Low sex partner in affair. Fresh d-day

[Overtaxed]

I wondered the same thing. I wondered if she was trying to get knocked up or who knows. I don't believe she's being honest about this entire situation.

 

OT: I remember you saying that you asked her where the condom came from and she had a "ah ha" moment or whatever. I call bull****. She was trying to work out a lie in her head. I absolutely believe they had unprotected sex and she didn't want to admit to that... and that is one of the many reasons you need to do STD testing.

 

I actually got to the bottom of the condoms; I found the stash. Does that mean they always used them? No, not by a long shot. But they certainly used some. I also have some further electronic evidence that indicates they did use condoms; but, as you said, I'm still not 100% convinced. It will be an issue we revisit.

[Overtaxed]

He doesn't need to have kids with her. He already has kids. Presumably, he'd be getting 50-50 custody in a divorce and your wife would have a ready made family that includes young step-children. Bonus: the kids would only be there half the time and the other half she and her man would be free to do as they please.

 

I'm totally making a guess here, but it makes sense that in your wife's mind all she has to do is get her AP to leave his wife and marry her to have the family she wants. Yes, he cheated on his wife, but of course he'd never do that to her. He truly loves her. Yadda yadda yadda.

 

 

:laugh:

 

I nearly choked on my coffee!

 

I tell DH all the time that he's my drug and I am addicted to him. He's 6 ft 1 in, weighs about 260, spends a lot of time when he's not at work lounging around in jammie pants, and he has back hair. Yet, even after 17 years, I think he is the hottest thing since the sun. Go figure, eh?

 

This is exactly where my mind went as I started to think it through. Get the AP to leave wife, she leaves me, bam, ready made family. Of course, they'd be living hand to mouth, and probably only get custody of the kids very rarely because of the APs actions and the fact that the mother almost always gets more custody, but, still, she'd have the "family" she always wanted, and pretty quickly, if she and the AP had moved quickly. Thing is, the AP had no intention of ever leaving his wife. When this was exposed, he immediately moved to R, dropping my wife like a bad habit. He's a serial cheater, this had no meaning for him beyond bedding another man's wife (or just another woman). So all of the discussion about "running away together" was just that; empty talk. My wife and I actually talked about that aspect last night, and she said she enjoyed how he would talk to the future without any basis in reality, just to paint the picture. This is something I never do, I don't "imagine" or discuss a future that's not reasonable/realistic, so I can see how that would be attractive (but she also is now starting to see that it was BS; I think she was used to me, when I started talking about something, it was going to happen, she probably thought the same thing of the AP which, of course, was not true).

[Overtaxed]

Hi Folks, all those people trying to convince OT to drop his wife to dump his wife are flogging a dead horse in my opinion. Early on in this thread I had figured out that the thrust of OT's endeavours were to reconcile with his wife even if that meant bending backwards to accommodate her. Whatever may be his reasons for doing and thinking so I guess we should respect his position as it pertains to his own peculiar( particular) situation. He has his reasons and one cannot dispute those. Right in the beginning I had posted that there were so many points on which the two of them were incompatible and these points of incompatibility were serious enough to justify a divorce after his wife's infidelity. However, t all seemed like water on duck's back for OT, which is when I realized that he had made up his mind to reconcile, come what may. From that point onward I stopped trying to do so and in fact started offering advice more conducive to helping him in other ways.

 

I guess in light of the above we should all try and give him the kind of advice that will help him on his chosen path.

 

OT if I may ask, does your wife have healthy ovaries? I always thought that eggs required for IVF were taken directly from the ovaries and if that be the case, if her ovaries are healthy then there should not really be a problem with recovering good eggs from her. As far as you are concerned, if you have a low sperm count then I think there is a procedure where the clinics use gyro separators for separating healthy sperm from defective ones and concentrating them for use. There is also the procedure where, if you two are willing, then a donor's sperm is mixed in, keeping in mind that the donor is similar to you in skin,hair and eye colour and of the same ethnicity as you. Also IVF procedures may be cheaper in some developing countries by a very large margin. As such you and your wife could take a tourist trip to such countries and get the procedure carried out, all for less than what it would cost you in the US. This is just a thought in case you think that this is very important for your wife. Hope you are doing well otherwise. Warm wishes.

 

Just to be clear, what I've really made up my mind is to give her a chance to R. Will it work? I have no idea. But I feel that she deserves the chance to try (why, I have no idea). So, right now, my endeavor is to understand (which means knowing what really happened, what was really going on in her head, how much of "us" was compromised to him during the relationship, etc) and then to process, evaluate her behavior and make a decision. Reason I say this, the "you need to get out of there" threads are just as valuable as the the threads that attempt to explain her position and reasons. I need both, they are both helping me draw a picture in my head and figure out, for me, what the right path forward is.

 

I am doing OK. Interaction between me and the W have been between "knock down fight" to incredibly intense sex. I think that's normal, but it's not normal for me, I'm an "even keel" kind of guy, not used to huge highs and devastating lows. The truth is coming out more now. The feelings are coming back to her. My pain seems to be a bit less, or, the same, but less often. I'm still in denial. She's still in denial. Blame shifting is still going on, but it's 1/10th of the level it was at the beginning. All in all, it's moving towards R, but, there's a long way to go, and it could be blown up at any minute with more lies.

 

To all the WS's out there. If you're in this situation, please, for everyone's sake, stop with the lies. The last respect you can do for your spouse is to drop it all on them, as much as they want, as fast as possible. The "sparing their feelings"? Should have thought about that before you hopped into bed. Tell them everything, you owe them that and let them decide for themselves. Disclosure over weeks/months is just toxic!

 

Honestly, as stupid as this sounds, if I didn't have the electronic evidence (and conversations), I don't know if I could do this. I'd never know if I ever got at the real truth, and I think that would eat me alive forever.

[Midwestmissy]

There seems to be a common thread that runs through a lot of these very cliche affair stories, resentment. Rather than accept that one is responsible for ones choices over the years, one finds a person to blame - spouse - and all the reasons to cheat become justified.

 

For my wh it was financial success and his shame at not being where he wanted to be business wise. So he told himself that I was never happy no matter what he made, and poof, like a genie out of a bottle, mow appeared to blow sunshine up his rear. Of course she thought she was sleeping with a stinking rich guy and behaved accordingly.

 

If my dreams of say, being a novelist (not my dream, btw) never pan out, I can blame needy kids, cheating husband, whatever - but in the end, had I really wanted to write, I could have - parenting involves a lot of waiting around, I've been a sahm for 19 years and I have 7 more years before my youngest leaves. The only one to blame for not fulfilling my dreams is me. I've sacrificed nothing, I just actually didn't try. But how easy would it be to resent my wh for working too much and not allowing me the uninterrupted time I now believe all writers have? Truth is, I could have pumped out 20 books. But rather than look at my own laziness and face it hard, easier to say I gave everything to everyone else and I never fulfilled myself. It's not a big leap.

 

Sounds like your ww has held you responsible for her choices and happiness. She's re written a lot so that she's blameless and childless. She just doesn't want to face the fact that she was in on every choice. I'm very well educated and married to an entrepreneur. The amount of time he works gives me all the freedom in the world, frankly, with kids now in school. What I do with that time is on me. If it's unfulfilling, it's not his fault. He hit 45, wasn't a billionaire and threw a hissy fit, screaming that I was disappointed that he wasn't a billionaire. Not even remotely true. However, finding a woman who believed he was that guy was totally justified in his mind. It's really a mind warp. He just couldn't sit comfortably with his true self, and no amount of false flattery and speed dial oral sex was going to get him there.

 

And your wife needs an ic who is also versed in sex therapy. I agree that she's been getting crap counselling. She needs to own all of this like yesterday. I think your staying or leaving is very personal and both choices can work out for you, so don't listen to folks who tell you you must leave. What makes the difference is how much work your wife is willing to do for herself. It's not easy to face ones shame and shortcomings, but the right therapist and your wife's resolve make all the difference. And as for not wanting kids, folks need to let that go too - you completely trusted your wife when she agreed. She agreed. Her inner conflict is not your fault, her dishonesty has hurt you both.

 

And her ap sounds like a complete loser.

[elaine567]

Interaction between me and the W have been between "knock down fight" to incredibly intense sex.

 

Its called hysterical bonding.

Betrayed Wives' Club: Hysterical bonding or Why do I want sex with my unfaithful husband?

 

The Humiliating Dance of 'Pick Me!' | The Huffington Post

[merrmeade]

Just to be clear, what I've really made up my mind is to give her a chance to R. Will it work? I have no idea. But I feel that she deserves the chance to try (why, I have no idea). So, right now, my endeavor is to understand (which means knowing what really happened, what was really going on in her head, how much of "us" was compromised to him during the relationship, etc) and then to process, evaluate her behavior and make a decision. Reason I say this, the "you need to get out of there" threads are just as valuable as the the threads that attempt to explain her position and reasons. I need both, they are both helping me draw a picture in my head and figure out, for me, what the right path forward is.

Just for the record, I totally get this because I did it, too. However, I think maybe you don't get how contradictory it may sound which is where all the "WTF?!!" posts come from. IOW, by your own admission you've decided to R knowing you don't have all the information. YOu're going to R (but you might not). Just so you know, your WS will take that as a home free, in-the-bag pass to keep on lying where she feels the truth would be a deal-breaker. You'll see.

 

And this is why:

... there's a long way to go, and it could be blown up at any minute with more lies.

 

To all the WS's out there. If you're in this situation, please, for everyone's sake, stop with the lies. The last respect you can do for your spouse is to drop it all on them, as much as they want, as fast as possible. The "sparing their feelings"? Should have thought about that before you hopped into bed. Tell them everything, you owe them that and let them decide for themselves. Disclosure over weeks/months is just toxic!

 

Honestly, as stupid as this sounds, if I didn't have the electronic evidence (and conversations), I don't know if I could do this. I'd never know if I ever got at the real truth, and I think that would eat me alive forever.

I'm sorry to say, but having been there, thought and done that, it WILL eat you alive forever OR you will say to yourself one day (changing the gender, of course):

"Well, Me: You've gotten the gist of it and the rock bottom essence of him—how far he can go deluding himself; how much of his own scumbag behavior he can bear to bare. You've gotten his MO—how he begins, what situations and interactions push his buttons, how and why he lets himself play the game and how he rug-sweeps once he's done.

 

No point in more knock-down-drag-outs to get just one more corroboration of what you already know. Besides, he won't change because he won't look at it. And he won't look at it because you already missed that window of opportunity for the 'truth' because you gave him a passs in the beginning when you said you were reconciling unless you find out something new, more incriminating and unforgivable.

 

Wank. THat's enough of his 'truths.' Don't need more examples of the same. I have other more important things to do." Let's go find happiness elsewhere and see him for supper and sex. Okay, Me?

 

Deal.

Of course, I was dealing with a serial cheater grown old. Unique situation. You, on the other hand, Overtaxed, are processing the Wayward Spouse phenomenon for the very first time and treating your wife as the individual she is while weighing all the sage advice you're getting from seasoned infidelity experts.

 

It's hard because you want to believe that you guys are different. And, hey, you might be. My one piece of advice would be to let some cynicism in - not too much; just enough - and look at WW as a cheater and liar trying to save herself from disgrace. Makes it easier (and it's true).

 

Okay here's th part where I have questions:

I am doing OK. Interaction between me and the W have been between "knock down fight" to incredibly intense sex. I think that's normal, but it's not normal for me, I'm an "even keel" kind of guy, not used to huge highs and devastating lows. The truth is coming out more now. The feelings are coming back to her. My pain seems to be a bit less, or, the same, but less often. I'm still in denial. She's still in denial. Blame shifting is still going on, but it's 1/10th of the level it was at the beginning. All in all, it's moving towards R, but, there's a long way to go, and it could be blown up at any minute with more lies.

1. The "knock down fight" - Isn't that justt her trying not to face the ugliness of what she's done?

2. Others explained the intense sex as hysterical bonding.

3. So the three sentences in bold are my questions:

What do you mean by her "feelings are coming back to her"?

What is she in "denial' about?

What would it look like if it were "blown up" by more lies?

[Overtaxed]

Okay here's th part where I have questions:

 

1. The "knock down fight" - Isn't that justt her trying not to face the ugliness of what she's done?

2. Others explained the intense sex as hysterical bonding.

3. So the three sentences in bold are my questions:

What do you mean by her "feelings are coming back to her"?

What is she in "denial' about?

What would it look like if it were "blown up" by more lies?

 

1. Yes, I suspect your right. At the height of the fight, she let some real "ugly" of the A out. Deal breaker kind of stuff (at least for a man).

 

2. I suspect you're right.

 

3. Feelings are coming back to her, she's been totally cold/clinical until recently. I'd ask her to tell me what happened, and it would be like she's telling me a story about a friend, not about her. No emotion. No shame/remorse. Just a detached story about something she heard, instead of something she lived (and did to another person).

 

I think she's in denial all over the place. Denial about what her life looks like if I leave. Denial about what she did, and who's fault it was. Denial that she could even do it, even though she was right there and did it. Denial that her chances of her own children are near 0 if I leave (and very slim, even if I stay and agree). Just layer on layer of denial.

 

3. The last one is easy. Blown up by more lies? She leaves the house, she loses her job, I leave to the new house we bought together and she's left to put together the pieces. That's what "blown up" looks like to me. I just don't think she realizes how high the stakes are. The other night when she was lying and I told her to leave; if she had, I probably would have gone for the nuclear option that evening. Disclose to everyone, talk to an attorney, and get ready to move on.

[understand50]

1. Yes, I suspect your right. At the height of the fight, she let some real "ugly" of the A out. Deal breaker kind of stuff (at least for a man).

 

2. I suspect you're right.

 

3. Feelings are coming back to her, she's been totally cold/clinical until recently. I'd ask her to tell me what happened, and it would be like she's telling me a story about a friend, not about her. No emotion. No shame/remorse. Just a detached story about something she heard, instead of something she lived (and did to another person).

 

I think she's in denial all over the place. Denial about what her life looks like if I leave. Denial about what she did, and who's fault it was. Denial that she could even do it, even though she was right there and did it. Denial that her chances of her own children are near 0 if I leave (and very slim, even if I stay and agree). Just layer on layer of denial.

 

3. The last one is easy. Blown up by more lies? She leaves the house, she loses her job, I leave to the new house we bought together and she's left to put together the pieces. That's what "blown up" looks like to me. I just don't think she realizes how high the stakes are. The other night when she was lying and I told her to leave; if she had, I probably would have gone for the nuclear option that evening. Disclose to everyone, talk to an attorney, and get ready to move on.

 

Overtaxed,

 

If you are really going to give reconciliation a try, I would suggest, as you plot out what you are going to do, or how you are going to respond, to ask yourself one question: "how does this help or hurt the reconciliation"?

 

Reconciliation does not happen over night, it takes a long time, sometimes it is ongoing for the rest of the marriage, in that you "work" at the marriage, more then if infidelity had never happened. You may also find that you are going to have to take the lead here. Your wife is in defense mode. Part of her ego, cannot fathom what she has done, so will detach, become unemotional, as she tries to tell you what happened. It not that she does not care, but it is too bad to handle any other way. I think the way to overcome this both for you and her, is to take the "clash" of of the retelling. Schedule a weekly time to take about this, and enforce not taking about this in between. Ask that she think about it and how she needs to respond. Have her read the two links that I gave you, and other have as well. We are not born knowing how to do this.

 

I think the first question any BS should ask, is if the affair is over, and what are the odds she, or he, will do it again. What does your "gut" say? From reading what you have stated, it looks like she was manipulated to a great extent. Does not let her off the hook, but does show if the OM had not crossed paths with her, nothing would have happened. Again, does not excuse, but shows that you may have a future in reconciliation. Taking to her, about how this happened and the things he did to make it so may be helpful for both of you. If your answer is that you are confident that she will not do this again. BTW, everyone can cheat, it is a question of ODDS, I think after all the work in reconciliation, you will be successful. FWS can be the most trustworthy again after all the work of reconciliation, and I would not bet against them. The next step is moving on to help her find true remorse. This is a large part of reconciliation. We have one FWS, here that took 30 years to find out what her BS really needed. I would say I am in the same position with my wife.

 

Keep in mind that your wife, just may not never really know what is needed. merrmeade's husband is one example. He is not going to cheat again, but he really does not get it, and may never. He has come along way, but he will always be a work in progress. I would have to say the same for my wife, but for different reasons. Where your wife will fall, I do not know, but from reading you, I think you are going to have to be the guide, and help her. You love her, and this may be what you have to do for her. Not that she does not love you, she just does not understand.

 

So my advise, try and have no more knock down fights. In the end it just make things harder to reconcile. Work towards a place where you can talk and explore what happened and why. Comply talk is better for both of you, and it will take some time, but it will work. In the end you will make more progress, and both of you can put some of the hurt aside. Remember, she must be in fear, removing this is a large part of reconciliation. She will also have to work to remove the fear from you as well, and that is why it is hard work on both sides.

 

I wish you luck.....

[Overtaxed]

Overtaxed,

 

If you are really going to give reconciliation a try, I would suggest, as you plot out what you are going to do, or how you are going to respond, to ask yourself one question: "how does this help or hurt the reconciliation"?

 

Reconciliation does not happen over night, it takes a long time, sometimes it is ongoing for the rest of the marriage, in that you "work" at the marriage, more then if infidelity had never happened. You may also find that you are going to have to take the lead here. Your wife is in defense mode. Part of her ego, cannot fathom what she has done, so will detach, become unemotional, as she tries to tell you what happened. It not that she does not care, but it is too bad to handle any other way. I think the way to overcome this both for you and her, is to take the "clash" of of the retelling. Schedule a weekly time to take about this, and enforce not taking about this in between. Ask that she think about it and how she needs to respond. Have her read the two links that I gave you, and other have as well. We are not born knowing how to do this.

 

I think the first question any BS should ask, is if the affair is over, and what are the odds she, or he, will do it again. What does your "gut" say? From reading what you have stated, it looks like she was manipulated to a great extent. Does not let her off the hook, but does show if the OM had not crossed paths with her, nothing would have happened. Again, does not excuse, but shows that you may have a future in reconciliation. Taking to her, about how this happened and the things he did to make it so may be helpful for both of you. If your answer is that you are confident that she will not do this again. BTW, everyone can cheat, it is a question of ODDS, I think after all the work in reconciliation, you will be successful. FWS can be the most trustworthy again after all the work of reconciliation, and I would not bet against them. The next step is moving on to help her find true remorse. This is a large part of reconciliation. We have one FWS, here that took 30 years to find out what her BS really needed. I would say I am in the same position with my wife.

 

Keep in mind that your wife, just may not never really know what is needed. merrmeade's husband is one example. He is not going to cheat again, but he really does not get it, and may never. He has come along way, but he will always be a work in progress. I would have to say the same for my wife, but for different reasons. Where your wife will fall, I do not know, but from reading you, I think you are going to have to be the guide, and help her. You love her, and this may be what you have to do for her. Not that she does not love you, she just does not understand.

 

So my advise, try and have no more knock down fights. In the end it just make things harder to reconcile. Work towards a place where you can talk and explore what happened and why. Comply talk is better for both of you, and it will take some time, but it will work. In the end you will make more progress, and both of you can put some of the hurt aside. Remember, she must be in fear, removing this is a large part of reconciliation. She will also have to work to remove the fear from you as well, and that is why it is hard work on both sides.

 

I wish you luck.....

 

Thank you for this, very insightful and helpful. And yes, I'm probably making mistakes myself, I'm not being trusting and re-asking a lot of questions because I want to hear the answers more than once to make sure they "line up", both with the electronic evidence and what she's said before. I'm sure this is tough for her, but it's the only way I know to try to get at the truth. I feel I'm one of those people who needs the "whole truth" to get to R; I can't have the sugar coated version, I can't have the "high level" details. I need the truth. What happened, what was said (in general), and then, after that, why.

 

"Defense mode". That's a great description. It's kind of like how people walk around after a car accident, IMHO. The "her" I know does peek out from time to time, but, much of the time, it's like she's just a look alike of my wife, walking around our house and going through the motions. Telling me things that I know my wife couldn't do (but I know she did) like she's recounting her day yesterday at the grocery store. I don't know how to explain it other than "freaky".

 

My guy says "She could never do this". So, lot of good that does me. But, a more serious answer, even reading it all and having dozens of hours of conversations, my gut still tells me "This isn't her". And if "she" comes back, I honestly don't think there's any chance she'd repeat. The hard thing is, that's exactly what I thought before this happened, and I was, obviously, completely wrong. As mentioned before, we'd talked about divorce in some detail, and I honestly believed that if we did D, it would be because we had some differences (kids) in our marriage that simply could not be worked out, not because she had something on the side. She's a terribly loyal person (to a fault, she defends people who honestly, don't deserve her as a friend), and she also has, what I would consider a deep moral code internally. No way her moral code would allow this behavior, another reason I not only didn't look for it as our relationship deteriorated, it never even crossed my mind.

 

I am acutely aware that anyone can cheat; and what you said about "odds" is exactly why I'm so careful when I travel for business. I'm almost ashamed of it, but I've "hid" from situations that I think are risky for over a decade now. Meet up with the guys for a few drinks after work? Nope, not doing it (probably to the detriment of my career) because I know exactly where that leads. Go down to the hotel bar for dinner? Nope, room service/take out; no way I'm going to sit down there with women all around me who have no husbands in sight and bedrooms within a 5 minute walk. I know I could cheat, I'm acutely aware of it, and I guard against it like someone working at a Supermax prison. The best way to prevent it, IMHO, is to reduce the odds as much as possible; stay away from situations that lead to it, and try to minimize my time alone with women who aren't friends of our marriage as much as humanly possible. Do I miss some genuine friendships because of this? Yeah, I do. Has it kept me from sleeping around? Yes, I'm absolutely positive it has. Because I do so much travel, the opportunity is "in my face" all the time and I just don't know of a way to deal with that other than making sure that I spend as little time as possible in situations that can escalate.

 

Your advice is almost exactly what we're doing. I hate fighting with her (or anyone actually). It's totally out of character for me to scream "Get out" at her; and I never, NEVER want to have to do it again. If I decide I can't deal with it and we have to D, I don't intend to do that by packing her back while she's at work and telling her to leave; I'd tell her I'm divorcing her and give her to choice to stay in our home or leave, and probably leave myself to our other home after a few days to pack. My character is just not that of someone to burn the bed in the front yard, or to throw her clothes out the window and change the locks. It's not me. But, I'll tell you, having someone lie to your face and do so with apparently no remorse will get even the calmest of people to a point where they're throwing clothes out the window!

 

Be the guide; I like how you put that. It's just a terribly difficult position, especially when you don't trust some of the things coming from the other person. The trust HAS TO BE restored, once that's better, then I think I can start to guide both of us, either back together or apart, but at least start to make some rational decisions and not just reactions based on out of control emotions. I hope to get there soon; she's been writing to me more and starting to let more of it out. I feel like she's going to get there, at least on the disclosure, which, IMHO, is a big step.

 

For those following this thread an curious, we just put together a pretty good weekend. A lot of talking, much of it about the A, but also some stuff that neither of us had ever told the other (more from me than from her) about things that happened way before the A, some of them before we met. Just disclosing more of our character and "how we got to here" or "how we became the people we are today". I know, we've been together a long time to not have these talks, but some of it just never came up, or didn't seem important to share. It feels good to let that kind of honesty out, especially since there's such a cloud of dishonesty over the relationship right now. But, it was good, probably our best weekend since this happened (also good because we had a lot of time together without distractions). We're both home (no travel) this week, so hopefully we can use this time as much as possible to do some fun things together, spend some time talking, and try to get through the final disclosure of the A.

[S2B]

If she wants to reconcile and you still have questions then schedule a polygraph for her.

 

You need honest answers? Then have her take the test and answer all the questions you have.

 

If she won't - then you have your answer sooner.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Overtaxed, after having read Merrmeade's insightful post and your reply to it I am really coming around to believe that there is only one way out of this dilemma that you face. You have to divorce even if you wish to save the relationship by retrieving it at a later date. You see at the moment you are in a limbo. You do not know definitively where your relationship is going. It could lead to reconciliation or it could go bust depending on factors beyond your control. Your wife stopping lying is completely out of your control. The Blow up's and hysterical bonding are also, in a way, out of your control. Your wife coming to the realization of what she stands to lose is completely out of your control. The only way you can wrest a modicum of control is if you force the issue with her, divorce her, let her face the harsh reality of life without you around to hold her up so that she comes to her senses with a resounding thud. In fact, you do not even have to proceed with a divorce to it's culmination. Just tell her that you have had enough of her shenanigans and that you are done with the marriage. Tell her you are filing and then actually do so. I think that is the time time things will start to fall into place for her and she will finally realize the enormity of her folly. I guess she has been having her cake and eating it for too long. She needs a jolt of 33K volts to wake her up. Once she wakes up from her slumber and hits the hard floor she will turn around 180* and start showing true remorse and doing the heavy lifting that people talk about, to help you reconcile with her. If you find at that stage that things are moving satisfactorily in the right direction, you have the option of calling off the divorce but do not be in too much of a hurry to do so. Retain the control that you lack right now. I am reminded of the ' Pick me dance" that people talk about here. It seems to me that you are doing a modified version of that dance, not quite as pathetic as some BS have done in the past but nevertheless 'The Dance' no doubt. If that continues your WW is likely to make you keep dancing to her tune for a long long time and maybe forever.

 

I know you will not like this trend of thinking and you will most likely ignore all that I have said. However I had to get this out there as I have been getting this feeling that you are in limbo and as I said somewhere before, you are bending over backwards to accommodate your wife. She is currently deaf and does not hear you. Warm wishes.

[elaine567]

The only way you can wrest a modicum of control is if you force the issue with her, divorce her, let her face the harsh reality of life without you around to hold her up so that she comes to her senses with a resounding thud. In fact, you do not even have to proceed with a divorce to it's culmination. Just tell her that you have had enough of her shenanigans and that you are done with the marriage. Tell her you are filing and then actually do so. I think that is the time time things will start to fall into place for her and she will finally realize the enormity of her folly.

 

I know you will not like this trend of thinking and you will most likely ignore all that I have said. However I had to get this out there as I have been getting this feeling that you are in limbo and as I said somewhere before, you are bending over backwards to accommodate your wife. She is currently deaf and does not hear you. Warm wishes.

 

I agree that the wife appears to be is in some sort of "dissociative state" due I am sure to the trauma of it all.

However I am not sure if threats of divorce will shock her out of it or just introduce even more "distance".

If this essentially was a solid marriage then the "divorce strategy" may indeed shock her into action, but this was a marriage struggling on its last legs with divorce already on the cards anyway, so I think she may just roll over and go "Fine, if that is what you want then carry on, divorce me, I deserve it..."

Which if the OP truly wants reconciliation then that is the last thing he wants to hear.

 

I am not sure if the wife has it in her at the moment to fight for her marriage, even if reconciliation is what she truly wants deep down.

She sounds shut down and in "autopilot mode".

Is she in counselling?

[Chaparral]

Think about limiting your affair talks to a limited time. For example 1 hr per day, every other day or what ever you choose. Neither of you need to be worried all the time and everyone needs a bit of respite from constant worry.

[Overtaxed]

I agree that the wife appears to be is in some sort of "dissociative state" due I am sure to the trauma of it all.

However I am not sure if threats of divorce will shock her out of it or just introduce even more "distance".

If this essentially was a solid marriage then the "divorce strategy" may indeed shock her into action, but this was a marriage struggling on its last legs with divorce already on the cards anyway, so I think she may just roll over and go "Fine, if that is what you want then carry on, divorce me, I deserve it..."

Which if the OP truly wants reconciliation then that is the last thing he wants to hear.

 

I am not sure if the wife has it in her at the moment to fight for her marriage, even if reconciliation is what she truly wants deep down.

She sounds shut down and in "autopilot mode".

Is she in counselling?

 

She is in counseling (as am I), but I'm not thrilled with the advice she's getting (this is the therapist who told her, after d-day, to take a month long sabbatical away from everyone, including me, to figure things out). We are also going to start CT soon; we've just not yet had time to get that scheduled.

 

What you quoted above sounds, word for word, like something my wife would say when she's dissociated. "Divorce me, I understand and I deserve it". But she'd say it with no feeling; and, that's not her. Even if she does want a D, we have so much happy history together that it would/should crush her to think about. And the reality of after D life for her basically means no kids, and loss of most of the material things that we have and she enjoys. Sometimes she seems to get it, other times not so much.

 

However, were we really a marriage on our last legs? I'm sure my wife would say yes. But, as I said before, we'd talk about D, and I'd walk away from the discussion like "What the heck are we talking about". The next day, we'd have fun together, have sex, talk about plans for the future.. I'm telling you, it was just a mind f*** roller coaster. Yes, we talked as if our marriage was on the last legs and then acted as if we were a stable/happy couple. And spent a lot more time in the stable/happy category than talking about D. I think right now, after we've had a few weeks to talk, filing for D would be a shock to her. D-day? She told me, that's what she expected (me to file and boot her out). I guess nobody knows anyone until your in this situation; I would have thought I'd be a "get out" guy. But I wasn't, it never even crossed my mind to not try to see what happened and see if it's fixable. Honestly, in some ways, it was a sigh of relief; there were so many missing pieces in the last few months; us talking about D, our interactions, the plans we were "half making" together.. Discover brought it into focus, it was an "Ah ha, this is what was really going on" moment. Not that I was happy, but I hate things I can't understand, and, until discovery, I simply did not understand why our relationship was swirling the drain, especially as we got ready to do something together that she always wanted to do (complete reno on a home; yes, it was one of her dreams, and we were in the process when the A happened).

[Overtaxed]

Think about limiting your affair talks to a limited time. For example 1 hr per day, every other day or what ever you choose. Neither of you need to be worried all the time and everyone needs a bit of respite from constant worry.

 

I've been thinking about doing this as well. It's hard, because I'm so information deprived that I'm desperate to understand and get the details out so I can make a decision and start to move forward. But there's fatigue on both sides, I'm tired of taking the punches, and I think she's tired of dishing them out. So I'm thinking a "cease fire" for a few days might be a good thing. It's very difficult, it's the only thing on my mind since D-day, I'm having about 0 productivity at work, and, even when I'm with her, all I can think about is how many lies are left to come out.

 

I'm going to talk with her about this tonight and see what she thinks.

[MJJean]

Overtaxed, you say things that concern me as a former WW.

 

First, the therapist may have been absolutely correct in the advice given based on the information available. You have no way of knowing what your wife says in counseling. She may be expressing her confusion and the standard advice when confused is to take a step back and try to see the forest for the trees.

 

Hysterical bonding is a thing. Sex produces bonding hormones and these hormones make us see our partners through rose colored glasses. When those hormones wear off, we're left without those glasses. This is one of the reasons people say to wait to have sex until you get to know someone. You don't want to accidentally bond to a loser, right?

 

Now, translate that to a marriage in trouble. The therapist probably suggested your wife take a sabbatical to prevent the hysterical bonding and hormone rush so that you two could see each other clearly and make a decision without clouded thinking.

 

Second, I don't think you know your wife as well as you think you do. You mentioned many times you never thought she could do something like what she has done, yet she has. You mention she has friends she is too good for, but I submit birds of a feather flock together.

 

Are you familiar with the Billy Joel song The Stranger? When your wife talks to you and you don't recognize her, it's The Stranger that has always been there you're seeing. Basically, her mask has slipped.

 

Third, and most concerning, is that you say she was manipulated. No, she wasn't. Every woman who has had any experience with dating and mating knows when a man is interested in her sexually. We also know, as things progress, where that progression is going to lead. For example, the first kiss. A woman knows when a man is going to kiss her. She could weave and bob then tell him off or she could let it happen. There are a million moments where we could turn back, put a stop to it, and sometimes we just continue on anyways. She may have been future faked, but she knew what she was doing as she was doing it.

 

Here's the worst part. He was future faking. She wasn't. Had he been willing to leave his wife, see his kids half the time, and set up house with her, your wife would likely have been out the door so fast your head would swim.

 

If you want to reconcile, that's great. Just make sure you completely understand who and what you're dealing with while you do it.

 

If you're going to love her, love the real her. Good, bad, and ugly. Don't leave her on the pedestal you've placed her on and don't let her have the victim chair, either.

[Overtaxed]

Overtaxed, you say things that concern me as a former WW.

 

First, the therapist may have been absolutely correct in the advice given based on the information available. You have no way of knowing what your wife says in counseling. She may be expressing her confusion and the standard advice when confused is to take a step back and try to see the forest for the trees.

 

Hysterical bonding is a thing. Sex produces bonding hormones and these hormones make us see our partners through rose colored glasses. When those hormones wear off, we're left without those glasses. This is one of the reasons people say to wait to have sex until you get to know someone. You don't want to accidentally bond to a loser, right?

 

Now, translate that to a marriage in trouble. The therapist probably suggested your wife take a sabbatical to prevent the hysterical bonding and hormone rush so that you two could see each other clearly and make a decision without clouded thinking.

 

Second, I don't think you know your wife as well as you think you do. You mentioned many times you never thought she could do something like what she has done, yet she has. You mention she has friends she is too good for, but I submit birds of a feather flock together.

 

Are you familiar with the Billy Joel song The Stranger? When your wife talks to you and you don't recognize her, it's The Stranger that has always been there you're seeing. Basically, her mask has slipped.

 

Third, and most concerning, is that you say she was manipulated. No, she wasn't. Every woman who has had any experience with dating and mating knows when a man is interested in her sexually. We also know, as things progress, where that progression is going to lead. For example, the first kiss. A woman knows when a man is going to kiss her. She could weave and bob then tell him off or she could let it happen. There are a million moments where we could turn back, put a stop to it, and sometimes we just continue on anyways. She may have been future faked, but she knew what she was doing as she was doing it.

 

Here's the worst part. He was future faking. She wasn't. Had he been willing to leave his wife, see his kids half the time, and set up house with her, your wife would likely have been out the door so fast your head would swim.

 

If you want to reconcile, that's great. Just make sure you completely understand who and what you're dealing with while you do it.

 

If you're going to love her, love the real her. Good, bad, and ugly. Don't leave her on the pedestal you've placed her on and don't let her have the victim chair, either.

 

I'm trying to figure out who the "real her" is. After 15 years, it's hard to imagine that someone had a mask on all that time. But there's obviously some things about her that I didn't know (beyond the A, personality traits, etc). So it's difficult to figure out who she really is after this.

 

I'm not sure she would have "been out the door so fast". IMHO, she didn't realize he was future faking (he absolutely was, BTW). I think she really did picture them together, even if for brief moments, and realized "This isn't going to work". Also, her actions during the A, particularly sexually, were not something she'd be able to keep up long term. She's low sex, and yet, during the A, portrayed and acted otherwise. Of course, it was new, so that's to be expected, but there's no way she'd fall into a routine with the OM that would look anything like what they had during the A. And it's not just me, long before the A we talked about her other relationships, and she was always low sex.

 

My wife's "radar" for when men are sexually interested in her is not very good. Sure, in this situation, it was obvious as he**, she knew he was interested and took steps to mature that interest, no excuses there. But, going through her phone, I found another set of TXT messages from a guy at work; and I could see both sides of the discussion here. He was showing clear sexual interest and she was completely blind to it. Her messages back to him were totally innocent. But when confronted, she could not believe that he was sexually interested in her. I pulled the messages and showed her, in sequence, what he was trying to do (and, frankly, it was nearly the same script that the AP pulled) and she just could not believe it. She really does want to see the best in people, and I love that part of her. She also doesn't realize how attractive she is, again, a very endearing feature, but also very dangerous, because she's not "on guard" like most attractive women are.

 

Simple facts, I'm a man. I know how men think. And I know that MOST of the men she interacts with on a daily basis have had some kind of "impure" thoughts about her. Most people would love to sleep with her. It doesn't make them bad men, it makes them human, and she's really struggling with this; she wants to see everyone's intentions as pure. And, as a man, I can say with near 100% clarity, if you're trying to build an emotional connection with an attractive woman, 99% of the time, those intentions are NOT pure. She doesn't want to see people like this, but, sadly, it's the way it is. Most men would scratch their eyes out to get in bed with her; it's something she has to understand and learn to recognize. Doesn't mean you can't have friends, but it does mean you have to "shut it down hard" as soon as those step over the line at all. And women are no better; I was at a work event after d-day and a work colleague there (woman), approached me, rejected her, looked me up in the corporate directory and sent me over a few TXT messages. I didn't respond to them, but I did save them to show the wife. Not because they are graphic, but the opposite, because they appear so innocent. She looked at them and said something like "OK, but what's wrong with this". What's wrong is that the women has NO interest in being my friend or getting to know me. She wants to sleep with me, and is using the "camel's nose" to get me TXTing her to establish a connection. I know the games, I know the tricks, and I won't "play along" or play with fire and keep a TXT exchange going. She works with me, we attend work events together, and I know that is CRAZY dangerous to have her as a "friend" when it's clear she has other intentions in mind. I have to get my wife to understand that about herself, and see this in other people's intentions.

[Midwestmissy]

It's important to be careful about thinking that the cheater was hiding his or her true self for the entire marriage. What was behind this mask was not an elaborate ruse. People change over time, and unresolved issues from our past can rumble near the surface.

 

My wh would not have been able to articulate his needs and fears before or during the affair. He wasn't ready to look at himself. I've had ows on these forums tell me that I therefore did not know my wh at all ever during my marriage. That's a bit of a leap. We met at 18 and after 30 years we have both changed. So I don't think he kept his true self hidden and I was married to a stranger as a result of a dinky sexual affair, but I think the ugliness of his choices made him look at his motivations and justifications and the light bulb went on. Maybe serial cheaters never look hard at themselves and just carry the issues to each affair.

 

My wh was stranger during the affair for sure. He was cold and heartless and distant and mean. But he wasn't before that or since. None of that is the ow's fault whether she threw herself at him or not. Since this wasn't love, she was the convenient person who was willing to partake. And they worked together, so plausible excuses for everything. It was just running away.

 

When we get married in our twenties, we don't think about the work involved with marriage. We believe that just being together makes it all safe. But a lot of us carry childhood damage and in my case, I never saw it until I was in my thirties. Because of that I didn't realize that I married someone who treated me exactly like my parents had - blame all their shortcomings on me and lean on me for everything. This was normal to me until I had kids. Then I opened my eyes to not tolerating the manipulation.

 

We are taught nothing about interpersonal relationships in school, it's no wonder so many of us do so poorly at them

[wmacbride]

It's important to be careful about thinking that the cheater was hiding his or her true self for the entire marriage. What was behind this mask was not an elaborate ruse. People change over time, and unresolved issues from our past can rumble near the surface.

 

My wh would not have been able to articulate his needs and fears before or during the affair. He wasn't ready to look at himself. I've had ows on these forums tell me that I therefore did not know my wh at all ever during my marriage. That's a bit of a leap. We met at 18 and after 30 years we have both changed. So I don't think he kept his true self hidden and I was married to a stranger as a result of a dinky sexual affair, but I think the ugliness of his choices made him look at his motivations and justifications and the light bulb went on. Maybe serial cheaters never look hard at themselves and just carry the issues to each affair.

 

My wh was stranger during the affair for sure. He was cold and heartless and distant and mean. But he wasn't before that or since. None of that is the ow's fault whether she threw herself at him or not. Since this wasn't love, she was the convenient person who was willing to partake. And they worked together, so plausible excuses for everything. It was just running away.

 

When we get married in our twenties, we don't think about the work involved with marriage. We believe that just being together makes it all safe. But a lot of us carry childhood damage and in my case, I never saw it until I was in my thirties. Because of that I didn't realize that I married someone who treated me exactly like my parents had - blame all their shortcomings on me and lean on me for everything. This was normal to me until I had kids. Then I opened my eyes to not tolerating the manipulation.

 

We are taught nothing about interpersonal relationships in school, it's no wonder so many of us do so poorly at them

 

 

This is so true. People learn and grow throughout their lives, and what a person is when they are 20 is not the person they will be when they are 40.

 

This being said, I do believe that the fundamental core of who your are as a human being doesn't change that much.

 

When I met my husband, he was ( and still is in some ways) a big computer geek- he was the stereotypical D and D playing, computer programming nerd. He was also one of the kindest, fumiest people I have ever met, and we had agreed to get married just a few days after we met one another.

 

While a lot has changed in his life, and he has been through a lot of experiences, both good and bad. The external trapping have sure changed, but at heart, he is still the same kind hearted and gentle person I married almost 20 years ago. That never changed, and I think that is what allowed me to reconcile with him. Underneath all the cr@p, he was still there.

 

Op,

One thing you might want to ask yourself is just how much you love your wife. I'm asking because for a reconciliation really be successful, you are likely going to find yourself swallowing a lot of pain and hurt. When the full weight of what she has done finally slams head on in to who she sees herself and her belief system, it could be a very difficult time for her, and she is going to need your support to get through it, as unfair as that may sound. Do you think you can do that? Is your love for her great enough to be able to do that?

 

I'm a big supporter of seeing a post A marriage as sort of a triage situation. The couple has to treat the most life threatening injuries first ( the A), but at some point, you will both have to work on the issues in your M if you want the reconciliation to be a success. Looking even further in to the future, knowing yourself and your personality as you do, can you see yourself being able to let the A go? That sounds like a lot to ask this early on, but it's so important. I'm not saying you need to forget the A and pretend it never happened, but if your ww is going to spend the rest of her life as some sort of whipping boy, where the A is trotted out every time you two are having problems ( e.g.- ten years down the road it's become a situation where " sure, I may have done something unkind to you, but YOU had an A") . That's no way for either of you to have to live your life. It's also no way to live your life if you will forever be angry at yourself that you stayed.

 

One more point, and then I will stopping bugging you. You have often mentioned how religious you wife is, and I wonder if that is part of why she's finding being childless such a difficult situation to cope with. I have personally known a couple of marriages where the wife is a devout catholic and believe they should have as many children as possible. In one, the wife was not able to have children, and she saw herself as not only a failure as a woman, but a failure in god's eyes and that she was somehow being punished. To me, that is nonsense, but to a true believer, it likely makes a lot of sense and goes well beyond biology.

[understand50]

When my wife and I really started talking to each other, she said that "you do not really know me and I am afraid you will not like me when you find out" I told her, I was looking forward to discovering the real person. We had been married for over 30 years, and the point is people do change, and people do tend to show more of themselves as time goes on. From what you wrote, she seem to have fallen into a ugly situation and was taken advanage off. Again does not let her off the hook for her actions, but I go back to the idea that if she had never met the OM, this may not have happened.

 

So you know more about her. She may be suppressed at what she is capable of. Talking will be a help. This is my meaning of you may have to guide her so you can both she her for all she is. She is, as are us all, both good and bad, with capacity for both love and betrayal. How she handles this going forward, is the measure of if you can reconcile. You have to forgive her, but you will never forget. In forgiving, you can try and help her find her moral self again. She can help you heal. You decided on reconciliation, so what is a good path forward to help things along, while holding to her vows?

 

I wish you luck....

[Overtaxed]

It's important to be careful about thinking that the cheater was hiding his or her true self for the entire marriage. What was behind this mask was not an elaborate ruse. People change over time, and unresolved issues from our past can rumble near the surface.

 

My wh would not have been able to articulate his needs and fears before or during the affair. He wasn't ready to look at himself. I've had ows on these forums tell me that I therefore did not know my wh at all ever during my marriage. That's a bit of a leap. We met at 18 and after 30 years we have both changed. So I don't think he kept his true self hidden and I was married to a stranger as a result of a dinky sexual affair, but I think the ugliness of his choices made him look at his motivations and justifications and the light bulb went on. Maybe serial cheaters never look hard at themselves and just carry the issues to each affair.

 

My wh was stranger during the affair for sure. He was cold and heartless and distant and mean. But he wasn't before that or since. None of that is the ow's fault whether she threw herself at him or not. Since this wasn't love, she was the convenient person who was willing to partake. And they worked together, so plausible excuses for everything. It was just running away.

 

When we get married in our twenties, we don't think about the work involved with marriage. We believe that just being together makes it all safe. But a lot of us carry childhood damage and in my case, I never saw it until I was in my thirties. Because of that I didn't realize that I married someone who treated me exactly like my parents had - blame all their shortcomings on me and lean on me for everything. This was normal to me until I had kids. Then I opened my eyes to not tolerating the manipulation.

 

We are taught nothing about interpersonal relationships in school, it's no wonder so many of us do so poorly at them

 

Man does that "wh was a stranger" comment ring true. It's like I was living with someone who looked like my wife, but wasn't her. And I think a lot of my wife's A was "running away" too. The AP was a terribly unsuitable new partner, both as a love match (ugh, he was cheating on his wife with you; while you were having sex with him, his wife was at home with his kids, you think that won't be you at some point?!) but also for other reasons, including the fact that he's sterile too (if she was trying to find someone to have a child with).

 

The unresolved issue in my married is clear (at least in my mind). Children. And it's been rumbling for over a decade.

[Overtaxed]

Op,

One thing you might want to ask yourself is just how much you love your wife. I'm asking because for a reconciliation really be successful, you are likely going to find yourself swallowing a lot of pain and hurt. When the full weight of what she has done finally slams head on in to who she sees herself and her belief system, it could be a very difficult time for her, and she is going to need your support to get through it, as unfair as that may sound. Do you think you can do that? Is your love for her great enough to be able to do that?

 

I'm a big supporter of seeing a post A marriage as sort of a triage situation. The couple has to treat the most life threatening injuries first ( the A), but at some point, you will both have to work on the issues in your M if you want the reconciliation to be a success. Looking even further in to the future, knowing yourself and your personality as you do, can you see yourself being able to let the A go? That sounds like a lot to ask this early on, but it's so important. I'm not saying you need to forget the A and pretend it never happened, but if your ww is going to spend the rest of her life as some sort of whipping boy, where the A is trotted out every time you two are having problems ( e.g.- ten years down the road it's become a situation where " sure, I may have done something unkind to you, but YOU had an A") . That's no way for either of you to have to live your life. It's also no way to live your life if you will forever be angry at yourself that you stayed.

 

One more point, and then I will stopping bugging you. You have often mentioned how religious you wife is, and I wonder if that is part of why she's finding being childless such a difficult situation to cope with. I have personally known a couple of marriages where the wife is a devout catholic and believe they should have as many children as possible. In one, the wife was not able to have children, and she saw herself as not only a failure as a woman, but a failure in god's eyes and that she was somehow being punished. To me, that is nonsense, but to a true believer, it likely makes a lot of sense and goes well beyond biology.

 

How much do I love my wife? Enough to suffer this process when so many people are telling me to move on; even though, with no kids and a prenup, moving on would leave me unencumbered, richer, and single at a time in my life when finding a woman would be pretty easy for me. I love her with all my heart, so I don't think that "not loving her enough" will be the problem that pushes us apart.

 

Right now, I'm whipping her. I know I am. I'm trying to stop, but I'm having trouble; she hasn't been forthcoming with information, her feelings are blunted (and mine are NOT, they are front and center from when I wake up until I fall asleep) and I want her to feel what she did, and take responsibility for it. I also know it's probably not right, but I don't know how to get past it right now until the truth is laid bare and I feel like she appreciates what she really did.

 

That said, I so want to stop. And I have a big advantage, I'm very good at compartmentalizing; so I know that I can just tuck all this ugly into a box and put it on the back shelf of my mind. But I'm not ready to do that yet; and I also know it's not the right answer for long term healing; it'll be back at some point if I don't get enough of it out now to be able to compartmentalize it away in the future.

[wmacbride]

How much do I love my wife? Enough to suffer this process when so many people are telling me to move on; even though, with no kids and a prenup, moving on would leave me unencumbered, richer, and single at a time in my life when finding a woman would be pretty easy for me. I love her with all my heart, so I don't think that "not loving her enough" will be the problem that pushes us apart.

 

Right now, I'm whipping her. I know I am. I'm trying to stop, but I'm having trouble; she hasn't been forthcoming with information, her feelings are blunted (and mine are NOT, they are front and center from when I wake up until I fall asleep) and I want her to feel what she did, and take responsibility for it. I also know it's probably not right, but I don't know how to get past it right now until the truth is laid bare and I feel like she appreciates what she really did.

 

That said, I so want to stop. And I have a big advantage, I'm very good at compartmentalizing; so I know that I can just tuck all this ugly into a box and put it on the back shelf of my mind. But I'm not ready to do that yet; and I also know it's not the right answer for long term healing; it'll be back at some point if I don't get enough of it out now to be able to compartmentalize it away in the future.

 

If you love her like you say you do, then you know what the right answers are for you.

If you feel like you checked out without doing what you can to save your relationship, it may well always haunt you. If you give your best effort, and it still doesn't work out,at least you will know you did your best and you can walk away ready to move on.

[Overtaxed]

If you love her like you say you do, then you know what the right answers are for you.

If you feel like you checked out without doing what you can to save your relationship, it may well always haunt you. If you give your best effort, and it still doesn't work out,at least you will know you did your best and you can walk away ready to move on.

 

Exactly my thought. The years together before the A, IMHO, earn her a chance to try to fix this. D is always an option, and I'd do so with a clear mind because I was willing to do "whatever it takes" to save it.

[aliveagain]

You should at least find out if your prenuptial agreement still stands if one of the triggers is infidelity. What is her consequence for breaking your marriage contract? How do you hold her to her word if a prenuptial agreement and wedding vows can't? Your going to accept the word of someone you don't really know(this new stranger who has finally exposed herself) and has proven she will act on an opportunity if she thinks she can get away with it. Protect yourself from future hurts.