The post that I hoped I'd never have to write.

[salparadise]

Putting myself in your ex's shoes, if I (showing vulnerability) told my man that he scared me, and he dismissed that as not possible, I could see myself ending a relationship, because I'd feel dismissed and almost mocked at my most vulnerable. I'd feel you'd elevated your own opinion above mine, and not treated as an equal. I'd feel you don't show empathy, and don't care for my perspective.

 

I get that. Yes, I was dismissive when she said that and I'm sure that was a major transgression in her eyes. However, if you try to see this from a man's perspective, it feels completely unfair and unjustified. Saying that escalated the whole thing... it's just shy of saying, I believe you're a monster. She knew that I would never harm her; she played that card in anger. At that point (after we arrived home), she was the one going off the rails. I never even raised my voice.

 

I think it's really important (again, just my thoughts) that she previously mentioned she wasn't sure you 2 could handle conflict, and you dismissed that, because you assumed you both could (but not based on any concrete examples). Why didn't you question her doubt to understand where it was coming from? I'm wondering if you really put as much effort into considering her opinions as your own.

 

I didn't question it much, I did question it some, because I didn't want to believe it. She had said before that there was a side of her that I hadn't seen. She knew that she a propensity to flip into a such a mode, and she knew that she could be harsh, judgmental, unforgiving. So it was a thing that we were both aware of it to some degree, I just didn't quite believe that it would ever be that extreme, and I wanted to believe that we'd use our communication skills to manage it successfully.

 

I think speculation about your ex's mental health is uncalled for.

 

I'm not doing that myself. I don't think I ever tried to pin a label on her. Some have and I've entertained the theory, but I haven't tried to pass judgement.

 

I think slights against all women are uncalled for. Therein lies the dark path to prejudice.

 

I'm trying to avoid that too, however, you have to admit that there are some gender issues underlying much of the discussion. The fact that she's a staunch feminist and has used the term 'phukking white male' opens the door. Yea, maybe I generalized about gender in one of my semi-rants a page or two back, but I don't mean to paint the whole feminine gender with a broad brush. One thing is hard to deny though, and that is that certain parts of this are not on an equal playing field. She'll be with a new man in a matter of weeks, if she isn't already. It may be year or two before I find someone suitable who also finds me attractive and interesting enough for a relationship. And the 'scared' word is not a gender neutral thing at all, obviously.

 

I hope you know this all comes from a good place, Sal. Not trying to hit you when you're down.

 

Yes, I see that this is a thoughtful post explaining some possibilities from the female perspective and I appreciate it very much. Thank you!

[chix]

Again, just trying to help, and only you know what's valuable to consider and not for you. Feel free to dismiss anything that seems at odds.

 

Couldn't it be true that a situation that would scare me wouldn't scare you, and that both would be a fair reflection of the same situation?

 

I'm thinking of how often couples see the same situation from different perspectives, and wonder why you dismiss the idea that she felt scared so easily. I understand the situation wasn't 1 you'd consider scary, but we all experience things differently in general, and to more dramatic extremes when we are emotionally charged. It feels like this was 1 of those important times to apologise immediately and just listen to her and acknowledge her feelings without reacting (am thinking of what I'd have wanted).

 

There are loads of examples in my life where I, or someone else, has considered a situation to be totally different from me, despite us both viewing the same situation. I am thinking of how many times I have read witness statements of the same event and people, and the descriptions of what happened and who was there vary enormously, despite everyone's intentions being honourable.

[salparadise]

How long ago did the breakup happen? What have you been doing since then to focus on healing and physical wellbeing?

 

January 28th was the fateful night, January 31st was the text. So three weeks now.

 

I've been trying to practice mindfulness and self soothing. I'm trying give myself permission to mourn and be okay with the heartbreak. I'm trying to understand that while I feel betrayed and disrespected (text message, no opportunity to discuss) that part may not have been intended to be hurtful (although that's a bit hard to believe). I've been posting in this thread and trying to pay attention to empathy and insight, while ignoring those that are the opposite. I am working.

 

I have talked with a few people. My brother is quite understanding and empathetic. I visited my daughter at college a week ago. I told one of the other volunteers where I volunteer what I was going through, as well as the manager.

 

This morning I was driving as the sun came up and I suddenly caught myself feeling happy and optimistic –– first time in three weeks I think. I am in the process of accepting what I must accept.

 

I find myself wishing that she and I could sit down and have one last friendly conversation to wish each other well and so our last interaction wouldn't awful. I want to believe that it was real and meaningful. That wish will probably not be fulfilled.

[salparadise]

Couldn't it be true that a situation that would scare me wouldn't scare you, and that both would be a fair reflection of the same situation?

 

Yes, that is possible, but I think you haven't read the entire thread. There was no basis for that whatsoever. I'm sure she'd tell it quite differently. That's the beauty of the sacred word –– can't be denied because who can say what someone feels, however, only women can use it, and when they do so to gain leverage it's not right. I am not going to go through the details again in this post. If you're interested, read the earlier posts.

[chix]

I love sunrises and sunsets. I often sit here by the riverside and watch either. I've endless pic's of them.

 

I find it very soothing when I am overwhelmed or struggling to make sense of things - the change via rising or setting signifies either the sense of something ending or something beginning.

 

I thoroughly recommend waking up and playing energetic, happy music for 15 minutes or so, and singing along and dancing with wild abandon each day. It's a good way to get oxytocin flowing.

[Sweetfish]

January 28th was the fateful night, January 31st was the text. So three weeks now.

 

I've been trying to practice mindfulness and self soothing. I'm trying give myself permission to mourn and be okay with the heartbreak. I'm trying to understand that while I feel betrayed and disrespected (text message, no opportunity to discuss) that part may not have been intended to be hurtful (although that's a bit hard to believe). I've been posting in this thread and trying to pay attention to empathy and insight, while ignoring those that are the opposite. I am working.

 

I have talked with a few people. My brother is quite understanding and empathetic. I visited my daughter at college a week ago. I told one of the other volunteers where I volunteer what I was going through, as well as the manager.

 

This morning I was driving as the sun came up and I suddenly caught myself feeling happy and optimistic –– first time in three weeks I think. I am in the process of accepting what I must accept.

 

I find myself wishing that she and I could sit down and have one last friendly conversation to wish each other well and so our last interaction wouldn't awful. I want to believe that it was real and meaningful. That wish will probably not be fulfilled.

 

 

There will be days you will feel good and days you will feel bad. This feeling of acceptance maybe just a cycle of other things to come.

 

I believe it will take months to truly accept what happened.

 

Try to extract the best of everyday.

[chix]

I've read each post, Sal. Promise I'm not trying to misrepresent something, nor irritate you. It can be tiring to discuss things, so feel free to ignore my posts. I'm just trying to give my perspective, but I wasn't there, and don't know anyone involved.

 

I don't think we can ever say what another person should feel about a situation, because they aren't constructed physically and mentally as we are. I'm thinking of times where people have thought something I did like moving to another country was extraordinary, whereas I didn't even consider it necessary to sort out accommodation until I'd landed (it was such a non-event to me).

 

I seem to recall you had mentioned her previously saying "feeling safe" was a dealbreaker for her. If I'm remembering correctly, and she felt unsafe in this moment, it could have been enough for her to end it. She seems to have taken a day or 2 to come to the conclusion, if I remember correctly you saying there were a few days between text messages, so she didn't rush her decision. Sorry if I am misremembering anything here.

 

Am also thinking of times I've witnessed (I'm a people watcher) someone fly off the handle in what, to me, seemed a fairly innocuous discussion. I'd have never considered it a reason to feel whatever it was that prompted the extreme reaction.

 

If she had previously felt like you dismiss her opinions and feelings, this could have been the straw that broke the camel's back, so it could have been the culmination of events over a longer period.

[SoThatHappened]

I'm thinking of how often couples see the same situation from different perspectives,

You could change the word "couples" to "people" in the quote above and probably eventually see that you two weren't a good match.

 

I say eventually, because right now, I wouldn't wish what you're going through on anybody. Been there...

 

I agree that the reasons she gave for ending a good, long(ish)-term relationship were pretty weak. I've done MUCH worse, and my girl stayed with me because she loved me.

 

I've also done far LESS and been dropped like a bad habit.

 

In the latter, I eventually realized it wouldn't have lasted anyway, and I'm thankful we're no longer together.

 

I was also walking on eggshells in that relationship, and it sounds like you may have been doing a little of that yourself (putting her on a pedestal somewhat, and never arguing).

 

When people fit correctly, you don't have to worry about the relationship even when your flaws and mistakes show up. They just like/love you regardless.

 

You had a bad day and a bad showing of yourself. Who doesn't?

 

And, it would've happened eventually if she gets scared by things that you don't find would be scary (and I don't find what you did "scary").

[thefooloftheyear]

Just about everything that has been said......has.....

 

I really can't add anything, only to say that as time wears on. you probably will get a better understanding of the events and happenstances that led to where you are, and then maybe it will make better sense......How long that takes is anyone's guess. but it's often very hard to look objectively at these things when you are just trying to just cope or pick up the pieces..

 

It's one of the craziest things about being human...The idea that someone who you think you know inside and out, isn't on the same page...

 

TFY

[salparadise]

I seem to recall you had mentioned her previously saying "feeling safe" was a dealbreaker for her. If I'm remembering correctly, and she felt unsafe in this moment, it could have been enough for her to end it.

 

I didn't say that in the context of it being a dealbreaker. It was her vulnerable moment, quite tender and authentic, when we were starting to fall in love. She said, "I need to feel safe with you, Sal, and I do."

 

I agree that me being dismissive of her saying that might have been it. But I felt that it wasn't true in that moment and still do. It was said in anger, to escalate and justify, not as vulnerability. If she had said it in a soft vulnerable way, of course I would have held her and comforted her. But she wouldn't let me touch her. She was madder than a wet hen in that moment. I had never seen her like that.

 

It's all so unfortunate. I feel that things just snowballed and kept getting bigger and bigger until it reached monumental proportions, and she nuked it.

 

Let me ask you a question... why are you so sure that she must've been justified and could not possibly have overreacted? Every possible scenario you suggest ends with her being completely justified. My belief is that people who love each other and value their relationship don't nuke it at the first little incident. Her dedication had to have been paper thin.

 

One of two things must be true... either it was hanging by a thread the whole time, or the interactions became so magnified in her mind that it was bad enough to throw away a beautiful relationship. Maybe her standards are so high and so narrow that any indiscretion is enough to terminate an otherwise great relationship, but this is probably a variation on the former.

 

Tighter than a banjo string applies regardless.

Edited February 21, 2017 by salparadise

[BettyDraper]

OP, you have mentioned the disparity in education and income between you and your ex. You have also talked abut her alignment with feminism and social justice. I wonder if you would have been more compatible with a more traditional relationship. When I say "traditional", I mean a relationship with a woman who is less educated, earns less money than you do and does not identify as a feminist. I've only made this observation because you have mentioned certain aspects of your ex's lifestyle and worldview more than once.

 

It seems like your ex had not truly healed from her ex husband's abuse. That would explain the overreaction to a situation which didn't warrant a break up.

 

I can appreciate how hard it would have been to see that she is already looking for another man. Sometimes people go on the rebound to avoid feeling the pain which comes from loss of a relationship. I know that won't make you feel better but it might explain why she is looking for a new man so quickly.

[chix]

Thanks for clarifying the "need to feel safe" thing. Sorry for not exactly getting it right.

 

 

Your question to me is very welcome, because it has led me to take a few minutes to reflect. Before you read the rest, just wanting to encourage you to tell me to shut up, if what I type below is beyond what you want to see right now, since the breakup is so new, and I'm trying to help you balance and heal.

 

 

I don't believe vulnerability has to present itself as "soft", to be recognised as vulnerability. I'm just going off personal experience from my voluntary work with very vulnerable people in my community (refugees, elderly, homeless, unemployed). Objectively, they are very vulnerable due to their circumstances. However, their feeling of vulnerability presents itself in a variety of ways - sometimes they are angry, sometimes sad, sometimes in despair, sometimes masking it all with a smile and laughter, sometimes crying and heartbroken...

 

 

My man and I often talk about colleagues and friends of his who are temporary workers, who sometimes have work, and sometimes don't. He was telling me that 1 of them calls him and a brother of his every night wanting to meet up, and it reminded me of something from a few years ago in my own life.

 

 

 

A man I know kept sending invitations to connect via a professional website, despite us already being connected. My reaction was 1 of annoyance - why was he bothering me over and over, and why didn't he pay attention to the fact that we're already connected etc. I sent him a message asking if there was a technical fault leading to me getting invitations despite already being connected, and he explained he's unemployed and doesn't want to be forgotten. That incident changed me a lot, because it made me realise I had given my own opinions and feelings too much weight, and not considered his enough.

 

 

[Just my view of how the thread has panned out] I was actually just trying to show you a different side than the predominant responses of "she's entirely to blame, she is terrible, she is mentally ill, she was inauthentic, all women are x" etc. I started posting because I felt you were being led down the wrong path, and that it wasn't conducive, not to mention the "all women are x" and "she is mentally ill" lines are regressive - we're hopefully wanting to move in the direction of recognising people being different, and not subject to discrimination based on a random grouping of our choosing that caters to our desire to elevate ourselves over them.

 

 

[Just my view of how the thread has panned out] I felt you were not being encouraged by-and-large to accept her decision, and not being encouraged to avoid painting 1 party as a saint and 1 a sinner. I feel a lot of posters ignore the bias we are all subject to when discussing ourselves - I think I am x, and I think I've handled a situation in y way, and shown emotion z, but another party may view each of those entirely differently, and neither would be wrong. People have largely accepted your view of events, without considering your natural bias (we all have this) and the limits of the lens, through which, you view any situation (like all of us). Maybe that's just fuelled by wanting to soothe you right now, but I don't think it's a path to healing, where we all have to accept our circumstances and that 2 people are responsible for what unfolds in relationships.

 

 

I think (based on nothing but reading the thread) that you were both incompatible based on different communication styles and conflict resolution styles. I actually think most breakups are simply about incompatibility, rather than anyone being a terror etc.

 

 

I think 1 of 2 things happened for your ex (I cannot be sure of anything):

 

 

THE CUMULATIVE EFFECT WAS A DEALBREAKER: there were lots of such incidents (that you overlooked and dismissed), and this was the straw that broke the camel's back

 

 

THE INDIVIDUAL INCIDENT WAS A DEALBREAKER: the situation and your handling of it and her was a dealbreaker for her

 

 

I think the dating site is a red herring, but may be wrong, of course. I've never used a dating site, but have read endless amounts on how people get off on the attention from dating sites, and some are addicted to them like computer games. I can imagine a scenario whereby someone wanting to avoid dealing with the hard emotions everyone involved in a breakup goes through would put themselves on a dating site to have their ego massaged a bit.

 

 

Even if I am wrong, and she is actively seeking a new partner, she is free to do that. If her desire to breakup was based on the culmination of lots of events, she may have started dealing with the breakup months ago, so may be more healed than you are.

 

 

I hope none of this reads as attacking you, Sal. I really don't wish to add to your frustration and pain.

[PrettyEmily77]

I don't know if that will help at all Sal, and I know it's only conjecture, but I don't believe for one second that she didn't have feelings for you. She invested 17 months with you, which isn't nothing, especially once you reach a certain age.

 

 

You put your heart on the line for this relationship, and I think that's commendable. I also think that she did that too, but as someone who 'survived' a very traumatic relationship, I can really relate to how she reacted (apart from the text thing).

 

 

That's not saying anything about you as a partner, Sal; but it takes a lot of patience and constant self-awareness from both parties for a relationship post abuse to work, a lot of trials and errors - some barriers are more difficult than others to break down.

 

 

I can totally understand how you can think that she magnified the issue in her head, from your perspective.

 

 

I'm not sure that she did - this is unfair for you, but it's self-preservation for her.

Edited February 21, 2017 by PrettyEmily77

[SevenCity]

I'm a complete outsider. What I'm observing may not be reflective of reality. However, I know you are searching for ideas of what was amiss for your ex, and I have some suggestions (just based on reading here - whatever value you attribute to that):

 

To me, you read as dismissive of opinions that aren't in accordance with yours. Putting myself in your ex's shoes, if I (showing vulnerability) told my man that he scared me, and he dismissed that as not possible, I could see myself ending a relationship, because I'd feel dismissed and almost mocked at my most vulnerable. I'd feel you'd elevated your own opinion above mine, and not treated as an equal. I'd feel you don't show empathy, and don't care for my perspective.

I think it's really important (again, just my thoughts) that she previously mentioned she wasn't sure you 2 could handle conflict, and you dismissed that, because you assumed you both could (but not based on any concrete examples). Why didn't you question her doubt to understand where it was coming from? I'm wondering if you really put as much effort into considering her opinions as your own.

 

I think speculation about your ex's mental health is uncalled for. She ended things, and gave you her reason. She didn't disappear without explaining. I don't think she was right to text it, but you had already dismissed her feeling scared. She may have envisaged you labouring your opinions, and trying to change her mind, as opposed to really listening and acknowledging her as an equal without reacting.

 

I would say, just based on a few examples in the thread (which may, or may not, be indicative of a problem) that communication was not good between you 2 at times.

 

I think slights against all women are uncalled for. Therein lies the dark path to prejudice.

 

These are just the thoughts of an internet stranger. I may be wrong. However, I think I'd end a relationship where I felt not heard, felt my opinions weren't valued as equal, felt embarrassed by my partner's treatment of minimum wage workers, and felt mistreated at my most vulnerable.

 

I hope you know this all comes from a good place, Sal. Not trying to hit you when you're down.

 

This is a fundamental compatibility flaw in the way women vs men are designed.

 

Men typically use reason and logic whereas women base on emotions. What you may read as being dismissive, in a guy's mind he does not.

 

Instead, he is trying to alleviate your concerns by presenting a logical argument. Not "you're stupid for thinking that", rather "it's not what it appears, let me give you reasons and examples as to why so you can feel better".

 

Unfortunately, this never works and once the pain is felt, real or imagined, the damage is done.

 

Allow me to cite an example from my life. I tried to work things out with my ex for 3 months after our initial split. The cumulative effect of the pain she had felt was too much to overcome (despite her initially responding very well). Somethings I take ownership of, others I do not.

 

One day we were sitting on the couch talking (during the 3 month failed reconciliation) and she said she had to ask me a question. She said, as she was shaking in fear, "Did you know the girl who lived in the house next door?" I wasn't sure who she was referencing so I asked if it was the girl who just moved in with her bf. She clarified it was a girl who lived there when my now ex had just moved in with me. She went on to ask if I had a sexual relationship with her.

 

Dumbfounded, I said "No, why?" It turns out the first month my now ex moved in, this girl came on my property, looked in the kitchen window, saw my ex, then walked away. I had not so much as said hi to this girl and meanwhile my ex thought, for three years, I had sex with her.

 

My usual response would have been to defend myself and negate her argument with logic and reason. Since I started learning I said "I'm so sorry you have been thinking this for 3 years. That must have been terrible".

 

But alas, the damage had been done. This was not the only reason we split but for the entire time she lived with me she thought I cheated on her with this girl. To me, this is nuts. It's like me saying "Chix, I'm so sorry but I backed into your car in the parking lot" You are understandably upset. But then I say "Chix, I was wrong, it was not your car after all" yet you are STILL upset with me. I actually said this example to her (to no avail) but I learned a valuable lesson about the way women process feelings. Regardless if real or imagined the hurt is real and there is little you can do to correct it. Granted, she should have said something 3 years earlier but she didn't.

 

Guys are problem solvers. We want to make things better. Women on the other hand want to be heard. Our problem solving is often misconstrued as "being dismissive" when in fact it's the opposite. If a guy doesn't care he wouldn't make an attempt to alleviate your concerns. I bet some of Sal's annoyance of that night was due to his failures leading up to getting the car towed. He was likely as upset with himself as he was the tow truck driver and hostess / waitress. By his ex offering her phone number she was dismissing HIM. He had no obligation to give the driver his number and was making a point (like I do when a store asks me for my number - I tell them I don't give it out).

 

Women should take heed of this, but often it is just easier for them to find another guy and start the cycle all over again because it's easy to find a guy. Guys should as well - we are best served by not trying to fix a problem.

 

So, my advice to you is to understand a guys perspective. Ending a relationship because a guy doesn't understand how you solve problems (as most don't) is reactive. The better approach would be saying "When you try to prove that my feelings are wrong it makes me feel like you are dismissive and don't care about me". I've never had a woman say this and it likely would have saved many relationships.

 

My advice to Sal for his next relationship is to never try and alleviate a woman's concerns. Instead, deeply explore how it made her feel and then offer an apology and adjust your behavior.

 

I tell you, I'm amazed that any relationship lasts.

[chix]

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts so well. I don't see the divide as gender-based. I certainly know some women who have similar behaviour traits, but just as many who don't.

 

I am part of a group of 3 women who are friends and see each other often. 1 of us is going through an hard time right now (struggling to make ends meet, unemployed, uncertain if she'll be forced to leave the country), and she's avoiding the other friend right now. The reason for the avoidance is she feels the other friend shows no compassion at all to her. She feels constantly judged by the "have you got a job yet?" question, and the "have you tried x yet?" question, because the other friend asks both as soon as the 2 come into contact, and even relayed to another acquaintance that the person is now unemployed, which the unemployed person found shaming.

 

I spoke with the friend who's asking the questions yesterday, and asked her to be a bit more empathetic. I explained our friend is looking for sanctuary. Her situation is very overwhelming, so she spends time with us for a break. She is very switched on. She is constantly trying to find work. Her CV is great. Her experiences are, too. We can trust that she is doing all she can right now to escape her circumstances. We can certainly trust that she'd be shouting it from the rooftops if her situation changed and she found work. What she needs from us is love, kindness, practical help like the giving of food, stuff to make her smile etc.

 

My friend who's asking the questions said she struggles with just saying "I'm sorry this is difficult right now", rather than something like "have you had your CV reviewed?".

 

You mention it's easy to find a man, and it is, but that's valueless, because most men will be incompatible with us. It isn't of any use to just find a man; one needs a good man who's compatible.

 

We don't know why she reacted as she did, whether it was a culmination of incidents or just based on that. I can't help but think on friends who've gone through breakups for reasons I haven't agreed with, or who've not broken up in circumstances that to me are dangerous etc. She took a few days to tell him it's over after the last day they were together, so she didn't rush a decision there and then when it happened. Not sure if I am explaining my perspective there well. Do you get what I mean?

 

I try really hard in my relationship to avoid momentary reactions. I'm thinking on a recent conversation with my man, which went:

 

Me: I had a bit of a stressful day today because of x

Him: You had 1 stressful day, but I have a stressful day every day

 

It would have been easy to feel dismissed at that point! However, my response was "How awful. It must be difficult to go through that every day, and I'm sorry you have to put up with that. What causes the stress each day?".

[PrettyEmily77]

So, my advice to you is to understand a guys perspective. Ending a relationship because a guy doesn't understand how you solve problems (as most don't) is reactive. The better approach would be saying "When you try to prove that my feelings are wrong it makes me feel like you are dismissive and don't care about me". I've never had a woman say this and it likely would have saved many relationships.

 

 

I've said that a lot in previous relationships - even when the guy is kind and considerate, it gets an eye roll, a 'OMG women' sigh or a 'get over it' type of reply (and that's not even going into 'female victim' territory, which is simply out of order to someone who went through years of abuse) ; this is why only someone who is ok to accept sometimes irrational emotional vulnerability consistently for a certain period of time will be a good fit. This works for both genders by the way.

 

 

When you have been through a very toxic relationship for a long time (which I understand to be the case for Sal's ex GF but I don't mind being corrected on this), when your feelings, your actions, your character and your personality have been affected by a constant stream of lies or gaslighting or severe emotional abuse for years, your guard is so way up high that even an eye roll or a slight dismissal is taken to heart. It takes so much more time to relax and be yourself in a relationship because you are constantly on tenterhooks - that's only an assumption, but I presume this is why it's taken 17 months for Sal and his GF to have a 'proper' argument.

Edited February 21, 2017 by PrettyEmily77

[Sweetfish]

This is a fundamental compatibility flaw in the way women vs men are designed.

 

Men typically use reason and logic whereas women base on emotions. What you may read as being dismissive, in a guy's mind he does not.

 

Instead, he is trying to alleviate your concerns by presenting a logical argument. Not "you're stupid for thinking that", rather "it's not what it appears, let me give you reasons and examples as to why so you can feel better".

 

Unfortunately, this never works and once the pain is felt, real or imagined, the damage is done.

 

Allow me to cite an example from my life. I tried to work things out with my ex for 3 months after our initial split. The cumulative effect of the pain she had felt was too much to overcome (despite her initially responding very well). Somethings I take ownership of, others I do not.

 

One day we were sitting on the couch talking (during the 3 month failed reconciliation) and she said she had to ask me a question. She said, as she was shaking in fear, "Did you know the girl who lived in the house next door?" I wasn't sure who she was referencing so I asked if it was the girl who just moved in with her bf. She clarified it was a girl who lived there when my now ex had just moved in with me. She went on to ask if I had a sexual relationship with her.

 

Dumbfounded, I said "No, why?" It turns out the first month my now ex moved in, this girl came on my property, looked in the kitchen window, saw my ex, then walked away. I had not so much as said hi to this girl and meanwhile my ex thought, for three years, I had sex with her.

 

My usual response would have been to defend myself and negate her argument with logic and reason. Since I started learning I said "I'm so sorry you have been thinking this for 3 years. That must have been terrible".

 

But alas, the damage had been done. This was not the only reason we split but for the entire time she lived with me she thought I cheated on her with this girl. To me, this is nuts. It's like me saying "Chix, I'm so sorry but I backed into your car in the parking lot" You are understandably upset. But then I say "Chix, I was wrong, it was not your car after all" yet you are STILL upset with me. I actually said this example to her (to no avail) but I learned a valuable lesson about the way women process feelings. Regardless if real or imagined the hurt is real and there is little you can do to correct it. Granted, she should have said something 3 years earlier but she didn't.

 

Guys are problem solvers. We want to make things better. Women on the other hand want to be heard. Our problem solving is often misconstrued as "being dismissive" when in fact it's the opposite. If a guy doesn't care he wouldn't make an attempt to alleviate your concerns. I bet some of Sal's annoyance of that night was due to his failures leading up to getting the car towed. He was likely as upset with himself as he was the tow truck driver and hostess / waitress. By his ex offering her phone number she was dismissing HIM. He had no obligation to give the driver his number and was making a point (like I do when a store asks me for my number - I tell them I don't give it out).

 

Women should take heed of this, but often it is just easier for them to find another guy and start the cycle all over again because it's easy to find a guy. Guys should as well - we are best served by not trying to fix a problem.

 

So, my advice to you is to understand a guys perspective. Ending a relationship because a guy doesn't understand how you solve problems (as most don't) is reactive. The better approach would be saying "When you try to prove that my feelings are wrong it makes me feel like you are dismissive and don't care about me". I've never had a woman say this and it likely would have saved many relationships.

 

My advice to Sal for his next relationship is to never try and alleviate a woman's concerns. Instead, deeply explore how it made her feel and then offer an apology and adjust your behavior.

 

I tell you, I'm amazed that any relationship lasts.

 

 

1 billlion likes

 

To bad this statement will fall on death ears. It will still be argued that women and men are the same and want the same things and that is DEAD WRONG. Many women will continue to think they are the center of the universe and these post proves this by how the womem posters keep yaking away about feeling.

 

No they will not heed your warning... they will affirm they did the right thing everytime to easy the guilt... jumping from guy to guy searching for the one and the real problem is them.

 

They DONT get it... just like the countless im over 35 and cant find a good guy threads... you tell them whats happening and they look at you with dear headlights..

 

 

Some women get it... others don't.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Sweetfish

[Sweetfish]

 

 

[Just my view of how the thread has panned out] I was actually just trying to show you a different side than the predominant responses of "she's entirely to blame, she is terrible, she is mentally ill, she was inauthentic, all women are x" etc. I started posting because I felt you were being led down the wrong path, and that it wasn't conducive, not to mention the "all women are x" and "she is mentally ill" lines are regressive - we're hopefully wanting to move in the direction of recognising people being different, and not subject to discrimination based on a random grouping of our choosing that caters to our desire to elevate ourselves over them.

.

 

Also, who said she is mentally ill? This is how information is twisted or taken out of context.

[umirano]

Hey Sal, I read your story and the thread. I'm sorry for what happened here. Keep walking, these days are tough, I'm 4 months post BU, and it is slowly getting better.

 

Our Rs was also 17 months, and I also haven't gotten a tangible reason, all though there were a few actual hick ups before we split. To me then they were rather insignificant disagreements, which in hindsight proved to be symptoms of growing resentment and distrust. At one point she accused me of cheating on her (which I didn't, not even close). Similarly to your case, I think I was supposed to meet unrealistically narrow and specific expectations.

 

One thing I did find out is that in one case I showed too much emotion for her liking. Not to strangers, no, when talking to her about one of the accusations she made. I did say to her that I will not always be able to or even want to completely suppress my emotions. I think this was a deal breaker for my ex and I believe it has to do with her family and upbringing. I think her family has had an unhealthy way of fighting. Her father would yell and sometimes hit her and her sister, or storm out of the house when she was little. In my family it was not uncommon to be emotional, i.e. raise one's voice, but continue the debate (maybe heatedly), until everyone was heard and respected again. My perception of a raised voice, during an emotional debate, is not as bad as hers.

 

Like your ex mine is a (3rd wave) feminist, all though she never lashed out against or generalized white men. Like your ex mine took psychotropic drugs, or was supposed to anyway (for depression).

 

Like in your case, it was insinuated by her that I am making her feel unsafe. I completely understand how you feel. It is a silver bullet against men, there is no way to defend yourself against "I don't feel safe anymore around you.". This statement doesn't have to be even remotely based on reality. As soon as you start to counter it you have completed the grave for your RS. At the time I didn't defend myself, not because of what I just said, but because I was offended. I think this was probably the third last sentence that we spoke. I said something to the effect of "Well, if I'm somehow a threat to you then we probably shouldn't be in a relationship anymore, that's the last thing I want to be to you". Mind you, this was over the phone, she was several thousand miles away and it was after she took a couple of days where she didn't talk to me, again, similar to your case.

 

I was truly upset. I have consoled this girl when she was crying herself to sleep (likely a depressive phase) and didn't want to step outside her room in her shared apartment. I've consoled her when her family berated her for her career choice or when anxiety over her job search ate her up. I've encouraged her to pursue the career that she invested 15 years of her life in. I told her, and meant, that I'd be at her side regardless of what and where she chose to work (her career didn't allow her to freely chose her location). I was ready to uproot my life to be at her side. I've helped her move internationally, with administrative issues, with her family, etc, and I visited her two times in just over a month. None of that support I gave her for over a year mattered, in the end I was just a threat, like a drunk stranger in a dark alley.

 

I feel betrayed. I trusted this girl. I thought we were tight. We'd work on things. I am having a hard time right now when I hear someone say "they're in for the long run" or "I'm not going to give up just like that" or "I mean it, when I say I'm serious". I've heard these phrases a million times. They mean nothing.

 

Now let's look at some of the more uplifting aspects. We broke up before anything serious happened, i.e. before I turned my life upside down to be with her. I give her credit for breaking up with me before I made any commitments that would be hard to undo, logistically, financially and socially. She has been civil and tried to explain as best as she could, but to be honest that isn't much. I don't think that's her - or the dumpers in general - fault. It is my deeply held conviction that in a case of a break up there are no 'good' explanations. People don't know, have a hard time putting things into words or don't want to hurt and may even lie (for benign reasons). You cannot rely on the dumper for closure and explanations. It's either clear as day and there's no need to talk about it, or it's subjective, irrational and psychological. In either case your best bet is to not dig.

 

I'm happy we're not together anymore. It is unlikely that we'd have worked out in the long run. It is likely that my loss, emotionally and otherwise, would have been bigger if we had not broken up then. I do not want her back. I think we were really incompatible, all though on the surface no one who'd see us would have said so. We were in unison when it came to worldview, ethics, sports, family values. We had great times together travelling or pursuing hobbies. We respected each others careers. It looked flawless. However, we were not able to truly connect, as can be seen from the fact that tiny details would derail the relationship over the course of just three weeks. It was a downward spiral, and the end came closer at an ever increasing pace. I had no idea what to do, I saw the relationship bleed out in my hands and I was pretty much paralyzed. Whatever I thought I knew about her, or our relationship proved to be either false or unreliable in these last days, when I was sort of being debriefed on the relationship.

 

I also don't believe in these internet diagnoses, and it has irked me in many threads on this forum. I advocate to be of good faith and go by the OPs account. It happens too often that significant others of posters on here are painted in unrealistically negative or positive light without any evidence, just to fit a particular participants narrative. Psychology is not universally seen as a reliable science, and psychiatry, the medical field concerning itself with the studying of the mind is a field which trains its professionals for years before they feel ready to diagnose someone in person. Psychiatry is one of the most poorly understood fields of medicine, any psychiatrist will tell you so. Writing up the catalogs of criteria for health issues is the easier part, but many on here seem to have great talents in identifying key features of a wide variety of mental illnesses in third party accounts over the internet. It's by no means only in this thread and I appreciate that most people want to help. I just doubt there are this many qualified mental health professionals on this forum.

 

In this spirit I suggest you stop trying to pick apart the break up and vivisect your ex's exact reasoning and motivation. I don't think it matters too much why she broke up with you. It's not like you can do anything about it, nor are there good reasons to believe you should. It is clear, regardless of what the exact mechanics in that black box of your break up are, you probably don't want to be with her, even if you could. Naturally your trust in people and probably yourself has been shaken. This is what needs your attention now. That's what I see as the main challenge for myself anyway. We cannot let break ups that we don't understand, and that's the vast majority, permanently damage our ability to enter and maintain relationships.

 

I'm not worried for you, the way you talked about this BU, and the advice you give on here signal that you are a well grounded person. Move on with your life, you have learned your lesson from what I read in your opening post. She hasn't changed who you were before you met her and it's important to not load this whole mess with more weight than it actually deserves. People are erratic. Our control over things is smaller than we all like, especially when it comes to social situations. It doesn't mean you have to question yourself.

 

Good luck Sal!

[SevenCity]

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts so well. I don't see the divide as gender-based. I certainly know some women who have similar behaviour traits, but just as many who don't.

 

I am part of a group of 3 women who are friends and see each other often. 1 of us is going through an hard time right now (struggling to make ends meet, unemployed, uncertain if she'll be forced to leave the country), and she's avoiding the other friend right now. The reason for the avoidance is she feels the other friend shows no compassion at all to her. She feels constantly judged by the "have you got a job yet?" question, and the "have you tried x yet?" question, because the other friend asks both as soon as the 2 come into contact, and even relayed to another acquaintance that the person is now unemployed, which the unemployed person found shaming.

 

I spoke with the friend who's asking the questions yesterday, and asked her to be a bit more empathetic. I explained our friend is looking for sanctuary. Her situation is very overwhelming, so she spends time with us for a break. She is very switched on. She is constantly trying to find work. Her CV is great. Her experiences are, too. We can trust that she is doing all she can right now to escape her circumstances. We can certainly trust that she'd be shouting it from the rooftops if her situation changed and she found work. What she needs from us is love, kindness, practical help like the giving of food, stuff to make her smile etc.

 

My friend who's asking the questions said she struggles with just saying "I'm sorry this is difficult right now", rather than something like "have you had your CV reviewed?".

 

You mention it's easy to find a man, and it is, but that's valueless, because most men will be incompatible with us. It isn't of any use to just find a man; one needs a good man who's compatible.

 

We don't know why she reacted as she did, whether it was a culmination of incidents or just based on that. I can't help but think on friends who've gone through breakups for reasons I haven't agreed with, or who've not broken up in circumstances that to me are dangerous etc. She took a few days to tell him it's over after the last day they were together, so she didn't rush a decision there and then when it happened. Not sure if I am explaining my perspective there well. Do you get what I mean?

 

I try really hard in my relationship to avoid momentary reactions. I'm thinking on a recent conversation with my man, which went:

 

Me: I had a bit of a stressful day today because of x

Him: You had 1 stressful day, but I have a stressful day every day

 

It would have been easy to feel dismissed at that point! However, my response was "How awful. It must be difficult to go through that every day, and I'm sorry you have to put up with that. What causes the stress each day?".

 

Your example reminds me EXACTLY of my middle sister. When I speak about men vs women behaviors I speak in generalizations. Of course not ALL women or ALL men act like this, but MOST do.

 

I'm Irish (half but look mostly). On St Paddy's day everyone assumes I'm going to get smashed. Meanwhile, I don't drink. Are they wrong? No, most Irish guys do get smashed that day. I am the exception.

 

Back to your example. Your unemployed friend needs love and reassurance (like most women). The "direct" friend is not being malicious, rather she is showing love how she understands it (like most guys would). She wants to FIX your friend's problem, not because your friend is incapable, rather because she cares about her. She wants to attack the problem from all angles in hopes of uncovering a solution that has eluded your other friend. This is what most guys do. When we go to our friends with a problem we are seeking a solution. It's how we show love.

 

What your bf said to you is not right but I've done that before. I got laid off from the same company my ex works at and had to take a 30% reduction in salary. She would constantly complain how much it sucked. I would say "Well mine sucks and I get paid less". It wasn't right, but I took it personally her complaints when I wish I was working there again at my old salary. Not to mention she was $100k in debt so she needed to deal with it to pay it off (which was another cause of our tension). Needless to say I won't do that with the next girl.

 

About finding a guy I will grant you most aren't worth a LTR. But the same percentage holds true for men (my 5 months of dating is an example). However, for about for every 50 guys who would go out with you I get 1 woman. Now think about that. Who do you think will find someone quicker? I'm a good looking guy too (not a movie star by any stretch, but I'm told I'm attractive). I'm tall, in shape, make good money, have a house, and no kids. Yet my bumble account might have 6 matches I have to find. A woman will have 400-1000!

 

I believe this is why guys hold on to girlfriends and women are more likely to let go.

[SevenCity]

I've said that a lot in previous relationships - even when the guy is kind and considerate, it gets an eye roll, a 'OMG women' sigh or a 'get over it' type of reply (and that's not even going into 'female victim' territory, which is simply out of order to someone who went through years of abuse) ; this is why only someone who is ok to accept sometimes irrational emotional vulnerability consistently for a certain period of time will be a good fit. This works for both genders by the way.

 

 

When you have been through a very toxic relationship for a long time (which I understand to be the case for Sal's ex GF but I don't mind being corrected on this), when your feelings, your actions, your character and your personality have been affected by a constant stream of lies or gaslighting or severe emotional abuse for years, your guard is so way up high that even an eye roll or a slight dismissal is taken to heart. It takes so much more time to relax and be yourself in a relationship because you are constantly on tenterhooks - that's only an assumption, but I presume this is why it's taken 17 months for Sal and his GF to have a 'proper' argument.

 

Guys don't understsnd how that hurts a woman. And honestly it can be frustrating.

 

Let me ask, how many times did you tell them their actions will result in you breaking up if they don't change them? That's the frustration of most men - guys who feel it "was completely out of the blue. Everything seemed fine".

 

Women often don't vocalize how serious the issue is so the guy only finds out once it is too late.

 

I get being over sensitive due to past bad experiences, but if people would just communicate more relationships would have a munch stronger chance of surviving.

[Abhainn]

I'm sorry that this happened to you! It seems like many people have offered a lot of support on this thread. It sounds like a lot of people have commented on the concerning nature of a relationship with no fights, no annoyances, no expressed issues. Too many of these can be a problem, but I hope in the future when you are ready to venture out again and risk your heart again, that you will watch and wait for a relationship in which there is the trust between you both to be able to express those things, where faith in the relationship is strong enough and enough trust between you both exists for you to express the difficulties that you do have, and know that your relationship will remain solid even still.

 

But that is for the future. That is a long way away. Right now, I'm all out of advice. It is so hard to know what is right for another person, so mostly I just have questions for you, if you have the heart and strength right now to answer after what you have been through.

 

1) It seems like you have a tendency to really think and analyze things that could end up in rumination, how do you plan to give yourself the closure and avoid ending up on the rumination path--both in the short term and the long term?

 

2) It feels from what you say, like a big wound for you was the cruel and abrupt way she ended the relationship, that she just texted and wouldn't even hear you out. And I'm wondering if there is a way that it feels like only she can heal that wound? And if that is so, is there a way for you to find the kindness within yourself for yourself to heal that part of the wound, to counter that cruelty that she left with you?

 

3) I know self-care is usually thought of in terms of us women, and feminine things such as manicures and messages and face masks come to mind. But self-care is important for everybody. What things are you doing every day to care for yourself? What kind of things do you enjoy that bring you back to yourself (even if it is impossible or next to impossible to enjoy them right now)?

 

4)And perhaps I should have started with this one. What do you feel like you need from us? How can we help further your healing?

[PrettyEmily77]

Guys don't understsnd how that hurts a woman. And honestly it can be frustrating.

 

Let me ask, how many times did you tell them their actions will result in you breaking up if they don't change them? That's the frustration of most men - guys who feel it "was completely out of the blue. Everything seemed fine".

 

Women often don't vocalize how serious the issue is so the guy only finds out once it is too late.

 

I get being over sensitive due to past bad experiences, but if people would just communicate more relationships would have a munch stronger chance of surviving.

 

Well, a 'change or I leave' sort of ultimatum can only work once, and no amount of communication will do it if your partner doesn't ever 'get it'.

 

I don't know that it will be useful to Sal in his current thought process, or if relates to his ex GF's past experience (sorry if it doesn't, Sal), but to answer your question -

 

I didn't get to the point of a 'completely out of the blue' situation with a partner because it's not really my style but the incompatibilities had run too deep to reverse the course of action.

 

It also probably largely depends on the level of 'bad' experiences one has had - I don't know what Sal's ex GF's was, but mine was extreme both mentally and emotionally; it's not uncommon to have these experiences downgraded to 'can't have been that bad', 'surely you're making this up', 'it's been years now so snap out of it' by people who simply can't empathise or relate - that's not to say they aren't good people; just not a good match. These experiences can't be rationalised no matter how hard you try.

 

In my personal experience, it is extremely difficult to find a partner who will truly and genuinely take the time to appreciate and understand without judgement, being patronising or dismissive on some level, or making it a gender issue (which it isn't). Some people can be exceptionally good 'feelings' readers, some need a lot of prompting, and some will never get it.

 

Most of the trauma I have experienced I have been able to move on from because I have taken the time to self-introspect, and now have developed a next to zero tolerance approach for self-preservation, and I am much better equipped at detecting a major incompatibility earlier on and at acting on it; that's why I can relate to Sal's situation; the method was brutal but also ultimately time-saving.

 

Sorry for the TJ, Sal - hopefully you will find a more compatible partner in the future.

Edited February 22, 2017 by PrettyEmily77

[chix]

I hope you don't mind me continuing to discuss this. Sal please also feel free to tell me to stop typing about this here, as it's your thread, and this isn't necessarily of interest to you to read!

 

Usually when people make claims about "all women are.. ", they are talking about a handful of women they've known directly or indirectly. There are billions of us in the world. How many do you claim are as you said? Promise I am not trying to be compative. I just don't see how anyone can genuinely see things so black and white, and authentically claim "most are... ".

 

I don't like any version of is, be it "all [particular religion] people... ", "all [particular physical impairment] people... " and any other variation. Yes, I am a woman. I am also:

 

-a long-haired person who wears a dress or skirt with stilettos every day (I am wearing an headband with pointy black lace animal ears on it today, just for the silliness)

-a displaced person from a broken home

-a person who competes in triathlons

-a person who does all the DIY and the shopping at home

-a person who has lived in 10 or so countries

-the cook and baker at home

-a computer scientist

-a counsellor

-multi-lingual

-a volunteer

-a person who sweeps the entrace to the building and street where I live

-a person who bakes a cake for the birthdays of the elderly people I live near to

-a person who carries extra food to give to homeless people, and always has tissues to give to anyone I see crying

-politically active

-a person in a multi-cultural relationship, where we use 2 either of 2 languages, neither of which is my mother tongue

-and many more things besides

 

On any day, at any point, I might be:

 

-patient or impatient

-empathetic or not

-productive or lazy

-focused or distracted

-happy or falling apart

-and many more things besides

 

Women like me are what women are - variable, and subject to all kinds of circumstances and influences. As I lived in different countries, broke bread with different types of people, felt the warmth of the sun on my face or cold in my bones, and learn the significance of a particular word to a custom or culture, I found similarity on the whole - by that, I mean each type of stereotypical grouping is subject to variable people.

 

It's actually untrue that "most Irish people get drunk". It has become a stereotype, much like that "most Irish people eat potatoes" and so on. People tend to find 1 or 2 people who are [religion/skin colour etc etc], and then make claims about how everyone that fits that mould is. I hear a lot of ignorant steretypes being perpetuated, some of which make me cringe, because people clearly don't know the significance of the words they use. How many people do you know who are aware of the potato famine, or of the significance of divisions between people in the geography of Ireland? How many people who claim anything about Ireland and the people from that geographical location have ever lived there?

 

Sorry, if you find this a bit much to discuss here. Am happy to shut up, or to continue this over PM, if you feel wither is more appropriate.

[Eternal Sunshine]

Well, a 'change or I leave' sort of ultimatum can only work once, and no amount of communication will do it if your partner doesn't ever 'get it'.

 

I don't know that it will be useful to Sal in his current thought process, or if relates to his ex GF's past experience (sorry if it doesn't, Sal), but to answer your question -

 

I didn't get to the point of a 'completely out of the blue' situation with a partner because it's not really my style but the incompatibilities had run too deep to reverse the course of action.

 

It also probably largely depends on the level of 'bad' experiences one has had - I don't know what Sal's ex GF's was, but mine was extreme both mentally and emotionally; it's not uncommon to have these experiences downgraded to 'can't have been that bad', 'surely you're making this up', 'it's been years now so snap out of it' by people who simply can't empathise or relate - that's not to say they aren't good people; just not a good match. These experiences can't be rationalised no matter how hard you try.

 

In my personal experience, it is extremely difficult to find a partner who will truly and genuinely take the time to appreciate and understand without judgement, being patronising or dismissive on some level, or making it a gender issue (which it isn't). Some people can be exceptionally good 'feelings' readers, some need a lot of prompting, and some will never get it.

 

Most of the trauma I have experienced I have been able to move on from because I have taken the time to self-introspect, and now have developed a next to zero tolerance approach for self-preservation, and I am much better equipped at detecting a major incompatibility earlier on and at acting on it; that's why I can relate to Sal's situation; the method was brutal but also ultimately time-saving.

 

Sorry for the TJ, Sal - hopefully you will find a more compatible partner in the future.

 

I am not the type to leave out of the blue, unless it's only been a few dates. I usually communicate issues and ask for change. I tend to over-communicate and give too many chances in fact. The result has never been good. The changes that I need usually just come down to personal incompatibility. Even when the other person accommodates me, it's only short term at best and the other person feels like they are walking on eggshells or can't be who they naturally are. This tends to lead to having multiple exhaustive talks and slow disintegration of the relationship.

 

As I get older, I tend to see those signs of doom earlier and am more confident in leaving. In reality, all the talks I had in the past relationships only led to wasting a lot of time, emotional and mental energy on relationships that were no longer working. The end result was always the same. Maybe Sal's ex is at the point where she knows herself so well now that she doesn't waste that time.