse's failings in order to blame shift the cause of the affair onto their spouse. You asking for such a list from her now, would only reinforce the blame shifting in her mind and produce a false list. My dad had such a list after his affair, but a few years later admitted to me in private that looking back on it the list of my mom's failings were unfair and had nothing to do with the affair. Also, it would in effect be rewarding her for cheating, and would be viewed by her as you doing the pick me dance. Again, the list at this time is a very bad idea, and should not be done at this time.

 

Bolded above, man could that not be more true.

 

I don't know if I shared this already (if so, apologies), but one of the biggest "wedges" in our marriage, in her eyes, was something that happened years ago. I won't give all the details, but, at a high level, we went into a Dr's office together for, in my eyes, the purposes of helping her with some of her female issues (painful period). That Dr, however, was in a fertility clinic. I went in thinking I was there to support her, and, 30 minutes into the consult, was told to go "into the little room and do my thing" and then, after that, come in to sit with my wife while she got a pelvic exam. Well, I lost it. I was unable to control my emotions, and I basically had a meltdown in the office. My wife was just devastated, and I knew it. She didn't come home for hours after that (we drove separate) and I felt like a total a**. The next day, I went back, "did my thing" and started the process of apologizing.

 

For years after, she threw that day in my face. Told me that I didn't listen to her, that she told me it was a fertility clinic, I should have known what to expect. She actually called it "d-day". At the exposure of the affair, she told me that it all fell apart, in her mind, that day.

 

Enter electronic forensics.. Even though it was years ago, I was able to recover some messages she sent to her friend before that appointment. She told her friend "It's the next step for helping with my endometriosis" and that they were specialists in dealing with these issues. Which is exactly what she actually did tell me; NOT what she re-wrote history to be (I told you it was a fertility clinic, you should have known what to expect). Of all the things I found, including the love notes back and forth to the A partner, this was, BY FAR, the most damaging.

 

See, I'd been apologizing for that day for years. I felt like a complete jacka**, and I really did believe, in my mind, that she had told me what to expect and I just didn't want to hear it. But it was all a lie; she told me the same thing she told her friend; there was no reason for me to think that day would involve masturbating in a little room or dozens of sexual questions posed to me. And she threw that day in my face for years, she let it eat me alive and let me apologize hundreds of times for something that she had to know (at least in the beginning) that I did not do. I was furious; I just lost it when confronting her with that. An A is one thing, but letting someone you love beat themselves to death for years, and, at times, actively picking up the bat to beat me with it too when I didn't even do it? It honestly hurt more than anything else I found because it had been so long, and I carried such pain for my actions that day. I couldn't (and can't) believe she let me carry that burden. The only explanation is that she simply couldn't come to grips with the reality, both that I didn't really want kids, and that we were in an IVF clinic and they were telling her "It's not gonna happen". But, OMG, was I pissed, especially since it was so long before the A.

[Overtaxed]

A list at this point is a bad idea. Cheaters commonly reinvent history and exaggerate their spouse's failings in order to blame shift the cause of the affair onto their spouse. You asking for such a list from her now, would only reinforce the blame shifting in her mind and produce a false list. My dad had such a list after his affair, but a few years later admitted to me in private that looking back on it the list of my mom's failings were unfair and had nothing to do with the affair. Also, it would in effect be rewarding her for cheating, and would be viewed by her as you doing the pick me dance. Again, the list at this time is a very bad idea, and should not be done at this time.

 

Sorry to reply twice, but, out of curiosity, what did your father come to believe was the actual cause of his affair?

[Try]

Sorry to reply twice, but, out of curiosity, what did your father come to believe was the actual cause of his affair?

I know because I was there as a little boy when he met her. She chatted him up and made him feel young and handsome again. When she learned that we went there without my mom every week (my dad always tried to get her to come until he met her), she started coming and bumping into us there on a regular basis. Eventually, they had what would now be called an emotional affair that turned into a physical affair. He told me that he was not looking for an affair, but that the affair found him. That talking to her was like a drug. He never meant to leave my mom, and when he was caught threw the other woman under the bus. It was just the high that had him addicted. The funny thing was that my mom was the same age, much prettier, and much smarter than the other woman; none of my dad's friends could believe that if he was going to cheat on my mom that he would pick her to do it with.

[elaine567]

we went into a Dr's office together for, in my eyes, the purposes of helping her with some of her female issues (painful period). That Dr, however, was in a fertility clinic. I went in thinking I was there to support her, and, 30 minutes into the consult, was told to go "into the little room and do my thing" and then, after that, come in to sit with my wife while she got a pelvic exam. Well, I lost it. I was unable to control my emotions, and I basically had a meltdown in the office. My wife was just devastated, and I knew it. She didn't come home for hours after that (we drove separate) and I felt like a total a**. The next day, I went back, "did my thing" and started the process of apologizing.

 

For years after, she threw that day in my face. Told me that I didn't listen to her, that she told me it was a fertility clinic, I should have known what to expect. She actually called it "d-day". At the exposure of the affair, she told me that it all fell apart, in her mind, that day.

 

 

I think you should let her go and have the chance of having kids with someone else.

It doesn't really matter who was right or wrong here at the fertility clinic, YOU had a meltdown in the Drs office and I can see how that would have been devastating for a woman who was so desperate for children that she probably didn't tell you the real truth about the appt. as she knew you would have refused point blank to come to a fertility clinic.

The main issue here is children, or lack thereof and if you have still no intention of paying for IVF then do not waste your time even trying to reconcile with her.

[Overtaxed]

I know because I was there as a little boy when he met her. She chatted him up and made him feel young and handsome again. When she learned that we went there without my mom every week (my dad always tried to get her to come until he met her), she started coming and bumping into us there on a regular basis. Eventually, they had what would now be called an emotional affair that turned into a physical affair. He told me that he was not looking for an affair, but that the affair found him. That talking to her was like a drug. He never meant to leave my mom, and when he was caught threw the other woman under the bus. It was just the high that had him addicted. The funny thing was that my mom was the same age, much prettier, and much smarter than the other woman; none of my dad's friends could believe that if he was going to cheat on my mom that he would pick her to do it with.

 

Tell me about it, I wonder the same thing about my wife's AP. I'm richer, younger, better looking, probably smarter (although, to be fair, he's pretty smart), and, of course, not married to someone else with a few young kids. It's just amazing to me that she'd pick him. Maybe she just wanted to be with someone who's ego could fit into a single zip code? (this is a joke, I hope someone reading this laughs; I feel like all of us in this forum need it!). In some ways it's good, because I'm not physically intimidated by him; if the guy was incredibly good looking/built or really rich, it would be harder; that's for sure. But it does make you wonder about the heart; where does it get it's radar? Because it sure seems off in a lot of cases!

[Overtaxed]

I think you should let her go and have the chance of having kids with someone else.

It doesn't really matter who was right or wrong here at the fertility clinic, YOU had a meltdown in the Drs office and I can see how that would have been devastating for a woman who was so desperate for children that she probably didn't tell you the real truth about the appt. as she knew you would have refused point blank to come to a fertility clinic.

The main issue here is children, or lack thereof and if you have still no intention of paying for IVF then do not waste your time even trying to reconcile with her.

 

I've thought exactly those thoughts myself. And maybe it is the right answer, but it's very hard for me to accept. Even with IVF, starting right now, her chances are probably in the 10% range (assuming a healthy male partner, which I'm not). Every year that passes, that falls further. To have a realistic shot at this, she needs someone who comes into her life in the next year or 2, has enough money to pay for, best case, 5 rounds of IVF, most likely 8-12 rounds. She likely won't be able to work during some of this because she needs some pretty extensive surgery to even have a shot at it. And, even then, there's a decent chance that it won't happen. I used the example before, I kind of feel like this is like me deciding I want to date a supermodel and leaving my wife to "follow my dream". Sure, I suppose it could happen, but it's pretty darn unlikely; what's more likely is I leave her and find myself alone, without her, and no supermodel to keep the bed warm with me.

 

I'd agree with you if she was likely to naturally conceive, finding a guy who wants to have kids probably won't be all that difficult for her. But finding a guy who has the $$ to do what's needed, and the "grit" to deal with multiple rounds of IVF, all in time to beat the clock? IDK, maybe I'm pessimistic, but I think the chances are really slim.

 

I would not have refused to go to a fertility clinic, just so you know. However, I probably would have had a real heart to heart with her before we went and then after when they told us the realistic probabilities. And yes, I know it was devastating. But it wasn't my fault; that's the important thing, I simply had no way of knowing what she was really intending, and, sitting in a doctors office thinking your there to support your wife and then finding out you need to fill up a cup.. IDK, I think most people would have had a negative reaction to that.

[BluesPower]

OT, I get that the children thing is a big deal to her. I get that you also told her you did not want children.

 

I as a father can't really understand it but you are free to choose your course in life like everyone is.

 

But let me tell you something about being alone. I am not a good looking as I used to be, I have a couple of extra pounds, but continuing to lose some weight, I am 52. I have a great job, I am a very confident man, and I am still one of the local hot musicians.

 

Dude, I literally have women hanging off of me. Men in our age group that have been around, have a few bucks, and know how to treat a woman in the bed room, have so many options it is kind of ridiculous.

 

Since I have decided to divorce, I am having more fun than a pig in slop.

 

With your money, you will have zero trouble finding a wonderful woman...

[elaine567]

I've thought exactly those thoughts myself. And maybe it is the right answer, but it's very hard for me to accept. Even with IVF, starting right now, her chances are probably in the 10% range (assuming a healthy male partner, which I'm not). Every year that passes, that falls further. To have a realistic shot at this, she needs someone who comes into her life in the next year or 2, has enough money to pay for, best case, 5 rounds of IVF, most likely 8-12 rounds. She likely won't be able to work during some of this because she needs some pretty extensive surgery to even have a shot at it. And, even then, there's a decent chance that it won't happen. I used the example before, I kind of feel like this is like me deciding I want to date a supermodel and leaving my wife to "follow my dream". Sure, I suppose it could happen, but it's pretty darn unlikely; what's more likely is I leave her and find myself alone, without her, and no supermodel to keep the bed warm with me.

 

I'd agree with you if she was likely to naturally conceive, finding a guy who wants to have kids probably won't be all that difficult for her. But finding a guy who has the $$ to do what's needed, and the "grit" to deal with multiple rounds of IVF, all in time to beat the clock? IDK, maybe I'm pessimistic, but I think the chances are really slim.

 

The chances of her having children, may or may not be pretty slim but the fact that YOU hold the key to her happiness, and the fact that YOU do not want to attempt the IVF and that YOU get to make that decision FOR her, is the huge bone of contention here and no doubt the source of most if not all of the resentment on her part.

BY Oh so logically minimising her chances of success and refusing the IVF, whilst time marches ever onward, YOU will very likely get what you want ie no kids and SHE ends up bitter and twisted as all her opportunities to have kids have over the years been blocked by you.

YOU want to keep her around as you do not want to be alone, but that is a selfish way of thinking. Here you have a woman desperate to have children and YOU have no doubt "manipulated" her into staying as by your own admission, she is a woman who is easily manipulated and you are adept at "game playing"..

 

SHE no doubt does not want to leave her marriage as YOU have also tied her up in a harsh and rigid prenup too, so she is effectively trapped.

She may on the one hand "love" you as her husband, but I guess she seriously "hates" you at the same time.

 

 

I guess part of the reason your wife went looking for an affair is this. She had/has no control in this marriage, you apparently hold all the cards in this marriage, so she rebelled.

 

The Infidelity Megafecta – Non-Sexual Factors

 

So let’s look at the non-sexual issues that rear their ugly heads in the course of an affair:

1. Power and Control

 

There is often an undercurrent of resentment in the cheater’s decision to have an affair, so affairs commonly have a retributive element to them. There are often power struggles within the marriage and even regular compromises can build resentment. In chatting these issues through with cheaters, it is apparent how they often use the affair as a way to exercise their personal power in their lives – they’ve made a significant choice for themselves without having to consult their spouse or compromise their own desires.

During an affair, the cheater has all the control. They possess all the facts and decide who has access to that same level of information. They decide what they tell their spouse, what they tell the affair partner, and what the rules are for the affair. They withhold access to information that might give others power in the situation, and use that withholding to preserve their marriage while enjoying the escape and sanctuary the affair represents.

Whilst few will admit it, an affair is often the cheater’s own private rebellion against societal norms, familial expectations, religious teachings, and their own dissatisfactions. This can covertly undermine a dynamic in which the cheater believes themselves trapped or in some way disadvantaged.