Low sex partner in affair. Fresh d-day

[Bryanp]

I just do not get it.

A wife bringing her lover into your house having sex

while you are working is the absolute ultimate in humiliation

and disrespect. The fact that you have accepted this says a great

deal about her and unfortunately it says a great deal about you.

[Jersey born raised]

Your post 249 is exactly why you should divorce, unless she proves otherwise. You have given up an essential part of who you are to be with her. She gave what you needed to another and still does get it. Until she does separate, ask her to vacant the house until a later date.

 

As to what share with others, she grew in a different direction and I need time to adjust. No more, no less although I would share the why. When I did woman and men sought me out and told me to hang in there. All I could do was say "you too ? No way!!".

[AnneP]

Your marriage has a lot going on. It's a mess. She wants kids, you don't. She is resentful towards you for not being close to her family. Your communication is crap. In a healthy marriage, she should have communicated her feelings BEFORE stepping out of the marriage; she's only now started communicating these things to you. She isn't remorseful at all.

 

I'm a Christian too and don't buy into this crap that we aren't supposed to enjoy sex. My argument is: If God didn't want us to enjoy it, he wouldn't have made it feel good. Period. The end.

 

Why is she angry with you for not living closer to her family? Was there a discussion about moving far away or was it kind of forced on her? I know it can be hard being away from any family, especially for a couple who don't have children.

 

I don't know if you already answered this or not, but are you going to marriage counseling? If you desire to work this out, you have to get marriage counseling. Btw, I would recommend a Christian counselor and a female. She can explain to your wife that her ideas about sex are wrong. I've seen Christian and no -Christian therapists and found the Christian one was more tough on my husband. She even told him that he would likely need to cut his mother off for good. No contact ever again. They aren't going to tell either of you what you want to hear and aren't going to side with her just because she's a Christian and you're not. I think with your wife's religious beliefs that a Christian counselor would be best. I'm sure the counselor will see the ridiculous irony in your wife having issues with sex with her husband, but had no problem stepping out with another man who also happened to be married.

 

Also, you asked about implementing "game" on your wife. I think it's a horrible idea because if you cannot be honest and vulnerable with your own wife, then what's the point in being married? I see this as another major communication problem. I do think you need to pull back some and protect your heart. She doesn't seem remorseful AT ALL.

 

Therapy is probably going to be the only chance you have. I am so happy that you got a pre-nup. Maybe the intuition was there that she was capable of this.

 

So sorry for everything you're going through. For what it's worth: you are handling it better than most.

[Tribble]

Good point, although I do think I'll take other's suggestions and let her know how disappointed I am in her. This could have been stopped at the EA stage if she had told me and not moved on to PA; that's really disappointing, especially since I really am a reasonable person. My wife slept with another man in our house and I haven't thrown her out, I sure as heck wouldn't have kicked her out for having feelings towards another man and telling me (or finding out from a friend that something was wrong).

 

It's up to you what you do, but just reflect on this. It is not the friends fault this affair escalated. It is your wifes. The blame is firmly at her door and should be placed there.

 

Giving a different perspective (although nowhere near as bad as your situation!). My best friend ® was told by one of her friends (L) that she was having an affair. R knows Ls bf very well and her bf is also friends with them. She was so shocked. She phoned me straight after to get some advise as an outside perspective. She wondered why she'd been told. Was she meant to be a sounding board, a moral compass, to give validation? She wondered whether she should tell. She didn't. She did encourage L to look to her own relationship, really consider what she was doing. In no way did she encourage or support the affair. Knowing has affected their relationship and I don't know whether it will recover.

 

In the case of your wifes friend, what was she meant to tell you? That your wife has feelings for someone? Your wife could have easily denied everything. Also, sometimes your eye might wander. You talk it over with a friend to bring yourself down to reality and you work on your relationship. We don't know exactly what the friend knew or what she was told or what advise and support she gave to your wife. Regardless, unless she was telling her to go for it and asking for all the juicy details, I wouldn't say she is toxic to your marriage. Your wife has taken care of that.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Anne, you use the word ' Christian' and you say that you are one. What exactly do you imply by that and what is it that other people are to understand about you when you make that claim? I was born a Christian and was baptized as one and yet so many years later while I would still claim I am a Christian if someone asked me ( and by the way I live in a country where Christians are in the minority), I have given up going to church on a regular basis and I find that the type of Christianity that people profess to practice is often repugnant to me.

 

I have to say that I am liberal in my thinking and I have an open mind about most things, which is why I find that the narrow and closed minded thinking that people who call themselves Christians exhibit on a daily basis, is so unpleasant for me. With this background I do not know whether a so called Christian counselor would actually be the ideal person to provide therapy and guidance to Overtaxed and his wife. I may be wrong and I am certainly not implying that all so called Christians are narrow minded or have closed minds. However, those of them who are imbued with a religious fervour are certainly more likely to fall in that category. I must say though, that the points you highlighted in your post make eminent sense and I only hope that things work out well for Overtaxed and his wife. Warm wishes.

[Overtaxed]

Well, we're making progress. Last night was a knock down/drag out evening. I found something that wasn't related to the affair but provided a ton of insight into a past problem in our relationship and it just turned into a real ripper of a fight. Not to get into a ton of detail (because it doesn't matter) but there was an incident years ago that she was forever using as a wedge in our relationship, I found proof that I wasn't wrong, she really didn't tell me about what we were doing, and that my reaction (which is what she flipped out about) was justified.

 

More shoes dropped; the relationship was more sexual than initially indicated (shocker, right?). There was other stuff going on that I'd never expect from her. And the level of intensity in the fight reached a new level; I told her to "get out" last night because I knew she was lying; she started to pack and then broke down.

 

I think I'm closing in on 80% of the story. She's starting to show real remorse now; she was saying over and over last night the thing that I've been thinking "I've become everything that I hate in the world". The crying was uncontrollable and I think she's starting to "feel" again and, if nothing else, realize what's staring her in the face. Unprompted this morning (and we haven't talked about it in awhile, so I don't think this was specifically to appease me) she said "I need to find a new therapist, I think I'm getting bad advice".

 

You know the funny thing (and maybe this can help other WS's). As she started to tell me the real story (or at least most of it), it was like a wave of relief that washed over me. Sure, it was hurtful to hear; but the lies, those are what's eating me alive right now, not the acts themselves. The fact that she's working so hard to keep that part of herself private and lying, right to my face, over and over again. I know this is affair fog, and perhaps she's even trying to spare me the pain by lying, but.. When they say "The truth will set you free", there's really something to it. She told me some details that I didn't know (and I would have thought would be terribly hurtful) and, they just washed over me with almost no pain at all because, I finally knew she was telling me what actually happened.

 

For the first time, I started to see a glimmer of the person I know/knew in there. She was really ashamed, and it's like it all hit her at once. We're a few weeks out from d-day now, so I guess we're kind of on schedule for this, but, man, living with someone who's lying to you on a nightly basis and trying to "protect" pieces of their relationship with another person is terribly hard.

[Overtaxed]

It's up to you what you do, but just reflect on this. It is not the friends fault this affair escalated. It is your wifes. The blame is firmly at her door and should be placed there.

 

Giving a different perspective (although nowhere near as bad as your situation!). My best friend ® was told by one of her friends (L) that she was having an affair. R knows Ls bf very well and her bf is also friends with them. She was so shocked. She phoned me straight after to get some advise as an outside perspective. She wondered why she'd been told. Was she meant to be a sounding board, a moral compass, to give validation? She wondered whether she should tell. She didn't. She did encourage L to look to her own relationship, really consider what she was doing. In no way did she encourage or support the affair. Knowing has affected their relationship and I don't know whether it will recover.

 

In the case of your wifes friend, what was she meant to tell you? That your wife has feelings for someone? Your wife could have easily denied everything. Also, sometimes your eye might wander. You talk it over with a friend to bring yourself down to reality and you work on your relationship. We don't know exactly what the friend knew or what she was told or what advise and support she gave to your wife. Regardless, unless she was telling her to go for it and asking for all the juicy details, I wouldn't say she is toxic to your marriage. Your wife has taken care of that.

 

Thank you for this, it makes a ton of sense and I'm going to follow this advice. This friend has been, IMHO, a good think for my wife, and I can see how she was put into an impossible situation. I'm just going to let this go, or, at most, ask that she be more open with me if she hears something in the future that threatens our relationship.

[Overtaxed]

Your marriage has a lot going on. It's a mess. She wants kids, you don't. She is resentful towards you for not being close to her family. Your communication is crap. In a healthy marriage, she should have communicated her feelings BEFORE stepping out of the marriage; she's only now started communicating these things to you. She isn't remorseful at all.

 

I'm a Christian too and don't buy into this crap that we aren't supposed to enjoy sex. My argument is: If God didn't want us to enjoy it, he wouldn't have made it feel good. Period. The end.

 

Why is she angry with you for not living closer to her family? Was there a discussion about moving far away or was it kind of forced on her? I know it can be hard being away from any family, especially for a couple who don't have children.

 

I don't know if you already answered this or not, but are you going to marriage counseling? If you desire to work this out, you have to get marriage counseling. Btw, I would recommend a Christian counselor and a female. She can explain to your wife that her ideas about sex are wrong. I've seen Christian and no -Christian therapists and found the Christian one was more tough on my husband. She even told him that he would likely need to cut his mother off for good. No contact ever again. They aren't going to tell either of you what you want to hear and aren't going to side with her just because she's a Christian and you're not. I think with your wife's religious beliefs that a Christian counselor would be best. I'm sure the counselor will see the ridiculous irony in your wife having issues with sex with her husband, but had no problem stepping out with another man who also happened to be married.

 

Also, you asked about implementing "game" on your wife. I think it's a horrible idea because if you cannot be honest and vulnerable with your own wife, then what's the point in being married? I see this as another major communication problem. I do think you need to pull back some and protect your heart. She doesn't seem remorseful AT ALL.

 

Therapy is probably going to be the only chance you have. I am so happy that you got a pre-nup. Maybe the intuition was there that she was capable of this.

 

So sorry for everything you're going through. For what it's worth: you are handling it better than most.

 

We have not yet gone to therapy together. It's coming, we both know we have to do this.

 

Honestly, I questioned the pre-nup 100's of times. I did not think she was capable of this, not even a consideration for the pre-nup. I knew I was capable of it, and I knew that sometimes things just "go south" for no particular reason. But the biggest thing, I just never wanted it to be about money. I wanted her to be with me to enjoy our time together, not view me as a "forever" meal ticket and pretend to enjoy things to get to the 10 year mark and shoot for long term alimony. I couldn't live with that over my head, even if I thought, without a doubt, that she wasn't capable of doing it (or this).

 

She's very close with her family, and, yes, the move was somewhat "forced" on her (I got a job 1000 miles away). But it's not like we've had a bad life here, we haven't. She misses them, and uses that in a lot of areas to remind me of her sacrifice. My family is also very far away, so it's not like we traded one for another, we just have each other.

 

Sex is not very pleasurable for her. We actually discussed it last night in some "far too graphic" details. We have a size disparity, and she's always been afraid to tell me about it. I, of course, have been aware of this for some time and I try to take it slow and make it pleasurable for her, but it's been a constant struggle. The thing that I've told her for years; it's not sex, it's intimacy. I love giving/receiving oral sex and could be happy with that 80% of the time. I love massage, I love touching (mutual masturbation). She seems to have built up in her head (this is what she told me) that if it's "not sex" I'm disappointed. And, if that became a pattern and we never had sex, I would be. But I don't want to hurt her, sex when the other person is gritting their teeth isn't fun for anyone. Anyway, we've been talking about this a lot and trying to find some reasonable solutions. Without getting too graphic, this past weekend, we did something together that we've never done before and it was just amazing (and didn't hurt her at all). I know we can work around the "pleasure" part of sex, what I'm less confident in is the "emotional baggage" that she has surrounding sex. It's one of the reasons I never thought she could do this, she's so guilty about her sex drive and sex in general that I just couldn't fathom (still can't really) her seeking out more sex. If anything, I thought we'd get divorced and she'd probably live alone/without sex because it was so unimportant to her.

 

While I agree with your comment about "game" on the wife, I do have to make a counterpoint. I almost feel like being too open with your spouse is akin to letting yourself go physically just because your married. The purpose of game is to build attraction; if you take it away, attraction fades. Doesn't mean it disappears, but, much like getting overweight kills some sexual desire, so does being "too available" or open. This is all IMHO, but I do think that there's some role for it; much like there's a role for keeping yourself physically sexually attractive.

 

Thank you for the compliment, I'm handling it better here than in person. It's much easier to write about it than it is to have these conversations and really work through the issues with the other person in the room. If nothing else, this is very helpful to get some other viewpoints and help my process the issues.

[Overtaxed]

I just do not get it.

A wife bringing her lover into your house having sex

while you are working is the absolute ultimate in humiliation

and disrespect. The fact that you have accepted this says a great

deal about her and unfortunately it says a great deal about you.

 

I agree. "Accepted" however, isn't the right word. I'm willing to forgive it, yes, because I feel that's the right thing to do. When I make a promise, I do everything I can to uphold it. Will I be able to? I'm not sure. Thankfully, we (or I, depending on what happens) are moving soon, so I can close the chapter on this house and the things that happened here. I couldn't live here anymore long term, I honestly get chills when I walk into the guest bedroom or even look at the door. It's a sickening feeling, and it's one of the things that I've asked her about many times. I'm well aware of my capacity to have an affair and hide it; it's why I guard so much against compromising situations. But, bring a AP back to our home while my wife is traveling for business? No way. It's just not in me. And I can't figure out how it's in her. I honestly think if you met us both, you'd think that she was a total "goody two shoes" and never think she'd even look at another man, let alone bring him back to our marital home. And yes, that's how I saw her as well. If I want to move forward, I will have to forgive this, but, our home and the lies are, by far, the hardest things for me to let go of right now.

[Giacomo67]

i just read your first page and skipped to your last page because I already knew that you had not even half of the truth.... after all this my only thought is why?!....

No kids and still young and attractive... run!

You are nearly 40, I'm nearly 50 with kids and happily divorced.

But for me cheating is a dealbreaker.....

[Bryanp]

Did you ever ask her why not go to a hotel instead of bringing him to your home. I would assume that the only answer would be that she thought that the marriage was completely over and did not care anymore what you thought.

[Overtaxed]

Did you ever ask her why not go to a hotel instead of bringing him to your home. I would assume that the only answer would be that she thought that the marriage was completely over and did not care anymore what you thought.

 

I did. She gave 2 reasons; she knew I'd see the CC bill/cash withdraws, and the AP had the same problem (his wife does the bills).

 

Also, I may not have mentioned this, but we bought a new house about 5 months ago that's being renovated. Her other reason was that "this isn't our house anymore anyway" and she was ready to move on.

 

Both of those answers suck. I do think that she felt the marriage was over; we had openly discussed divorce and although I had no idea WHY we were talking about it, I was making plans for divorcing her and talking through what it would look like. She had found another apartment to live in. So, in many respects, the marriage was over. Thing is, I had no idea why it was over; we'd spend time together and have so much fun together. It was surreal, we'd be talking about divorce and finances and then 10 minutes later, having sex and watching TV holding each other. Or out at dinner laughing like nothing was wrong. I honestly felt like I was losing my mind, which is one of the reasons I was so relieved when I found the evidence of the affair; "Ah, now I know why we're talking about divorce!".

 

I'm sure other's have had a similar experience, but I've never seen any other threads on LS that seem to relate something exactly like this. It was like living with 2 people, one who was my wife, the other some woman who was trying to find somewhere else to live. I still can't understand it, it's like she wanted to blow everything up, but.. Didn't really know why she wanted to blow it up. I know this is a cop out, but I sincerely believe that her coming off the medication (Wellbutrin) had some impact here, her actions and the way she was acting really do remind me of dealing with someone who's mentally ill.

[Overtaxed]

i just read your first page and skipped to your last page because I already knew that you had not even half of the truth.... after all this my only thought is why?!....

No kids and still young and attractive... run!

You are nearly 40, I'm nearly 50 with kids and happily divorced.

But for me cheating is a dealbreaker.....

 

I can't answer this question adequately. I feel like I need to uphold my vows. I feel like she's worth the effort to try to save the marriage. This is way out of character for her and I think she may have been having some sort of breakdown or mental issue. But, honestly, the best answer is probably "I love her". I don't want to burn it all down around her to make myself feel better. I don't want to see her struggle so that I can sit back and laugh at her self-inflicted pain. It's hard to consider hurting someone who you love, even if they hurt you first.

 

There's a breaking point, and I've been there a few times during this process. Last night, she was packing a bag because I knew she was still lying. The lying has to stop; the gaslighting has to stop, and the shifting blame has to stop. But it's moving in the right direction, and that's a positive.

 

Finally, I'm a realist. If I hit "eject" and get with someone else, there's a very good chance this happens again (just looking at statistics, most marriages will have this happen at some point, and frankly, those numbers are probably under reported (for obvious reasons)). If you are going to love someone and marry them, you have to expect that there's a very good chance you'll be where I am at some point in the relationship. Yes, it sucks. Sucks more than anything I've been through before. But, in many ways, this is price we pay for loving other people; there's a very good chance they will hurt you at some point.

[MJJean]

She's starting to show real remorse now; she was saying over and over last night the thing that I've been thinking "I've become everything that I hate in the world". The crying was uncontrollable and I think she's starting to "feel" again and, if nothing else, realize what's staring her in the face. Unprompted this morning (and we haven't talked about it in awhile, so I don't think this was specifically to appease me) she said "I need to find a new therapist, I think I'm getting bad advice".

 

That's not remorse. That's a "oh, woe is me" pity party. She's upset that she got caught and that life as she knows it is either over or changed forever. Trust me, I've been the WW.

 

That said, she may get to the point where she does feel true remorse.

[Overtaxed]

That's not remorse. That's a "oh, woe is me" pity party. She's upset that she got caught and that life as she knows it is either over or changed forever. Trust me, I've been the WW.

 

That said, she may get to the point where she does feel true remorse.

 

What does true remorse look like?

[AnneP]

What does true remorse look like?

 

It looks like someone who has realized the true pain they've inflicted on you, their spouse. It's saying things like: I know I screwed up. Majorly. There are no excuses for my behavior. NONE. I was only thinking of myself and never considered your feelings, our vows, or our marriage. I was selfish.

 

You should know it when she's ready, but I agree that she's spending time feeling sorry for HERSELF, not YOU.

 

Completely agree she's playing victim and throwing a self pity party.

[AnneP]

Hi Anne, you use the word ' Christian' and you say that you are one. What exactly do you imply by that and what is it that other people are to understand about you when you make that claim? I was born a Christian and was baptized as one and yet so many years later while I would still claim I am a Christian if someone asked me ( and by the way I live in a country where Christians are in the minority), I have given up going to church on a regular basis and I find that the type of Christianity that people profess to practice is often repugnant to me.

 

I have to say that I am liberal in my thinking and I have an open mind about most things, which is why I find that the narrow and closed minded thinking that people who call themselves Christians exhibit on a daily basis, is so unpleasant for me. With this background I do not know whether a so called Christian counselor would actually be the ideal person to provide therapy and guidance to Overtaxed and his wife. I may be wrong and I am certainly not implying that all so called Christians are narrow minded or have closed minds. However, those of them who are imbued with a religious fervour are certainly more likely to fall in that category. I must say though, that the points you highlighted in your post make eminent sense and I only hope that things work out well for Overtaxed and his wife. Warm wishes.

 

Hi, I was raised in a Christian home where my parents attended church twice a week. Both of my parents have read the entire Bible more than once. As my parents got older, they both have almost completely stopped going to church and so have I. I don't believe in organized religion because of the hypocrites I see at church. I occasionally read the Bible (not nearly as much as I should) and pray at night. I don't believe attending church is a requirement to be Christian.

 

Many years ago my husband chose a Christian counselor and I know he did so thinking she would excuse his mother's actions. It backfired in his face.

 

I think if OT tells his wife: let's go to a Christian therapist (and I believe they should be a Christian + Clinical Therapist) she will think she can use religion or her faith to wiggle her way out and she will be smacked with a huge dose of reality. Worked for me.

 

Like any other doctor, their profession and what they are trained to do is first. Only difference I've noticed with a Christian counselor is the offer to pray with me.

Edited February 1, 2017 by AnneP

[Giacomo67]

I can't answer this question adequately. I feel like I need to uphold my vows. I feel like she's worth the effort to try to save the marriage. This is way out of character for her and I think she may have been having some sort of breakdown or mental issue. But, honestly, the best answer is probably "I love her". I don't want to burn it all down around her to make myself feel better. I don't want to see her struggle so that I can sit back and laugh at her self-inflicted pain. It's hard to consider hurting someone who you love, even if they hurt you first.

 

There's a breaking point, and I've been there a few times during this process. Last night, she was packing a bag because I knew she was still lying. The lying has to stop; the gaslighting has to stop, and the shifting blame has to stop. But it's moving in the right direction, and that's a positive.

 

Finally, I'm a realist. If I hit "eject" and get with someone else, there's a very good chance this happens again (just looking at statistics, most marriages will have this happen at some point, and frankly, those numbers are probably under reported (for obvious reasons)). If you are going to love someone and marry them, you have to expect that there's a very good chance you'll be where I am at some point in the relationship. Yes, it sucks. Sucks more than anything I've been through before. But, in many ways, this is price we pay for loving other people; there's a very good chance they will hurt you at some point.

 

could it be that YOU thought it was out of character for her, but that deep inside it REALY wasnt? I think you need to stop giving her medical or mental reasons for her cheating and just look at it for what it was: BETRAYAL

I still love my exwife, she is the mother of my children, but no f. way i can get over what she did to me, and if she had done it in our house, she would be canceled from my memories for ever.

I'm not saying that you need to act to see her struggle nor to sit back and laugh at her pain, I'm saying that you need to gtfo of her life for good and start a new life!

Also stop looking at statistics and start living a life that you deserve. You are still to young to think so negative.

Then again, if you are able to forgive and go for R., then maybe you are better then me and mentaly stronger.... all I know is that life is great, and beautiful..... and it's only 1

[road]

For those of you who haven't read my story, wife stepped out with a married coworker, had an EA/PA and we're trying to put the pieces back together.

 

Talking with the wife last night, and she let slip (I know this was a slip) that one of our "good" friends was aware that the relationship had progressed into an EA (but not a PA). I let it roll off me like water off a ducks back, but, at the same time, I thought to myself, this friend, who's honestly her closest friend in the world, just let me sit there and do nothing while the EA turned into a PA and now, has blown 4 lives up. And she's a close friend of ours, she spends all kinds of time at our house with her husband, we were there when her first child was born.. I'm just reeling in some ways, how could you NOT tell me??

 

But then, I got to thinking a little more about my circle of friends. If I was out with them and left with a woman that I just met at the bar to head to a hotel, not a single one of them would make a peep. They would, in fact, probably look at me as a "lucky guy" and be jealous of my "success" in bedding some some easy girl at the bar.

 

How in the heck do you deal with this? Yes, friends are supposed to keep secrets for you. But, this!? And how do you square off the distance between a healthy and unhealthy friendship? Because, IMHO, any friend that would keep a secret like this is no friend of the marriage.

 

I've always been very, very careful not to let friends into my life very far; in many ways, because of stuff like this. I know what guys are like when they get together, it's even if there aren't other women involved, it's a non-stop b*tch session about the wives and the lack of love/sex in their relationship. It's so rare to see a man "happy" when they start relating stories about their relationships I, frankly, just don't want to hear them at all. Because, at best, hearing stories about crappy marriages isn't going to put you in the right frame of mind. At worst, hearing stories about "last weekend at the bar, I met this 20 year old..." is going to set you down a path from which there may be no recovery. And I know women are the same way, I've heard too many "You go girl" stories about women confessing an EA/PA to their friends to think that most women are going to look at them and say what they need to hear "You're going to destroy your life, you're husband loves you, you need to stop this right now and get your head out of your a**".

 

Could also be because I'm a hard core introvert.

 

She is not a friend to the marriage. That woman has to go. NC time.

[merrmeade]

Well, we're making progress. Last night was a knock down/drag out evening. I found something that wasn't related to the affair but provided a ton of insight into a past problem in our relationship and it just turned into a real ripper of a fight. Not to get into a ton of detail (because it doesn't matter) but there was an incident years ago that she was forever using as a wedge in our relationship, I found proof that I wasn't wrong, she really didn't tell me about what we were doing, and that my reaction (which is what she flipped out about) was justified.

 

More shoes dropped; the relationship was more sexual than initially indicated (shocker, right?). There was other stuff going on that I'd never expect from her. And the level of intensity in the fight reached a new level; I told her to "get out" last night because I knew she was lying; she started to pack and then broke down.

 

I think I'm closing in on 80% of the story. She's starting to show real remorse now; she was saying over and over last night the thing that I've been thinking "I've become everything that I hate in the world". The crying was uncontrollable and I think she's starting to "feel" again and, if nothing else, realize what's staring her in the face. Unprompted this morning (and we haven't talked about it in awhile, so I don't think this was specifically to appease me) she said "I need to find a new therapist, I think I'm getting bad advice".

 

You know the funny thing (and maybe this can help other WS's). As she started to tell me the real story (or at least most of it), it was like a wave of relief that washed over me. Sure, it was hurtful to hear; but the lies, those are what's eating me alive right now, not the acts themselves. The fact that she's working so hard to keep that part of herself private and lying, right to my face, over and over again. I know this is affair fog, and perhaps she's even trying to spare me the pain by lying, but.. When they say "The truth will set you free", there's really something to it. She told me some details that I didn't know (and I would have thought would be terribly hurtful) and, they just washed over me with almost no pain at all because, I finally knew she was telling me what actually happened.

 

For the first time, I started to see a glimmer of the person I know/knew in there. She was really ashamed, and it's like it all hit her at once. We're a few weeks out from d-day now, so I guess we're kind of on schedule for this, but, man, living with someone who's lying to you on a nightly basis and trying to "protect" pieces of their relationship with another person is terribly hard.

I don't call the lying and holding back details affair fog. It's pretty much a common phenomenon but it doesn't deserve the gentle interpretation you're giving and don't be too impressed by her shame. You want more than that.

 

The lying is pure and simple cover-up. It's just like everything else that happened: She only told when she was found out. Now, that she is, she doesn't feel any reason why she has to divulge everything.

 

I left for 9 months after I found out. He came to visit me and then went back. I was scheduled to come back after that but I told him he had to write me a letter with all the details he hadn't told me yet. It worked to the extent that he wrote something. (Only I found out later even THAT was trickle truth. He garnished it, white-washed it, and most important left out the essential details. He has never been convinced that he has to do more on his own.) The ONLY way people like this reveal is if they are pushed into a corner and have no other options.

 

I'm not saying this is your wife, but until she feels pain because of what YOU went through it's still just shame and about her. Remorse includes regret and pain because of the injury caused. She needs to feel that she has something to lose and has no other choice.

[merrmeade]

I did. She gave 2 reasons; she knew I'd see the CC bill/cash withdraws, and the AP had the same problem (his wife does the bills).

 

Also, I may not have mentioned this, but we bought a new house about 5 months ago that's being renovated. Her other reason was that "this isn't our house anymore anyway" and she was ready to move on.

 

Both of those answers suck. I do think that she felt the marriage was over; we had openly discussed divorce and although I had no idea WHY we were talking about it, I was making plans for divorcing her and talking through what it would look like. She had found another apartment to live in. So, in many respects, the marriage was over. Thing is, I had no idea why it was over; we'd spend time together and have so much fun together. It was surreal, we'd be talking about divorce and finances and then 10 minutes later, having sex and watching TV holding each other. Or out at dinner laughing like nothing was wrong. I honestly felt like I was losing my mind, which is one of the reasons I was so relieved when I found the evidence of the affair; "Ah, now I know why we're talking about divorce!".

 

I'm sure other's have had a similar experience, but I've never seen any other threads on LS that seem to relate something exactly like this. It was like living with 2 people, one who was my wife, the other some woman who was trying to find somewhere else to live. I still can't understand it, it's like she wanted to blow everything up, but.. Didn't really know why she wanted to blow it up. I know this is a cop out, but I sincerely believe that her coming off the medication (Wellbutrin) had some impact here, her actions and the way she was acting really do remind me of dealing with someone who's mentally ill.

I just wanted to weigh on in this explanation, ot. What I see that you're explaining here is not why you don't want to abandon HER, but why you feel the need to continue to live by your own values. In other words, your staying is more about your own integrity and doing what you feel deeply is right. There are certain things you don't feel you could do because of the way you are wired / were brought up. I assert that it's not really because of your vow to her as much as it's your vow and your sense of what's right.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Merrmeade and Giacomo, to me it seems that very early on Overtaxed had decided that he was NOT going to divorce his wife regardless of what she had done and whether he knew the actual and full details or not. In other words he was giving her a blanket pass. In reading through the entirety of this thread I have seen that things which would have been deal breakers to most men have been swept under the rug by OT and explained away by saying that he, himself is not overly concerned about a particular aspect because of his own thinking on the subject and also by making excuses on behalf of his wife. For example, any other man would find it unforgiveable if his wife had brought her lover home to have a tryst while he was away on business. However OT is only mildly exercised by this fact and has brushed it aside by saying that they will be shortly moving away( to a new house) so it won't really sit heavy with him. Contrast this with the action Alive Again took when he found out that his wife had been trysting with her lover in their bed at home. He took the the whole paraphernalia out into the back yard and set it on fire.

 

If you read through the initial posts you will see that there is a significant degree of incompatibility between OT and his wife. As I said in one of my previous posts, OT would like to be joined at the hip to his wife whereas she would like to traipse away to spend time with friends and family, something he does not like doing. Apart from that there are many other points of dissonance in their relationship, the big elephant in the room being her strong desire to conceive and bear a child whereas he does not want kids at all. I have remained perplexed with the complete divergence of their personalities on the one hand and OT's rigid desire to continue to stick by his wife almost against her wishes. Maybe, since we are outsiders and do not have a handle on their situation at a personal level, we are not able to comprehend something which may appear very simple and logical for OT. I do hope for his sake that he is right and we are wrong. However I think it is infructuous for us to advise him about what he should do or how he should perceive things. He seems clear enough in his mind as to what he wants to do and nothing anyone here says is going to change his mind. In a way that is good as, at the least he is not wavering in what he wants to do and appears to be quite clear headed. Lets wish him all the best as he moves forward and stop questioning his decisions and thought process. Warm wishes.

[Overtaxed]

Just a guy,

 

Thank you for the post; I certainly see some of myself in it!

 

I would like to discuss a few points though. Did I make the decision I wasn't going to D regardless of what she'd done? Yes, I had, but that's not saying that I am not willing to D. I watched her pack a bag 2 nights ago, not because of what she'd done, but because she was lying. In my eyes, nothing can change what happened, but, lying today as we try to fix this is going to result in her spending time in a hotel going through D paperwork. And she almost got there before the truth really started to come out. I will not accept anything but the full details, but, unless there's something truly unexpected in those full details, I'm not going to D her over her actions (remember, I already know most of the details from the electronic recon on phones/computers/etc).

 

Don't misread my comments as "mildly upset" by the fact that she brought him back to our home. I'm furious. It's one of the reasons that I think she's having some sort of mental issue. I said to her the other night, "What is wrong with you" as we were talking many times. This was obviously a marriage exit type affair, and while she provided some excuses, that's what they were. Excuses. I only mention that I'm moving soon as the reason I'm not burning the bedroom (or the whole house) down, I know I won't have to walk by that room any more and think about what happened there. But yes, it sits very heavy with me; I'm just not one to express my emotions to others very much, even in an anon forum.

 

I am clear in my mind that I want to R. I'm just not sure that I'll be able to do it (and, to your point, should do it because of the basic incompatibility in our relationship). My rigid desire to stay with her is because, I believe that this is what marriage is. Yes, I know, this is grounds for divorce, but I also know that I promised to stand by her and intend to honor that promise, even if she didn't. And, because of my past history, the sex really doesn't mean much to me; as I said before, it's the lies and deceit that are burning me up inside.

 

All that said, I'm obviously in a fog of my wife's making right now. I "think" I know what I want to do, but the posts telling me "you're crazy" are appreciated and helpful. So, please don't stop providing other viewpoints; maybe I am crazy and she needs to go. I know for some men that would be the only answer. And, honestly, if you'd asked me years ago, I'd say that's my only answer as well. I think the thing that keeps me holding on is that our relationship dynamic (when this wasn't in the picture) is like nothing else I've ever seen in my adult life. We really as best friends, all of our friends comment on our marriage, even my guy friends tell me they are jealous of what we have. I know that's not important (that other people think that), but it is very important that I think that (and my wife does as well, when she's not in the fog, she's said as much to me many times).

[Just a Guy]

Hi Overtaxed, thanks for your response clarifying on some of the points I raised. As I said we do NOT know your personal dynamics and every human being and every couple is different in details while being similar in a generic manner. You have your reasons to reconcile with your wife and no one on this board can tell what you should or should not do. My point is that, as I said, early on I got the idea that you were going to reconcile and right through your thread your posts indicated no change in your decision or perspective. A lot of the good folk on here have been trying to convince you to change your mind about your wife and that you should divorce her as she is still not showing true remorse.

 

I think it makes no sense to do that once it is clear in which direction you are going. This last post of yours makes things amply clear so I guess most folks should now just lay off and only offer advice which is compatible with your decision to help you get through this difficult time. At the end of the line, you know best what your situation is and you know your wife intimately enough to know her thought process. Yes this was something unexpected and unforeseen and maybe even she could not see it for what it was so how could you be expected to be wise to her choices and actions? If she is coming around and when she does realize the full extent of her betrayal of you, her vows, her marriage and herself included, I think true remorse will well up in her she will be on her knees asking for your forgiveness and be ready to do the heavy lifting so necessary from her end to repair and heal the relationship which she has ravaged so savagely. Hope this helps in clarifying things from my point of view. Warm wishes.

[Overtaxed]

As mentioned in an earlier post, I think I've finally gotten very close to a full disclosure of the events leading up to and inside the affair. As other posters had suggested, there was more sexual contact than initially disclosed, including one thing that we've never done (location, not an actual sexual act). Sex a few times in a single day was one of the biggies that I knew about already and she had not disclosed, she finally came clean about this during the "get out" discussion.

 

It was interesting to hear her talk about how she felt and what she was thinking during the A. I asked her about why it was so sexual, her answer was also unexpected; she was trying to build the connection sexually and, in her words, not succeeding. In the "woe is me" category, she said that she feels broken (sexually), she just doesn't connect with people that way. I believe this, it's been a constant topic of discussion in our relationship and, after much reading, it's not all that uncommon; it seems that a lot of women (and some men) really don't "connect" in a sexual manner. Yes, they enjoy it, but it doesn't do for them what it does for me. The 5 Love Languages laid this out well, my language is physical touch, hers is not (words of affirmation).

 

Hearing her talk about the sex was also interesting, she wasn't getting as much as I would have thought from it. She said the first time was pretty amazing, but, after that, it tapered off quickly and she said she quickly fell back into the pattern that we have had for years (having sex because I want it, not because she does). Also interesting, she didn't have many orgasms; I was really surprised by this because, honestly, she's very easy to "get off" (sorry for the blunt language) compared to most other women I've been with. I was further surprised because, when I imagine myself having an affair, I would expect the sex to be "off the charts"; there's no way a long term partner can compete with the thrill/new/danger/etc of extramarital sex, no matter how good they are in bed. But it sounds like, at least for my wife, that faded really quickly (she said that by the 3rd time, she was "going through the motions").

 

Not as much "wild monkey sex" as I was prepared to hear; and, because I know the AP, I'm not all that surprised. I said it in one of my earlier posts, but she picked someone who I just find totally non-threatening sexually. He's a bit of a "dweeb" in all honestly, not good looking, not physically imposing, and not much of a "decision maker" (other than, of course, his penchant for bedding women outside of his marriage). My wife was/is way above his league; another thing that totally shocked me when I found out. I thought women typically "cheated up" and men "cheated around". This was certainly a "cheat around" type relationship; I struggle to find a single thing about him where I don't favorably compare beyond his constant use of words of affirmation to make my wife feel loved. Blast away if you like, but, in my eyes; it's true, he has far less to offer than I do.

 

As I mentioned before, I think I'm really closing in on full disclosure because she's now told me just about everything that I already knew from the electronic surveillance. I'm sure there's a bit more, and I'm going to keep asking questions sporadically to make sure everything lines up, but, IMHO, she's come as clean as you can expect at this point from d-day.

 

Now comes the hard part; trying to forgive. Most of that is really going to depend on her; if she continues as she has been, I'm not sure we'll get there. But things are changing. She's starting to read a lot more about how to fix this, what changes need to happen, books on why this happened and how to keep yourself out of this situation in the future. She's starting to ask me to look at things with her in books to get my opinion and ask if this would or would have helped. I see these as positive steps. She's also doing a lot less gaslighting, especially after the bomb that dropped the other night (my discovery of an e-mail from years ago that showed her that something she'd been blaming me for (and was a very serious issue in our relationship) was, in fact, not my fault). I think she's starting to see what she's done, not just in the affair, but to our marriage in general and the way she'd slowly turned me into the enemy.