nude pics red flag??

[zombiehead]

I'm here for help, opinions, I really appreciate it, I'm not here to stir people up. I do understand how you can get stir up from the stories on this forum. I was reading some of the stories here and I got stirred up so I stopped reading other stories, mine is all my brain can handle.

 

She wrote the letter in 2014, when I saved the camping trip list I saw a word document saved title DJ and I opened it. I never noticed it before, I guess my radar wasn't on until now. It seems I notice everything now, what's this, what's that ect ect.

 

I asked her about the letter and she said she wrote it for closure. I asked her if she ever loved me, she said that she loves me with all her heart, more than DJ more than anyone. She said she has a deep deep love for me, blah blah blah. She said that her breaking up with DJ was so we could meet, I was her destiny, more blah blah blah. Also I asked her why she would show our children a picture of him and tell them he was your old boyfriend. She started crying and said that she has loved no one more than me.

 

We have been able to discuss our issues very calmly, she is not yelling during our discussions. It is nice to have a calm matter of fact discussion and we have had many over the last few weeks. I told her that I'm not going to tolerate her yelling and getting loud, also I have been recording our discussions on a VAR which is absolutely legal and for my protection.

 

We have the camping trip to CO coming up and when we return I'm going to see if she will go spend a month at her parents house. She can take the kids for some of that time if she wants, I'm sure her parents would love to see them. I would like at least a week alone no wife no kids, I think I need some time for myself. Last night I watched that movie "bad moms" for the 1st time and the husband was caught having skype sex and I guess that is the modern way to cheat, isn't technology great!!!

[usa1ah]

none of us know that...she may very well love him in her own way...and it may not be the way we think it should be.

 

It doesn't really even matter...what matters is that ZH has decided that she is worth keeping.

 

and herein lies my issue.

 

If you know your spouse is all kinds of messed up...but you have made the decision to remain married...then tell me what good it is to continually come on line and tell strangers all the bad things about her knowing they are going to give you advice you disagree with? How is this healthy? What good does it do?

 

Look some folks told my husband to divorce me...some folks said i was showing remorse by my actions. There came a time when my husband stopped posting becasue it did not matter anymore. He made his decision and it really did not matter what anyone else thought.

 

ZH seems to enjoy revealing NEW bad things about his wife for everyone to discuss...he knows people are going to tell him how terrible she is...

 

whats the point?

 

If he has made his decision that he loves her and it doesn't matter what she has done...then why come here to stir people up? This is the part i do not understand

 

Has he really decided to keep her........

I think he is still deciding he can deal with it.

[Zona]

Just dropped into the thread to wish you strength moving forward. No one should have to go through what you are going through. I just want to say that I think you are handling it with resolve and integrity.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Has he really decided to keep her........

I think he is still deciding he can deal with it.

 

he has certainly indicated to us that he is not divorcing...he wants to keep his family in tact...

[usa1ah]

he has certainly indicated to us that he is not divorcing...he wants to keep his family in tact...

 

Only if he can get past this. If he can great for his wife. If he can't ZH and his kids will be fine. ZH has to do what is best for him and his kids. If he decides a month from now that he can't stay with his wife, I will support him 100%. If ZH decides he can and will stay with his wife, I will support him 100%.

 

This is his life not ours, but from what he keeps finding out I think is painting a very different person from who he thought his wife was. It will take time for him to get past this, if he can.

[Try]

You should either let go of what she did and move on to R or hold onto it and D her....where you are now is pergatory and you can't move forward or backward in this position.

Sorry but the OP does not have to follow anyone's timeline on deciding. It can take 3 to 5 years to heal, and anytime during that time he can decide that he will never heal and divorce. That is just the way it is. My Mom took years after my Dad's affair to divorce him. As much as she loved him and wanted to keep the family together, she just could not trust him again. The OP did not start this, but he alone gets to decide how and when it ends.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Sorry but the OP does not have to follow anyone's timeline on deciding. It can take 3 to 5 years to heal, and anytime during that time he can decide that he will never heal and divorce. That is just the way it is. My Mom took years after my Dad's affair to divorce him. As much as she loved him and wanted to keep the family together, she just could not trust him again. The OP did not start this, but he alone gets to decide how and when it ends.

 

no thats not really true either...she could make the decision to pull the plug. I dont think she will...but she certainly could.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Try, you are absolutely correct about ZH's right to choose when he or if he wants to D or R with his wife. He is the person wearing the shoe and he knows where it pinches. As you said it takes between 3 to 5 years for a person to heal and ZH is entitled to take that much time or even longer if he needs to. The point is that ZH has categorically stated at some point that he is NOT going to divorce his wife because he does not want to break up the family. Again, that is entirely his prerogative and no one can tell him that he is wrong to do so. The point in question that many of us have been highlighting is that he has been blowing hot and cold about his wife after he has taken that decision and is sometimes painting her as a blackguard and sometimes as being very cooperative, loving, and family oriented, wanting things to come back to the old normal before the discovery of her kinky on line behaviour and her cyber sex episodes with multiple men. He has periods when he spews venom at his wife and then, on the other hand, makes conciliatory noises about her. Even that may be acceptable behaviour on his part but does he have to continue to come to this forum and air his dirty laundry for everyone to comment on and be provoked into giving him advice which he conveniently ignores? His thread has run into 71 pages with no end in sight.

 

So many other betrayed spouses have come on here and discussed their problems, taken the advice that they needed from the collective wisdom of folks on this forum and then decided on a course of action to address their problems. After deciding what to do they have left the forum after maybe ten or twenty pages of writing about their problems. Not so our man. Whenever he senses that interest in his thread is waning he comes out with a fresh little nugget of information to keep the thread going. What is the point of all this fulmination? He has already decided he is not going to divorce his wife and he has categorically stated so. If that be so then he should be working on forgiving his wife and moving on. You may not agree with me and that is alright but my own thinking is that this thread will carry on till most people tire of it and fall off it due to sheer fatigue. Warm wishes.

[merrmeade]

Hi Try, you are absolutely correct about ZH's right to choose when he or if he wants to D or R with his wife. He is the person wearing the shoe and he knows where it pinches. As you said it takes between 3 to 5 years for a person to heal and ZH is entitled to take that much time or even longer if he needs to. The point is that ZH has categorically stated at some point that he is NOT going to divorce his wife because he does not want to break up the family. Again, that is entirely his prerogative and no one can tell him that he is wrong to do so. The point in question that many of us have been highlighting is that he has been blowing hot and cold about his wife after he has taken that decision and is sometimes painting her as a blackguard and sometimes as being very cooperative, loving, and family oriented, wanting things to come back to the old normal before the discovery of her kinky on line behaviour and her cyber sex episodes with multiple men. He has periods when he spews venom at his wife and then, on the other hand, makes conciliatory noises about her. Even that may be acceptable behaviour on his part but does he have to continue to come to this forum and air his dirty laundry for everyone to comment on and be provoked into giving him advice which he conveniently ignores? His thread has run into 71 pages with no end in sight.

 

So many other betrayed spouses have come on here and discussed their problems, taken the advice that they needed from the collective wisdom of folks on this forum and then decided on a course of action to address their problems. After deciding what to do they have left the forum after maybe ten or twenty pages of writing about their problems. Not so our man. Whenever he senses that interest in his thread is waning he comes out with a fresh little nugget of information to keep the thread going. What is the point of all this fulmination? He has already decided he is not going to divorce his wife and he has categorically stated so. If that be so then he should be working on forgiving his wife and moving on. You may not agree with me and that is alright but my own thinking is that this thread will carry on till most people tire of it and fall off it due to sheer fatigue. Warm wishes.

All due respect, JAG, but so the hell what? No one is forced to read his thread, advise or even care about zh. There's nothing in the LS guidelines that says you can't come here for discussion only. In fact, "to confront personal conflicts, promote participation in self-discovery and responsibility, and encourage collaboration between community participants on romantic and platonic interpersonal relationship issues" is about as open-ended as you can get.

 

I did ALL the things you've identified - and still do. Even remember a few people, expressing similar frustrations but by and large I felt grateful for the feedback. Restatements of my situation were helpful but nagging criticism about why I stayed were not. Granted, it didn't go on for close to a hundred pages, but that was my choice. I still need to spew venom from time to time when triggered by a memory or event - just spew. My negativity can be exaggerated but once dumped I can be more measured and sane discussing my partner.

 

I've said it before and will say it again: For whatever reason, whatever end, zh is processing here in the way that some people do in therapy. It's his prerogative; he owes us nothing. Venting about his wife on LS is totally within LS guidelines. People can always stop reading. In fact, I did stop reading for a while. Got bored that it was stalled, felt we were treading water. Came back and still there. But that's the voyeur in me. For zh it's very real and very present, and he gets something out of writing about it here.

 

And I totally disagree any BS "should be working on forgiving his wife and moving on." To me, it's about healing. To hell with forgiveness. It happens after healing happens. On its own, without being forced. In fact, it's far more full of grace to wake up to the realization that forgiveness just happened. No one did anything. That forgiveness is deep and healing for everyone imho.

 

My personal opinion is that there's nothing wrong with zh and don't even think it matters if I convince anyone or not. In fact, zh cracks me up how impervious he is to these aspects of his thread. This maelstrom of frustrated fixers just swirls around him without changing a thing. ZH just keeps on doing his zh thing completely indifferent to the number of pages, the scripts he's fed or admonishments!

 

It's hard just to listen without fixing, but others' problems don't need to be fixed on our schedule. I remember my dad used to get so upset, thinking he had to fix whatever problem he learned about in the family, but my mother could just listen without expressing judgment or expectation. So who do you think I called?

 

"What is the point of all this fulmination?" You said it yourself: "ZH is entitled to take that much time or even longer if he needs to."

[zombiehead]

Forgiveness seems impossible. R is hard because you stay with the source of your pain. Can you heal.when you are trying to R and not ready to forgive. I believe she is finally beginning to get it. The other night when we discussed the letter she wrote to the deceased ex bf back.in 2014 that I.just discovered we also discussed my mind movies in detail and she had the look in her eye of horror that I.had this images of what she was doing in my mind.

[QuietDan]

This last revelation / discovery is the most serious one. The basic emotional context of the meaning of the marriage and relationship from the beginning is now ambiguous. What is real? What is a lie? What is fantasy? Fantasies, obcessions, desire, sex, truth, love, hope, reality, ...

You are standing on the shifting ground of a troubled mind. What do you hope to build? What sort of foundation do you have to build on?

[Mrs. John Adams]

Forgiveness seems impossible. R is hard because you stay with the source of your pain. Can you heal.when you are trying to R and not ready to forgive. I believe she is finally beginning to get it. The other night when we discussed the letter she wrote to the deceased ex bf back.in 2014 that I.just discovered we also discussed my mind movies in detail and she had the look in her eye of horror that I.had this images of what she was doing in my mind.

 

Forgiveness and remorse are very linked....until she shows you remorse...and you once again feel safe in the relationship...it will be hard to forgive her.

 

she may never give you the remorse you need to forgive her...so you will have to decide...if she is capable of making you feel safe without remorse

[zombiehead]

It seems she may not be capable of the remorse I need. From my viewpoint it could be that she is more remorseful about getting caught than she is that she caused me pain. I did see a glimpse that she might be understanding what she has done when I explained the mind movies I have to battle daily. I told her that I have images in my mind of her having online sex with these men while I'm at work and our kids are at school, and that I picture her talking dirty over skype video and it did seem like she looked horrified that I had these thoughts. She believes that I can just simply think happy thoughts and that I shouldn't dwell on the mind movies and her betrayal. Easier said than done. She says to me, "that's what I do, I don't dwell on bad stuff if I did I would be depressed all day." However I gave her a clear detailed picture of my mind movies and I could see in her eyes that she understood and felt the horror I'm dealing with. She doesn't apologize unless I talk about the affair, I wish she would bring it up herself, on her own come up and tell me she is sorry. It's like she only says she sorry when I discuss it with her. I guess people who cheat want to avoid talking about it so apologizing on her own would be bring it up. If I was the cheater I would be jumping through hoops, apologizing on my own, asking how I can make it up, and she has done NONE of that.

Edited July 5, 2017 by zombiehead

[S2B]

Some people lack empathy and/or remorse... often referred to as a sociopath.

[BluesPower]

It seems she may not be capable of the remorse I need. From my viewpoint it could be that she is more remorseful about getting caught than she is that she caused me pain. I did see a glimpse that she might be understanding what she has done when I explained the mind movies I have to battle daily. I told her that I have images in my mind of her having online sex with these men while I'm at work and our kids are at school, and that I picture her talking dirty over skype video and it did seem like she looked horrified that I had these thoughts. She believes that I can just simply think happy thoughts and that I shouldn't dwell on the mind movies and her betrayal. Easier said than done. She says to me, "that's what I do, I don't dwell on bad stuff if I did I would be depressed all day." However I gave her a clear detailed picture of my mind movies and I could see in her eyes that she understood and felt the horror I'm dealing with. She doesn't apologize unless I talk about the affair, I wish she would bring it up herself, on her own come up and tell me she is sorry. It's like she only says she sorry when I discuss it with her. I guess people who cheat want to avoid talking about it so apologizing on her own would be bring it up. If I was the cheater I would be jumping through hoops, apologizing on my own, asking how I can make it up, and she has done NONE of that.

 

 

That may be the final issue... right there.

 

She may never be truly remorseful for what she has done. It is one of the main things that ended my marriage. And not just for her affairs.

 

I think, and I am thinking you really need to ask her this question, Does she believe that what she did is not really a big deal. I have thought this all along.

 

So, if you have not already, sit her down and calmly ask her, "Do you think what you did was a wrong thing to do? Do you understand that to me it is the same as you hooking up with guys in our bedroom while I am at work?"

 

Ask her those questions and let her answer no matter how long it takes. Just sit there and wait for an answer.

 

If she is unable to give you an articulate answer, way more than yes or no, then I don't know if she will ever understand.

 

And if you could answer this question, you gave her a polygraph and she passed it about physically cheating. I am thinking that that happened early on. Is that correct?

 

Try to hang in there...

[BaileyB]

Your wife's behavior - her impulse control, her awareness of consequences, her ability to take responsibility for the decisions she makes, her judgment - is that of a teenage girl. Of course, her ability to show remorse and understand empathy is in keeping with her emotional development.

 

As a teen is self centred and struggles to understand the feelings and thinking of another person, so does your wife. She got caught and she is embarrassed, and she would prefer not to think about it. By not talking and avoiding the subject, she doesn't have think about the consequences of her actions (the hurt she caused you), in much the same way that a child avoids dealing with the consequences of their behavior.

Edited July 5, 2017 by BaileyB

[road]

It seems she may not be capable of the remorse I need. From my viewpoint it could be that she is more remorseful about getting caught than she is that she caused me pain. I did see a glimpse that she might be understanding what she has done when I explained the mind movies I have to battle daily. I told her that I have images in my mind of her having online sex with these men while I'm at work and our kids are at school, and that I picture her talking dirty over skype video and it did seem like she looked horrified that I had these thoughts. She believes that I can just simply think happy thoughts and that I shouldn't dwell on the mind movies and her betrayal. Easier said than done. She says to me, "that's what I do, I don't dwell on bad stuff if I did I would be depressed all day." However I gave her a clear detailed picture of my mind movies and I could see in her eyes that she understood and felt the horror I'm dealing with. She doesn't apologize unless I talk about the affair, I wish she would bring it up herself, on her own come up and tell me she is sorry. It's like she only says she sorry when I discuss it with her. I guess people who cheat want to avoid talking about it so apologizing on her own would be bring it up. If I was the cheater I would be jumping through hoops, apologizing on my own, asking how I can make it up, and she has done NONE of that.

 

Dr Harley, has found that many WW's do not show remorse yet they

are still capable to recover their marriage, and have a more loving and

better marriage after the affair. It is in the way a woman's mind works.

 

Next the highlighted text:

 

This is your WW's way of being remorseful, she does not relive the

good times she had during her affair. Instead she just shuts them

down. Moving forward being a good wife.

 

A BS can not make the WS feel or react the way that they want

the WS to do. Her response is to shut down those memories for

they are bad ones better forgotten.

 

You refuse to forget them. You dwell on them every day.

It is one thing to trigger and let the trigger fade.

 

Ok to ask how to not trigger.

 

Purposefully to post on her gripping about your triggers is just

you keeping them fresh in your mind instead of fading with time.

[BluesPower]

Dr Harley, has found that many WW's do not show remorse yet they

are still capable to recover their marriage, and have a more loving and

better marriage after the affair. It is in the way a woman's mind works.

 

Next the highlighted text:

 

This is your WW's way of being remorseful, she does not relive the

good times she had during her affair. Instead she just shuts them

down. Moving forward being a good wife.

 

A BS can not make the WS feel or react the way that they want

the WS to do. Her response is to shut down those memories for

they are bad ones better forgotten.

 

You refuse to forget them. You dwell on them every day.

It is one thing to trigger and let the trigger fade.

 

Ok to ask how to not trigger.

 

Purposefully to post on her gripping about your triggers is just

you keeping them fresh in your mind instead of fading with time.

 

Road, I am not sure that I understand your point. OR this is one of the few times that we disagree.

 

That excerpt sounds to me like the kind of drivel that I was and have been talking about. Unless I am taking it out of context.

 

For me, and I think most people, the BS drives the bus and should. The WS comes clean and get their selves together or they are gone. But then that is just me.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

It seems she may not be capable of the remorse I need. From my viewpoint it could be that she is more remorseful about getting caught than she is that she caused me pain. I did see a glimpse that she might be understanding what she has done when I explained the mind movies I have to battle daily. I told her that I have images in my mind of her having online sex with these men while I'm at work and our kids are at school, and that I picture her talking dirty over skype video and it did seem like she looked horrified that I had these thoughts.

 

A WS will never fully grasp the full damage that they have caused to the BS. If that is your expectation, then you will be disappointed.

 

She believes that I can just simply think happy thoughts and that I shouldn't dwell on the mind movies and her betrayal. Easier said than done. She says to me, "that's what I do, I don't dwell on bad stuff if I did I would be depressed all day." However I gave her a clear detailed picture of my mind movies and I could see in her eyes that she understood and felt the horror I'm dealing with. She doesn't apologize unless I talk about the affair, I wish she would bring it up herself, on her own come up and tell me she is sorry. It's like she only says she sorry when I discuss it with her. I guess people who cheat want to avoid talking about it so apologizing on her own would be bring it up. If I was the cheater I would be jumping through hoops, apologizing on my own, asking how I can make it up, and she has done NONE of that.

 

WS are 100x more adept to "letting go" and not thinking about it. The human brain is wired to forget the bad things we have done, but hold tightly to the injustices done to us.

 

It is my opinion that the WS can move on because during the affair they were in complete control of the situation and decisions; know all of the details, motives, etc that the BS does not have. It's easier to let go when the WS doesn't have any unanswered questions or lacks the full picture of what transpired. Meanwhile, the BS is blindsided with 100s of What's, Why's, and How Come's?

[Just a Guy]

Hi Merrmeade, thank you for responding to my post. I guess our perspectives may differ but that does not mean they are mutually exclusive. My basic point here has been that ZH had categorically stated that he was not going to divorce his wife as he did not want to split up his family. If that be his intention then reconciliation is a given. Again if that be true then what does he gain by repeatedly talking badly about her? I would think that the reconciliation package would also involve 'forgiving' her as without that the reconciliation would fail. Also, as I understand it forgiveness is for the BS and not the WS. By forgiving, ZH would be able to give up his resentment and anger towards his wife. As long as he holds on to these his pain will continue and he will keep torturing himself with all the negativity that accompanies these negative emotions. If he is not ready to forgive her he should NOT state that he is NOT going to divorce his WS. In an ironic way it is like having your cake and eating it too.

 

I also believe that if he continues with the way he expresses his feelings here he is soon going to reach a point of diminishing returns. As I said before he is regularly able to turn up something new to beat her with. I would not be surprised if he would come up with something new he discovers a couple of pages along his thread. However, the essence of his diatribe against his wife will be the same. What would be the point of flogging a dead horse? It would not suddenly jump up and start running.

 

Anyway, I guess I will take your advice and stop posting on this thread. This is going to go on for a long time. There was another guy by the moniker of No sleep whose thread petered out in a couple of pages. People just didn't seem interested in his problem. I wonder why? Warm wishes.

[zombiehead]

Thank you for the responses. She is stubborn, she rarely likes to admit when she is wrong or apologies. I learned this about her when were dating, I was attracted to that about her personality. I like a firecracker.

 

Another problem I'm having is the pride factor. R with a person that betrayed me hurts my pride. If we were dating it would be over immediately. Now with how long we have been together and kids and the future we have built it makes it more complicated to just walk away.

Edited July 6, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language~T

[S2B]

A WS will never fully grasp the full damage that they have caused to the BS. If that is your expectation, then you will be disappointed.

 

 

 

WS are 100x more adept to "letting go" and not thinking about it. The human brain is wired to forget the bad things we have done, but hold tightly to the injustices done to us.

 

It is my opinion that the WS can move on because during the affair they were in complete control of the situation and decisions; know all of the details, motives, etc that the BS does not have. It's easier to let go when the WS doesn't have any unanswered questions or lacks the full picture of what transpired. Meanwhile, the BS is blindsided with 100s of What's, Why's, and How Come's?

 

I'd like the evidence that this is the way the brain is wired.

 

Can you provide your link to support this as a fact?

[S2B]

Thank you for the responses. She is stubborn, she rarely likes to admit when she is wrong or apologies. I learned this about her when were dating, I was attracted to that about her personality. I like a firecracker.

 

Another problem I'm having is the pride factor. R with a person that betrayed me hurts my pride. If we were dating it would be over immediately. Now with how long we have been together and kids and the future we have built it makes it more complicated to just walk away.

 

You believe that divorcing her is going to be a bad thing.

 

I thought that too 13 years ago. I had been with my - then husband - 23 years.

 

I NEEDED my self respect - so I divorced him... I was devastated at that time. How could he cheat when I was such a great wife? But he did...and it wasn't the first time - so he left me no choice.

 

Now, 13 years later - I'm SO glad I did - I have my peace of mind now... no more wondering! And life couldn't be more amazing!

 

You see... it's not always a bad things to divorce! You gotta do what's right for yourself! If it means swallowing your self respect to stay...I don't suggest that.

 

Do what's best -so that YOU feel good about YOURSELF!

 

Don't ever allow someone else to determine what's right for you! Dig deep to determine what your self respect looks like for you.

Edited July 6, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I'd like the evidence that this is the way the brain is wired.

 

Can you provide your link to support this as a fact?

 

It's human nature. We offer ourselves grace much easier than we offer it to others that have wronged us. If you can't see that in every day life, then there's not much else I can say to you.

[Maraud3r]

You should look up the sunk cost fallacy. It seems to be very much in effect here. You are effectively throwing good investment (time, money, feelings, commitment etc) after bad and already wasted in an attempt to recover them.

 

The reason she shows no remorse is that she appears to have none. She is NOT acting like a person who did anything wrong, you yourself said she just "doesn't think bad thoughts". She sees what she has done as a minor blip at best given how quickly she got over it and how little she seems to think it impacted you.

 

From your stories I don't think she looked horrified because you told her how you feel and she felt bad for you. The only times she reacted horrified and mortified were whenever there was a risk of consequences. Of you actually ending things and dumping her. Look through your own posts, unless you communicate to her that you see this as actual cheating she barely even react and might be outright petulant about it "firecracker". Only when you show you consider this a grave thing does she change her tune, however she gets quickly over it when there are no actual consequences.

 

I am still thinking you are wasting your time and effort here. And given how little remorse or change of behaviour she shows outside of actual threat of consequences. I doubt she will not relapse sooner than later.

Edited July 6, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator