Low sex partner in affair. Fresh d-day

[DKT3]

There is no compromise in this situation. If she what's kids and you don't there is no middle road. It's best to cut bait and boat off in different directions

 

Honestly, if you really love this woman why attempt to put this back together. This won't go away, maybe it will be dormant for a bit but it will return. A marriage full of resentment and missed opportunities. Fostering children will never serve as a substitute for a able bodied woman.

[DKT3]

And another thing, when it comes to children really wise men would understand a woman saying she doesn't want them is most likely to change....So you saying she knew this before means nothing. At the time she may have honestly agreed. It's biology my friend. The drive can come from nowhere all of a sudden and completely consume her life.

[AnneP]

There is no compromise in this situation. If she what's kids and you don't there is no middle road. It's best to cut bait and boat off in different directions

 

Honestly, if you really love this woman why attempt to put this back together. This won't go away, maybe it will be dormant for a bit but it will return. A marriage full of resentment and missed opportunities. Fostering children will never serve as a substitute for a able bodied woman.

 

According to OT, she's not exactly "able bodied." Her chances of getting pregnant are slim to none due to reproductive issues. That's not his fault.

 

If she is this poor at managing money prior to kids, leaves her job to raise kids, and continues to spend, OT will have to work two jobs to support her and the kids he never wanted.

[Overtaxed]

There is no compromise in this situation. If she what's kids and you don't there is no middle road. It's best to cut bait and boat off in different directions

 

Honestly, if you really love this woman why attempt to put this back together. This won't go away, maybe it will be dormant for a bit but it will return. A marriage full of resentment and missed opportunities. Fostering children will never serve as a substitute for a able bodied woman.

 

The operative term above. "Able bodied woman". She's not able bodied. Neither am I. She will need IVF to have her own child, and she needs is real soon if she's to have even a minuscule chance of having her own child. It's one of the reasons I thought we were a good match "She can't have them, I don't think I want them". How wrong I was.

[Overtaxed]

And another thing, when it comes to children really wise men would understand a woman saying she doesn't want them is most likely to change....So you saying she knew this before means nothing. At the time she may have honestly agreed. It's biology my friend. The drive can come from nowhere all of a sudden and completely consume her life.

 

I said this before, but, really, people need to grow up here. You know what else is "biology"? The male "need" to sleep with every young/attractive woman who walks by. And yet, if we do that, claiming "biology" would be the worst possible excuse you could use. We're not just animals, we have rational minds and can make decisions for ourselves. I find it equally sexist; women are considered so "weak" that they can't control their hormonal urges to have a child while men are considered such animals that we can't control our urge to sleep with everything that walks by. Neither of those 2 things is universally true; or, if they are, nobody should be married. Yes, it plays a part (probably a big part) in what happened between my wife an I. But saying that every women who says "I'm OK not having kids" is lying or just doesn't understand themselves is pretty darn upsetting, both to men and women.

[AnneP]

I said this before, but, really, people need to grow up here. You know what else is "biology"? The male "need" to sleep with every young/attractive woman who walks by. And yet, if we do that, claiming "biology" would be the worst possible excuse you could use. We're not just animals, we have rational minds and can make decisions for ourselves. I find it equally sexist; women are considered so "weak" that they can't control their hormonal urges to have a child while men are considered such animals that we can't control our urge to sleep with everything that walks by. Neither of those 2 things is universally true; or, if they are, nobody should be married. Yes, it plays a part (probably a big part) in what happened between my wife an I. But saying that every women who says "I'm OK not having kids" is lying or just doesn't understand themselves is pretty darn upsetting, both to men and women.

 

I agree. I have quite a few married friends who are childless by choice. My sister being one of them and she's in her mid 30's and has never wavered on that choice.

[DKT3]

I agree. I have quite a few married friends who are childless by choice. My sister being one of them and she's in her mid 30's and has never wavered on that choice.

 

Key phrase being by choice.

 

It's not her choice at this point to be childless.

 

Overtaxed my point is you two have different goals.

 

Lastly there is a difference between unable and difficult to, when it comes to conception and carrying a baby to term. From what you say it's difficult not impossible.

[Popsicle]

She probably thinks you don't love her with the prenup (even tho by your admission, you weren't wealthy when you met), and the no children thing, and continuing to be clueless about sex with her.

 

You don't have kids. Just divorce her and become a serial monogamist like most divorced men over 40 do (because they're jaded). That seems like a happier life to them than this misery. You just can't see it yet.

[Popsicle]

The fact that she wants kids yet at her age is still staying with you tells me that it's not really about her wanting the kids, but about your selfishness. Not sure how you're going to get that to go away.

[Overtaxed]

The fact that she wants kids yet at her age is still staying with you tells me that it's not really about her wanting the kids, but about your selfishness. Not sure how you're going to get that to go away.

 

Could you provide a little detail/examples please? If it's having a pre-nup, I'm going to have to disagree; I did that because of situations exactly like this that are out of my control, not my fault, but, in the court system today, would result in me losing half of what I'd worked for over the past 10 years. That's not selfish in my eyes, it's fair; this isn't my mistake and I shouldn't have to pay for her to go off and live a life with the AP.

 

You don't have kids. Just divorce her and become a serial monogamist like most divorced men over 40 do (because they're jaded). That seems like a happier life to them than this misery. You just can't see it yet.

 

Our life was very happy, even recently, until the A came into the picture. Yes, we had issues. No, they weren't terrible issues. The big one was "kids". And we'd been discussing that for over a decade; nothing had changed on either side. But if you think our/my lives were misery for years, you're wrong. It's why I'm considering a R; it wasn't like we had horrible years together; we had an incredible marriage that flew off the rails. If I can get that back, I will.

[Popsicle]

Of course your life was soooo happy before the affair and you're perfect . You're oblivious and incorrigible and this is why your wife cheated on you. She just hasn't figured out a way out yet.

[Overtaxed]

Of course your life was soooo happy before the affair and you're perfect . You're oblivious and incorrigible and this is why your wife cheated on you. She just hasn't figured out a way out yet.

 

I had to think a bit about how to respond to this because, in some ways, I think you may just be trolling. But, I'll assume you're not, so here goes..

 

If you read this thread, you will see that I do not think myself perfect. I have issues, and we had issues in our marriage before the A. However, yes, it was what most would consider a "happy" marriage, including me and my wife. I asked her (as was suggested by another person in this thread) to rate our marriage from a 1-10 before and during the affair. She rated it highly before and very low during. So, no, in my eyes, this wasn't just a failure in my marriage, it was a failure in her for the most part, and a failure in me to communicate.

 

As to the "this is why your wife cheated on you". That's just mud slinging, I don't think she even knows why she cheated on me; and you most certainly do not.

 

Finally, "she just hasn't figured a way out yet"; how much easier could I make it for her? We own 2 houses, when she came home on d-day, I told her I'd leave to the other house post-haste and let her stay here. I'd set aside much of the pre-nup to set her up financially better than the document requires. And I'd keep her secret; file for D, and not tell anyone in her/my family the real reason we were breaking up. I mean, how much easier an exit can you have than that?! If she wanted "a way out", that's exactly what I intended to give her; no crying, no begging, no threats (unless she said she wanted to R and carried on with the A) and no exposure beyond that of getting a divorce. What else can you do to make sure someone sees an "easy out" and takes that option if it's what they want?

[Overtaxed]

Key phrase being by choice.

 

It's not her choice at this point to be childless.

 

Overtaxed my point is you two have different goals.

 

Lastly there is a difference between unable and difficult to, when it comes to conception and carrying a baby to term. From what you say it's difficult not impossible.

 

Well.. If you follow that to the logical conclusion, having children isn't really "impossible" for almost anyone. Enough money, time, effort, almost anyone can have a child. Might not be their biological child, or maybe they can't carry it themselves, but, it's almost always possible to do something. But, the reality is, taking drastic measures requires a tremendous amount of resources (money) and time. Can't remember the celeb (Demi Moore?) but I do recall a magazine cover of a woman pregnant at ~50. Does that mean it's "possible" for everyone to get pregnant that late? I guess so, if they have 100's of thousands of dollars to spend and a lifestyle that allows them to spend 9 months going to the Dr's office a few times a week, coupled with the mental toughness to realize that there's a good chance of a miscarriage/complications in the baby.

 

There's a difference between "possible" and "practical". That's what I'm trying to say. Sure, it's possible my W could walk out this morning and find another guy ready to have kids right now with the money to pay for half a dozen rounds of IVF. But is it likely? Is it practical? No and no. It's far more likely she leaves and finds herself without children anyway because of the extraordinary measures she'd need (and I'd need, if we did it together) to go through to have them. This is why, early in our relationship when she disclosed her reproductive issues, I thought to myself that we were a good match; she couldn't have them and I didn't want to have them.

[DKT3]

Well.. If you follow that to the logical conclusion, having children isn't really "impossible" for almost anyone. Enough money, time, effort, almost anyone can have a child. Might not be their biological child, or maybe they can't carry it themselves, but, it's almost always possible to do something. But, the reality is, taking drastic measures requires a tremendous amount of resources (money) and time. Can't remember the celeb (Demi Moore?) but I do recall a magazine cover of a woman pregnant at ~50. Does that mean it's "possible" for everyone to get pregnant that late? I guess so, if they have 100's of thousands of dollars to spend and a lifestyle that allows them to spend 9 months going to the Dr's office a few times a week, coupled with the mental toughness to realize that there's a good chance of a miscarriage/complications in the baby.

 

There's a difference between "possible" and "practical". That's what I'm trying to say. Sure, it's possible my W could walk out this morning and find another guy ready to have kids right now with the money to pay for half a dozen rounds of IVF. But is it likely? Is it practical? No and no. It's far more likely she leaves and finds herself without children anyway because of the extraordinary measures she'd need (and I'd need, if we did it together) to go through to have them. This is why, early in our relationship when she disclosed her reproductive issues, I thought to myself that we were a good match; she couldn't have them and I didn't want to have them.

 

Listen this line of reasoning may work for you in other areas or walks of your life, but coming from one crappy husband (reformed on my part) to another I see right through you and all your over analytical bs.

 

Reduced to it's simplest form you're a pretty selfish guy who imposes his will on his wife. The fact that you would call a difference in opinion on having kids or not minor, shows you actually have very little empathy for your wife or concerns for her feelings.

 

One is never directly responsible for a spouses decision to engage in an affair, but one is responsible for the state of their marriage. I believe you are extremely delusional, so wrapped up in your idea of what marriage and happiness means to you, that you've convinced yourself since your happy she is happy. Clearly not the case.

 

I'm not saying you should give in and have kids if it's something you don't want, what I'm saying is knowing it's something your wife wants then it leaves you with two paths if you genuinely love the woman, get on board with her dreams of set her free. It's completely unfair to hammer her into submission on this topic. Just as unfair as her affair was.

Edited February 11, 2017 by DKT3

[elaine567]

This is why, early in our relationship when she disclosed her reproductive issues, I thought to myself that we were a good match; she couldn't have them and I didn't want to have them.

 

And that was the huge mistake that you made.

Potentially not being able to have kids does not equal "I don't want kids".

Infertility clinics are full of people desperate to have children.

 

Your wife is also desperate to have kids, you have known that for years but YOU have rug swept, you have bribed, you have minimised, you have manipulated, you have ignored, you have belittled, all with the goal of providing the semblance of this "perfect" marriage, but it may have been perfect for YOU, but underneath your wife was raging and unhappy as her dreams were being stifled and she was up against the immovable object that is you.

You, with your self confessed game playing and manipulation, have I guess made her dependent on you.

She has no defence against your "logic", so she does something that you cannot control... but now you are back in the driving seat again, she is shut down and "compliant", but that doesn't equate to happiness.

As Popsicle says and I agree, she just hasn't figured a good way out yet.

 

Yes, we had issues. No, they weren't terrible issues.

Not to you maybe, but of course the issues were huge, you were on the point of divorce before the A blew up. Your wife was and still is in therapy.

 

Until you address the terrible state of your marriage, AND bluntly do something about giving your wife the chance to have the kids she wants, then it is doomed to fail.

If your desire to live a childless life trumps all, then please just let her go ASAP.

[Overtaxed]

Listen this line of reasoning may work for you in other areas or walks of your life, but coming from one crappy husband (reformed on my part) to another I see right through you and all your over analytical bs.

 

Reduced to it's simplest form you're a pretty selfish guy who imposes his will on his wife. The fact that you would call a difference in opinion on having kids or not minor, shows you actually have very little empathy for your wife or concerns for her feelings.

 

One is never directly responsible for a spouses decision to engage in an affair, but one is responsible for the state of their marriage. I believe you are extremely delusional, so wrapped up in your idea of what marriage and happiness means to you, that you've convinced yourself since your happy she is happy. Clearly not the case.

 

I'm not saying you should give in and have kids if it's something you don't want, what I'm saying is knowing it's something your wife wants then it leaves you with two paths if you genuinely love the woman, get on board with her dreams of set her free. It's completely unfair to hammer her into submission on this topic. Just as unfair as her affair was.

 

But it's OK for her to hammer me into submission on this topic? I just don't get these comments, this was disclosed YEARS before we got married. It's not like I changed my mind; I told her, even after I proposed "If you want kids, we should not get married". She understood and agreed to move forward.

 

And, D was always (and is) available to her. When we were talking about it as the A was raging, I made it clear to her that I'd give her more than the prenup stipulated to make sure she'd be able to go her own way and be financially taken care of.

 

I ask again. How much easier could I make this for her to walk out? I'm not using guilt to get her to stay, if anything, my words are intended to push her away if that's what she really wants. I'm trying to make this as easy a decision for her as possible, no threats, no crying. You want to leave to try for children with someone else, I understand. I've told her that for a long time. Somehow it's my fault she's unable to make a decision here? Or my fault that I'm somehow "beating her into submission" on this topic when she has a completely reasonable escape hatch.

 

I'm sorry, I don't see it. And "just as unfair as her affair was"? Come on. Yeah, if I lied to her for years and then told her 12 months ago that I didn't really want kids, maybe. But, this was fully disclosed; there was no lying/backstabbing going on here. She was always "in the know" and had the right to make her own decision around this topic.

[Overtaxed]

And that was the huge mistake that you made.

Potentially not being able to have kids does not equal "I don't want kids".

Infertility clinics are full of people desperate to have children.

 

Your wife is also desperate to have kids, you have known that for years but YOU have rug swept, you have bribed, you have minimised, you have manipulated, you have ignored, you have belittled, all with the goal of providing the semblance of this "perfect" marriage, but it may have been perfect for YOU, but underneath your wife was raging and unhappy as her dreams were being stifled and she was up against the immovable object that is you.

You, with your self confessed game playing and manipulation, have I guess made her dependent on you.

She has no defence against your "logic", so she does something that you cannot control... but now you are back in the driving seat again, she is shut down and "compliant", but that doesn't equate to happiness.

As Popsicle says and I agree, she just hasn't figured a good way out yet.

 

Not to you maybe, but of course the issues were huge, you were on the point of divorce before the A blew up. Your wife was and still is in therapy.

 

Until you address the terrible state of your marriage, AND bluntly do something about giving your wife the chance to have the kids she wants, then it is doomed to fail.

If your desire to live a childless life trumps all, then please just let her go ASAP.

 

Elaine, let me ask you, when you say "good way out", what are you thinking? Because, I honestly don't know how much better a way out she could possibly have then what I've put on the table as this came to light.

 

I just can't get on board with the comments that "I" stifled her dreams because I'm not willing to pay for/do IVF. Does my wife really have no personal agency in your mind? If that's what she wanted, she absolutely could have had it; she just had to tell me and we'd go our own ways. No need to have an A and rip our lives apart, just tell me.

 

How have I rug swept/minimized, etc? Look, I never said I was Mr. Perfect; I'm not, not by a long shot! But we talked for days about having kids. And that's days of conversation, not "over a few days". I was always willing to discuss it with her. I never minimized (or overstated, more accurately) my desire to have children.

[BuddyX]

I think your running into a "paralysis by analysis" mode. Read all your novel responses. While they are informative they are quite defensive, and are getting repetitive. Lot of talking for someone who hast to be pro active. Just simply the concept. I.e. Your wife does not find you attractive and chose another man.

 

My ExW did the same thing. If she had any "balls" she would come to me and tell me our marriage needs work. The answer was never in another man's pants.

Edited February 11, 2017 by BuddyX
Grammar

[Popsicle]

Listen this line of reasoning may work for you in other areas or walks of your life, but coming from one crappy husband (reformed on my part) to another I see right through you and all your over analytical bs.

 

Reduced to it's simplest form you're a pretty selfish guy who imposes his will on his wife. The fact that you would call a difference in opinion on having kids or not minor, shows you actually have very little empathy for your wife or concerns for her feelings.

 

One is never directly responsible for a spouses decision to engage in an affair, but one is responsible for the state of their marriage. I believe you are extremely delusional, so wrapped up in your idea of what marriage and happiness means to you, that you've convinced yourself since your happy she is happy. Clearly not the case.

 

I'm not saying you should give in and have kids if it's something you don't want, what I'm saying is knowing it's something your wife wants then it leaves you with two paths if you genuinely love the woman, get on board with her dreams of set her free. It's completely unfair to hammer her into submission on this topic. Just as unfair as her affair was.

 

Thank you. I see right through his analytical bs too. He's just selfish on several fronts. His wife is just not crystal clear on it yet but she is feeling it.

[S2B]

But it's OK for her to hammer me into submission on this topic? I just don't get these comments, this was disclosed YEARS before we got married. It's not like I changed my mind; I told her, even after I proposed "If you want kids, we should not get married". She understood and agreed to move forward.

 

And, D was always (and is) available to her. When we were talking about it as the A was raging, I made it clear to her that I'd give her more than the prenup stipulated to make sure she'd be able to go her own way and be financially taken care of.

 

I ask again. How much easier could I make this for her to walk out? I'm not using guilt to get her to stay, if anything, my words are intended to push her away if that's what she really wants. I'm trying to make this as easy a decision for her as possible, no threats, no crying. You want to leave to try for children with someone else, I understand. I've told her that for a long time. Somehow it's my fault she's unable to make a decision here? Or my fault that I'm somehow "beating her into submission" on this topic when she has a completely reasonable escape hatch.

 

I'm sorry, I don't see it. And "just as unfair as her affair was"? Come on. Yeah, if I lied to her for years and then told her 12 months ago that I didn't really want kids, maybe. But, this was fully disclosed; there was no lying/backstabbing going on here. She was always "in the know" and had the right to make her own decision around this topic.

 

The way I see it - you keep putting it onto her - so she is solely to blame.

 

She's not deciding! Her decision was to cheat. She wanted the affair and the M.

 

You want a divorce? Be a strong person and take charge = FILE the papers!

 

Quit leaving everything to her.

[Overtaxed]

Thank you. I see right through his analytical bs too. He's just selfish on several fronts. His wife is just not crystal clear on it yet but she is feeling it.

 

Care to elaborate on this? Analytical BS, great, I suppose I should just "feel my way through" this nightmare instead of trying to figure out what happened/what's wrong and trying to fix it?

[Overtaxed]

The way I see it - you keep putting it onto her - so she is solely to blame.

 

She's not deciding! Her decision was to cheat. She wanted the affair and the M.

 

You want a divorce? Be a strong person and take charge = FILE the papers!

 

Quit leaving everything to her.

 

If it's not clear in this thread, I don't want a D. I also don't want to hold my wife in a marriage where she can't be happy. It's not my decision to make; those encouraging me to "set her free" are really placing a stunning lack of agency on my wife. If she wants to be "free", I don't want to stand in her way. But D her because she's unable to make the decision for herself? Aren't we all supposed to be big boys/girls here? How is that my decision to make; if I can't get over the A, yeah, I'll divorce her. But divorce her because she want's to divorce me? Sorry, that's a bridge too far, especially when she's been telling me the exact opposite. Reading minds is not my strong suit (obviously).

[Try]

I just can't get on board with the comments that "I" stifled her dreams because I'm not willing to pay for/do IVF. Does my wife really have no personal agency in your mind? If that's what she wanted, she absolutely could have had it; she just had to tell me and we'd go our own ways. No need to have an A and rip our lives apart, just tell me.

There is group of people on this site that often blame the man for a woman cheating on them. They never blame the wife for the husband cheating. Ignore them. Stop feeding their posts. If she wanted to change the deal and have kids, she was free to divorce and find someone that wanted kids. That someone was never you, and you are under no obligation to be someone that you are not.

 

You did not deserve to be cheated on. That is all on her. The fact is that you and your wife are both 50%-50% responsible for the issues in your marriage, but the cheater is 100% responsible for their cheating. End of story. No need to say more on the matter. Be well.

[CaliforniaGirl]

Could you provide a little detail/examples please? If it's having a pre-nup, I'm going to have to disagree; I did that because of situations exactly like this that are out of my control, not my fault, but, in the court system today, would result in me losing half of what I'd worked for over the past 10 years. That's not selfish in my eyes, it's fair; this isn't my mistake and I shouldn't have to pay for her to go off and live a life with the AP.

 

 

 

Our life was very happy, even recently, until the A came into the picture. Yes, we had issues. No, they weren't terrible issues. The big one was "kids". And we'd been discussing that for over a decade; nothing had changed on either side. But if you think our/my lives were misery for years, you're wrong. It's why I'm considering a R; it wasn't like we had horrible years together; we had an incredible marriage that flew off the rails. If I can get that back, I will.

 

Your life was happy for you, because you were in control, or thought you were.

 

But two things are pretty apparent now: you weren't in control and aren't, and she wasn't happy and isn't.

 

When you let her go you will each be free to have an actually happy life at last.

[knitwit]

Overtaxed, you are in a terrible situation. I don't blame you one bit for trying to work it out in a rational manner.

 

In an ideal world, your wife would have been upfront with you, consistently, through-out the years, about her apparently unrelenting desire to have kids. Instead, she went along with you. I believe that you have not known the truth about this issue in your marriage.

 

If she had been upfront, the two of you could have had open, honest discussions about it. You could have made informed, grown-up decisions, based in love and care for each other, even if that decision would have been to split up.

 

Instead, she held it in. And instead of facing issues, she made a terrible, highly destructive decision to cheat as a form of coping. Her decision to cheat is 100% on her.

 

Now, you are left reeling, damaged, trying to figure it all out. You don't even know if you can stay married to her, based on her dishonesty, even though you would prefer to keep the marriage.

 

The bomb was thrown and it exploded, it blew up your marriage. Now the choice is Rebuild or Walk Away.

 

When I posted to you earlier, and I think when others are posting to you, it is to tell you that if you decide to Rebuild, the Child issue must be resolved between the two of you.

 

The desire to have children, for many people, does not just go away. It is very clear to those of us who have walked the path of infertility that you do not get the depth and importance of this issue in your marriage.

 

That's not a personal dig against you. As humans, we are wired in a way that we have to really focus to build empathy for people in situations that we don't experience. It doesn't come naturally. You do not have the desire to have kids, so you can't know the truth about it unless your wife tells you, and she has not told you.

 

You have described a woman who tricked you into going to a fertility clinic. She has talked to you about adoption and foster care. This tells me that she really, deeply wants kids. She knows that you don't want kids, she loves you and wants you; for whatever reason, maybe because she is afraid of losing you, or maybe because she doesn't feel safe or heard, she is not telling you the complete truth. She isn't showing you her true heart on this. She isn't trying to shake you so that you truly GET her on this issue.

 

Her true heart deeply wants children. You "know" this, but it is a factual thing for you; it is not an experienced, an extremely painful thing, like it is for her. She is not showing you her true hurt over this.

 

And, just to be clear: this does not explain or excuse her cheating. It is, however, something that needs to be addressed if your marriage is going to heal.

 

Earlier, you wrote to me that your wife has brought up adoption and foster care, and that you haven't "written it off." But you don't have to write it off. You have never written it in. Couples who are infertile grieve deeply, together. You are not an "All In" partner regarding children; how could you be? You don't want children. She is going through something that she can't and/or won't share with you.

 

Again, that is not a dig on you. Personally, almost all of my old and close friends are childless by choice. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. They tend to happy Double-Income-No-Kids (DINK) lives. They are well off and very happy. I was close to being a DINK and I would have been OK with it, as long as I felt that I'd given being a mom the best chance I could.

 

To thine own self be true.

 

In 2017, in the US, most people who want to be parents *can* be parents. For those with money, ART and IVF improves constantly. There are multiple avenues for adoption. For those without money (but enough to support themselves), there is foster-to-adopt or straight adoption out of the foster care system.

 

None of these are easy or risk-free. But they are available. And most people who want to be parents are willing to at least try. Maybe even desperate to at least try.

 

It is not fair that you have to consider all this. You are grievously injured by her extremely poor and destructive choice to cheat. But if you are truly going to reconcile, and build a new strong, healthy marriage, the child issue is going to be an important, major hurdle you'll need to clear. It should be the 2nd priority, after affair-proofing your marriage, IMO.