Low sex partner in affair. Fresh d-day

[Cephalopod]

She may have been pure and sweet at one time, but lust and sin corrupt. Read the story of King David, then compare his life and failures to your wife's.

[oldshirt]

He wasn't a pastor, just your typical bible quoting schmuck holding himself out as a spiritual leader to others. Just wanted to set the record straight.

 

I see what you're saying, and what I had in my head was absolutely an illusion/delusion while the A was ongoing. But what about the 10+ years before that? Was it all an illusion? That's the part I don't know how to reconcile; her nature before the A gave me no pause, no reason to consider she might do something like this. So, what was the "real" her, the person I knew before, the person she was in the A, or the person she is now?

 

How do you get the objectivity? I know she's a cheater and liar. I know it intellectually, but I can't square that with the person she's shown me to be. She's obviously capable of it, she did it. But how do you put these two completely separate images of a person together? I can't believe that she's been lying about who she is for our entire relationship, frankly, she's not good at lying, even during the A, if we hadn't been talking about D, I would have known something was up, her behavior was just too "off". So I struggle thinking the "A her" was the real her and the person I knew before that was a fake.

 

 

It's just like a car. It's shiny, it smells nice, it runs great.

 

Like all things it needs regular maintenance and periodic tune ups, but with due diligence, it's keeps running smooth and dependably.

 

Then one day the alternator goes out. It gets replaced and back on the road. Then the head gasket goes bad and leaks antifreeze into the engine, but $1000 later it's one the road again.

 

And then one day it just plain craps out and your mechanic says you can either cut your losses and junk it to the salvage yard for $500 and get a new car, or you can overhaul it with a returned engine and drivetrain and hope to get another 100,000 miles out of it, but knowing it will never be the same and it will always be one gizmo after another that will fall out and need to be replaced.

 

The decision you have to make is whether to put in the time and effort to continually work on it and forever have a lower level of performance and reliability, or watch it hauled away to the salvage yard and then put in the time and full expense of a new car and starting over.

 

That is where you are right now. Do you put in a lot of work and considerable expense to keep the old gal on the road, knowing it will never be smooth and perfect again.

 

Or do you watch with lament as she's hauled away and you are faced with the time and expense of starting anew.

[oldshirt]

....either way, your history is not a fraud or fake or imaginary.

 

Just like the many years of good service that you got out of a good car, you had many years of good times and a good marriage. You owned that and it was something you got a lot of good miles out of.

 

But let's not glorify it or glamorize it. You had a lot of fundamental incopatibilities and a lot of frustrations and dissatisfactions.

 

You've had a lackluster Sexlife all along. That will never improve and will likely continue to degrade now that infidelity is in the mix and menopause is on the horizon ahead.

 

You have vastly differing spiritual beliefs, personality temperments and a gross mismatch of something as foundational as child rearing.

 

I hate to rewrite your history for you, but on paper, you two never should have married in the first place.

 

This could be your ticket out and your ticket to find others that are a much better fundamental match.

 

But again, either way, your first ten years were yours and this does not negate that or take that away. You own your past.

 

Now it's just a matter or deciding what you want for your future.

[Just a Guy]

Hi OT, although your dilemma may be very real to you, looked at objectively, it is quite simple and straightforward. Your wife may have been a saint before her affair and had she continued down that road she would still be the same simple loving wife that you knew. However, once she stepped across the line and cheated, her character forever changed. She adopted all those characteristics that make for a successful cheater and thereby she changed from that sweet and simple loving wife into someone you cannot recognize. However, this is the new her. She can never turn back time and go back to her previous persona. She would have to go through a divine purification process to get back to where she was even assuming she wants to go through such a process. It is like someone who is an upright member of society who due to whatever reason, murders someone. He can never go back to being the person he was. He will always have this albatross hanging around his neck much as your wife will always have hers hanging around her neck. So you have to accept her for the person she is today and not some fantasy woman from the past with an unblemished record.

 

For some time I have been wanting to ask you a question and which is that while we all know that you are leaning in the direction of reconciling with your wife do you really think she is equally interested in reconciling with you on your terms? Oh she may be giving off vibes that she wants to reconcile with you but it may be on her terms and not yours and her terms may be completely unacceptable to you. I would certainly like to know what you have to say to this. My own thinking is that she may be quite lukewarm to the idea. I may be wrong and quite frankly you are the man in the driver's seat and would be the best person to know which way the wind is blowing. Anyway, whatever happens I wish you the very best in your endeavour. Warm wishes.

[Overtaxed]

Hi OT, although your dilemma may be very real to you, looked at objectively, it is quite simple and straightforward. Your wife may have been a saint before her affair and had she continued down that road she would still be the same simple loving wife that you knew. However, once she stepped across the line and cheated, her character forever changed. She adopted all those characteristics that make for a successful cheater and thereby she changed from that sweet and simple loving wife into someone you cannot recognize. However, this is the new her. She can never turn back time and go back to her previous persona. She would have to go through a divine purification process to get back to where she was even assuming she wants to go through such a process. It is like someone who is an upright member of society who due to whatever reason, murders someone. He can never go back to being the person he was. He will always have this albatross hanging around his neck much as your wife will always have hers hanging around her neck. So you have to accept her for the person she is today and not some fantasy woman from the past with an unblemished record.

 

For some time I have been wanting to ask you a question and which is that while we all know that you are leaning in the direction of reconciling with your wife do you really think she is equally interested in reconciling with you on your terms? Oh she may be giving off vibes that she wants to reconcile with you but it may be on her terms and not yours and her terms may be completely unacceptable to you. I would certainly like to know what you have to say to this. My own thinking is that she may be quite lukewarm to the idea. I may be wrong and quite frankly you are the man in the driver's seat and would be the best person to know which way the wind is blowing. Anyway, whatever happens I wish you the very best in your endeavour. Warm wishes.

 

Thank you for the warm wishes, I do appreciate it!

 

Does she want to R? She says she does. She's doing things that make me think she does. It's not exactly "on my terms", I didn't give her a list of how things need to be to R or anything like that. We're both making changes to be more like the other person needs/wants.

 

As to her being lukewarm to the idea; I hope not. Man, do I hope not. Just leave, please, just do us both a huge favor and leave! It's why I wanted to make it so easy/clean for her and set aside the prenup provisions, if you want out, GO. If you're not sure, GO. But, if you made a mistake and want what we used to have, I'm willing to work to get that back. That's what she's indicated, so that's the path we're going down. But I do wonder; this was an exit affair, but the AP was NEVER going to really ask her to leave with him. So I don't know what would have happened, I supposed we'd get a D, and she'd be the other woman until his wife found out, then she'd lose her job and be alone? IDK, I really don't. Didn't seem like there was much of a "plan" here, that's for sure.

 

To the first part of your post, I'm not sure I believe that entirely. Yes, what she did will always be a part of her. Just like murdering someone will always be a part of you. But does it change your core character beyond knowing that you're capable of murder/cheating? If you're an upstanding guy and you come home, find your wife in bed with another man and shoot him dead, does that mean that all of the past goes away? I'm not sure it does. It means you're capable of it, yes, no doubt about it.

 

But, and maybe this is my general negative view of people, but, who isn't capable of it? I know I could cheat if I didn't carefully control the situation. Just like I know I could murder someone in a fit of rage. But, and this is the important thing; I think we all could. I think that describes just about every person alive if they are truly honest with themselves. Sure, it takes more provocation to get some people to do it compared to others; there's guy walking around who will kill you for the 10 bucks you have in your wallet, there's other guys who'd kill you for sleeping with their wife, and there's other guys who'd only do it if you held a gun to their newborn's head. But I believe that there's a point where we'd all do it. And I think the same thing about cheating; sure, most BS's here say never. But I submit that's not the real answer, it's situational. And if the situation is dire enough, I think most people would find themselves doing it. Big note here, the situation between my W and I was NOT by any stretch of the imagination, that dire! Cheating when you have a disagreement over kids and some emotional distance between you because of life circumstances is NOT the same as cheating when you're husband is an abusive alcoholic who's cheating himself and beating you ever night. I'm sorry, it's just not, at least not in my eyes.

 

But, all that said, yes, she can do it. And she did. And I didn't think she could, not in this situation anyway. It is hard to reconcile, but I'm not sure it changes, as you lay out, who she fundamentally is. It does, however, change how much it takes to get her to cheat (not as much as I thought), that's for sure.

[Weezy1973]

I see what you're saying, and what I had in my head was absolutely an illusion/delusion while the A was ongoing. But what about the 10+ years before that? Was it all an illusion? That's the part I don't know how to reconcile; her nature before the A gave me no pause, no reason to consider she might do something like this. So, what was the "real" her, the person I knew before, the person she was in the A, or the person she is now?

 

There is no real her. That's the point I was making before. She has no sense of self; no core values. No core. If how you described her childhood is accurate it is likely that she believes that love is something that is earned rather than something that is given freely just for being.

 

So she is drawn to bad boys, because they tell her what she needs to do to feel loved (almost always sexual in nature). But she doesn't feel loved.

 

So she gets together with you and tries to be the wife / partner you want her to be because that will make her feel loved. But she doesn't feel loved.

 

And then she tries to be whatever her friends and family need her to be to try to feel loved. But she doesn't feel loved.

 

And finally she succumbs to the temptation of the AP as he promises that she will feel loved. But again, she doesn't feel loved.

 

This all stems from childhood trauma. You can't fix her, it runs deep. She can only fix herself. I know you are naturally a problem solver, but this is not one you can solve.

 

 

How do you get the objectivity? I know she's a cheater and liar. I know it intellectually, but I can't square that with the person she's shown me to be. She's obviously capable of it, she did it. But how do you put these two completely separate images of a person together?

 

You do it by realizing that there is no "person" there. She has no sense of self. She can be whatever she feels other people want her to be in an effort to feel loved.

 

I can't believe that she's been lying about who she is for our entire relationship, frankly, she's not good at lying, even during the A, if we hadn't been talking about D, I would have known something was up, her behavior was just too "off". So I struggle thinking the "A her" was the real her and the person I knew before that was a fake.

 

She hasn't been lying. There is no "real" her. Only the her she thought you wanted her to be.

[wmacbride]

LOL, thanks for that, I needed that smile!

 

Here's crossing my fingers, maybe it just took this kind of blow up for my wife to find her inner drive for sex.

 

Am I correct that your wife has endometriosis? From what I understand, that can be incredibly painful. The uterine ling forms outside of where it should, and is shed each month, just like the res. the only problem is that it bleeds into the body, and can be very painful. I've even heard women describe it as excruciating and like a punch in the gut. Some will even have a hysterectomy to stop the pain.

 

It can flare down for a couple of weeks at a time, but the flare ups are horrid.

[wmacbride]

op,

you're getting lots of good advice on here, but one thing to keep in mind.

 

If you reconcile, a big piece of it is going to be accepting that you can't change that your wife cheated. It also means accepting that she, just like all of is, is a flawed individual.

 

Also, whatever else you do, be true to yourself. Advice from strangers can be really helpful, but ultimately, you are the one who has to live with it.

[Just a Guy]

Hi OT, thanks for responding and clarifying your thought process. In the final analysis, as wmacbride said irrespective of what we on the forum tell you, it is what you yourself believe that matters and is your reality. As wmac said be true to yourself because, in the end you have to live with yourself and your choices. Remember that your choices will lead you, with the passage of time, to where you find yourself in the future. Once a choice is made it cannot be undone and the consequences that flow from it will have to be borne and lived with, cheerfully and without regret, down the line. So make your choices carefully while you still have that option.

 

Old shirt your analogy about the car gels with me. What you were talking about translates to what in the military is referred to as BER, that stands for Beyond Economic Repair. That is the point at which a car or piece of equipment is junked and replaced with something new. However, in the case of Human Beings I don't really think that analogy can be made. Humans remain under repair all their lives and never really become BER until they pass away. Just a thought.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Just a Guy

[oldshirt]

Old shirt your analogy about the car gels with me. What you were talking about translates to what in the military is referred to as BER, that stands for Beyond Economic Repair. That is the point at which a car or piece of equipment is junked and replaced with something new. However, in the case of Human Beings I don't really think that analogy can be made. Humans remain under repair all their lives and never really become BER until they pass away. Just a thought.

 

It may not be a pure economic decision based solely on the numbers though.

 

It still comes down to if you want to do the repair work and live with the results or not vs whether you want to put in the time and initial expense of getting a new one.

 

For some people infidelity is just simply a deal breaker and nothing else matters. For others, it's not that big a deal and they can look the other way and keep on truck'n.

 

My point was there comes a time when the time, cost and effort to keep a marriage breathing becomes huge and it will never be quite the same afterwards.

 

For some people that is too big of a cost for too little benefit.

 

Others may see it differently and think the cost is worthwhile.

 

Some of us questioning the cost-benefit of trying to keep this marriage alive, but it's not our spreadsheet that matters. It's Overtaxed' spreadsheet that matters, and its his time and his dime and in the end it will be him that has to live with the results.

[AnneP]

Am I correct that your wife has endometriosis? From what I understand, that can be incredibly painful. The uterine ling forms outside of where it should, and is shed each month, just like the res. the only problem is that it bleeds into the body, and can be very painful. I've even heard women describe it as excruciating and like a punch in the gut. Some will even have a hysterectomy to stop the pain.

 

It can flare down for a couple of weeks at a time, but the flare ups are horrid.

 

These days you can have a procedure done called Endometrial Ablation and that burns the uterus lining resulting in complete loss of monthly cycles or very light cycles. It also makes you unable to carry a baby. It's a better alternative than a hysterectomy as you have no hormonal changes.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Oldshirt, I am in complete agreement with you. I only thought that comparing a human being to a machine was a bit out of the ordinary. As I said in my previous post, OT's reality is what he perceives it to be. Weay offer our views but he is the man wearing the shoe and knows where it pinches. What I said about choices holds good. Once you make a choice and act on it, you cannot undo it and years later, where you find yourself in life is exactly where your series of choices have placed you. If it is a good place you know you made the right choices, but if you find yourself in a not so good place then you know your choices were not good ones. However, you cannot do anything about it by then and just have to grin and bear it. I hope for OT's sake that he makes the right choices going forward but that decision is going to be his and his alone. Whatever it is he should give everything about his case due consideration and not act in haste. Also, I think that he should keep emotions out of his decision making process. That's just the way I think and I am not infallible. Warm wishes all around.

[Chaparral]

I have read about a poll that said 70 % of the people would have an affair if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Why? Because it would be exciting and fun. About half of that number, men and women,35%, do have affairs. Most people would do the wrong if conditions were right, not just cheating.

 

Remember the joke about the business man that offered the beautiful woman a million dollars for sex. She said yes. He said would you have sex with me for $100 dollars and indignantly replied "what kind of woman do you think I am?" He replied, we've already determined that. Now we're only negotiating a price.

 

Your wife is more vulnerable than most. She is a woman that doesn't have a child and can't have one. Her biological prime directive has been thwarted. She's broken. I'm guessing for a woman that would be almost as bad or worse than losing a child.

I hope you have the wisdom to work this out.

Good luck

[merrmeade]

I have read about a poll that said 70 % of the people would have an affair if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Why? Because it would be exciting and fun. About half of that number, men and women,35%, do have affairs. Most people would do the wrong if conditions were right, not just cheating.

 

Remember the joke about the business man that offered the beautiful woman a million dollars for sex. She said yes. He said would you have sex with me for $100 dollars and indignantly replied "what kind of woman do you think I am?" He replied, we've already determined that. Now we're only negotiating a price.

 

Your wife is more vulnerable than most. She is a woman that doesn't have a child and can't have one. Her biological prime directive has been thwarted. She's broken. I'm guessing for a woman that would be almost as bad or worse than losing a child.

I hope you have the wisdom to work this out.

Good luck

But it also seems to me - from what I've read here - and what happened in my situation - that sometimes potential cheaters either let themselves be vulnerable or they already are because they've given up on the marriage. That is, they are vulnerable because they've lost hope about something AND they're not working at fixing it. That can also mean that they then work up to more complex delusional thinking.

 

I think the only way I'd allow myself to cross that line would be if I really felt the marriage and my husband were hopeless and I had no way to fix it (true or not: It's what I felt). Whether the hopelessness is real or cultivated, I think it's needed in order to bypass personal values and moral restraints.

 

OT's wife was repressed somehow, no libido. Sounds like there was some element of depression as well, right? Hadn't she given up in some ways?

 

Also in a case like that, seems like the affair mentality would be the opposite of the dullness she'd been feeling with all the novelty, excitement and flattery from the AP.

[Overtaxed]

But it also seems to me - from what I've read here - and what happened in my situation - that sometimes potential cheaters either let themselves be vulnerable or they already are because they've given up on the marriage. That is, they are vulnerable because they've lost hope about something AND they're not working at fixing it. That can also mean that they then work up to more complex delusional thinking.

 

I think the only way I'd allow myself to cross that line would be if I really felt the marriage and my husband were hopeless and I had no way to fix it (true or not: It's what I felt). Whether the hopelessness is real or cultivated, I think it's needed in order to bypass personal values and moral restraints.

 

OT's wife was repressed somehow, no libido. Sounds like there was some element of depression as well, right? Hadn't she given up in some ways?

 

Also in a case like that, seems like the affair mentality would be the opposite of the dullness she'd been feeling with all the novelty, excitement and flattery from the AP.

 

I actually looked at your sign up date/other posts to make sure you weren't my wife. Yes, I'm serious. Because this is nearly word for word, what she said to me. She'd given up on our marriage, she told me that. Now, she blamed me for that (because I was talking D with her in a dispassionate and detached manner, not because I didn't care, but because I thought that's what she wanted and didn't see how getting emotional would help the situation) which is complete BS, anyone could see I was working at our marriage and trying to fix it, I was just failing. And she's said she sees that now, but she "felt" the marriage was over and that's how she gave herself permission to do this. She also said that she felt hopeless and that this (the A) was her way of dealing with that.

 

Now, all of this is bull, none of these things is really true. But as you correctly pointed out, it's how she felt and how she justified it. IDK, a huge part of me wants the cause to be something tangible "Because you won't do IVF" or even "Because I was h*rny and you were out of town", but, sadly, I don't think that's ever going to be the case here. Which makes R a bit more difficult because, I'm not really sure how I know to keep her from feeling that way again.

 

Also, just a quick addition, the wife said to me, unprompted last night that she was starting to feel like herself again. After the A blew up, she went back on anti-depressants, and she said her mind was quieting down and she was starting to feel more "clear" again. I can see it in her too, she's laughing more and being more her "old self" than I'd seen in a long time. Is it the drugs or the end of the A that's caused the change? I don't know, and I'm sure it's some combination of both. But, the more that I think back and the more the talk with her and think about it, I do think that the withdraw from the AD's had some role in this, perhaps a significant role. She was acting like a different person during the A, and continued to act like a different person after D-day. She's finally starting to act like my wife again, she's talking to me about it without prompting now and sometimes just crying and saying "I'm so sorry". I can see the guilt on her face when we talk about it where, in the beginning, all I saw was "cold". And our conversations recently (last week or so) have been productive. She's been forthcoming and non-evasive.

 

She's also starting to make plans for the future that involve both of us. We're moving to our new house in a few weeks, and she seems to have moved from "indifferent" (during and directly after the A) to talking about it non-stop and "I can't wait to go" (neither can I, I'm not showing it all the time, but I can't stand being in this home after what happened here). She told me her car "needs to go" (she had sex with the AP in it) even though she's in love with it (she didn't say this, I know it) and it's her dream car. I honestly wasn't sure if I wanted to get rid of it and never said "it's got to go" but her saying that to me means she does seem to be starting to "get it".

 

It's been a pretty good week, some hard conversations (not sure I'd call them fights, just passionate and deep conversations), some intimate time together, and more shared laughs than we've had in a very long time. She also scheduled our first MC session for next week, again, unprompted, another thing I'm viewing as a positive sign. We only have a few weeks left in this state, but her scheduling it despite that fact does seem to indicate to me that she's starting to "pull out all the stops" in seeking help.

[AnneP]

OT: you know I haven't been one to make any excuses for your wife, however it is a scientific fact that coming off A/D can and sometimes does make people do very irrational and out of character things. I'm not excusing what she did, just pointing out that could be a reason she made poor choices.

 

Is there a reason she abruptly stopped the A/D? I believe you said she was on Wellbutrin? How long has she been on this medication?

 

I'm glad that she's feeling like her old self. Hopefully she will start to show real remorse for what she's done to you and your marriage.

[Overtaxed]

OT: you know I haven't been one to make any excuses for your wife, however it is a scientific fact that coming off A/D can and sometimes does make people do very irrational and out of character things. I'm not excusing what she did, just pointing out that could be a reason she made poor choices.

 

Is there a reason she abruptly stopped the A/D? I believe you said she was on Wellbutrin? How long has she been on this medication?

 

I'm glad that she's feeling like her old self. Hopefully she will start to show real remorse for what she's done to you and your marriage.

 

It was Wellbutrin; and she didn't just stop, but I don't think her IC was "on the ball" or perhaps my wife wasn't honest with how she was dealing with it. The did tell the IC she was stopping though, and did wean off over the course of ~1 month, IIRC.

 

She'd been on the medication (not specifically Wellbutrin, but an AD) since we met. So, ~15 years. When we met, she was coming out of a terrible relationship; cheating, lying, and, believe it or not, even more than that. Just horrible. She started on A/D's around that time, so I've never known her off A/Ds.

 

The reason she stopped is because she felt "weak" (in her words) because she needed medication and she complained that it made her feel slow/foggy. IDK how much of the 2nd is true, she's now said the opposite to me (I can control my emotions again, I feel clear, etc) being back on. The first part, was absolutely true, she takes a lot of pride in being "strong", working very hard at everything she does, and excelling at them. Work, sports, her appearance, her relationships with other people.. She want's to be the "best" and I think that she felt that A/D's were a "crutch" and made her feel weak/broken/less then. I do want to say, I NEVER saw it that way, I was on them for years as a young man, and I know they help. I never tried to get her to come off them, but I did support her decision to stop.

 

To your first point, I want to be careful not to ascribe too much to it, but, to say that it's not somewhat relevant to figuring out the "why" is also not a reasonable stance to take. I do think it played into things. Perhaps she came off and got really depressed and was looking for "anything" to take her out of it. Or she was manic (which, hearing her description of it, is what it sounded like to me). Just like me going out, getting fall down drunk and then sleeping with another woman; it doesn't excuse the behavior, but it does explain it to a certain extent. And I think that might be what's going on here to some extent.

 

Thank you, we are stringing together good days here with some regularity and she does seem to be "coming back" emotionally. It's good to see, and it's letting me focus more on me; what do I want, how do I feel, and what do I need to move forward.

[AnneP]

The longer one uses an A/D, the worse it is coming off. It seems like she needs to be on this. Maybe you can encourage her to continue this medication (if it's working for her) and explain to her it's not a weakness or a crutch.

 

You could always tell her: It's not your fault. You cannot control the fact that there is a chemical imbalance in your brain...just like if you were to develop MS, Parkinson's, or Osteoporosis, you would have no control over that. Take the medication to treat the illness.

[Overtaxed]

The longer one uses an A/D, the worse it is coming off. It seems like she needs to be on this. Maybe you can encourage her to continue this medication (if it's working for her) and explain to her it's not a weakness or a crutch.

 

You could always tell her: It's not your fault. You cannot control the fact that there is a chemical imbalance in your brain...just like if you were to develop MS, Parkinson's, or Osteoporosis, you would have no control over that. Take the medication to treat the illness.

 

I've said pretty much exactly that to her. If you had diabetes, insulin would be necessary to be able to live, does that make you weak? Of course not, it's a chemical imbalance (or lack of ability to make a chemical) that's corrected by drugs. Is it weak that I take Advil every day because of a back injury? Or course not, it lets me lead a better life because I'm not in pain. And I used to take A/D's myself, I never felt it was weak then, it helped me and I was grateful the drugs were available!

 

I am encouraging her to continue without saying it directly. I don't want to focus too much on it, so I'm not saying "You're medication is helping", I'm saying "You seem much happier" or "More focused" rather than attributing it to the meds. And it's true, she does seem better. It's hard to know how much is the medication, how much of it is ending the A/lying, how much of it is changes I've made and changes she's made. But, hey, end of the day, she DOES seem much happier and more centered. She seems more sure of herself and what she wants. And she's acting more confident and "clear" when I talk to her. Her emotions are back to a large degree. I know this isn't all (or probably even mostly) the medication, but, if it's helping, I'd never tell her to stop taking it; I've always been a fan of "if there's a pill that helps, TAKE IT!".

[elaine567]

It may be her medication kicking in and I hope so, for your sake, but I think she is better as you are moving home. Bigger better place and she sees a fresh start ahead and she is probably putting all the other issues on hold at the moment...

Once settled in and it all either does not live up to her expectations or she gets bared or she gets unhappy again with her lot, then you may be back to stage one.

 

If there was not the excitement of the move imminent then I would agree that this is a great sign but...

[Overtaxed]

It may be her medication kicking in and I hope so, for your sake, but I think she is better as you are moving home. Bigger better place and she sees a fresh start ahead and she is probably putting all the other issues on hold at the moment...

Once settled in and it all either does not live up to her expectations or she gets bared or she gets unhappy again with her lot, then you may be back to stage one.

 

If there was not the excitement of the move imminent then I would agree that this is a great sign but...

 

Crossing my fingers. Not a lot else I can do other than look at what's in front of me and try to take it at face value. I need a divining rod.

 

I know the issue of children is going to come back around, so if that's the fundamental problem (which I think it is), we'll be revisiting that in the future. But, and I know people here think I'm off my rocker, we really did have a very good marriage before this blew up. Did she have unmet needs? Yes, she did. Did I? Yes, I did. But they weren't awful, I see people every day in marriages that are far less happy than ours was and they seem to move through it. And my wife is starting to say that too; "why did I think it was so bad". To which I can only say "I don't know". I don't think she really did think it was that bad until the AP entered the picture, then it became "awful" as a justification for what she was doing. But, without an AP there (like, for me), I really continue to wonder, because, it really wasn't that bad. And there were so many exciting and new things that she'd always wanted coming together, it still doesn't make sense. Like someone quitting their job that pays 50K a year 6 months before they are about to get a million dollar retirement package. When all they'd been talking about was that retirement package. It just didn't, and still doesn't make sense. I suspect it never will.

 

BTW, we're not moving home. We're moving closer to home, but it's still a very long drive (or relatively short plane ride) from "home" for both of us. We're moving to the country, which is what she's always wanted, and closer to the mountains, which is something we both really wanted (we both enjoy hiking/climbing).

[aliveagain]

Some people are just psychologically wired to betray those who love them. These are often people that feel betrayed themselves and therefore able to identify with the aggressor pursuing them. Her conscious intent may have been to not hurt you(even though she knows it is wrong she still never expected to get caught) but it may well have been her unconscious motivation. These people are much more prepared to disrupt their lives in search of reparation for what they believe are past wrongs then most of us. They are also unwilling to fully love someone(including a husband)because it is too much of a risk for them. She will need a lot of professional help and if wanting children is at the root of this doing so at this time would be a mistake. It's like she just shot herself in the foot, maybe she needed another reason to blame as to why you can't have children.

[Overtaxed]

Some people are just psychologically wired to betray those who love them. These are often people that feel betrayed themselves and therefore able to identify with the aggressor pursuing them. Her conscious intent may have been to not hurt you(even though she knows it is wrong she still never expected to get caught) but it may well have been her unconscious motivation. These people are much more prepared to disrupt their lives in search of reparation for what they believe are past wrongs then most of us. They are also unwilling to fully love someone(including a husband)because it is too much of a risk for them. She will need a lot of professional help and if wanting children is at the root of this doing so at this time would be a mistake. It's like she just shot herself in the foot, maybe she needed another reason to blame as to why you can't have children.

 

I've thought the last part several times myself. I think I mentioned this before, but there's a lot of pressure in her family to have children. "Family" is very important to them, be that time with their kids, their kids having kids, relationships with the spouses, etc. So I know she feels somewhere between significant and immense pressure from her family (and quite it bit from her peer group as well) to have children. And don't take this to mean that I don't think she wants them, I know she does (and also know she'd be a good mother, which makes it worse).

 

But, I do think that somewhere in her mind, the reality of "what it would take" is rolling around. And I'm not sure she's physically, emotionally or spiritually ready for the process. Frankly, I'm not sure she wants to do IVF, I'm not sure she wants to go have surgery again (perhaps several times), and I'm not sure she wants to spend the money (even absent my reluctance) and deal with the lifestyle changes it would entail to go through the process. She's never said "I want to do it" (IVF); after the blowup in the Dr's office, she never went back (but I did, to give a semen sample). It's like she want's to "act as if", but, when it comes down to it, I'm really not sure it's what she wants for herself. She's a very smart woman, and I don't for a second think that she really didn't understand what I was saying when I was talking about lifestyle changes, what it would take for IVF, and what we'd be giving up. I thought it was her being immature or unrealistic, but, perhaps it was just a way to make it "not her decision" and not be faced with the reality of "I have to really do this".

 

The funny analogy I'll draw is the guy who says to everyone he wants to play professional football but then drinks beer all weekend and never goes to the gym. His actions don't match that of someone who wants to be a professional athlete, but in his mind, he still wants to think of himself as "capable of it" or "what he really wants". No, if it's what you really want, you stop drinking beer and start taking steps to get yourself into the best possible shape/skill for whatever sport you want.

 

I have no idea if this is true or not. But, the more I think about it, the more I wonder. I may ask her if it's what she really wants, or if it's more what she wants to tell people she wants but use me/finances/her job/etc as an excuse (not that they aren't very valid excuses, but, if it's that important to you, at least for me, you find ways to make it work).

[Overtaxed]

So, asked her about IVF the other night (does she really want to do it) and got a confusing answer. She said, paraphrasing, "I'd do it if you wanted me to do it". I'm not really sure what to make of this. I don't think I'd ever want anyone to do IVF for me; I know what's involved in the process and it's terribly emotionally and physically draining. Even if I was dying to have kids, I'm not sure I could "put that" on someone else, they are the person who'd have to go through this, not me. Sure, I'd have to pay for it (unless I was married to someone wealthy), but that's not the "hard" part.

 

I'm kind of seeing this as a "non-answer" to the question. This can't be my decision. It's not my responsibility to determine if anyone else has kids, or if anyone else goes through IVF. She's said many times she wanted "us" to make this decision, but, IMHO, this isn't an "us" decision. It's individual, do you (wife) want to have children and are you willing to do what it takes? And then the same question to me. I have trouble seeing this as a decision that's totally intertwined with the other person. What she said to me (and has said for years) is that she doesn't what "children" she want "my children" or, for adoption, she wants "us to have children". I can see what she's getting at here, but, frankly, I think this is really rare and I'm not sure many couples really feel this way before kids. Most husbands I know were pretty ambivalent about kids before they came along. It was typically the wife who "really wanted them" and talked the husband into it (now, this is not universally true, I do have one guy friend who was totally into it and couldn't wait to have them, but that's rare compared to the the "most husbands" that I describe above).

 

Also, she said that what she really wanted from me around kids was to "try". I'm also not sure what this means. Funny version, we can "try" a few times a day for the rest of our relationship. I'm totally on board with that! And she might actually mean this, I've always been very cautious about kids, even with her. Putting is bluntly, even though she has a very slim chance and I have a very slim chance, I can count on one hand the number of times I'd orgasm inside of her over the course of our marriage. I just never did it, not with her and not with other women because I was so terrified of that 1 in a million shot. So, if this is what she means when she says "try", I can (and have been) do that for her. But to me, "try" is something else, we both know she needs another endo surgery (it's back and worse than ever). And I need to get on hormones (at best) or look at some sort of procedure (surgery) to increase my sperm count to have a shot at it. Is this what trying is? Or is trying IVF? IDK, I'm going to ask her though. Because, statistically speaking, having an orgasm inside her, while "trying", is about as likely to get her pregnant as flapping my arms is likely to let me fly around my neighborhood. Even saying "We can do 1 IVF cycle" isn't really trying, it's 90% likely that would not work (one cycle). It's not really "trying" when you know it's not going to work, is it? Or is it just a mental thing? "He's open to the idea"? Very confused about this, but she's said this several times over the years, so I need to get to the bottom of what "try" means to her.

 

Finally, she cried a lot the night before last. I think there are 2 things going on here, the reality of what she's done, and the reality that she's likely not going to have her own biological children. The 2nd part, I get it, it's a huge decision and has a massive impact on your life forever (as does having children). It's why I was so crystal clear with her before we got married, I knew she was "signing up" for something that a lot of women wouldn't want and needed to be sure she realized "This wedding means you most likely won't have your own children". She cried then too, but (obviously) we moved forward from it.

 

Things are going well. We were supposed to have our first MC appt yesterday, but we got there and the psych had screwed up the appt time. And also appeared to be batcrap crazy. <sigh>. So we are trying to schedule again, but we move to the new house/state in under 2 weeks; so we'd only be able to get 1 session in before we move. Kind of seems like a waste, but I'd still like to do it if we can (and obviously do it when we get to the new location). Sex has been fantastic. Not sure that matters, but I did want to throw that in here in case it has some bearing on the process.

[Bittersweetie]

Maybe I've missed something, and I apologize if I have, but may I ask why you are discussing children at just a month past d-day? It seems there are a lot of issues to be tackled right now before whether to do IVF or not.

 

I was a WW. And when d-day happened the kid discussion was immediately tabled. TBH we didn't start truly talking about it until probably 18 months after d-day. We had a baby 2.5 years after d-day. Having a baby is no joke...it puts A LOT of stress on the relationship, and our baby had some minor issues. I'd done a lot of work on myself, and my H too, and we got through that first couple of years. I imagine IVF is also very stressful on a relationship...do you really want to add that to the mix at this time?

 

P.S. My d-day was in my late 30s so I totally understand if it's a ticking clock situation. We still tabled it anyway, knowing that neither of us was in a place to bring another person into our relationship at that time.