Low sex partner in affair. Fresh d-day

[wmacbride]

Thank you for the posts everyone. I'm not going to respond individually, but I do appreciate all the viewpoints. Those who think I'm in the wrong, please feel free to keep posting, but, keep the personal attacks to a minimum if at all possible. I love my wife. I have a pre-nup, yes, because I was always afraid of something like this happening. Apparently that fear was justified, because here I sit, talking about my wife's affair. It had nothing to do with my love for her and everything to do with "reality" (which those who are in attack mode might call my "cold rational side"), this stuff happens. If my wife was in a position right now where she could walk out the door with 1/2 of everything, I'm not sure she'd be willing to R. But is that a bad thing? Why on earth has it become "normal" for a straying spouse (typically a woman, but not always) to feel justified taking the faithful spouse for 1/2 of everything just "because". I think my pre-nup is fair, and I've offered to set it aside for the most part if my W wants a divorce. Does this make me cold/uncaring? I suppose you could see it that way. In my eyes, it makes me someone who plans for the worst but hopes for the best.

 

I must say, I am a bit shocked at how this, in many posters eyes, is my fault. I'm not sure if this is something new in society, or if there's some real justification for this; but, it seems from reading many other stories on here that "woman cheats; man's fault" "man cheat; man's fault" is pretty much the general script. Well, I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me. Everyone has options before they cheat. If you want a divorce, ask for one! That goes for men and women! Yes, most of my friends cheat on their wives. And let me tell you, they all have "justification" in their mind. Is that right? Of course not, and, honestly, if you sat them down, they'd tell you it's not their wive's fault, it's their sex addiction/lack of empathy that caused them to cheat. That's the male "cheat script"; or at least the script that I see played out in my circle of friends.

 

The thing I do agree with; children are a big issue in our marriage. There's no doubt about that. But, I will reiterate, even if my W was with a perfectly healthy man (I have a very low sperm count, don't know if I mentioned that or not), the chances of her getting pregnant are almost 0. Coupled with my low sperm count, the chances are, pretty much 0. She needs IVF to have a shot at it, and, even then, that is a real long shot. And, the major issue, of course, which has been rightly pointed out; I'm not keen on the idea and haven't been for the 15 years we've been together. But, even if I was, there's almost no chance of it happening. So, if I was keen on the idea (and didn't have my own issues) and she not, would it be OK for me to get some on the side to try to have my own kid? I have a feeling that those blasting me on here would be blasting me just as hard if that were the situation.

 

I never lied to her or future faked her about kids. The AP, however, DID, that's exactly what he did and she fell for it hard. Telling her what a good mother she'd be. How he'd love to have kids with her. Meanwhile, he has a vasectomy, and his wife would destroy him in court; he actually told her "Would you be OK living with nothing". The rational part of my mind just spins on this one. He'd need to get a V reversal (expensive and often not successful), followed by IVF. We're probably talking 50-100K by the time you get your first shot at this, which is 50-100K that neither of them would have. But this is somehow better? I'm realistic, I know that enough rounds of IVF to have a good shot at this would bankrupt us; and somehow, to a lot of posters here, my logic around this issue makes me "at fault" for what happened here? It's a good thing I have a thick skin and a positive self image; I can't imagine how others husbands feel in this situation!

 

@Try: The other man was talking about having children with her. But he never intended to carry through on that promise. That's the thing that blows my mind, it's almost like she was dying to be lied to. He sterile. He'd never have the $$ to get her pregnant, even if she left for him tomorrow. It's great to say "I'd love to have kids with you" when it's a completely unrealistic situation; another thing entirely for them to be sitting in a room deciding if Ramen noodles can be breakfast/lunch/dinner for the next 15 years to pay for this. There's NO WAY he ever would have carried through on this. In fact, when confronted, he said "Bye" and ran back to his wife/kids immediately. But, reading the other posts here, and reading the TXT messages between him and my W, it's almost like this was the better option than laying out the reality of the situation.

 

 

 

This one I want to reply to directly, because the answer is "NO" (in caps on purpose). I never said that, and I regret it every day that passes. I never showed her empathy around this because, in my mind, we'd already agreed. And that was dead wrong; even though we agreed that it wasn't in the cards for us, I should have realized how much of a compromise this was to her and tried to make her understand that I felt her pain about this. I never did that, I thought it was a "closed issue" and there was no reason to revisit it. And that was a terrible mistake, one that I hope I can rectify if we are able to R.

 

Then why not sit her down and have a very frank talk about all your feelings, or, if writing is easier for you, write it out. Take you time and pour all of it out, the good, the bad and the ugly. Let her know how deeply this has wounded you and why. Tell her what you need from her right now and int he future, and let her know you empathize with the pain she's gone through not being able to have kids. That's not to say you've changed your mind, but that you can understand and empathize with her.

 

no offense intended, and I could be wrong, but are you telling your wife the things you are saying on here? Does she know how much she's hurt you?

[wmacbride]

Good Lord, the replies to the OM here are unbelievable!

 

OP's W steps out on him, and it's his fault??? Smmfh. Unbelievable!!!!

 

I will say it again, and I am a bs myself.

 

I agree it is incredibly unfair that, at a time when a bs is hurting the most, they have to look at the marriage as a whole and see where the issue lie. This isn't blaming the bs for the A, but seeing if there is enough left to try and rebuild.

[WilyWill]

Good Lord, the replies to the OM here are unbelievable!

 

OP's W steps out on him, and it's his fault??? Smmfh. Unbelievable!!!!

 

Some girls are always going to stand with girls. When a woman is wronged, they rise to her defense, as they should. Rise up, girl! Take a stand and proudly assert your independence and equality!

 

But when a woman wrongs someone else, it's because she's a precious snowflake--an innocent child--who can't be held accountable for her own behavior. Her feelings were hurt, after all.

 

As long as there are a majority of feminists who want to have it both ways, feminism will never be taken seriously by any rational person.

 

Yes, it's true that Overtaxed and his wife, as couple, should work together to see if there is enough left to salvage their marriage. The first step is an admission of both parties' wrongdoing, not a desperate search to get her off the hook. If she's an adult in an adult relationship, she should be expected to behave as one. Her actions were far worse than anything Overtaxed did. And this is true even if their genders were reversed.

[BluesPower]

I realize that some of this thread has degenerated into a blame OT because he new she wanted kids and would not give them to her.

 

I understand that this is an issue in the marriage but who in the hell cares?

 

The WW in this thread was having a physical affair for who really knows how long, in OT wonderful house that bought for her with a scum bag. Unprotected sex with any man would be bad enough but a guy like this? Come on guys.

 

She is still lying to OT, he thinks he knows the truth be based on her past behavior we all know that he does not know everything and she is not telling him.

 

This WW is a grown woman that chose to have an affair and sleep with a man in their home. Frankly, I actually refuse to believe that the did not sleep in the master bed, but who really knows because she has basically been lying to him about everything.

 

The child issue that goes both ways and I believe that OT was straight forward and honest with her about his feelings. She chose to marry him and she chose to live the high life and she chose to have an affair.

 

None of this is OT's fault.

 

I would like to here where OT is with the whole situation and what he is thinking about.

[Overtaxed]

I realize that some of this thread has degenerated into a blame OT because he new she wanted kids and would not give them to her.

 

I understand that this is an issue in the marriage but who in the hell cares?

 

The WW in this thread was having a physical affair for who really knows how long, in OT wonderful house that bought for her with a scum bag. Unprotected sex with any man would be bad enough but a guy like this? Come on guys.

 

She is still lying to OT, he thinks he knows the truth be based on her past behavior we all know that he does not know everything and she is not telling him.

 

This WW is a grown woman that chose to have an affair and sleep with a man in their home. Frankly, I actually refuse to believe that the did not sleep in the master bed, but who really knows because she has basically been lying to him about everything.

 

The child issue that goes both ways and I believe that OT was straight forward and honest with her about his feelings. She chose to marry him and she chose to live the high life and she chose to have an affair.

 

None of this is OT's fault.

 

I would like to here where OT is with the whole situation and what he is thinking about.

 

Happy to oblige. And thank you everyone today for helping me get some perspective; after last night's posts, I was about ready to hang it up on this board. I absolutely appreciate disagreement and conversation around what happened here, it's incredibly helpful to me. But the chorus of "it's your fault" last night was not in anyway productive, and, frankly, I think it was incredibly unfair. Yes, there were issues in our marriage. Yes, children were/are a big one (perhaps "the one"). But, I came here to talk to people who would give me some perspective, suggestions and support, not to hear that I was a monster for "what I did" to my wife. She was always right there for the decisions, she always had the right to say "no" or walk away. And I always tried to be reasonable to her, even as we discussed divorce, to make sure that if it's what she wanted, she would be able to move on easily and find a man who would give her what she was looking for. Did I approach it the way? Oh h*** no I did not. When she wanted me to fight, I wanted to use Excel to divvy up money and assets. It was dead wrong and exactly the opposite of what she was looking for. But none of this excuses her actions; she always had the choice to come home and say "I want a divorce" or just file the paperwork herself. I said it before, but the feminist bent on here the other night was just unreal; she's a big girl and can make her own decisions; including the decision to divorce me. I can't stop shaking my head at the posters who think it's my responsibility to divorce her (not because of what she did mind you, but because I should set her free).

 

OK, with that off my chest.

 

Is she still lying? Perhaps, but, I think I've gotten enough of the truth to know what happened here. Remember, I have the 1000's of TXT messages back and forth, all the e-mails/pictures/etc. And after I dumped them, I deleted them so she wouldn't have them as a reference to make sure that she didn't tell me too much or too little by referring back to them to see what I already know. Things are lining up; she's stood up to enough specific questions and provided enough unprompted detail (some of it shockingly painful, and things I did NOT know already from the electronic evidence) that I think I've gotten close enough to the truth to feel that I can make a decision as to "is this something I can forgive". And that's really what I wanted; enough to make a decision, not enough to be able to re-enact the last 4 months day by day. Did they sleep in the master bed? I doubt it (for the reasons I provided earlier). Did they have unprotected sex? I sincerely doubt that as well (I'm not going to provide the reasons for this, but, I'm pretty confident they didn't). What they did do, however, was plenty awful, honestly, finding out the sex was unprotected wouldn't be nearly as bad as the "in our house" thing was.

 

Where am I now? I'm feeling better, more centered and clearer headed about the whole thing. I'm still having terribly intrusive thoughts pop into my head a few times a day (mind movies) but I'm doing OK pushing they out. I'm eating well and exercising a lot to try to, if nothing else, look good even thought I don't feel so good. Therapy is going OK, but I'm not thrilled with my IC, he's not decisive enough for me. Going to keep going for the next few weeks though; the move to the new home is too soon to try to start over. We are, however, going to do a few sessions of MC before we move, I think that's critical and want to start that ASAP.

 

As you can tell from the above paragraph, we are planning to move together in about 3 weeks (500 miles from our current home). I can't wait to get out of this house and am counting the hours until the movers show up!

 

Things between us? Mostly good, some bad. We have had some big fights, we have had some really tender moments, we've had some amazing sex and I've had some absolutely awful thoughts about her.. Some days I can't bear to look at her, other days I can't stop thinking about her. I'd say, right now, we have more good times together than bad; I'm kind of out of energy to keep talking about the A, I got the information that I wanted, and now it's just down to "Do we both want to make this work". Her mother and I have been in constant contact, and she's very much in the "please work it out" camp (she knows the W had an EA, does not know about the PA). She's as shocked as I was and asked me if I thought she (W) needed to be committed because her behavior was so off the rails. Her mother and I haven't been that close in the past, but she's opened up to me a lot and has said some really nice things; including something that I've thought myself; "My daughter is trying to destroy her life, please don't let her". I know you guys all jump on me when I say this, and a lot of other people feel the same way, but to say this is out of character for my W is an understatement of massive proportion. I'm afraid her mother would drop dead if she knew the details I know; and, frankly, I don't see much good that can come of airing this dirty laundry to her family beyond what they already know. She's their daughter; why should they have to look at her differently for the rest of their lives; I'm not sure what purpose it would serve except for giving me that sweet revenge feeling (which would fade in a few days to be replaced by a lifetime of regret).

 

Sorry, off track a bit. Short version, things are better; I think for both of us. She did go back on her medication (not sure if I mentioned that), so I'm sure that's some of it. But I also feel like the walls are down. You slept with another man in our house while I was away for work. What do you feel like we can't talk about because "it's too embarrassing or difficult to talk about" now?? And she feels it, I know she does, we're having conversations we should have had years ago and they are flowing easily. Compared to the A, there's not a whole lot that could come close to being as painful to hear/talk about.

 

We are still on the track to R. I have not filed. I have cut off some access to the money, just as a protection in case she really is the person that some people have told me she is in this thread. She's cut communications with the AP (1 day after d-day; she did contact him the next day; which I knew, but she finally told me that recently which was a huge trust thing for me; she had no way of knowing that I knew and told me anyway). I'm hopeful but guarded. My heart is still in tatters, that's the best way to describe it. But I'm healing and am confident that "I'll get through this" no matter which way it goes. The thoughts of revenge (either a revenge affair or exposure) are fading, and my thoughts haven't been racing as much for the past week or so.

 

Wow, this turned into a long post! If you made it this far; thanks for sticking with it!

[Overtaxed]

Some girls are always going to stand with girls. When a woman is wronged, they rise to her defense, as they should. Rise up, girl! Take a stand and proudly assert your independence and equality!

 

But when a woman wrongs someone else, it's because she's a precious snowflake--an innocent child--who can't be held accountable for her own behavior. Her feelings were hurt, after all.

 

As long as there are a majority of feminists who want to have it both ways, feminism will never be taken seriously by any rational person.

 

Yes, it's true that Overtaxed and his wife, as couple, should work together to see if there is enough left to salvage their marriage. The first step is an admission of both parties' wrongdoing, not a desperate search to get her off the hook. If she's an adult in an adult relationship, she should be expected to behave as one. Her actions were far worse than anything Overtaxed did. And this is true even if their genders were reversed.

 

In the hopes of getting even more hackles up; I couldn't agree more. Man cheats, man's fault; woman cheats, man's fault! This is a shocking double standard that's fully on display in this board and in this thread. No, I wasn't Mr. Perfect. But, and this is what those who are so keen to point out fail to miss, neither was my WW!! Blame is shared for the problems in our relationship, that's without question. And I want to be more of what she needs as a husband; I'm committed to that and will continue to do that should we stay on the R path. But the "precious snowflake who can't ask for a D because OT is a controlling monster and won't give her enough money to go live a happy free life after she blows up the marriage AND had the nerve to stick by what he told her before they married about children; burn him at the stake!!" stuff? Come on ladies (or feminist men)! Honestly, it's nearly ridiculous! In this situation the WS (notice the "S", not a "W") SHOULD walk out the door with the clothes on their back and not a whole lot else. The thought of paying alimony to someone who did this to you? Yeah, that's reasonable.. If you're a completely deluded thinker.

[Overtaxed]

I will say it again, and I am a bs myself.

 

I agree it is incredibly unfair that, at a time when a bs is hurting the most, they have to look at the marriage as a whole and see where the issue lie. This isn't blaming the bs for the A, but seeing if there is enough left to try and rebuild.

 

And this kind of stuff is helpful, I've appreciated your posts in this thread. What was being said last night though, had crossed the line from helpful to see her point of view to just bashing me as a person for having the nerve to not give my W whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted it, without regard for the reality and consequences of those actions. That was over the line; and, as I said before, takes all agency away from women for these types of issues. Is it really impossible for a woman to know her own mind about things like children? Is it impossible for a woman to make a decision that their marriage isn't working and decide to move on without having an A? If so, the feminists (if that's what they were) posting have a much lower opinion of women than I do.

[introverted1]

OT, as a fellow logician (and female), I can only say that, ime, emotional thinkers never really "get" logical thinkers, and likely the reverse is also true. However, it seems that the burden is always on logical thinkers to make any changes needed, as seen here -- your wife brought up D in a passive-aggressive maneuver to get you to fight, but when you approached the situation logically (she wouldn't have brought up D unless she actually wanted it) you were in the wrong. It's fine for your wife to attempt to manipulate you into an emotional response but that's because you are lacking in EI.

 

Have you addressed this aspect of communication with your wife? Yes, perhaps you have to learn to wear your emotions on your sleeve more but she has a huge responsibility to learn to ask for what she needs and not play games like threaten divorce -- or have an A -- to jolt you. She's an adult and, as such, needs to own her actions and work on how she is not only going to remain a faithful partner, but a faithful, communicative, partner.

[Overtaxed]

OT, as a fellow logician (and female), I can only say that, ime, emotional thinkers never really "get" logical thinkers, and likely the reverse is also true. However, it seems that the burden is always on logical thinkers to make any changes needed, as seen here -- your wife brought up D in a passive-aggressive maneuver to get you to fight, but when you approached the situation logically (she wouldn't have brought up D unless she actually wanted it) you were in the wrong. It's fine for your wife to attempt to manipulate you into an emotional response but that's because you are lacking in EI.

 

Have you addressed this aspect of communication with your wife? Yes, perhaps you have to learn to wear your emotions on your sleeve more but she has a huge responsibility to learn to ask for what she needs and not play games like threaten divorce -- or have an A -- to jolt you. She's an adult and, as such, needs to own her actions and work on how she is not only going to remain a faithful partner, but a faithful, communicative, partner.

 

I have not addressed this with the W, but I will. This is interesting, and yes, even most of the reading I've done says "the logical one needs to learn to be more emotional" and very rarely the reverse. There was absolutely some "game playing" going on in our relationship that I was blind to; which, is funny, because I play games like this all day at work and am usually pretty good at reading someone's true intentions for saying something. I just never did that with the W, I never tried to dig deeper into her statements, I assumed she (unlike work) was being forthcoming with what she wanted/needed and I should take it a face value. That's not what she wanted, which is now quite obvious.

 

Edited to add:

 

I do wonder how much of this A was to "jolt me". She wasn't trying very hard to hide it. She didn't pick a suitable "replacement" for me, not at all. It was almost like an affair of convenience as much as it was about the AP himself. Now, I'm sure that wasn't what she was thinking in her mind at the time, but I have to look back and think "Was this all just a test to see if I cared"? IDK the answer to that question.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Overtaxed

[kgcolonel]

Happy to oblige. And thank you everyone today for helping me get some perspective; after last night's posts, I was about ready to hang it up on this board. I absolutely appreciate disagreement and conversation around what happened here, it's incredibly helpful to me. But the chorus of "it's your fault" last night was not in anyway productive, and, frankly, I think it was incredibly unfair. Yes, there were issues in our marriage. Yes, children were/are a big one (perhaps "the one"). But, I came here to talk to people who would give me some perspective, suggestions and support, not to hear that I was a monster for "what I did" to my wife. She was always right there for the decisions, she always had the right to say "no" or walk away. And I always tried to be reasonable to her, even as we discussed divorce, to make sure that if it's what she wanted, she would be able to move on easily and find a man who would give her what she was looking for. Did I approach it the way? Oh h*** no I did not. When she wanted me to fight, I wanted to use Excel to divvy up money and assets. It was dead wrong and exactly the opposite of what she was looking for. But none of this excuses her actions; she always had the choice to come home and say "I want a divorce" or just file the paperwork herself. I said it before, but the feminist bent on here the other night was just unreal; she's a big girl and can make her own decisions; including the decision to divorce me. I can't stop shaking my head at the posters who think it's my responsibility to divorce her (not because of what she did mind you, but because I should set her free).

 

OK, with that off my chest.

 

Is she still lying? Perhaps, but, I think I've gotten enough of the truth to know what happened here. Remember, I have the 1000's of TXT messages back and forth, all the e-mails/pictures/etc. And after I dumped them, I deleted them so she wouldn't have them as a reference to make sure that she didn't tell me too much or too little by referring back to them to see what I already know. Things are lining up; she's stood up to enough specific questions and provided enough unprompted detail (some of it shockingly painful, and things I did NOT know already from the electronic evidence) that I think I've gotten close enough to the truth to feel that I can make a decision as to "is this something I can forgive". And that's really what I wanted; enough to make a decision, not enough to be able to re-enact the last 4 months day by day. Did they sleep in the master bed? I doubt it (for the reasons I provided earlier). Did they have unprotected sex? I sincerely doubt that as well (I'm not going to provide the reasons for this, but, I'm pretty confident they didn't). What they did do, however, was plenty awful, honestly, finding out the sex was unprotected wouldn't be nearly as bad as the "in our house" thing was.

 

Where am I now? I'm feeling better, more centered and clearer headed about the whole thing. I'm still having terribly intrusive thoughts pop into my head a few times a day (mind movies) but I'm doing OK pushing they out. I'm eating well and exercising a lot to try to, if nothing else, look good even thought I don't feel so good. Therapy is going OK, but I'm not thrilled with my IC, he's not decisive enough for me. Going to keep going for the next few weeks though; the move to the new home is too soon to try to start over. We are, however, going to do a few sessions of MC before we move, I think that's critical and want to start that ASAP.

 

As you can tell from the above paragraph, we are planning to move together in about 3 weeks (500 miles from our current home). I can't wait to get out of this house and am counting the hours until the movers show up!

 

Things between us? Mostly good, some bad. We have had some big fights, we have had some really tender moments, we've had some amazing sex and I've had some absolutely awful thoughts about her.. Some days I can't bear to look at her, other days I can't stop thinking about her. I'd say, right now, we have more good times together than bad; I'm kind of out of energy to keep talking about the A, I got the information that I wanted, and now it's just down to "Do we both want to make this work". Her mother and I have been in constant contact, and she's very much in the "please work it out" camp (she knows the W had an EA, does not know about the PA). She's as shocked as I was and asked me if I thought she (W) needed to be committed because her behavior was so off the rails. Her mother and I haven't been that close in the past, but she's opened up to me a lot and has said some really nice things; including something that I've thought myself; "My daughter is trying to destroy her life, please don't let her". I know you guys all jump on me when I say this, and a lot of other people feel the same way, but to say this is out of character for my W is an understatement of massive proportion. I'm afraid her mother would drop dead if she knew the details I know; and, frankly, I don't see much good that can come of airing this dirty laundry to her family beyond what they already know. She's their daughter; why should they have to look at her differently for the rest of their lives; I'm not sure what purpose it would serve except for giving me that sweet revenge feeling (which would fade in a few days to be replaced by a lifetime of regret).

 

Sorry, off track a bit. Short version, things are better; I think for both of us. She did go back on her medication (not sure if I mentioned that), so I'm sure that's some of it. But I also feel like the walls are down. You slept with another man in our house while I was away for work. What do you feel like we can't talk about because "it's too embarrassing or difficult to talk about" now?? And she feels it, I know she does, we're having conversations we should have had years ago and they are flowing easily. Compared to the A, there's not a whole lot that could come close to being as painful to hear/talk about.

 

We are still on the track to R. I have not filed. I have cut off some access to the money, just as a protection in case she really is the person that some people have told me she is in this thread. She's cut communications with the AP (1 day after d-day; she did contact him the next day; which I knew, but she finally told me that recently which was a huge trust thing for me; she had no way of knowing that I knew and told me anyway). I'm hopeful but guarded. My heart is still in tatters, that's the best way to describe it. But I'm healing and am confident that "I'll get through this" no matter which way it goes. The thoughts of revenge (either a revenge affair or exposure) are fading, and my thoughts haven't been racing as much for the past week or so.

 

Wow, this turned into a long post! If you made it this far; thanks for sticking with it!

 

 

OT,,,the part in bold....are the meds you mentioned (I don't remember mention of this prior as you said) related to Bi-polar? If so, acting out like this isn't unusual for a Bi-polar person off their meds....may be an actualy explanation of the A....not an excuse but validates what you're saying about it being out of character.

[wmacbride]

I realize that some of this thread has degenerated into a blame OT because he new she wanted kids and would not give them to her.

 

I understand that this is an issue in the marriage but who in the hell cares?

 

The WW in this thread was having a physical affair for who really knows how long, in OT wonderful house that bought for her with a scum bag. Unprotected sex with any man would be bad enough but a guy like this? Come on guys.

 

She is still lying to OT, he thinks he knows the truth be based on her past behavior we all know that he does not know everything and she is not telling him.

 

This WW is a grown woman that chose to have an affair and sleep with a man in their home. Frankly, I actually refuse to believe that the did not sleep in the master bed, but who really knows because she has basically been lying to him about everything.

 

The child issue that goes both ways and I believe that OT was straight forward and honest with her about his feelings. She chose to marry him and she chose to live the high life and she chose to have an affair.

 

None of this is OT's fault.

 

I would like to here where OT is with the whole situation and what he is thinking about.

 

The op is at a crossroads. he has indicated he wishes to reconcile. Part of that process, as incredibly unfair as it is, he is going to have to take all of the factors that play into the state of his marriage and see if it can be salvaged. That means, and again it's incredibly unfair, hat he will have to look at his role.

It's not about blaming him, rarher, it's about him being honest with hismelf and his ww about what sort of chnaces he feels the marriage has to survive, and what they both need to do to make that happen.

 

Of course, the A needs to be addressed first and foremost, and that is 100 percent of her. He didn't force her to seek affection and affirmation outside the marriage. She had choices, and that was one she made.

 

The thing is tat the "volley and thunder" of the A will eventually die down, and both the op and his ww will need to look at the situation. They will need to see where the negatives int he M lie, and decide what they want to do to make things better, and also if those steps are ones they are individually willing to take.

 

The having children issue keeps being brought up because it could likely be a lawbreaker. the op is not keen to have kids, but his wife is. While either one is wrong or bad for their feelings on the subject, the question becomes can teir marriage not just survive but can it grow and be what both of them are looking for with that big of an elephant int he room. Only they have the answers to that question.

 

It's not about women sticking with women, it's about looking at the op's situation, his statements about what he wants to have happen, and then trying to make suggestions that can help him. I've been cheated on myself, and coped with it very much alone. I get how unfair it is, and also how painful. I will commend the op for his attitude of trying to look forward, and as bitter a pill as that may be to swallow, if a couple is to reconcile, at some point, its a medicine a bs has to take.

 

I'm also getting the sense that the op loves his wife in a very deep way, and he has found it really hard to find ways of letting her know that. I think she love shim too, but has done something that has shaken him to his core, and it goes beyond just sleeping with another man. She was one of the few people he let in, and she betrayed that trust.

 

At least he's smart enough to not be having a revenge A.

 

Op, there is another poster on here named betrayedh ( I think) who' also had a ww. His marriage didn't survive, but his posts have a lot of wisdom in them and they follow his story well. I would suggest you look them up and browse through them to see if there are any points that are helpful to you.

[wmacbride]

And this kind of stuff is helpful, I've appreciated your posts in this thread. What was being said last night though, had crossed the line from helpful to see her point of view to just bashing me as a person for having the nerve to not give my W whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted it, without regard for the reality and consequences of those actions. That was over the line; and, as I said before, takes all agency away from women for these types of issues. Is it really impossible for a woman to know her own mind about things like children? Is it impossible for a woman to make a decision that their marriage isn't working and decide to move on without having an A? If so, the feminists (if that's what they were) posting have a much lower opinion of women than I do.

 

To be fair, I have often read that women, and men too, can change their minds on the topic, especially as they get older and hormones kick in. In your wife's case, it sounds like there are a whole lot of other issues thrown into the mix. It's one thing to not have kids because you don't want to be a parent, it's another to be told you can never have them because of a physical issue. It can feel like you are a failure at the one thing humans are supposed to be able to do- reproduce. That makes no sense from a logical viewpoint, but form an emotional one, it does.

 

I understand you are a logical thinker, and this has served you well in the past, but try looking at the situation from an emotional standpoint. A big issue between you two is having children, and you indicate that she desperately wants them. Have you asked her why it's so important to her? She may not know the answer to that herself, but it could be the opening point of a conversation that could be really helpful to the two of you.

[wmacbride]

OT, as a fellow logician (and female), I can only say that, ime, emotional thinkers never really "get" logical thinkers, and likely the reverse is also true. However, it seems that the burden is always on logical thinkers to make any changes needed, as seen here -- your wife brought up D in a passive-aggressive maneuver to get you to fight, but when you approached the situation logically (she wouldn't have brought up D unless she actually wanted it) you were in the wrong. It's fine for your wife to attempt to manipulate you into an emotional response but that's because you are lacking in EI.

 

Have you addressed this aspect of communication with your wife? Yes, perhaps you have to learn to wear your emotions on your sleeve more but she has a huge responsibility to learn to ask for what she needs and not play games like threaten divorce -- or have an A -- to jolt you. She's an adult and, as such, needs to own her actions and work on how she is not only going to remain a faithful partner, but a faithful, communicative, partner.

 

This is an excellent point, and part of reconciliation. Reconciliation isn't just about healing form an A, it's about figuring out new ways of communicating and being with one another.

 

It's a long and rocky road, but if you can stick with it, it can really pay off.

[wmacbride]

I have not addressed this with the W, but I will. This is interesting, and yes, even most of the reading I've done says "the logical one needs to learn to be more emotional" and very rarely the reverse. There was absolutely some "game playing" going on in our relationship that I was blind to; which, is funny, because I play games like this all day at work and am usually pretty good at reading someone's true intentions for saying something. I just never did that with the W, I never tried to dig deeper into her statements, I assumed she (unlike work) was being forthcoming with what she wanted/needed and I should take it a face value. That's not what she wanted, which is now quite obvious.

 

Edited to add:

 

I do wonder how much of this A was to "jolt me". She wasn't trying very hard to hide it. She didn't pick a suitable "replacement" for me, not at all. It was almost like an affair of convenience as much as it was about the AP himself. Now, I'm sure that wasn't what she was thinking in her mind at the time, but I have to look back and think "Was this all just a test to see if I cared"? IDK the answer to that question.

 

Nd you won't, unless you ask her. don't pull any punches, as if there was ever a time you needed the truth, it's right now.

 

That is a question you have, and you deserve to have it answered.

 

I will give one word of caution. You might never get an answer that makes sense.Even after all these years I still don't really have one. I know the reasons, but I don't understand them.

 

[Overtaxed]

Nd you won't, unless you ask her. don't pull any punches, as if there was ever a time you needed the truth, it's right now.

 

That is a question you have, and you deserve to have it answered.

 

I will give one word of caution. You might never get an answer that makes sense.Even after all these years I still don't really have one. I know the reasons, but I don't understand them.

 

 

I know I may never get an answer that "makes sense". Examining it from the outside, trying to remove my emotions about what happened, it's really one of those "WTF were you thinking" moments. And I suppose I want her to tell me exactly that, what were you thinking. The best she's come up with is "I didn't think you cared" which, while an answer, is really not at all helpful in describing my (or her) behavior during the A. Of course I cared! I was doing things to try to repair our marriage before the A came to light. I was planning for our future together. I was trying to work through the issues (kids, primarily) with her on frequent and deep basis. I know I was doing this because I have the e-mails I sent to her while the A was ongoing. She was pretty much mute, but, to think I didn't care? There's no way she really could have thought that unless she was just totally in the fog (also possible).

 

I'm also getting the sense that the op loves his wife in a very deep way, and he has found it really hard to find ways of letting her know that. I think she love shim too, but has done something that has shaken him to his core, and it goes beyond just sleeping with another man. She was one of the few people he let in, and she betrayed that trust.

 

At least he's smart enough to not be having a revenge A.

 

Op, there is another poster on here named betrayedh ( I think) who' also had a ww. His marriage didn't survive, but his posts have a lot of wisdom in them and they follow his story well. I would suggest you look them up and browse through them to see if there are any points that are helpful to you.

 

The first part is certainly accurate. As others here have pointed out, the level and depth of my love for my wife might be "beyond healthy"; I held her so far above others that I simply let myself believe "she can't do this" and "she'd never hurt me". And yes, this has shaken me to the core; I've never had anyone closer to me; I dropped all the "games" and typical bravado that I'd deal with others using and it's all the more painful because now I feel like that was a mistake. If I'd kept those things about myself intact, I'm pretty sure that my wife would have been more attracted to me and not seen me in such a negative light. I do a lot of "down talking" of myself; I'm not one to boast to others and I like to make other people feel "better than" me; I have always done this and did it with my wife. I never wanted her to see me as perfect or without flaws; so I highlighted my flaws all the time and told her things about me that, looking back, I'm sure made me unattractive to her. I did this because I believed in total transparency; however, I'm thinking now that some things need to be held closer/perhaps never told to anyone (or not your wife anyway).

[Overtaxed]

OT,,,the part in bold....are the meds you mentioned (I don't remember mention of this prior as you said) related to Bi-polar? If so, acting out like this isn't unusual for a Bi-polar person off their meds....may be an actualy explanation of the A....not an excuse but validates what you're saying about it being out of character.

 

The med in question is Wellburtrin. She had been diagnosed (years before we met) as depressed. However, that said, to hear her describe how she felt when she was off the medication; it did sound like a description, in many ways, of bipolar to me. She said she felt "sharper", like she had an edge and was able to make decisions more quickly and decisively. She was more decisive and said others noticed her being funnier and more outgoing (I didn't notice this).

 

Those are not the "symptoms" of someone who's depressed withdrawing from a depression medication (IMHO), they sound like mania. So I do wonder if she might have some BP characteristics. I wouldn't associate a lot of the things she said/described with depression, and she never seemed "depressed" to me. But, to be honest, the "her" I saw off medication was involved in the A nearly the entire time. The medication "stop" and the A are coincident with one another pretty closely (IIRC, the A started within a month of stopping medication). So, I'm not sure I was really in a position to evaluate how/what she was really feeling, she was detaching from me at the the time and showing me a fake version of herself.

[elaine567]

Antidepressants frequently cause patients to become drowsy, dizzy, or less alert than they are normally.

So off the medication may mean she IS sharper and clearer, funnier and more outgoing..

Some people feel they are not themselves or have "brain fog" on antidepressants but of course that may also be due to their underlying depression.

If she feels better and more "alive" off the medication then perhaps the medication needs changed.

Also antidepressants will not "cure" mania if that is indeed her problem, an antidepressant may make mania much worse.

[Overtaxed]

Antidepressants frequently cause patients to become drowsy, dizzy, or less alert than they are normally.

So off the medication may mean she IS sharper and clearer, funnier and more outgoing..

Some people feel they are not themselves or have "brain fog" on antidepressants but of course that may also be due to their underlying depression.

If she feels better and more "alive" off the medication then perhaps the medication needs changed.

Also antidepressants will not "cure" mania if that is indeed her problem, an antidepressant may make mania much worse.

 

I would tend to agree, antidepressants aren't mood stabilizers. But, to hear my wife talk about the time off medication, it really does sound a lot like mania to me. I wonder if she started cycling because of the withdraw? I know that's not the typical reaction to coming off that drug, but, we're all different. And this isn't me making excuses for her, I used to be pretty bipolar, I didn't sleep with someone else during a manic episode if I was in a committed relationship (I did, however, call up women to break up with them because I wanted to sleep with someone that night; so again, not one to absolve myself here; I've done plenty of crappy things in my past!).

[elaine567]

I would tend to agree, antidepressants aren't mood stabilizers. But, to hear my wife talk about the time off medication, it really does sound a lot like mania to me. I wonder if she started cycling because of the withdraw? I know that's not the typical reaction to coming off that drug, but, we're all different. And this isn't me making excuses for her, I used to be pretty bipolar, I didn't sleep with someone else during a manic episode if I was in a committed relationship (I did, however, call up women to break up with them because I wanted to sleep with someone that night; so again, not one to absolve myself here; I've done plenty of crappy things in my past!).

I guess she was "high" on all that wonderful emotional stuff he was feeding her.

The excitement, the adrenaline rush, the ego boost, the bathing in compliments and "love" probably made her feel on top of the world and more alive than she had felt in years.

[Overtaxed]

I guess she was "high" on all that wonderful emotional stuff he was feeding her.

The excitement, the adrenaline rush, the ego boost, the bathing in compliments and "love" probably made her feel on top of the world and more alive than she had felt in years.

 

I suspect you're right. I'm also pretty sure that I now need to vomit thinking about that.

[S2B]

When she states "I didn't think you cared" - that's a cop out!

 

She was/is responsible for telling YOU if the relationship isn't fulfilling her needs!

 

Her answer is just an easy way of not taking responsibility for how she participates in the marriage! YOU are NOT to blame! How dare she try to blame you - I hope you expressed anger with her for that response!

[BTDT2012]

When she states "I didn't think you cared" - that's a cop out!

 

She was/is responsible for telling YOU if the relationship isn't fulfilling her needs!

 

Her answer is just an easy way of not taking responsibility for how she participates in the marriage! YOU are NOT to blame! How dare she try to blame you - I hope you expressed anger with her for that response!

 

^^^^^^

This, all day. My WH said the same dumb s h i t. I haven't read all the posts in your thread. Whatever the state of the marriage, she is 100% responsible for her decision to have sex with another man.

[Midwestmissy]

When my wh said he didn't think I cared, my only response was "then why did you go to such extremes to lie? If I didn't care, you should have told me and I wouldn't have cared." The only person not caring in this situation is the cheater.

[Mrs. John Adams]

When my wh said he didn't think I cared, my only response was "then why did you go to such extremes to lie? If I didn't care, you should have told me and I wouldn't have cared." The only person not caring in this situation is the cheater.

 

Simply put... I did not think my husband cared either.. why? Because I was looking for a reason to be mad at him.. I was looking for an excuse to allow me the "right" to cheat.

 

It did not make sense then... it doesn't make sense now... 33 years later... and my guess is... it will never make sense.

 

Just as the cheater needs to get inside the head of their betrayed to understand the pain they have caused.... I think a betrayed has to try to get inside of the head of their cheater to understand their mindset at the time of the offense.

 

Understanding cause and effect and communicating about it.. is probably the most successful road to healing.

 

I remember when my husband had his revenge affair .. he said to me... I was trying to get into your mind to do what you had done to see if it would help me understand how you could do this... but all I accomplished was to become as low as you had become and I still did not understand.

 

Sad isn't it? And I will tell you... I remain just as confused.

 

When I say I became a person I did not know or recognize...I tell the truth... I don't know where she came from and yet NOW I know what I am capable of...

 

I acknowledge that and hold myself accountable and remain transparent in our relationship... not only because I want to for his sake... but because it also makes me accountable to myself... I want to make sure that my boundaries never ever change again...

 

The one thing I have learned in this journey...betrayed and waywards who are In reconciliation both want the same thing... for it never to have happened in the first place.

[Overtaxed]

Simply put... I did not think my husband cared either.. why? Because I was looking for a reason to be mad at him.. I was looking for an excuse to allow me the "right" to cheat.

 

It did not make sense then... it doesn't make sense now... 33 years later... and my guess is... it will never make sense.

 

Just as the cheater needs to get inside the head of their betrayed to understand the pain they have caused.... I think a betrayed has to try to get inside of the head of their cheater to understand their mindset at the time of the offense.

 

Understanding cause and effect and communicating about it.. is probably the most successful road to healing.

 

I remember when my husband had his revenge affair .. he said to me... I was trying to get into your mind to do what you had done to see if it would help me understand how you could do this... but all I accomplished was to become as low as you had become and I still did not understand.

 

Sad isn't it? And I will tell you... I remain just as confused.

 

When I say I became a person I did not know or recognize...I tell the truth... I don't know where she came from and yet NOW I know what I am capable of...

 

I acknowledge that and hold myself accountable and remain transparent in our relationship... not only because I want to for his sake... but because it also makes me accountable to myself... I want to make sure that my boundaries never ever change again...

 

The one thing I have learned in this journey...betrayed and waywards who are In reconciliation both want the same thing... for it never to have happened in the first place.

 

I think that is probably the most helpful thing my wife has said to me to date, how she'd do anything to take it back. I think that most people, at the end of an A, think to themselves, if they are honest, "That was NOT worth it". Sounds like your husband certainly thought that and you did as well. I suspect it's true for many who get involved in something like that. In some ways, it really is like a drug addiction, sure, it was great while you were in it, but the fallout makes it totally not worth it after it's over.

 

It's just so hard to get into her head, I can't imagine what she was thinking and I'm not sure she can imagine what she was thinking at this point. Some of the questions and discussions, I can see her just blank out; yes, I did that, no, I can't explain why. Again, to the drug addict mentality, in the midst of an addiction, people do terrible things that they simply cannot explain after the addiction ends in any meaningful way. And, the hard thing for me, I'm always looking for a logical reason. "Sex hurts with you and I wanted to leave with my AP because it didn't hurt with him". That would be an answer that, while I wouldn't be happy about, would understand. "He was going to pay for IVF and we were going to have children together". Again, stings like falling into a hornet's nest, but I get it, it's something I can understand. But, the more we talk about it, the more questions I ask, the more I think there really isn't something like that. "Because she wanted to" is perhaps as close as I'll really get to "understanding" (in quotes, because, that's not really understanding anything!).

 

Looking back, do you happen to remember when you decided your husband didn't care? Was it before the A or during it? Not that it much matters, I just wonder if WS's typically give themselves "permission before they do it" or if they retroactively grant themselves permission after it starts.