Always questions

[AnneP]

It might be that you're different from most people. I met my wife in college 31 years ago. I remember the first time we kissed, the first time we fooled around, and multiple times after that. Where we were, etc. It's the things they taught me in class that I have trouble remembering!

 

25 years ago I was a teenager residing in a foreign country and I have so many memories of that time in my life. I don't remember details and have forgotten people I went to school with. They have friended me on Facebook and say things that lead me to believe we had a decent friendship and yet I don't even remember them.

 

I met my first love there who was a native of that country. I hardly remember details of that relationship. Everyone is different and recalls things differently.

[ejh]

Thank you Understand50 and somanymistakes.

 

I will say that I probably would not be in the situation that I am if told the truth from the start. With that being said I do not wish to change my situation now. I am in love with my wife and always will be. I do however have a nagging to get to the truth as best that I can.

[ejh]

Also wanted to thank Mrs. John Adams, Aliveagain and Owl6118.

 

Thanks for all the other comments as well. If you notice from my posting history it is not often and I just need some perspective from others.

 

I was told the a very simplified version of the affair. We were able to get through it and what I felt was move on. Twenty years later the shame and guilt were more than she could bare. My wife at that time tried to come clean to the best of her ability. Now and again something new comes up. I do not question constantly, but I do still have questions. It has been a rough couple of years. I think my wife and I are closer and have a stronger relationship than we have ever had.

 

Thanks again for your perspectives.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Also wanted to thank Mrs. John Adams, Aliveagain and Owl6118.

 

Thanks for all the other comments as well. If you notice from my posting history it is not often and I just need some perspective from others.

 

I was told the a very simplified version of the affair. We were able to get through it and what I felt was move on. Twenty years later the shame and guilt were more than she could bare. My wife at that time tried to come clean to the best of her ability. Now and again something new comes up. I do not question constantly, but I do still have questions. It has been a rough couple of years. I think my wife and I are closer and have a stronger relationship than we have ever had.

 

Thanks again for your perspectives.

 

you love her....that's the bottom line

 

and she has been loving and faithful all these years. Questioning is not a bad thing....and you deserve answers. But if they will not change who she is in your eyes and heart....then don't let the questions become more important than the relationship.

 

I cannot undo what I did....but I have lived these last 33 years trying to make it up to him. I can't....it's impossible....but i am grateful for the chance.

[Lady2163]

I was going to write a similar post as owl.

 

30 years ago I went through 17 weeks of sheer Hell. It was Army basic training and my advanced school. I went through this with 40 other women. It was intense. With the advent of Facebook many of us are in contact.

 

We were together for 4 months, 24 hours a day. Most of us will say it is the hardest thing we've ever done. We were filled with despair, it was traumatic.

 

Yet, there are things I don't remember. There are things I remember differently than others. I never thought I would forget cadences that we sang over and uber while carrying a heavy weighted pack.

 

So, yes as significant as having an affair is, I can see where you'd forget details or details change. One defense mechanism that helps us heal ismthat sometimes we change how things happen or tell ourselves it happened a certain way when it didn't.

[WilyWill]

25 years ago I was a teenager residing in a foreign country and I have so many memories of that time in my life. I don't remember details and have forgotten people I went to school with. They have friended me on Facebook and say things that lead me to believe we had a decent friendship and yet I don't even remember them.

 

I met my first love there who was a native of that country. I hardly remember details of that relationship. Everyone is different and recalls things differently.

 

Do you remember the nature of the sexual activity in that romantic relationship? Do you have an idea of how far it went, how many times? Whether you did things with him that you never did with your current partner? How long the relationship lasted? I bet you do.

 

These are the kinds of things OP wants to know. When a wayward spouse says "I don't remember" I'll bet it's a lie 90% of the time.

[Owl6118]

These are the kinds of things OP wants to know. When a wayward spouse says "I don't remember" I'll bet it's a lie 90% of the time.

 

OP actually said intricate details. I am not sure he has shared exactly what details are bothering him the most. Some may be chronology, not sex acts, or establishing where he was and what he was doing wbile the affair went on. Unless he chooses to tell us, and he seems to be a pretty private person, I don't know that we should assume what exactly he wishes she would remeber and could or would tell him.

 

I do agree with you to a point. Reviewing partners from decades ago before my marriage I can recall most major firsts, thise sexual acts that were different in some way because they were firsts with that person or firsts in my life, or were specially remarkable for intensity of some kind, generally where (whose apartment or what town a hotel was in) most sex took place, and a general chronology that I could nail down harder if I worked at it. This level of detail should be recoverable.

 

But if you asked me to recount every physical encounter with, say, my 1992-93 girlfriend, I could not do it. I remember the signficant ones and loosely, to within maybe plus or minus two weeks, when they were. But to know how many encounters, forgetting none, and recount each encounter, with exactly what we did, and where, and get them in correct chronological order?

 

She is actually a friend of mine still, and I doubt we could do it if we both put our minds to it, not that we will be doing any such thing.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Owl6118

[AnneP]

Do you remember the nature of the sexual activity in that romantic relationship? Do you have an idea of how far it went, how many times? Whether you did things with him that you never did with your current partner? How long the relationship lasted? I bet you do.

 

These are the kinds of things OP wants to know. When a wayward spouse says "I don't remember" I'll bet it's a lie 90% of the time.

 

I remember the night we met (not the exact date) but not much else from that night. I don't remember how long the relationship lasted, but it was probably about two years. Sexually, not much to remember because we were so young. I do not recall going certain places with him for example: we were chatting on Facebook in a group chat with a bunch of friends and he was talking about this one time we drove down to the coast. I don't ever remember making a trip to the coast with him. Maybe I'm just different.

[somanymistakes]

Do you remember the nature of the sexual activity in that romantic relationship? Do you have an idea of how far it went, how many times? Whether you did things with him that you never did with your current partner? How long the relationship lasted? I bet you do.

 

I have entire past relationships where I can barely remember the 'nature of the sexual activity' at all.

 

I mean, I can make a rough guess about what things we did and didn't do because I suspect I would remember it if we'd done anything really outlandish or if he'd refused to do something I thought was normal. I know we had sex, but I don't actually remember it at all. I don't remember what it was like. I have no idea whatsoever about how often in general, or how many times in total.

 

People's memories are not perfect even in the short term. Long-term, it's incredibly easy to mislead people into remembering things that never happened.

[Owl6118]

OP, your story really got under my skin. Obviously in part becuase it reminds me of my own reconstruction of a part of my distant past recently. That was not a story that involved infidelity, but it did involve hurts and feelings of betrayal that had shaped my life and that I wanted to understand and exorcise as best I could.

 

Your situation also interests me professionally. I was trained as a historian and thus reconstructing the past was once my core professional skillset.

 

This is what I would recommend.

 

First of all, think hard about what it is you really want to understand. Be clear in your mind about what it is that you most wish to recover. Be frank with yourself. Is it chronology--precise dates and times, so that you can compare what your real life was to what you through it was? Is it specific sexual acts? Is it gaslighting--you want to know how the mechanics of lies and concealment worked and why you did not detect them? Reflect on this without judgement. What you want is what you want, but be as clear as you can. "I want everything" is a justifiable reaction, but an emotional one. If you want to do this having a sense of your own priorities about what is more and less important to you will help greatly.

 

Second, ask yourself seriously if you are in a place where you can go into this without needed to react with immediate emotion of judgement. This process will bring up strong feelings, but those feelings are the enemy of accurate reconstruction. Can you work on this as a dispassionate project? Yes, you will have to deal with the emotions afterwards. But can you commit to going through the process as a forensic investigation, reserving processing for afterwards?

 

Third, and very bluntly, your wife needs to be on board with this. Is SHE in a place where she thinks she could do this with an open mind and heart? You can say to her that you have been thinking about memory, you have researched it, you have gotten various opinions and you know memory is malliable and fragmentary. But that you still need to reconstruct this time to give you the best chance of healing. And you want to do this with her, without judgement. To understand, however imperfectly, what actually happened and in what order.

 

She may not be able to commit to this. And whether you are in a place where you can sincerely make it safe for her to do this may be important. If you are not be honest with yourself about that.

 

Assuming the answers to all the above indicate that it is a good time to proceed with this, the next things I would suggest is a homework assignment for you independent of her. Reconstuct your own life in the relevant period in as granular detail as you can. I think you will find that this is a whole lot harder than you imagine. Start a timeline with bullet points. Significant events in your life such as job changes, promotions or demotions, family births and deaths, events involving your children if you had any at the time. Work hard to tie each significant event to a documentable date. You may remember you changed jobs in spring, but was it March or May? Or was it really January? You may be very, very surprised when you really dig at how flexible your memory is compared to documented evidence.

 

Memory works much, much more by association than by chronology. After you make your first timeline, go through it again. For anything not tied to a date, ask yourself what was going on at the same time of this event. Do you follow politics? Are you passionate about a sports franchise? Get a timeline of political events or events and stats for your team. You will find you can say "I don't remember when this was but I know it was a week after the invaision of Kuwait, or the Ken Griffy trade, or shortly after my sister got married. Work by association until you can get to something you can tie to a hard date. You will end up narrowing things down to a window at least. Again, if you do this, I am pretty sure you will be repeatedly surprised that things in your memory, when nailed down, did not occur in the exact order or exact relationship you remember them occuring in.

 

I suggest this for two reasons. First, eventually you will interleave what you learn from your wife into this timeline. But second and actually more important, I think it will help you be empathetic and suspend judgement when it becomes your wife's turn. You will understand better that even very important things get remembered out of order, or out of context. You will also get a better gut sense of what is and is not easy to remember and easy to verify. It will help you sense the difference between evaision or denial, and simple fallability.

 

After you have worked on this for a while, it will be time to ask your wife to retell you the story of her affair.

 

Let her tell it all the way through, without questions or interruptions, from beginning to end. Have a discussion before about what it is you would like most to know, but once she starts, let it flow without any interruption. Record this session if she is willing.

 

Take a break. This is going to be traumatic for both of you and will bring up a lot of questions and strong emotions. Do not process these now.

 

After some time has passed look over the transcript with an eye to what your strongest questions are. Where are the gaps that bother you the most. What is not there that you want to know. What is there that does not match your (now much improved) memory of that period.

 

Work through it again with her, again, as much as you humanly can, without judgement or anger or recrimination. This is a forensic investigation.

 

Coach her in the techniques you have practiced. If a particular assignation is significant, but she can't remember when exactly it was, ask open-ended what was going on in life at the time? Was it after cousin's death or graduation, was it after THanksgiving or before? Be judicious about what you want nailed down, but if you and she work on it you will be able to tighten it up considerably. And she will remember other things in the process. Again, all through this it has to be safe for her to do so. As strong as your emotions are, if you release them in the process, as either rage or hurt of hammer-fast prosecutor style follow up questions, this will all break down and not work.

 

Go through this and you will be left with as accurate a reconstruction as you are going to get. It will reveal a lot. And it will still have many, many gaps. Some things that hurt will hurt less. Other totally new hurts will be discovered. It will not be easy.

 

You will have a lot to process afterwards.

 

In sum, I am not RECOMMENDING you do this. There are pros and cons and I think you should think seriously about what you really need. But if this is what you need, this methodology is how I would go about it based on my experience.

[road]

Classic BH.

He needed all of his questions answered.

His WW was able to trickle and or put him off.

Problem is whether 10 years or 35 years or more the BH will never

rest until he gets his questions answered.

 

 

Now many years later the WW claims she cannot remember.

Well how is the BH to believe his WW not being able to remember

when she was not honest with her BH on D day and every year

since then?

 

 

As far as the BH all he can assume is his WW is still in full damage

control mode. Recovery stalled, marriage is in limp mode, WW will not

do or give her BH what he needs, the full truth to get past her past.

 

 

Now taking Mrs Madison at face value she told her BH all. She now 30+

years later can't remember a lot of detail. I will believe her. I bet you

that her BH has not forgotten anything that she told him about the affair.

 

 

Though Mrs M is only one example. I have seen WW claim on others threads to not remember anything about her affair not even the OM name to WW remember everything 30 years later about her affair.

 

 

So how does a BH believe that his WW cannot remember all of her

affair? How does he know she is not lying now as she did 30+ years

ago?

[Just a Guy]

Hi ejh, sorry you are stewing in the gravy of uncertainty so many years after the D Day of your wife's affair. If you really want to know the details then one possibility is tho have your wife hypnotized and ask her the questions you want and she will answer those accurately, because the subconscious mind remembers each and every detail of our lives with photographic clarity. However, whether such a method is even ethically possible is the million dollar question. I doubt any hypnotist would oblige you. I guess the best thing for you would be to accept whatever version your mind is picturing for you and go with that. If the picture you have is anathema to you and you want to divorce your wife tomorrow then do so. Otherwise if the picture is one you can live with then stop worrying and start living as Dale Carnegie would have said. No point losing sleep over something g you cannot change or control. You either divorce or live out your life with your wife by your side. There is no third option. Warm wishes.

[drifter777]

OP, your story really got under my skin. Obviously in part becuase it reminds me of my own reconstruction of a part of my distant past recently. That was not a story that involved infidelity, but it did involve hurts and feelings of betrayal that had shaped my life and that I wanted to understand and exorcise as best I could.

 

I'm sure the betrayal you experienced was painful but until you've dealt with infidelity - as a man - you cannot understand the depth of this particular trauma. It doesn't mean you cannot address the subject and contribute helpful, meaningful feedback but it does mean that you lack true empathy having not experienced infidelity first hand.

 

Your situation also interests me professionally. I was trained as a historian and thus reconstructing the past was once my core professional skillset.

 

Not sure how this is relevant. I am a trained engineer and problem solving is one of my core professional skills. The problem is that real-life is messy and all people and situations are unique in many ways. There are a set of core truths and actions that have proven to help many people but there are no absolutes and one cannot blindly apply a set of principals learned in one case to another.

 

OP: we all understand that this is your life and the decisions you make have to be the right ones for you. Most of us post our feedback based on our personal experiences making them precious nuggets for you to consider. That's it.

Edited February 24, 2017 by drifter777

[drifter777]

Hi ejh, sorry you are stewing in the gravy of uncertainty so many years after the D Day of your wife's affair. If you really want to know the details then one possibility is tho have your wife hypnotized and ask her the questions you want and she will answer those accurately, because the subconscious mind remembers each and every detail of our lives with photographic clarity. However, whether such a method is even ethically possible is the million dollar question. I doubt any hypnotist would oblige you. I guess the best thing for you would be to accept whatever version your mind is picturing for you and go with that. If the picture you have is anathema to you and you want to divorce your wife tomorrow then do so. Otherwise if the picture is one you can live with then stop worrying and start living as Dale Carnegie would have said. No point losing sleep over something g you cannot change or control. You either divorce or live out your life with your wife by your side. There is no third option. Warm wishes.

 

Hypnotism? Really? Why not a Ouija board?

 

I took a 12 week Dale Carnegie class and it was excellent. It provided the underpinnings of "Making Friends & Influencing People" by focusing on memory tricks & lots of public speaking. It's a great course. However it is business & career oriented and has nothing to do with how to deal with traumatic life events.

 

What you suggest is what I refer to as the "Scarlett O'Hara coping mechanism" referencing the main character in "Gone With the Wind". Whenever she was faced with a painful decision she just said "I can't think about that right now. If I do, I'll go crazy. I'll think about that tomorrow". The problem with this, of course, is that kicking the can down the road doesn't solve the problem. It just delays facing reality and, usually, things don't get easier or simpler to solve just because time passes.

 

OP: Can you just accept that your wife is lying and come to peace with this fact? If not then you know what you have to do and it's simply a matter of deciding what path you are going to take to find that peace.

[ejh]

Thanks everyone. It helps to have different view points. I wish Loveshack would have been around 25 years ago. I think some of you are frustrated that I am still around but with no help you do the best you can. I have lived with infidelity for 25 years and will keep on moving forward. It just remains that I will always want the truth no matter how many years go by.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Drifter, the hypnotism suggestion was made tongue in cheek. Not really serious about it. It was more to highlight the futility of trying to get answers which by rights should have been pursued in the immediate aftermath of DDay. At this stage I am certain the OP's wife would not remember the details that he is seeking. The Dale Carnegie reference was taken out of context as I know what he had to say in his book had nothing to do with the problem that OP is facing. However the title of the book appeared to be appropriate to his situation. He does need to stop worrying and start living. I think decisiveness is necessary here. The OP needs to decide whether he is 'in' or 'out' of his marriage and take actions accordingly. I agree with your analogy that kicking the can down the road is not going to help him. It only postpones the problem which will pop it's head again a little later. From what ejh is saying I think he is resigned to the latter situation.