Low sex partner in affair. Fresh d-day

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think that is probably the most helpful thing my wife has said to me to date, how she'd do anything to take it back. I think that most people, at the end of an A, think to themselves, if they are honest, "That was NOT worth it". Sounds like your husband certainly thought that and you did as well. I suspect it's true for many who get involved in something like that. In some ways, it really is like a drug addiction, sure, it was great while you were in it, but the fallout makes it totally not worth it after it's over.

 

It's just so hard to get into her head, I can't imagine what she was thinking and I'm not sure she can imagine what she was thinking at this point. Some of the questions and discussions, I can see her just blank out; yes, I did that, no, I can't explain why. Again, to the drug addict mentality, in the midst of an addiction, people do terrible things that they simply cannot explain after the addiction ends in any meaningful way. And, the hard thing for me, I'm always looking for a logical reason. "Sex hurts with you and I wanted to leave with my AP because it didn't hurt with him". That would be an answer that, while I wouldn't be happy about, would understand. "He was going to pay for IVF and we were going to have children together". Again, stings like falling into a hornet's nest, but I get it, it's something I can understand. But, the more we talk about it, the more questions I ask, the more I think there really isn't something like that. "Because she wanted to" is perhaps as close as I'll really get to "understanding" (in quotes, because, that's not really understanding anything!).

 

Looking back, do you happen to remember when you decided your husband didn't care? Was it before the A or during it? Not that it much matters, I just wonder if WS's typically give themselves "permission before they do it" or if they retroactively grant themselves permission after it starts.

 

 

I can only speak for me.

 

I was happy.. we had a good marriage.

Had I not met the ap... would I have remained faithful? Well.. hindsight is always 20/20... and I don't think I would have cheated. It was after I met him... and enjoyed his attention...that I began to question my husband... that I began to look for things that could validate my cheating in my own mind.

 

Cheating happens way before you have sex... it happens when you start thinking about the attention and the responses and the smiles and the flirting and compliments... etc. I knew I was crossing a line even though I had not "done anything. But I think very few cheaters don't have a conscience.. so in order to stop the guilty feelings... you have to validate and give yourself permission.

 

If in your mind.. your spouse doesn't care.. then bingo... now you have a reason... now you can blame shift and you are not the bad guy... your spouse is.

 

I knew better.. john was not guilty of anything... he had not moved in our relationship .. I had

 

My choice was 100% on me....

 

Was john perfect? No but he was committed to me and he would have done anything to fix it if I had told him I had an issue.. but he can't fix something he doesn't know about and he can't fix something that wasn't even really there.

 

Your wife cheated because she wanted to... she cheated because she convinced herself she deserved it.

 

Did you have issues ... maybe... was the answer in fixing those issues another man?

 

No

 

And she knew it then and she knows it now

[Overtaxed]

I can only speak for me.

 

I was happy.. we had a good marriage.

Had I not met the ap... would I have remained faithful? Well.. hindsight is always 20/20... and I don't think I would have cheated. It was after I met him... and enjoyed his attention...that I began to question my husband... that I began to look for things that could validate my cheating in my own mind.

 

Cheating happens way before you have sex... it happens when you start thinking about the attention and the responses and the smiles and the flirting and compliments... etc. I knew I was crossing a line even though I had not "done anything. But I think very few cheaters don't have a conscience.. so in order to stop the guilty feelings... you have to validate and give yourself permission.

 

If in your mind.. your spouse doesn't care.. then bingo... now you have a reason... now you can blame shift and you are not the bad guy... your spouse is.

 

I knew better.. john was not guilty of anything... he had not moved in our relationship .. I had

 

My choice was 100% on me....

 

Was john perfect? No but he was committed to me and he would have done anything to fix it if I had told him I had an issue.. but he can't fix something he doesn't know about and he can't fix something that wasn't even really there.

 

Your wife cheated because she wanted to... she cheated because she convinced herself she deserved it.

 

Did you have issues ... maybe... was the answer in fixing those issues another man?

 

No

 

And she knew it then and she knows it now

 

I suspect you're experience is similar to my wife's. This guy was in "right place, right time". He had power over her because of his former position in the company. She looked at him as a spiritual leader (I know, could it get much worse?). And we were in a bad place at the time; tons of stuff going on, I was traveling for a work a lot, new house, constant discussion about children, discussion about possible D. It was a total storm of factors.

 

I'm really having trouble tempering my anger at the AP. I knew this man. I sat down for dinner with him several times. I know his family. And he put a laser beam target on my wife and started breaking her down when she was weak. It makes me so angry I just can't even see straight sometimes when I think about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm very angry at my wife too, she should have known what he was trying to do, and she should have told me when he professed his love for her. That's where she went to the "dark side" and started to play into his hands. But, man, does this man really have no shame? Holding yourself out as a spiritual leader, friendly with the husband, married with kids at home, and yet, still willing to throw every trick in the book at her to get her to sleep with him. It's beyond reprehensible behavior, it really is; I've talked a lot about "crossing the line" and where I could see myself doing it and where I couldn't. A one night stand thing with someone while on a work trip? Yeah, that could happen to me, and it's why I'm very careful in those situations. Bringing a one night stand or a regular AP to our home? Nope, couldn't do that (and this is entirely on my wife). Targeting and relentlessly pursing a married woman when you held a position of power over her and are friendly with her husband, and he's friendly with your wife? And telling the woman that "God wants this for us". Wow.. No, just no. Not in a million years. There's just no words for the depth of that level of depravity; I only hope that he gets help for whatever character flaw is in him and his wife can somehow forgive him to help him to find a better path. Because, I don't see it; I just don't. It's so far beyond the realm of my ability to conceive of "evil" behavior, I'm can't even conceptualize it. Feel like something from a daytime talk show, and yet, somehow, it's become my life.

 

However, what you said, at the end of the day is the only thing that really matters is finding out why she did it, and why she fell for such a tired pick up routine. The 2nd part I think I know, I wasn't giving her the emotional closeness that she needs. The first part; I'm with you Mrs. John Adams, I may never know. Because I was a bad husband? Because she wanted to? Because she wanted to get back at me? Because she felt the marriage was over anyway? I honestly probably will never really have an answer to this because, frankly, I'm not sure she even knows.

[CaliforniaGirl]

When my wh said he didn't think I cared, my only response was "then why did you go to such extremes to lie? If I didn't care, you should have told me and I wouldn't have cared." The only person not caring in this situation is the cheater.

 

Well, to play devil's advocate, this isn't necessarily true. ^ Even if a person doesn't love another person, it's possible s/he will become VERY vengeful when his/her "property" (spouse) steps out and things can indeed get ugly.

 

It doesn't take one partner caring about the other partner to do that.

 

Of course a cheater is going to be afraid of the betrayed spouse's reaction, whether that person feels loved by that spouse or not.

[Mrs. John Adams]

No she doesn't know either.

 

Here's the thing....at the end of the day....only you know what you can withstand. My husband never dreamed that he could forgive me if i ever cheated...it was against every principle he believed in. It was way over his line....and yet....here we are 33 years later....together and happy. The struggle is difficult....and I will be the first to tell you..you will never forget.

 

But do you love her? Is she ultimately worth it ...TO YOU.... Not to anyone else....TO YOU? The ONLY person that can answer this is you.

 

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks you should do. Can you forgive her...provided she shows you she is worth it? Are you willing to work with her toward reconciliation? What if...she is not capable of showing you remorse? Are you still willing to accept her....broken?

[CaliforniaGirl]

I suspect you're experience is similar to my wife's. This guy was in "right place, right time". He had power over her because of his former position in the company. She looked at him as a spiritual leader (I know, could it get much worse?). And we were in a bad place at the time; tons of stuff going on, I was traveling for a work a lot, new house, constant discussion about children, discussion about possible D. It was a total storm of factors.

 

I'm really having trouble tempering my anger at the AP. I knew this man. I sat down for dinner with him several times. I know his family. And he put a laser beam target on my wife and started breaking her down when she was weak. It makes me so angry I just can't even see straight sometimes when I think about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm very angry at my wife too, she should have known what he was trying to do, and she should have told me when he professed his love for her. That's where she went to the "dark side" and started to play into his hands. But, man, does this man really have no shame? Holding yourself out as a spiritual leader, friendly with the husband, married with kids at home, and yet, still willing to throw every trick in the book at her to get her to sleep with him. It's beyond reprehensible behavior, it really is; I've talked a lot about "crossing the line" and where I could see myself doing it and where I couldn't. A one night stand thing with someone while on a work trip? Yeah, that could happen to me, and it's why I'm very careful in those situations. Bringing a one night stand or a regular AP to our home? Nope, couldn't do that (and this is entirely on my wife). Targeting and relentlessly pursing a married woman when you held a position of power over her and are friendly with her husband, and he's friendly with your wife? And telling the woman that "God wants this for us". Wow.. No, just no. Not in a million years. There's just no words for the depth of that level of depravity; I only hope that he gets help for whatever character flaw is in him and his wife can somehow forgive him to help him to find a better path. Because, I don't see it; I just don't. It's so far beyond the realm of my ability to conceive of "evil" behavior, I'm can't even conceptualize it. Feel like something from a daytime talk show, and yet, somehow, it's become my life.

 

However, what you said, at the end of the day is the only thing that really matters is finding out why she did it, and why she fell for such a tired pick up routine. The 2nd part I think I know, I wasn't giving her the emotional closeness that she needs. The first part; I'm with you Mrs. John Adams, I may never know. Because I was a bad husband? Because she wanted to? Because she wanted to get back at me? Because she felt the marriage was over anyway? I honestly probably will never really have an answer to this because, frankly, I'm not sure she even knows.

 

Early last year I asked my husband for an open marriage and stated specifically, as I had many times before, even in MC, that it was BECAUSE he did not care for/about me yet it was not (and still is not yet) feasible for us to D.

 

He refused, but my point here is: it WAS because he didn't care. Specifically. Full stop. And yes. I had communicated that clearly. Sometimes calmly. Sometimes crying. Once or twice, begging. Many times, angrily. Many times, logically and dispassionately. In words. In explanatory, calm letters. In every possible way. For years. It was VERY VERY CLEAR to him that I KNEW AND UNDERSTOOD he did not love me and that I NEEDED LOVE IN MY LIFE.

 

I had not "met someone," I was not flirting with anyone. There was nobody in the wings. It was not a case of, everything was happy, then I had an A (I didn't, BTW, and to this date there hasn't been "anybody," including an EA, or cyber...nothing at all) and rewrote history.

 

Just saying, one person's experience is not every person's experience. Just because one person on an internet form never felt uncared for yet mysteriously had an A doesn't mean your wife never felt uncared for. (OTOH it doesn't mean your experiences don't match...just saying, there is not guarantee. She is ONE person whom you want to believe. I am ONE other person giving an exactly opposite POV. There is no reason for one stranger to be so like your wife, but another stranger be so not like your wife...let's be logical here.)

 

In fact, some things you've said on here point to your wife having previously felt you were distant. You even said you were distant. You even told us she said she threatened divorce just to make you care.

 

That all reads to me as: she didn't feel you cared, long before she found her AP.

[bigman1]

I have been reading your last post Overtaxed and I have to say that while I appreciate the sould searching that you are doing, you are making your wife seem like a victim. She's a victim of you and a victim of her feelings and a victim of the OM. None of that is true.

 

She's not 6 years old and easily maniplated. Smooth talkers don't talk committed married women into bed. You can be mad at him, and he deserves your anger. Still, what vibe was your wife giving off?

 

In college I did some things. Let me tell you, a woman who is looking for a reason to sleep with you will find a reason. Of course, a woman who is not going to do it will tell you "no". Not maybe. Not, ooh I am so vulnerable or my husband does not find me attractive so can you make me feel better.

 

She married you so in this equation, she has no claim of being taken advantage of, unless he threatened her job or position. Other than that, she was available, willing, titillated, curious, whatever word conveys active participant.

 

Own that. It was not a perfect storm of anything. Relentless pursuit...dude, try that on a woman. Keep coming on and getting rejected. They turn nasty. I have a friend, a dear friend, he's that guy. It does not work. You have got to embrace the fact that she was curious, then she was really curious, then she was interested, then she was ready, then willing, then able. The thing is, she sent that message out and he persisted.

 

You can R with her, but start with being real about what she did and who she was; otherwise,...not so good.

[Overtaxed]

No she doesn't know either.

 

Here's the thing....at the end of the day....only you know what you can withstand. My husband never dreamed that he could forgive me if i ever cheated...it was against every principle he believed in. It was way over his line....and yet....here we are 33 years later....together and happy. The struggle is difficult....and I will be the first to tell you..you will never forget.

 

But do you love her? Is she ultimately worth it ...TO YOU.... Not to anyone else....TO YOU? The ONLY person that can answer this is you.

 

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks you should do. Can you forgive her...provided she shows you she is worth it? Are you willing to work with her toward reconciliation? What if...she is not capable of showing you remorse? Are you still willing to accept her....broken?

 

The answer to all of this is yes. I can forgive her; and she is worth it. I know I'll never forget, but I'm a pro at compartmentalizing; this will just fit into another "do not open" box if I decide to move forward with her. Is that healthy? Probably not, but it's the way I deal with things. If anything, I'm trying to be careful not to jam it in the box with the rest of the ugly from my younger years too early; before I've really had a chance to decide "do I want to live with this". For me, I already know how I'll rationalize it away; we both slept with people before we were married, me a whole lot more than her. I'll just push the sex with the AP into the "before married" category. I know, it's probably not the right answer, but it's the answer I give myself that I know will "work" and let me move forward if I choose to do so.

 

She is capable of showing remorse, I'm seeing glimpses of it. But remorse isn't my end goal here. What I really want to dig out, more than anything else is "Do you want this" (our marriage) and "Are you willing to fight for it". If the answer to both of those is "Yes" for her (and I believe it), then the answer for me is (and really always has been) "Yes" as well. The only reason I was so passive when she said "divorce" and went into logical/how to get it done mode is because what she was telling me, in essence was "I don't want this anymore". And I wasn't going to try to change her mind, in my eyes; I'd done "what I can do" and if that wasn't enough, I wasn't going to be the one to hold her in this marriage and force/beg/cajole her to stay. I was willing to fight, but, to me, she'd already given up. Of course, the discovery of the affair changed that, I knew WHY she had given up, and that was something that I could fight for. I know this probably doesn't make a lot of sense, but I was willing to throw in the towel without a fight before the A came to light, but I'm not willing to do it now because I feel this is fixable; just falling out of love with someone, in my eyes, isn't.

 

I suppose I'm a bit luckier, I don't have principals that really run counter to cheating. I know how it happens. I work and know people who do it all the time. So that won't be as big a struggle for me as it was for your husband. The real struggle for me will be getting over the lies; that DOES run counter to everything I believe and those lies go back a LONG way before the A started. The gaslighting and lying is what makes me think "I shouldn't R" much more than the "I had sex with another man". Again, perhaps counter to what you'd expect (certainly counter to what I expected before this happens), but, it's how I feel and what I struggle with the most. Not "how could you sleep with him", but "how could you put me through this hell for the past few years (over the incident in the fertility clinic) and even more so over the past few months (when the A was raging and our marriage was falling apart)".

 

Your story is really an inspiration to me; do you have a full thread that I could read? I'd love to see the longer version of what you and your H went through.

[Overtaxed]

I have been reading your last post Overtaxed and I have to say that while I appreciate the sould searching that you are doing, you are making your wife seem like a victim. She's a victim of you and a victim of her feelings and a victim of the OM. None of that is true.

 

She's not 6 years old and easily maniplated. Smooth talkers don't talk committed married women into bed. You can be mad at him, and he deserves your anger. Still, what vibe was your wife giving off?

 

In college I did some things. Let me tell you, a woman who is looking for a reason to sleep with you will find a reason. Of course, a woman who is not going to do it will tell you "no". Not maybe. Not, ooh I am so vulnerable or my husband does not find me attractive so can you make me feel better.

 

She married you so in this equation, she has no claim of being taken advantage of, unless he threatened her job or position. Other than that, she was available, willing, titillated, curious, whatever word conveys active participant.

 

Own that. It was not a perfect storm of anything. Relentless pursuit...dude, try that on a woman. Keep coming on and getting rejected. They turn nasty. I have a friend, a dear friend, he's that guy. It does not work. You have got to embrace the fact that she was curious, then she was really curious, then she was interested, then she was ready, then willing, then able. The thing is, she sent that message out and he persisted.

 

You can R with her, but start with being real about what she did and who she was; otherwise,...not so good.

 

I agree, but I don't think it's as black and white as you make it out to be. One correction, I do NOT think my wife is a victim of "me". If this marriage blows up, I will walk out with my head held high; I did what I said I was going to do and tried my hardest to make this work. Yes, I made mistakes. But none of them were made with evil intent, they were mistakes. I do NOT feel that I'm to blame here, just that I, like her, had some issues in the marriage that need to addressed.

 

Now, onto the AP and my wife's role. Yes, she was curious. Yes, she wanted to have sex with him (and admitted that to me in no uncertain terms). And yes, she's not 6 years old. But, all that said, he did manipulate the he** out of her. He pressed every button, and used his experience with her from the time they worked together to really twist her up. Yes, she let him do this, and she should have stepped away or told me what was going on, that's her huge mistake and she does need to own that (and has). But, man, the methods this guy used border on criminal. And I have both sides of the conversation, my wife was not reciprocating this stuff, he was non-stop tearing away at her resolve, and she was, in some cases, honestly trying to change the subject to something else. Yes, she chose to sleep with him. Yes, she invited him into our home (after he suggested it and made it seem like not a big deal, I'll add for clarity). She did do a tremendous number of terrible things. But she was manipulated, there's no question of that. And she did the same thing to him in some ways, finding the things he was missing in his relationship and mirroring them back to him. But his side was far worse. Again, I thank God for the access I was able to get to the correspondence, without it, I'm not sure I'd know enough to even consider a R. If she said "it was all him, he chased me like I had rainbows flying out my butt" I'm not sure I'd believe it. But she didn't tell me that, she told me a story that put herself in a more negative light than the e-mails/txt messages actually tell me (which, of course, is the truth, no reason to lie when you think I couldn't see them).

 

The last thing I'll say, which I doubt nobody anybody wants to hear.. Yes, smooth talkers do talk committed women into bed every day. The defense here is DO NOT ENGAGE, not to think "I'm not going to fall for this crap". The reverse is true for men; women dressed up in revealing outfits and making overt sexual gestures at men DO convince committed men to cheat. The defense here is similar, DO NOT ENGAGE and do not put yourself in situations where women are going to approach you like that (bars, primarily). But it does happen, it happens all the time. If it didn't, there wouldn't be entire message boards devoted to talking married women into bed. There wouldn't be books on it. And there wouldn't be guys studying and perfecting those techniques. But there are, everyone, and I do mean everyone has a "chink" in their armor. It's all about finding out what it is and exploiting it. For my wife, it was my lack of emotion and unwillingness to go further to have children. For a lot of men, it's the lack of sex in their lives. But we all have a chink, something another person who lacks moral character can use to establish an emotional connection and start the process of moving towards sex far more easily than coming at it the "traditional" way. That's what much of the dating material I read as a young man was all about, figuring out those buttons and learning to push them as quickly as possible. And yes, it does work; so well, in fact, that it's kind of unfair. Just like police have a "script" they follow to break someone down in the interrogation room, there is a similar script that will break down many defenses and often lead to a quick "close" (sex) for a huge number of people who'd NEVER do it if the person didn't know or use those techniques. Psychology is a science for a reason (although, sometimes questionable!), there are principals that are broadly applicable to the majority of humans, stuff like this is one of them.

[Mrs. John Adams]

The answer to all of this is yes. I can forgive her; and she is worth it. I know I'll never forget, but I'm a pro at compartmentalizing; this will just fit into another "do not open" box if I decide to move forward with her. Is that healthy? Probably not, but it's the way I deal with things. If anything, I'm trying to be careful not to jam it in the box with the rest of the ugly from my younger years too early; before I've really had a chance to decide "do I want to live with this". For me, I already know how I'll rationalize it away; we both slept with people before we were married, me a whole lot more than her. I'll just push the sex with the AP into the "before married" category. I know, it's probably not the right answer, but it's the answer I give myself that I know will "work" and let me move forward if I choose to do so.

 

She is capable of showing remorse, I'm seeing glimpses of it. But remorse isn't my end goal here. What I really want to dig out, more than anything else is "Do you want this" (our marriage) and "Are you willing to fight for it". If the answer to both of those is "Yes" for her (and I believe it), then the answer for me is (and really always has been) "Yes" as well. The only reason I was so passive when she said "divorce" and went into logical/how to get it done mode is because what she was telling me, in essence was "I don't want this anymore". And I wasn't going to try to change her mind, in my eyes; I'd done "what I can do" and if that wasn't enough, I wasn't going to be the one to hold her in this marriage and force/beg/cajole her to stay. I was willing to fight, but, to me, she'd already given up. Of course, the discovery of the affair changed that, I knew WHY she had given up, and that was something that I could fight for. I know this probably doesn't make a lot of sense, but I was willing to throw in the towel without a fight before the A came to light, but I'm not willing to do it now because I feel this is fixable; just falling out of love with someone, in my eyes, isn't.

 

I suppose I'm a bit luckier, I don't have principals that really run counter to cheating. I know how it happens. I work and know people who do it all the time. So that won't be as big a struggle for me as it was for your husband. The real struggle for me will be getting over the lies; that DOES run counter to everything I believe and those lies go back a LONG way before the A started. The gaslighting and lying is what makes me think "I shouldn't R" much more than the "I had sex with another man". Again, perhaps counter to what you'd expect (certainly counter to what I expected before this happens), but, it's how I feel and what I struggle with the most. Not "how could you sleep with him", but "how could you put me through this hell for the past few years (over the incident in the fertility clinic) and even more so over the past few months (when the A was raging and our marriage was falling apart)".

 

Your story is really an inspiration to me; do you have a full thread that I could read? I'd love to see the longer version of what you and your H went through.

 

Well you cannot reconcile by yourself...so unless she is willing to put in the work required to help you lift the weight of this....reconciliation wont be successful. Acceptance on your behalf? yes....and there's nothing wrong with acceptance...if it is ok with the two of you.

 

I have never started a thread with our full story...but i think our story is floating around here somewhere on other threads. If you have specific questions you can pm me....I will tell you our stories are not similar at all...other than the fact that we have been touched by infidelity...

[AnneP]

OT: You have offered your wife a way out if that's what she wants. You've offered to give her money to restart her life and make her dream of having kids come true. You've done way more than a lot of men in your position would have done. If your wife chooses your marriage over leaving, she cannot hold anything over your head. You gave her the option. Period.

 

I wish you luck.

[Overtaxed]

OT: You have offered your wife a way out if that's what she wants. You've offered to give her money to restart her life and make her dream of having kids come true. You've done way more than a lot of men in your position would have done. If your wife chooses your marriage over leaving, she cannot hold anything over your head. You gave her the option. Period.

 

I wish you luck.

 

Well, I have to be honest, there's a selfish motive in my offer (although the offer is sincere). I don't her to stay if she can't be happy or if this was an "exit affair" that I blew up for her. If she wants to go I really do want her to go. The last thing I want is to go through the work to R (for both of us) and then have her leave a year from now because "I'm not happy". So I figured the fastest way to get at that would be to offer an "easy out" when she's the most emotionally detached from me and see if that is, in fact, what she wants. And it really couldn't be easier right now, movers are coming in 2 weeks; house that we currently live is isn't sold. Just don't make the move; you can stay in this house until it sells and then take 1/2 the proceeds (which will be quite a bit of money) to move on. And, of course, the secret of the A stays with me, no blowing up work/family/etc. If I was looking for an exit from a relationship and someone offered me this, I'd be thinking that I must be the luckiest man alive.

 

The last thing in the world that I want is a "fake" R. Or an R "for the money" or even an R because "I feel like I have to". If she does want to R (which, every day, it seems clearer and clearer that she does), I do too. But, as another poster said, it's got to be both people. I can't R by myself. The thing I never want held over my head is "I wanted to leave that day you found the e-mails, but I didn't because of our prenup". That would be like a stake to the heart hearing that 6,12,24 (or ever, really) months from now. If you asked me about my "old wife" (the one who I didn't think capable of this), I'd tell you no way would that sway her decision. Ask me today the same question, I'd still say that, but with a little voice in the back of my mind squawking at me saying "You thought the same thing about sleeping with other men IDIOT!".

[understand50]

OverTaxed,

 

Look, you have been leaning for reconciliation sense you got here. That is not bad thing, I reconciled, and there are others. So, I have asked you this question several times, and I think you need to ask yourself again, "does this hurt or help our reconciliation" Now we only have your side, so we do not know how much your wife id helping or just....

 

I also stated you may have to guide her, as knowing how to reconcile is something we are not born with. You are clear that she was manipulated into the affair, by the AP, so why do you not think she can not see how to move forward with you. I think you both need to set out to find a path that works for you both and then take action. So talk it out, be open to hearing what she has to say, and you open as well. BTW, this is something that every marriage should do in any case. Recovering from a affair, is just working on the marriage, unfortunately, it happens under heavy stress.

 

As for why, I submit, that you may never know, and why is a many layered thing. One layer, was she did not think you would care or did care, and the AP offered some emotion. Anther layer was she found the sex fun, and enjoyable, especially at first. One layer, is that she did have some feeling for him. I am sure she was also mad at you for what ever reason.

 

Add it together, and you get the affair, and in such a way she can not point to any one thing. She really does not know, as many things came in to play. I would bet may FWS would agree on this, along with the many BS that have been working to gain some understanding. In our case, her ONS was the same many layered event, and we have come to know mostly why. As most have stated, in the end, when she was heading for sex with the AP for the first or only time, it was because at that moment she wanted to, and that was all that mattered to her. Her love, her morals were overridden. Yes, they may regret it, know it is wrong, but they get cought up and then are compromised. If you think about it, this is how most people make bad life decisions.

 

I wish you luck....

[Overtaxed]

OverTaxed,

 

Look, you have been leaning for reconciliation sense you got here. That is not bad thing, I reconciled, and there are others. So, I have asked you this question several times, and I think you need to ask yourself again, "does this hurt or help our reconciliation" Now we only have your side, so we do not know how much your wife id helping or just....

 

I also stated you may have to guide her, as knowing how to reconcile is something we are not born with. You are clear that she was manipulated into the affair, by the AP, so why do you not think she can not see how to move forward with you. I think you both need to set out to find a path that works for you both and then take action. So talk it out, be open to hearing what she has to say, and you open as well. BTW, this is something that every marriage should do in any case. Recovering from a affair, is just working on the marriage, unfortunately, it happens under heavy stress.

 

As for why, I submit, that you may never know, and why is a many layered thing. One layer, was she did not think you would care or did care, and the AP offered some emotion. Anther layer was she found the sex fun, and enjoyable, especially at first. One layer, is that she did have some feeling for him. I am sure she was also mad at you for what ever reason.

 

Add it together, and you get the affair, and in such a way she can not point to any one thing. She really does not know, as many things came in to play. I would bet may FWS would agree on this, along with the many BS that have been working to gain some understanding. In our case, her ONS was the same many layered event, and we have come to know mostly why. As most have stated, in the end, when she was heading for sex with the AP for the first or only time, it was because at that moment she wanted to, and that was all that mattered to her. Her love, her morals were overridden. Yes, they may regret it, know it is wrong, but they get cought up and then are compromised. If you think about it, this is how most people make bad life decisions.

 

I wish you luck....

 

That's the question I ask myself every day. Does this hurt or help? And I've made mistakes, some of the things I've said were not helpful, they were from a place of anger/pain and just came out. I know some of that stuff needs to come out, the "180" and all, but, honestly, I'm tired of playing games. If you (my WW) want to reconcile, here's what you're going to get, and here's what we're going to do. Not that the 180 doesn't have a place, it does, I'm just not going to become someone I'm not to save this marriage, if who I am isn't good enough without playing power games, so be it.

 

It's so hard to look at the A as a multi-layered event because I so want it to be "this was the problem" so I can fix it. I think children were a big part of it. My lack of emotional communication a big part of it. Perhaps pain during sex was some of it (less likely). My communication style (with very few words of affirmation) didn't help. But man, how I wish it was simple. I look at it from my perspective, for me an A would be dead simple "I was h*rny, she was hot, and I wanted to have sex". Full stop. I'd can't ever see myself getting into something more complicated, I don't like sharing my emotions with anyone, let alone adding another person (an AP)! I don't feel unloved, I don't feel like I need someone to talk to (well, maybe I do, but not another woman, this board and psych seem to be filling that just fine). It would be sex, that would be the beginning and end of the "reason" for me. And I want it to be that simple for her; but, it's not. I know that intellectually, but it's still very hard for me to unwind it and see how to fix things when I don't really know what caused it in the first place.

 

Also, my experience in my circle of friends and co-workers makes it hard. These people aren't making a spur of the moment bad decision. They are intentionally pursing bad decisions. As was my wife's AP. And as was my wife once the A got rolling (inviting him to our home, for example). That wasn't a spur of the moment decision, it was a deliberate act; much like my buddies saddling up to a single girl at the bar while on a business trip is an intentional act.

 

Things are going well, it's V-day and we've got plans tonight that I know I'm really looking forward to and I hope she is as well. I'm half expecting the AP to reach out today; if he does, the best V-day present my wife could possibly give me would be to come home and tell that he did and she didn't respond. We'll see; keeping my fingers crossed.

[GoldenR]

If he reaches out to her, you need to make a house call.

[Overtaxed]

If he reaches out to her, you need to make a house call.

 

Nahh, no need for that. I have his wife on speed dial, she'll turn his world into a living hell pretty quickly for me. He has a few kids, she's a SAHM, no prenup. He's basically a walking target if she chooses to file; he'll be eating Ramen for the rest of his life. I'm thinking that's a much more effective deterrent than my fists (although would that feel good).

[Weezy1973]

I don't generally post in these sections, but honestly OT, I don't know what you're holding on to. She is a bad wife in so many ways. Let her go.

 

You're incompatible in sex drive, core values (i.e. children) and maturity (i.e. you protect your relationship and she doesn't). She lies, manipulates and cheats. What are you holding on to?

 

Remember that emotions aren't rational. Including love. But I think you're holding onto her for a much more nefarious reason and that is fear. You fear getting hurt and opening up yourself truly and intimately with anyone. You felt you could do that with your wife and fear that you'll never find that again. And therefore "the enemy that you know" holds true with you.

 

Make no mistake, your wife is NOT a good partner. She never has been. You're deluding yourself in thinking that she is.

 

Also, I highly suspect your wife to have experienced childhood trauma. That would explain everything, and would be a great reason for you to leave as those issues run very deep (i.e. you can't save her).

[Overtaxed]

I don't generally post in these sections, but honestly OT, I don't know what you're holding on to. She is a bad wife in so many ways. Let her go.

 

You're incompatible in sex drive, core values (i.e. children) and maturity (i.e. you protect your relationship and she doesn't). She lies, manipulates and cheats. What are you holding on to?

 

Remember that emotions aren't rational. Including love. But I think you're holding onto her for a much more nefarious reason and that is fear. You fear getting hurt and opening up yourself truly and intimately with anyone. You felt you could do that with your wife and fear that you'll never find that again. And therefore "the enemy that you know" holds true with you.

 

Make no mistake, your wife is NOT a good partner. She never has been. You're deluding yourself in thinking that she is.

 

Also, I highly suspect your wife to have experienced childhood trauma. That would explain everything, and would be a great reason for you to leave as those issues run very deep (i.e. you can't save her).

 

Interesting post, I've been sitting here thinking about "why hold on" for the past 30 minutes and still can't come to a definite conclusion. But it's not fear; I can tell you that for sure. The rational part of me knows I could walk out of this relationship richer than I am now, single at 40 years old in good shape with a good paying job. Not trying to be a complete a** (I do seem to have trouble with that), but I have no fear at all that I wouldn't have any problems finding women who I'd want to date and who would want to date me. And I travel all the time for work, so if I wanted to have a run of ONS's, I'm confident I could pull that off as well. So, I really don't feel "fear" as one of my driving emotions right now. As to fear of opening myself up, sitting here right now, I don't feel like I'd ever do that again. I only did it because it's what my wife said she wanted, it's terribly uncomfortable for me, and given the results I've seen; I'll keep the "darker" sides of myself hidden forever moving forward, either with my wife or with someone else. It's not worth it, I don't like sharing it anyway! Spouses think they want to know "all of you", but, when they see what that really means, I'm not sure they really do.

 

I do have to disagree on your statement that my wife has never been a good partner. She has. She's made some terrible mistakes (and I've made some less terrible ones) in our relationship, yes, without question. But she is a good partner if you carve out the stuff that I talk about here; I only give you guys the bad/terrible that she's done. We've been together for 15 years, sharing the good stuff would take this thread to 100 pages pretty quickly. Yes, we've always had issues in the bedroom. Yes, we have issues with children/pregnancy. But, if you remove those 2 things (not that they aren't VERY significant, they are), there's not a lot for me to fault her for. She's been a better partner than 95% of my friends have, that's without question. I don't have anyone I know in my life who I'd "trade places" with, let's put it that way; most of my friends marriages are horror movies, the spite, the backstabbing, the lack of sex, the lack of empathy, the complete lack of respect. It's awful. Perhaps I have a bad group of friends, but, honestly, after reading for 100's of hours on this topic, I just don't see "our marriage" in many of the stories I've read about problems in a marriage or reasons for affairs. This is not to defend her; she obviously has a very serious issue here that could be the end of our relationship. But painting the entire marriage as "bad" is simply, IMHO, not a reasonable way to look at it. The only reason I'm willing to try to fix it with her is because much of it was so good.

 

The childhood trauma thing; I'm curious why you think that. I'm also curious as to the answer; I've never really asked her directly. I know she felt a bit neglected and very pushed by her parents (kind of contradictory, but when she explains it to me, it does make sense). She's the youngest of 3, and wasn't planned, so I do wonder if she has some issues relating to that. AFAIK, she didn't have any sexual trauma as a young child. She did, however, have a string of just AWFUL relationships as a young woman, like, some of the worst you can imagine, including terrible sexual experiences early in her life. So, this certainly may be some of it; although, to be frank, it seems like a lot of women have a story similar to this, terrible sexual stuff that happened to them as a young adult. I'm not sure, but I will certainly see if there's anything to this line of thought.

 

We had a pretty good V-day, no fights, relaxing evening. Some laughs. No talk about the A. The AP did not reach out yesterday (which I find pretty surprising). Suppose he realizes sex is off the menu and has moved on to greener pastures.

 

Quick edit: You mentioned incompatible sex drives, and yes, this has always been an issue in our relationship. But it's been an issue in every relationship I've ever been in. If I was going to leave every woman because she didn't want to have sex as much as me, I might as well hang it up now and start planning the rest of my life alone. My sex drive is ridiculous, it always has been. When I was younger, I thought it was "normal" and couldn't understand why women didn't want it as much as I do. Now, having the benefit of some age/experience and lots of talks with other men, I realize I'm many standard deviations from the norm. I'd be shocked if there's a single woman out there who wants to have sex as much as I do; setting aside my chances of meeting this woman and being compatible in all the other ways that matter. It's just not going to happen, so leaving for that reason doesn't make sense to me.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Overtaxed

[Leelou]

You say your wife felt neglected and very pushed by her parents. And that she experienced terrible sexual stuff early on (I gather, in consensual relationships).

 

That may help to understand her feeling 'neglected' emotionally by you - a man she chose to marry, hoping you'd emotionally feed her soul.

And also, her low sex drive I would think, is directly a consequence of her early experiences with sex.

 

I don't know what you're talking about when you say you haven't found women to be as sexual as you - didn't you say you'd be happy having sex once or twice a day? Why would other women not be into that? Or at least 6-7 times per week?

hmm

[elaine567]

. I know she felt a bit neglected and very pushed by her parents (kind of contradictory, but when she explains it to me, it does make sense). She's the youngest of 3, and wasn't planned, so I do wonder if she has some issues relating to that. AFAIK, she didn't have any sexual trauma as a young child.

 

Dysfunctional family situation.

Dysfunctional Family Roles - which role do you think she adopted?

 

She did, however, have a string of just AWFUL relationships as a young woman, like, some of the worst you can imagine, including terrible sexual experiences early in her life. So, this certainly may be some of it; although, to be frank, it seems like a lot of women have a story similar to this, terrible sexual stuff that happened to them as a young adult. I'm not sure, but I will certainly see if there's anything to this line of thought.

 

Probably no coincidence. Desperate for the attention and the love she never got as a child, she got herself involved with some pretty terrible guys, who saw her vulnerability as an excuse to use and abuse her.

 

Again here, she felt neglected by you, so she jumped on the first guy who showed her any love and attention.

[elaine567]

And also, her low sex drive I would think, is directly a consequence of her early experiences with sex.

 

i agree and also OT needs to consider in light of the dreadful sexual experiences she had - vaginismus as a cause of the painful intercourse.

The symptoms can vary from one woman to the next. Some women are unable to insert anything into their vagina because it closes up completely, while others can insert a tampon but are unable to have penetrative sex, and other women are able to have sex but find it very painful.

What causes vaginismus?

 

Factors can include:

 

• thinking the vagina is too small
  
• negative sexual thoughts (thinking sex will be painful and cause damage)
  
• previous sexual abuse
  
• damage to the vagina (for example, during childbirth or an episotomy)
  
• painful conditions of the vagina and surrounding area, such as vulvodynia (see below)
  
• painful first intercourse
  
• relationship problems
  
• fear of pregnancy
  

[Overtaxed]

You say your wife felt neglected and very pushed by her parents. And that she experienced terrible sexual stuff early on (I gather, in consensual relationships).

 

That may help to understand her feeling 'neglected' emotionally by you - a man she chose to marry, hoping you'd emotionally feed her soul.

And also, her low sex drive I would think, is directly a consequence of her early experiences with sex.

 

I don't know what you're talking about when you say you haven't found women to be as sexual as you - didn't you say you'd be happy having sex once or twice a day? Why would other women not be into that? Or at least 6-7 times per week?

hmm

 

Yes, consensual, and pretty typical stuff, but it still bothered her (cheating BFs and emotional abuse). I would agree, I do think her low drive is a result of her early experiences with sex. I guess I just thought, after so long, that she'd start to see sex differently but she hasn't. It's amazing, those first few experiences really do color your view of something for a long time/forever!

 

Yeah, once a day would be a great sexual frequency for me, maybe twice on the weekend or occasionally thrown in for good measure. And then subtract out all the days I travel; you'd probably wind up around 200-300 times a year (depending on the number of "doubles"). However, I can tell you, I've NEVER met or dated a woman women who had anywhere near this level of drive. The average for women is 1X per week, IIRC (for preferred sexual frequency), so 1-2X/day is going to be WAY out of the norm. I've dated some really sexual women, but nothing like this. I'm sure they exist, but, I'm also equally sure that I'm not likely to find this person AND have them have the rest of the qualities that I'm looking for in a partner. I've resigned myself to being the high drive partner. But, think about it honestly. How many men do you know who AREN'T the high drive partner in a relationship? It's so common that it's a punchline of jokes, sure, there are exceptions, but, they are just that, exceptional.

[Overtaxed]

Dysfunctional family situation.

Dysfunctional Family Roles - which role do you think she adopted?

 

 

 

Probably no coincidence. Desperate for the attention and the love she never got as a child, she got herself involved with some pretty terrible guys, who saw her vulnerability as an excuse to use and abuse her.

 

Again here, she felt neglected by you, so she jumped on the first guy who showed her any love and attention.

 

I think of all the roles, she's probably "the hero". It's not a perfect fit, but it's pretty close. She's the "good one" compared to her siblings, the one that her parents expected the most of, and the one that's given them the least problems. She also throws herself on the sword for any family issue, giving of herself to try to resolve conflicts.

 

The last part; yup, that sounds pretty much exactly like what I was thinking. And she did date a string of terrible guys; honestly, I was a terrible guy when she met me, if I was her Dad I would have said "DON'T DATE HIM". The stereotypical bad boy, I didn't have a stable job, had a few girlfriends I was seeing at one time, didn't have any concrete life plans. But when I met her, that all changed, pretty much overnight. I knew what I wanted and started to put a plan into action. I do wonder, looking back, if I hadn't had that "bad boy" edge if she would have even been attracted to me; I'm embarrassed about that time in my life, wouldn't it be odd if that's the time that she really liked me?

 

And I think you're right, she did feel used/abused by me. But much/all of that was in her mind, she twisted things to make herself a passive victim in all this (not the A, just our marriage) where, in reality, she was right there for every decision. It's hard to see that; I never felt like I was doing this to her, but, because of my actions, I know that's how she felt. And yes, a guy paying her a few compliments during this period of time was just toxic to our relationship; which is really sad when you think about it, it wasn't like we had "years" of trouble here, it was a few bad months where we had tremendous pressure; new house to build, work stuff, the discussions and decisions about kids. But it wasn't like the world was falling down around us, nobody died, nobody lost their jobs; it was just normal marital stress. This scares me terribly, because, if we R, we WILL have periods like this again (a lot of them if we do decide to adopt), how do we prevent "He's not spending enough time with the baby" from turning into "The answer is in another man's pants"? I really don't know, there's certainly more that I can do, but will it/is it enough?

[Overtaxed]

1) thinking the vagina is too small

2) negative sexual thoughts (thinking sex will be painful and cause damage)

 

I can see these two in my wife (not the rest though). However, sensitive question here, she told me sex with the AP was not painful. And sometimes sex with me isn't painful (it depends on the time of the month). Do you think this applies in that case (seems like it would be every time and with any man)?

[Leelou]

I'm the woman who wants sex every day, and I know I'm not the only one , I've read about women on this site who want it more frequently than their partners. It's not the men who are always high sex drive, especially after middle age!

 

Ps: (I'm not your type, btw, so I'm not flirting with you!)

[Overtaxed]

I'm the woman who wants sex every day, and I know I'm not the only one , I've read about women on this site who want it more frequently than their partners. It's not the men who are always high sex drive, especially after middle age!

 

Ps: (I'm not your type, btw, so I'm not flirting with you!)

 

LOL, thanks for that, I needed that smile!

 

Here's crossing my fingers, maybe it just took this kind of blow up for my wife to find her inner drive for sex.