Was I silly to turn this down?

[normal person]

There is doing what you need and doing what you hate because you think it will get you what you need.

 

There is accomplishing and there is not accomplishing. The level of difficulty or discomfort it takes to accomplish is more or less irrelevant to the market. It has no sympathy. Everyone has different circumstances and it does no good to complain about them. No one will give you the benefit of the doubt. You either do something, or you don't.

 

Because I wont go sit in a bar, I am unwilling?

 

Yes, that is basically the definition of unwilling. You won't do things you should.

 

Perhaps a poll is needed here to determine where people actually find success because I find it doubtful everyone picks up girlfriends at bars and clubs.

 

Not everyone does, but lots of people do. It's certainly the most conducive venue for it. Lots of single people looking to meet people and socialize while they drink and become uninhibited. Of all the women I've met offline in the past few years, 75% were at bars. But of course, it's stupid to go to bars, you'd know better than me.

 

You wanted your best life so just did what everyone else does, that's fine it worked for you but tell me this before you wanted this supposed best life what sort of success did you have, some success, no success. If I was a betting person I'd guess you enjoyed success even before you decided to get this "best life". It may surprise you, I have met guys who preach the same things you do BUT NONE of them ever struggled ever which brings new meaning to "take it from whence it comes".

 

I was on a decent career path in Hollywood that I ended up hating. I started over and turned a few thousand dollars into a successful business. Between the time I left Hollywood and the time it took to live off the business (several years), I was emasculated. I didn't have anything to hang my hat on. Confidence was critically low until I just put my nose to the grindstone endlessly until I profited. Once that started happening, there was a night and day difference in my attitude, outlook, and esteem. Once I had the hard evidence to bolster myself and realize that I actually could provide for myself and others on my own terms and not be owned by someone else, I became a man where I was previously just a boy. Once you can prove to people that you get what you want rather than just aspire to, your life changes.

 

 

Where you are wrong is by not doing those things I don't forfeit any right at all,

 

Ok, keep making excuses for yourself and see where it gets you, then.

 

I merely point out an indisputable fact that its crowd mentality, that people go somewhere they don't like to try and find a partner to me is just staggeringly follow the crowd like. Then again I am someone who has never followed the crowd at anything.

 

Yeah, it's crowd mentality. If you want a partner, there are certain things you might have to do or certain norms you might have to conform to. If you choose to opt out, that's within your right -- but don't complain about it. You know what you have to do, you just don't want to do it. You want to do it on your terms even though that hasn't brought you any luck yet. Your refusal to adapt won't do you any favors, as it's yet to.

 

I like they way you continue to paint utopia when there are millions of examples of people who never get anyone

 

Millions, yes, that sounds large given that there are billions of people on Earth. The majority still get married.

 

and MANY I am sure try the self same things you tout here, if the world you portray is perfect why are there pay sites and suchlike. You portray perfection but it is, its simply not, to tell everyone there is someone for them totally ignores a reality.

 

I never said anything about perfection. In fact I'm usually the one on here telling people how harsh the world actually is. My point is this: you'll never get anything you want if you don't at least try, fight, learn, adapt, etc. Can you do all those things and still not get the desired result? Yes. But if you do them, and you have the tenacity to stick with it rather than just give up at the first sign of difficulty and make excuses, you have far better odds of success. The one certainty is that you will miss every shot you don't take.

 

I prefer to live in reality where realistically some never find success, in your world you will simply blame it on them rather than the entire way dating seems to work. Yes, you cant change it but you can acknowledge its fundamentally flawed.

 

You make it sound like fate, like things are not within peoples' control, when they most definitely are. What a defeatist attitude. "The way dating seems to work" is out of your control, yes. So, given that, you can choose to try and succeed under the given circumstances, or decide that they aren't fair and never try. If you can suck it up and deal with some discomfort, you have a chance to get what you want as billions of people do. If you refuse to compete, fine, but you won't get your reward. You can adapt, or die. You've chosen not to adapt.

 

You say I should ask for advice. Ok I have done this once before and let me give you the gist of what it was

1: You must go out and meet people

2: Make friends

3: Be outgoing

4: Dress like this

Where have I heard all this before. 1, 2 and 3 are problematic. I cant make guy friends never mind lady ones, ok I might have one now but its based on work nothing more. I am shy, yes on my day I can be outgoing but those days are quite rare.

 

Keep trying and learning from your mistakes until you're successful at it. Read psychology books. Watch instructional youtube videos. Anything is more constructive than saying "I can't."

 

 

I do play the hand I have dealt, its not a one which appeals to many if any which I guess is the reality of it. Probably the only way I can see to change it is to work on being totally superficial and then see what happens but I suspect that will only take me so far.

 

I never said be totally superficial. I said you have to do things that might be uncomfortable to get the best odds of success, like not turning your nose up at bars and socializing, and having the strength to conquer fears.

 

Reality is all/most of this is my own fault and perhaps if I had read the above at 16-20 I would have been able to change things around a bit when I had more opportunities. As it stands nobody is interested in a 33yo virgin who has never dated, you simply cannot beat the societal stigma attached to that.

 

I'm sure there are women out there willing to overlook that, however I doubt there are any who are keen to overlook the excuses, bitterness, fearfulness, and unwillingness to do anything meaningful about it. You're scared to do anything difficult -- that's why you women won't look at you favorable, not because of your age or your virginity. The stigma of having a problem and not adapting to the circumstances in order to change it is a far greater stigma than the one you perceive.

 

What you don't realize is that if you just rose up out of your chair and said "NO MORE!" and from that moment faced all your fears, accepted all the discomfort of it, climbed your mental hurdles, stopped making excuses, applied what you learned, and reveled in the process, and even were open about it to others, that would be incredibly attractive. You've chosen to accept defeat and not fight, and that's absolute panty-drying kryptonite to women and most people in general.

 

There is a simple adage I think you could benefit from: "no pain, no gain."

[ZA Dater]

There is accomplishing and there is not accomplishing. The level of difficulty or discomfort it takes to accomplish is more or less irrelevant to the market. It has no sympathy. Everyone has different circumstances and it does no good to complain about them. No one will give you the benefit of the doubt. You either do something, or you don't.

 

 

 

Yes, that is basically the definition of unwilling. You won't do things you should.

 

 

 

Not everyone does, but lots of people do. It's certainly the most conducive venue for it. Lots of single people looking to meet people and socialize while they drink and become uninhibited. Of all the women I've met offline in the past few years, 75% were at bars. But of course, it's stupid to go to bars, you'd know better than me.

 

 

 

I was on a decent career path in Hollywood that I ended up hating. I started over and turned a few thousand dollars into a successful business. Between the time I left Hollywood and the time it took to live off the business (several years), I was emasculated. I didn't have anything to hang my hat on. Confidence was critically low until I just put my nose to the grindstone endlessly until I profited. Once that started happening, there was a night and day difference in my attitude, outlook, and esteem. Once I had the hard evidence to bolster myself and realize that I actually could provide for myself and others on my own terms and not be owned by someone else, I became a man where I was previously just a boy. Once you can prove to people that you get what you want rather than just aspire to, your life changes.

 

 

 

 

Ok, keep making excuses for yourself and see where it gets you, then.

 

 

 

Yeah, it's crowd mentality. If you want a partner, there are certain things you might have to do or certain norms you might have to conform to. If you choose to opt out, that's within your right -- but don't complain about it. You know what you have to do, you just don't want to do it. You want to do it on your terms even though that hasn't brought you any luck yet. Your refusal to adapt won't do you any favors, as it's yet to.

 

 

 

Millions, yes, that sounds large given that there are billions of people on Earth. The majority still get married.

 

 

 

I never said anything about perfection. In fact I'm usually the one on here telling people how harsh the world actually is. My point is this: you'll never get anything you want if you don't at least try, fight, learn, adapt, etc. Can you do all those things and still not get the desired result? Yes. But if you do them, and you have the tenacity to stick with it rather than just give up at the first sign of difficulty and make excuses, you have far better odds of success. The one certainty is that you will miss every shot you don't take.

 

 

 

You make it sound like fate, like things are not within peoples' control, when they most definitely are. What a defeatist attitude. "The way dating seems to work" is out of your control, yes. So, given that, you can choose to try and succeed under the given circumstances, or decide that they aren't fair and never try. If you can suck it up and deal with some discomfort, you have a chance to get what you want as billions of people do. If you refuse to compete, fine, but you won't get your reward. You can adapt, or die. You've chosen not to adapt.

 

 

 

Keep trying and learning from your mistakes until you're successful at it. Read psychology books. Watch instructional youtube videos. Anything is more constructive than saying "I can't."

 

 

 

 

I never said be totally superficial. I said you have to do things that might be uncomfortable to get the best odds of success, like not turning your nose up at bars and socializing, and having the strength to conquer fears.

 

 

 

I'm sure there are women out there willing to overlook that, however I doubt there are any who are keen to overlook the excuses, bitterness, fearfulness, and unwillingness to do anything meaningful about it. You're scared to do anything difficult -- that's why you women won't look at you favorable, not because of your age or your virginity. The stigma of having a problem and not adapting to the circumstances in order to change it is a far greater stigma than the one you perceive.

 

What you don't realize is that if you just rose up out of your chair and said "NO MORE!" and from that moment faced all your fears, accepted all the discomfort of it, climbed your mental hurdles, stopped making excuses, applied what you learned, and reveled in the process, and even were open about it to others, that would be incredibly attractive. You've chosen to accept defeat and not fight, and that's absolute panty-drying kryptonite to women and most people in general.

 

There is a simple adage I think you could benefit from: "no pain, no gain."

 

No, I will rather work at other things, enjoy the small victories, feel good about maybe making someone smile, perhaps they enjoy being around me. I would far rather do those things than sit in some bar or club where everything is loud you cant really communicate with anyone anyway. Ask yourself why with all the advancements in society people still need alcohol to apparently have fun.

 

 

It is absolutely fate, there is enough evidence to suggest this is true in many circumstances. You cannot make someone like you, this much I know is true because I have done it many a time and its never worked, no matter how a good a foot I put forward, people either like you are they don't but mostly people just like what you can give them more than any personality trait. The way people meet is usually not pre planned.

 

 

When it comes to preaching about not giving up you are preaching to the converted however I also think if something is making you unhappy why keep pursuing it?

 

 

I think its valid to complain about the stigma society gives anyone who dares not conform, do you not think this a fair point?

 

 

Perhaps its telling that the people I tend to like don't conform in some way, perhaps I simply seek out these people because the odds are a bit better, compatibility would be better, rejection apparently less likely but it happens anyway.

 

 

I have said it before but confidence is the hardest thing to find and its lifeblood is success. Just some can change many people and this I have seen with my own eyes. When do I feel most confident, doing things I love and partaking in hobbies.

 

 

At the moment I simply don't have anyone to chase. I have K I see from time to time at events and that's almost enough, there is the odd text banter and expectations aren't there I just like having her around and for a few hours a month I don't feel so lonely and get a slice of something I really like.

 

 

You say I don't do what I should, maybe I'll got to a club on my own and see how many minutes I can stomach. How valuable this is going to be I have no idea.

 

 

Inherently I guess I just know I don't stack up to what's out there so its almost pointless trying because I just get more the same over and over again. Not a heck of a lot I can do about a lack of experience unless I shop down or do pay dates, the former doesn't interest me and the latter is a morally dicey area which is also a no go.

 

 

It is what it is really.

[GemmaUK]

You have an overwhelming amount of reasons and excuses.

 

Validate yourself and just give up.

I think you'd be happier if you did.

[normal person]

No, I will rather work at other things, enjoy the small victories, feel good about maybe making someone smile, perhaps they enjoy being around me. I would far rather do those things than sit in some bar or club where everything is loud you cant really communicate with anyone anyway.

 

I know you would. The problem is that what you would rather do is not conducive to getting women, as you've had 33 years of no luck with it.

 

Ask yourself why with all the advancements in society people still need alcohol to apparently have fun.

 

Does it matter? The market and circumstances thereof don't care about your opinions. It will all continue regardless of what you think about it.

 

It is absolutely fate, there is enough evidence to suggest this is true in many circumstances. You cannot make someone like you, this much I know is true because I have done it many a time and its never worked, no matter how a good a foot I put forward, people either like you are they don't but mostly people just like what you can give them more than any personality trait. The way people meet is usually not pre planned.

 

I was not a born a strong, courageous, person -- far from it. I observed, considered, stuck my neck out, adapted, and became one largely by force of will.

 

When it comes to preaching about not giving up you are preaching to the converted however I also think if something is making you unhappy why keep pursuing it?

 

You're asking me? If your pursuit of women is making you unhappy, why persist? Why make this thread when you know the answer? If you don't think it's worth it, why bother with all this?

 

I think its valid to complain about the stigma society gives anyone who dares not conform, do you not think this a fair point?

 

I'm not denying your feelings exist, I'm just saying they're irrelevant in the context of getting what you desire. No one's going to fall in love with you via their sympathy. Complaining about these things is ultimately just fruitless and counterproductive. It just makes you look like a child, not a man.

 

At the moment I simply don't have anyone to chase.

 

And you refuse to bolster your chances of finding someone by doing uncomfortable things.

 

 

Inherently I guess I just know I don't stack up to what's out there so its almost pointless trying because I just get more the same over and over again.

 

Prove yourself wrong.

 

 

Not a heck of a lot I can do about a lack of experience unless I shop down or do pay dates, the former doesn't interest me and the latter is a morally dicey area which is also a no go.

 

Your lack of experience isn't a big deal until you make it one.

[elaine567]

Fear, fear and more fear....

[normal person]

At 10:30 in that video: "Discomfort leads to progress, therefore avoid your comfort zone. Step outside your comfort zone, move towards things you want."

 

I've said a variation of that at least a dozen times in various threads you've started. Hopefully that video makes it finally click for you. If not, I can't wait to see what excuse you come up with as to why it's nonsense, or not applicable to you.

[NTV]

You got tons of great advice here from a bunch of people that want to help you. I'm sorry I couldn't offer any better if I stand what you've already got. Good luck!

[ZA Dater]

I know you would. The problem is that what you would rather do is not conducive to getting women, as you've had 33 years of no luck with it.

 

 

 

Does it matter? The market and circumstances thereof don't care about your opinions. It will all continue regardless of what you think about it.

 

 

 

I was not a born a strong, courageous, person -- far from it. I observed, considered, stuck my neck out, adapted, and became one largely by force of will.

 

 

 

You're asking me? If your pursuit of women is making you unhappy, why persist? Why make this thread when you know the answer? If you don't think it's worth it, why bother with all this?

 

 

 

I'm not denying your feelings exist, I'm just saying they're irrelevant in the context of getting what you desire. No one's going to fall in love with you via their sympathy. Complaining about these things is ultimately just fruitless and counterproductive. It just makes you look like a child, not a man.

 

 

 

And you refuse to bolster your chances of finding someone by doing uncomfortable things.

 

 

 

 

Prove yourself wrong.

 

 

 

 

Your lack of experience isn't a big deal until you make it one.

 

I am just going to continue doing the things I like doing. If I meet people, great if not then so be it. I'll work on my self perception and when people talk about this and that and show me who they hooked up with last week/yesterday/last night I will simply just look and say "ok cool" and try not to feel totally useless.

 

Experience is a big deal, there are countless threads on here which prove that assertion totally wrong. My own experience at trying to charm people supports that assertion too. Even when I go full out and actually try the result is the same but then again you will tell its wrong I need to sit in a club and do that.. In fact there are examples on this very forum where a lack of experience is considered a total deal breaker.

 

I agree why persist. Is it as good as some say and is it as bad as some others say or does it fall in between the two.

 

Seemingly you have the perfect life, well done. Extrapolating your success with everyone else who tries really hard is plain misleading. Millions try, millions sit in clubs and yet still

1: Land up with nothing

2: End up settling for someone they don't want.

 

The odds of actually getting someone you really like seems amazingly slim to me.

 

But you know what, I'll go out to a bar or a club and I'll try once again knowing full well it an environment I don't work well in and doesn't play to anything I do particularly well but you say its perfect, great.

[ZA Dater]

 

Ok, I watched that.

 

Actually quite interesting. I guess it boils down to "How much do you really want something"

 

I'll say this, there are many things I want a lot more than I want to date. Yes, it would be nice, yes it would be nice to have the physical side of it but its not 1 or 2 on my list of things that I want.

 

There is a great degree of sense and logic in that, I cant disagree with any of it.

 

In truth dating is probably a curiosity for me, an 'I wonder what that would be like". Normal Person brought up "observe people and understand them", valid and I have done that and often I find what I see I don't always like. How have I moulded myself, by doing the things I see other people aren't so good at.

 

For me its about detail and taking an interest in people, if I was so terrible why is I seem to find some ladies gravitating towards me, the same ones I am interested in but when they want attention they come to me, why aren't their bf's given them that? Why when people are in a jam is it me they phone and not their bf's?

 

You could argue I am simply being used, which I guess is possible.

 

Its long been a bugbear of mine that nobody reciprocates the interest I take in them, what the forum doesn't understand is I'd be perfectly ok being single if I had some interest in me, if some does to me what I offer to everyone else. Some will think this is the wimp way out but I call it simply adapting to what I have to offer.

 

Its probably this which people cannot understand both here and in person, I have accepted a certain reality which is probably wrong. Yes, like every guy that walks the earth I'd love to hook up with a model but I also know its not possible for me so why chase something where the odds are near impossible, well unless you are Normal Person, he can do anything seemingly.

 

But yes, thanks for posting the video I do take value from it. I say this to people I help " everyone's life has good in it, even the smallest little bit, hang onto that in bad times, remind yourself of it often and keep moving ahead to improve what you have" Yes I do take my own advice but what I cant seem to find is confidence, maybe one day when I find out how to find that I could be someone people want to date, until then all I am is someone with severe self doubt in the dating arena.

 

Everyone likes a happy story and its good to know some people do end up enjoying what I can just imagine.

[elaine567]

For me its about detail and taking an interest in people, if I was so terrible why is I seem to find some ladies gravitating towards me, the same ones I am interested in but when they want attention they come to me, why aren't their bf's given them that? Why when people are in a jam is it me they phone and not their bf's?

You could argue I am simply being used, which I guess is possible.

 

That happens because you are viewed as "safe", in the same way a woman may view a gay man.

YOU are giving off a friendly but asexual vibe, so they treat you as a friend/nice guy/servant/lackey and not as a potential lover.

Good old ZA dater, he will come pick me up if my car breaks down, he will go out of his way to make me feel better if I am feeling low, he will make up the extra numbers at my dinner party...etc. etc.

He is a great guy, but date him?

Er no, I do not think of him in that way.

 

I also think you occupy the role of "servant" in your group.

You are the guy who organises the events and sorts the group out, the smart guy and whilst that holds some kudos, you do not really fit in, as you do not have the money and resources to really do so.

YOU mix amongst models and rich guys, so you are constantly reminded of how "inferior" you are compared to them. YOU want what they have, but as that is not possible, you retreat back into your shell and wallow in self pity.

Instead of being seen as a man in your own right, you are seen as a "wannabe", pandering to the elite group, and that is not a great thing to be.

That will continually sap your confidence.

Sometimes it is better for confidence and general well being to be the "star" in a group of "lesser" individuals, than be the "loser" in a group of "higher" individuals. Especially when the odds are stacked unfairly against you.

 

As you are "used" to mixing with the elite, YOU then look down on "normal" people, as they remind you of what you hate about yourself.

YOU do not want to be seen as "normal, you are "exceptional", you mix in elite circles, you deserve an "exceptional" woman, but the real world brings you down to earth and you cope with that by refusing to play the game...

If you do not really try, you do not fail...

 

Take a good hard look at those around you, I guess no-one reciprocates interest in you, as they are basically shallow, egotistical people and life is all about them and their needs and wants...

[normal person]

That happens because you are viewed as "safe", in the same way a woman may view a gay man.

YOU are giving off a friendly but asexual vibe, so they treat you as a friend/nice guy/servant/lackey and not as a potential lover.

Good old ZA dater, he will come pick me up if my car breaks down, he will go out of his way to make me feel better if I am feeling low, he will make up the extra numbers at my dinner party...etc. etc.

He is a great guy, but date him?

Er no, I do not think of him in that way.

 

There are some good things to consider in this post. It reminded me of when you said this:

 

Would there have been upsides going out with this model, perhaps but I can tell you this she would have looked pretty stupid bringing me along and its for that primary reason I didn't go because in my world other people are more important than myself. By some twisted logic I seemed it think it was good to take interest in others that perhaps they would take interest in me.

 

It seems like you're trying to fill a niche as "The Nice Guy." I'm not saying you're not genuinely nice -- I just think you also might try and use that as your marketing strategy and hope that women will one day wake up and appreciate how kind and selfless you are and realize how ignorant they've been for ignoring it all these years.

 

Here's the problem with your strategy: women instinctually want men to protect and provide for them, but not at the expense of the man himself. On the most biological level, that just makes you fodder for every other man who refuses to be taken advantage of. If you don't want to be just "The 'Nice' Guy," but rather an attractive guy who is also nice, prioritize yourself, your time, and your own resources before other people.

 

I know you think that sounds counterintuitive, but if you want women, they will much more attracted to your ability to do what you need to do for yourself first rather than jump at any opportunity to lie down in the mud so someone else can step on you. The logic being, if you can adequately provide and protect yourself, you can do so for them too if they can provide something worthy for you (reproduction, etc). But they won't lie in the mud with you while you get stepped on by everyone else. If you can't keep yourself out of the mud, you can't keep her out of the mud, you can't keep your kids out of the mud, etc. You're labeling yourself as the one to be taken advantage of. That's the way of a world with limited resources and people in constant competition for them.

[ZA Dater]

There are some good things to consider in this post. It reminded me of when you said this:

 

 

 

It seems like you're trying to fill a niche as "The Nice Guy." I'm not saying you're not genuinely nice -- I just think you also might try and use that as your marketing strategy and hope that women will one day wake up and appreciate how kind and selfless you are and realize how ignorant they've been for ignoring it all these years.

 

Here's the problem with your strategy: women instinctually want men to protect and provide for them, but not at the expense of the man himself. On the most biological level, that just makes you fodder for every other man who refuses to be taken advantage of. If you don't want to be just "The 'Nice' Guy," but rather an attractive guy who is also nice, prioritize yourself, your time, and your own resources before other people.

 

I know you think that sounds counterintuitive, but if you want women, they will much more attracted to your ability to do what you need to do for yourself first rather than jump at any opportunity to lie down in the mud so someone else can step on you. The logic being, if you can adequately provide and protect yourself, you can do so for them too if they can provide something worthy for you (reproduction, etc). But they won't lie in the mud with you while you get stepped on by everyone else. If you can't keep yourself out of the mud, you can't keep her out of the mud, you can't keep your kids out of the mud, etc. You're labeling yourself as the one to be taken advantage of. That's the way of a world with limited resources and people in constant competition for them.

 

I guess its all perception, you make it sound like I am a pushover which I am not, far from it actually. You are right in one thing or partly so, I am in that niche of being a nice guy, a rather unintended one but that's where I find myself.

 

The way I go about life cannot be so bad because it does earn me respect and there are a few people who do seem to care and no I don't do everything but the washing for them.

 

Part of me does hope as you say that perhaps the nice guy will win out at the end of the day but lets be realistic here its not really winning me anything at all but I am happy to be who I am. I am working with that I have in terms of good qualities but the truth you can be a greatest person on earth but if you cannot meet the superficial standard it means nothing.

 

I can go out with models, I can spend time with them, it doesn't suddenly make me any more desirable superficially. I can tell you this, by and large the models I have met have been much warmer more understanding people than any OLD date I have been on. The flip side of this you simply end up wanting something you cant have, there are a few of these models I do genuinely like but I would never get anywhere because I am not what they are looking for.

 

This whole thread misses one point, the fact you cannot alter what other people look for.

 

I used to think this was possible but it simply isn't, you can go all out, try create the best you and its still not good enough. Its a simple reality, I read many words of self improvement programmes, how to be desirable but the truth is none of this specific advice, its all consumer generic advice for the most part.

 

People ask why I didn't go with this model, because I know where my league is and unfortunately they/she aren't in my league. Liken to looking at a Patek Phillipe, liking it and then realising you can only afford a Casio. Will that Casio give you the same feeling, no it wont, you can pretend it will because ultimately it wont. I'll get slammed for this but I don't regret the people I have met, everyone is exceptional in some way but then there are some who capture the imagination like the Patek and inherently we all have this, you can deny it but its unquestionably true.

 

Elaine isn't wrong, when you sit with models, accomplished people, people with interesting stories, people with knowledge you tend to find the typical SOUTH AFRICAN OLD date has little to no appeal. I openly admit there is a massive gulf between what I like and what I can get and the latter unfortunately wont ever appeal to me.

 

Normal Person is also right because a lot of that is the highly superficial he mentions/implies in many posts. The bottom line is I am Polar bear on the beach of Maui.

 

There is much advice, much of it good but I just cannot find any real way to bridge that gap, perhaps the only way I can is to simply be the nice guy and just get some attention which is a lot better than none at all.

[Mr_Fox]

ZA_Dater: My initial response to your post was that you were right to refuse her offer. But after reading your later posts, it is obvious that you really need to chill-out!

 

You should have gone with her and had some fun. I used to work with a guy just like you and we used to pester him to go out clubbing with us and he refused for a year or two. But one week he said, OK I am going out with you guys this weekend!

 

You know what? It absolutely transformed his life. He started to love gong-out and became a real sociable party animal! Now he is married and settled down but we still hit the town from time ti time just like the old days!

[Imajerk17]

I can go out with models, I can spend time with them, it doesn't suddenly make me any more desirable superficially. I can tell you this, by and large the models I have met have been much warmer more understanding people than any OLD date I have been on. The flip side of this you simply end up wanting something you cant have, there are a few of these models I do genuinely like but I would never get anywhere because I am not what they are looking for.

 

.....

 

There is much advice, much of it good but I just cannot find any real way to bridge that gap, perhaps the only way I can is to simply be the nice guy and just get some attention which is a lot better than none at all.

 

 

Then as the models are so much warmer, why didn't you take them up w their offer and go out w them last weekend.

 

Get some attention? They offered you to join them for an evening of fun. You turned it down. And wrote a 5-page Woe-Is-Me dissertation. What more are you expecting the Universe to do for you?

Edited March 9, 2017 by Imajerk17

[normal person]

Part of me does hope as you say that perhaps the nice guy will win out at the end of the day but lets be realistic here its not really winning me anything at all but I am happy to be who I am. I am working with that I have in terms of good qualities but the truth you can be a greatest person on earth but if you cannot meet the superficial standard it means nothing.

 

If you're happy with who you are, fine. If you're not happy with what you've got, which is rather apparent, that's a different story.

 

 

The flip side of this you simply end up wanting something you cant have,

 

The biggest reason you can't have something is because you think you can't have it, and then don't even try.

 

there are a few of these models I do genuinely like but I would never get anywhere because I am not what they are looking for.

 

This whole thread misses one point, the fact you cannot alter what other people look for.

 

True, you can't change what other people want. But at the end of the day, what most people want is pretty straightforward, and with observance, trial and error, willpower, adaptability, etc, you can lead a fulfilling, productive life and coincidentally become what those people want in the process. If you desire someone more than they desire you, they have leverage and they call the shots. If you can work hard to flip the script and acquire all the qualities, traits, and resources, they might start desiring you more and suddenly the tables are turned.

 

So no, you can't change what other people look for. But you can change your life and most people will probably like that considering at the most primal level, we all want basically the same things.

 

I used to think this was possible but it simply isn't, you can go all out, try create the best you and its still not good enough. Its a simple reality, I read many words of self improvement programmes, how to be desirable but the truth is none of this specific advice, its all consumer generic advice for the most part.

 

It is possible. It's just not easy. No pain, no gain. Whoever busts their ass the hardest probably has the best chance of success. Some people want it badly, some just don't.

 

People ask why I didn't go with this model, because I know where my league is and unfortunately they/she aren't in my league.

 

Cool excuse.

 

Here's a tip, the biggest reason you aren't in this woman's league is because you literally think you aren't in her league. You have fear and insecurity about it that exists only in your head. If you just neglected this fear and viewed yourself as a worthwhile, interesting, smart, courageous person who wasn't constantly castrating himself, and just went out to enjoy the company of another individual who you didn't put on a pedestal (thereby lowering yourself), and acted like a confident, secure, grown man, she wouldn't view you as an ineffectual person who voluntarily removes himself from the competitive market out of fear. The first step in being in her league is essentially just affirming that you are, and not rolling over and dying upon inquiry.

 

You're in her league if you believe you are and refuse to let fear paralyze your actions and hinder your progress. You aren't in her league if you believe you aren't in her league and therefore never even try. The difference in success you'll have between the two approaches is mind boggling. The less afraid you are, the less undesirable you are.

 

Try this: go out with these women, leave your fear at home, and just act like a desirable person, even if you don't believe you are one. Just fake it. Stop caring. Take chances. Don't take any bulls****, even be a little rude if necessary. Don't let anyone sell you short or show any weakness, and you will be absolutely amazed at how differently people view you. Sometimes I'll go out with a girl and, if the circumstances are right, I'll see how far I can push the boundaries of this. The more I assert myself, the less demonstrably I care about her opinion of me, the more BS I call her out on, then very often (though not all the time), the more she likes me. The more eager she is to have me touch her, to tell me how much she exercises, to tell me how good she looks in her underwear, to have me literally put my hands on various body parts to acknowledge how nice they are. There are nuances and boundaries of course, and everything is a case-by-case sort of thing, but the rule applies: the less fearful you are, the less undesirable you are. If you find the mental groove that tickles her just right, if you can fill that masculine niche that she wants a man to fill, she will often become eager to please you. Not only will you not be undesirable, you will be actively desirable.

 

All those times I've told you to go out, face your fears, take chances, and step out of your comfort zone, this is the sort of thing I mean. Try something new. See what happens. Learn from it. Apply it elsewhere. The only thing stopping you from doing it is your own mind. You can either get up and do it, or make an excuse not to. I suggest doing it, it might change your entire life.

 

 

Normal Person is also right because a lot of that is the highly superficial he mentions/implies in many posts. The bottom line is I am Polar bear on the beach of Maui.

 

But the appeal of superficiality is based on survival instincts, not necessarily vanity or luxury. The more money and resources people have, and the better/healthier/stronger they look, the more likely they are to survive and live in comfort. Superficiality is often just a demonstration of those things. A part of the mating dance. That's why women prefer men with jobs to men with no jobs. That's why women prefer strong men to weak men. After a base level of success or strength, it can be become excessive to some, but the principle still applies: they want to be provided for and protected. If you're too scared to hang out with a model for one night, and voluntarily forfeit a chance to bolster your chances of reproduction, you are advertising yourself as the weakest of the weak. You're making her think "What else is this man afraid of? What else is he incapable of? He loses a battle to his fear to get things he wants for himself, how the hell is he ever going to benefit me or our kids? He's scared of intangible emotions."

 

 

There is much advice, much of it good but I just cannot find any real way to bridge that gap, perhaps the only way I can is to simply be the nice guy and just get some attention which is a lot better than none at all.

 

Relegating yourself to being the lowest, most fearful, bottom feeder that everyone else steps on will not do you many favors. It's not a niche likely to bring you much success unless you can find a woman who's in a situation where she similarly is too scared or unwilling to work for more than what she can get.

 

If you want better luck, assert yourself and conquer your fears. Otherwise, accept this fate, which you know you're unhappy with.

[ZA Dater]

If you're happy with who you are, fine. If you're not happy with what you've got, which is rather apparent, that's a different story.

 

 

 

 

The biggest reason you can't have something is because you think you can't have it, and then don't even try.

 

 

 

True, you can't change what other people want. But at the end of the day, what most people want is pretty straightforward, and with observance, trial and error, willpower, adaptability, etc, you can lead a fulfilling, productive life and coincidentally become what those people want in the process. If you desire someone more than they desire you, they have leverage and they call the shots. If you can work hard to flip the script and acquire all the qualities, traits, and resources, they might start desiring you more and suddenly the tables are turned.

 

So no, you can't change what other people look for. But you can change your life and most people will probably like that considering at the most primal level, we all want basically the same things.

 

 

 

It is possible. It's just not easy. No pain, no gain. Whoever busts their ass the hardest probably has the best chance of success. Some people want it badly, some just don't.

 

 

 

Cool excuse.

 

Here's a tip, the biggest reason you aren't in this woman's league is because you literally think you aren't in her league. You have fear and insecurity about it that exists only in your head. If you just neglected this fear and viewed yourself as a worthwhile, interesting, smart, courageous person who wasn't constantly castrating himself, and just went out to enjoy the company of another individual who you didn't put on a pedestal (thereby lowering yourself), and acted like a confident, secure, grown man, she wouldn't view you as an ineffectual person who voluntarily removes himself from the competitive market out of fear. The first step in being in her league is essentially just affirming that you are, and not rolling over and dying upon inquiry.

 

You're in her league if you believe you are and refuse to let fear paralyze your actions and hinder your progress. You aren't in her league if you believe you aren't in her league and therefore never even try. The difference in success you'll have between the two approaches is mind boggling. The less afraid you are, the less undesirable you are.

 

Try this: go out with these women, leave your fear at home, and just act like a desirable person, even if you don't believe you are one. Just fake it. Stop caring. Take chances. Don't take any bulls****, even be a little rude if necessary. Don't let anyone sell you short or show any weakness, and you will be absolutely amazed at how differently people view you. Sometimes I'll go out with a girl and, if the circumstances are right, I'll see how far I can push the boundaries of this. The more I assert myself, the less demonstrably I care about her opinion of me, the more BS I call her out on, then very often (though not all the time), the more she likes me. The more eager she is to have me touch her, to tell me how much she exercises, to tell me how good she looks in her underwear, to have me literally put my hands on various body parts to acknowledge how nice they are. There are nuances and boundaries of course, and everything is a case-by-case sort of thing, but the rule applies: the less fearful you are, the less undesirable you are. If you find the mental groove that tickles her just right, if you can fill that masculine niche that she wants a man to fill, she will often become eager to please you. Not only will you not be undesirable, you will be actively desirable.

 

All those times I've told you to go out, face your fears, take chances, and step out of your comfort zone, this is the sort of thing I mean. Try something new. See what happens. Learn from it. Apply it elsewhere. The only thing stopping you from doing it is your own mind. You can either get up and do it, or make an excuse not to. I suggest doing it, it might change your entire life.

 

 

 

 

But the appeal of superficiality is based on survival instincts, not necessarily vanity or luxury. The more money and resources people have, and the better/healthier/stronger they look, the more likely they are to survive and live in comfort. Superficiality is often just a demonstration of those things. A part of the mating dance. That's why women prefer men with jobs to men with no jobs. That's why women prefer strong men to weak men. After a base level of success or strength, it can be become excessive to some, but the principle still applies: they want to be provided for and protected. If you're too scared to hang out with a model for one night, and voluntarily forfeit a chance to bolster your chances of reproduction, you are advertising yourself as the weakest of the weak. You're making her think "What else is this man afraid of? What else is he incapable of? He loses a battle to his fear to get things he wants for himself, how the hell is he ever going to benefit me or our kids? He's scared of intangible emotions."

 

 

 

 

Relegating yourself to being the lowest, most fearful, bottom feeder that everyone else steps on will not do you many favors. It's not a niche likely to bring you much success unless you can find a woman who's in a situation where she similarly is too scared or unwilling to work for more than what she can get.

 

If you want better luck, assert yourself and conquer your fears. Otherwise, accept this fate, which you know you're unhappy with.

 

1: Millions of people can try go out with people they like, millions really try and yet still aren't successful. What do you put this down to, you cannot tell me its like of trying...As much as I'd like to believe what you say in this respect its far too fairy tale like and removed from reality for my cynical mind.

 

 

2. Sure you can sell out who you are, fake everything in the hope someone may like you, sure that's possible. Why on earth someone would consciously want to do this is quite beyond me. Might surprise you to know I have tried this method before, sure success is marginally better but consciously I cannot sit in front of someone and tell them total BS in the hope I can sprout the BS they want to hear.

 

 

3. Yes confident people seem to enjoy success, equally some of the worst people I know morally, intellectually seem to enjoy success too, few actually treat their significant others with any degree of respect but that doesn't seem to matter a jot. In the right environment I can come across as the confident guy what I have been trying to explain is clubs are NOT that environment, its not an all or nothing scenario, take me to a lunch with people and there I can work, there I can exhibit some confidence and charm.

 

 

4. It would be lovely to be the chased rather than the chaser but reality is not the same as fiction.

 

 

5. I learnt a lesson long ago about what is gettable and what is merely nice to look at. Yes, sure you can seemingly get anyone, the reality is MOST people cannot. I have tried to get the modest people I do like, no matter what I do, how much confidence I exude, how I dress, how I try to act it NEVER works. You then tell me to acquire some confidence, how when everything I have ever done has taken it away?

 

 

6. As above I have tried before and never got anywhere, none of these people were themselves massively marketable and even then I lost out. Based on that what chance do I have with someone who can choose anyone they like, logic says no chance at all. Its nice to believe one can but beliefs and reality aren't really the same thing are they. Because someone thinks they can fly doesn't mean they actually can.

 

 

7. I concede you are right if you can summon up vast degrees of confidence it might be possible to actually have some success but the proviso is you need to actually have something in common with the person, some common ground.

 

 

8. What is a desirable person? Cynically for me its just superficial everything and everything else is immaterial and unimportant. When I go out I think to myself

a: how do I start a conversation

b: how do I keep it going

c: is there any common ground because if there isn't b will fail every time.

 

 

I did find out that this particular model apparently doesn't care about the superficial so she says. Apparently. The point is moot because all I was, was a project for the evening when I finally loose that feeling about people trying to get me to do things then perhaps I will enjoy some success.

 

 

9. Someone else told me about this pushing the limits as you mention above, in fact what you typed out almost verbatim what he told me. To do this you need confidence, which I don't have because the spectre of failure and rejection is never far away. You need absolute confidence for that and a fairly high degree of charm, perhaps unsurprisingly I don't have that either. Oh and it would probably help if you were fun and light hearted, no guesses, I am not either of those two either.

 

 

10. You tell me to do different things, yes I did the club thing, I went out on dates with anyone who was prepared to meet up, went out with people I didn't find attractive. I agree learning is important and you cannot discount what the experiences I have had thus far have taught me, nor the level of cynicism they have instilled.

 

 

11. I disagree, superficial is 99% about vanity, my bf is better than yours, my bf has more money than yours, my bf is better looking. I accept its a competition but to me it has nothing to with survival at all, nothing to do with reproducing, unless it about physical looks then it does.

 

 

12. Working for more than they can get, why is it that NOBODY I know ever has to work for dates? The proviso is they do what you say and create a completely false persona, tailor themselves around who they think she is going to like, fantastic just be a totally false person. Me, I'd rather walk around be me, rather than guessing what the blond at the café might like. People keep telling me "oh I get rejected to, its normal, look past it". Fine I agree but they all has SUCCESS and not constant rejection, I'd find it much easier to keep going if I had some sort of success which wasn't generated because someone took me on as some pity project.

 

 

13. You are right, its about confidence I don't disagree with that at all, you are also right its about imagining you can be in the league but at what point do you let a fairy tale take over from reality. I chased a co worker for 3 years, took her out once, I just simply got used when her bf couldn't be there for her or wasn't providing her with attention. I go on tinder, I go on OLD and I see what matches me, its NEVER anyone I find attractive, am I supposed to IGNORE that fact and just imagine those attractive people will like me? I find that reality impossible to ignore.

I tried really hard to get K to go out with me and achieved nothing barring a friend zone. The sad reality is this there is nothing objective to suggest I'll ever have any dating success at all.

 

 

Maybe next week I'll try going to a club/bar again. I don't think I am a stupid person but in all honesty the more I read the more videos I watch the more impossible dating seems, the more impossible getting someone I actually like gets.

 

 

People talk to me about this and it hurts, reality hurts because pretty much everyone is blind to the lack of success I have, I mastered getting around this question by always answering "I am trying to do ABC first" when I was asked why I was single. Its a sore point and its a wound that gets opened. You wont understand this but that's what it is like for me.

 

 

At the end of the day there is enough to be thankful for and I remind myself of that when I sit on my own like now, on a Friday night.

[Imajerk17]

ZA, your intellect is your own worst enemy. You are shutting yourself off from connection and writing a veritable dissertation to justify why this is the case. It's been your pattern since you joined here.

 

Please save yourself some typing moving forward. Instead, next time you get a social invitation, just consider saying yes to it. Especially if it is from one of the kind-hearted women in your social circle, who happens to be a model. That's all I, and I think others, are trying to say.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Imajerk17

[normal person]

1: Millions of people can try go out with people they like, millions really try and yet still aren't successful. What do you put this down to, you cannot tell me its like of trying...As much as I'd like to believe what you say in this respect its far too fairy tale like and removed from reality for my cynical mind.

 

Odds of success if you never try: likely 0%

Odds of success if you do try: better than 0%

Odds of success if you try, fail, and apply what you learned in the failure to the next trial: better than the previous odds

 

 

2. Sure you can sell out who you are, fake everything in the hope someone may like you, sure that's possible.

 

Stop twisting my words. I didn't say sell yourself out. I suggest being the most productive, ambitious, curious, courageous, determined, person you can be. Those things will likely bring fulfillment and coincidentally, women.

 

 

Why on earth someone would consciously want to do this is quite beyond me.

 

Because you only live once and after survival, most peoples' biggest biological urge is to reproduce with the best possible mate. You do that by being someone else's best possible mate. You do that by being "better" than other people. You become better than other people by working harder than them. That's why.

 

I was out with a girl last night and she was questioning why I didn't eat pizza. Basically it boiled down to the fact that I like having abs better than I like pizza. I prefer the sex appeal. I like sex better than pizza. The better your body, the more appealing you are, the better partner you can get, the more you enjoy sex (usually), the better your life (in my book). I've worked, I've done thousands of sit ups/planks/torso rotations, and I'll take my reward for it, thank you very much. To me, that reward is better than pizza. That's why people do it. That's why people get jobs rather than just live off welfare. That's why people dress nice and go to the gym. To be the best, most appealing person you can be so you can reproduce with the best, most appealing person you can get.

 

 

In the right environment I can come across as the confident guy what I have been trying to explain is clubs are NOT that environment, its not an all or nothing scenario, take me to a lunch with people and there I can work, there I can exhibit some confidence and charm.

 

The market won't bend to you just because you like some places better than others. If you're confident and charming in one place, hopefully you can get a girlfriend out of it. If not, maybe you're not confident and charming enough to get what you want and you might have to explore other avenues.

 

 

5. I learnt a lesson long ago about what is gettable and what is merely nice to look at. Yes, sure you can seemingly get anyone, the reality is MOST people cannot. I have tried to get the modest people I do like, no matter what I do, how much confidence I exude, how I dress, how I try to act it NEVER works. You then tell me to acquire some confidence, how when everything I have ever done has taken it away?

 

I just advised you to stop declaring yourself so unworthy, so out of someone else's league, so inept, because that thought alone is actually the biggest barrier to entry, and you don't even realize it. As soon as you realize you're these womens' equal (or more) and they're not some goddesses who deem you unworthy with the touch of a wand, you whole life can change. If they can instill that much psychological fear and craft that intangible imbalance of power in you, surely you, another human, possess the capability to do the same, you just don't realize it. Release your fear and reluctance of these situations. Adopt one of fearlessness. Fearlessness of others' opinions and unapologetic confidence and assertiveness. Don't defer to your model friend to make decisions for you. Make decisions and have people follow your lead. Don't take any s***. People (women especially) will respect the fact that you're an actual man who will take charge and not let someone else (especially a woman) push him around or tell him what to do. When women realize you're in control, that they have no power over you, a switch gets flipped and you become more desirable. You ascend from this hell you've been living in. Be in control. Don't be controlled. Women will love it.

 

 

6. As above I have tried before and never got anywhere, none of these people were themselves massively marketable and even then I lost out. Based on that what chance do I have with someone who can choose anyone they like, logic says no chance at all. Its nice to believe one can but beliefs and reality aren't really the same thing are they. Because someone thinks they can fly doesn't mean they actually can.

 

And you won't get anywhere still unless you continue to try. But you won't, because you have excuses not to.

 

7. I concede you are right if you can summon up vast degrees of confidence it might be possible to actually have some success but the proviso is you need to actually have something in common with the person, some common ground.

 

You have plenty of differences on a micro level that you can talk about and extract common themes from until you realize that you have many things in common on a macro level. This is not hard, you're just making more excuses. You're smart, you can figure out how to have a meaningful conversation with someone.

 

8. What is a desirable person? Cynically for me its just superficial everything and everything else is immaterial and unimportant.

 

Well, you're dismissive. Reverse engineer what you like about other people and ape it. You're smart, you could've figured that out.

 

When I go out I think to myself

a: how do I start a conversation

b: how do I keep it going

c: is there any common ground because if there isn't b will fail every time.

 

Reference conversations you've had in the past, reverse engineer all these aspects of them, and put them into practice. You're smart, you could've figured that out.

 

 

9. Someone else told me about this pushing the limits as you mention above, in fact what you typed out almost verbatim what he told me. To do this you need confidence, which I don't have because the spectre of failure and rejection is never far away. You need absolute confidence for that and a fairly high degree of charm, perhaps unsurprisingly I don't have that either. Oh and it would probably help if you were fun and light hearted, no guesses, I am not either of those two either.

 

You must not have read what I said. I said "leave your fear at home." The spectre of failure and rejection is a totally imagined barrier that only exists because you think it does. The sooner you realize that you've paralyzed your progression because of a barrier that doesn't even exist, the sooner you can just stop making excuses, get off your butt, and do what you need. I'm not saying throw yourself to a pack of wolves. I'm not suggesting you do anything that will physically harm you. I'm not telling you to fly. All I'm telling you to do is go out with a woman, refuse to let her opinions affect you, and eventually learn to assert a position where yours affect her.

 

Your fear is not a real barrier, it's just an excuse. How much longer are you going to let some irrational, invisible manifestation of your own mind stop you from getting the things you want? It's lunacy. Fight against it and win, or let it conquer you and lose. If you can conquer your fear and just go for it, in that moment you will realize that you just adapted and evolved rather than refused to adapt and voluntarily removed yourself from the gene pool. It will feel good. Enjoy the rush.

 

 

11. I disagree, superficial is 99% about vanity, my bf is better than yours, my bf has more money than yours, my bf is better looking. I accept its a competition but to me it has nothing to with survival at all, nothing to do with reproducing, unless it about physical looks then it does.

 

More money, better health = better chance at survival, reproduction, and survival of children. The more money and health, the better. Vanity is irrelevant. And plenty of people desire money and health without vanity.

 

12. Working for more than they can get, why is it that NOBODY I know ever has to work for dates?

 

Everyone has different circumstances and life is unfair. Get over it. Complaining will not change things. Even so, the odds are they have to "work" for it, or figure it out, or conquer fears, or ascend to new heights in ways that you don't notice. For example, maybe they get dates because they deployed fearlessness, went to go out to the club with those models and met a bunch of girls, whereas you made excuses for yourself and stayed home. "Work."

 

I'd find it much easier to keep going if I had some sort of success which wasn't generated because someone took me on as some pity project.

 

Maybe you'd have success if you didn't constantly make excuses not to do things that will bolster your odds of success.

 

I go on tinder, I go on OLD and I see what matches me, its NEVER anyone I find attractive, am I supposed to IGNORE that fact and just imagine those attractive people will like me? I find that reality impossible to ignore.

 

Try going to the club with those models and acting like you're in control, not being controlled by what other people think of you.

 

I tried really hard to get K to go out with me and achieved nothing barring a friend zone. The sad reality is this there is nothing objective to suggest I'll ever have any dating success at all.

 

Small sample size. And if you believe that you'll never have success, then you won't do anything about it, and you won't. It will be self-fulfilling. Another totally invisible mental barrier that will keep you from getting what you want. If you don't believe it, you can change the course of your life if you keep trying.

 

 

People talk to me about this and it hurts, reality hurts because pretty much everyone is blind to the lack of success I have, I mastered getting around this question by always answering "I am trying to do ABC first" when I was asked why I was single. Its a sore point and its a wound that gets opened. You wont understand this but that's what it is like for me.

 

I understand, the difference is that I'm not a slave to invisible barriers or emotions. When bad things happen, I work through them. I break psychological barriers. I don't accept defeat. I revel in opportunities to overcome things. I push forward, not run back. The only thing I don't understand is how you don't when you only have one life on this Earth.

[ZA Dater]

Odds of success if you never try: likely 0%

Odds of success if you do try: better than 0%

Odds of success if you try, fail, and apply what you learned in the failure to the next trial: better than the previous odds

 

 

 

 

Stop twisting my words. I didn't say sell yourself out. I suggest being the most productive, ambitious, curious, courageous, determined, person you can be. Those things will likely bring fulfillment and coincidentally, women.

 

 

 

 

Because you only live once and after survival, most peoples' biggest biological urge is to reproduce with the best possible mate. You do that by being someone else's best possible mate. You do that by being "better" than other people. You become better than other people by working harder than them. That's why.

 

I was out with a girl last night and she was questioning why I didn't eat pizza. Basically it boiled down to the fact that I like having abs better than I like pizza. I prefer the sex appeal. I like sex better than pizza. The better your body, the more appealing you are, the better partner you can get, the more you enjoy sex (usually), the better your life (in my book). I've worked, I've done thousands of sit ups/planks/torso rotations, and I'll take my reward for it, thank you very much. To me, that reward is better than pizza. That's why people do it. That's why people get jobs rather than just live off welfare. That's why people dress nice and go to the gym. To be the best, most appealing person you can be so you can reproduce with the best, most appealing person you can get.

 

 

 

 

The market won't bend to you just because you like some places better than others. If you're confident and charming in one place, hopefully you can get a girlfriend out of it. If not, maybe you're not confident and charming enough to get what you want and you might have to explore other avenues.

 

 

 

 

I just advised you to stop declaring yourself so unworthy, so out of someone else's league, so inept, because that thought alone is actually the biggest barrier to entry, and you don't even realize it. As soon as you realize you're these womens' equal (or more) and they're not some goddesses who deem you unworthy with the touch of a wand, you whole life can change. If they can instill that much psychological fear and craft that intangible imbalance of power in you, surely you, another human, possess the capability to do the same, you just don't realize it. Release your fear and reluctance of these situations. Adopt one of fearlessness. Fearlessness of others' opinions and unapologetic confidence and assertiveness. Don't defer to your model friend to make decisions for you. Make decisions and have people follow your lead. Don't take any s***. People (women especially) will respect the fact that you're an actual man who will take charge and not let someone else (especially a woman) push him around or tell him what to do. When women realize you're in control, that they have no power over you, a switch gets flipped and you become more desirable. You ascend from this hell you've been living in. Be in control. Don't be controlled. Women will love it.

 

 

 

 

And you won't get anywhere still unless you continue to try. But you won't, because you have excuses not to.

 

 

 

You have plenty of differences on a micro level that you can talk about and extract common themes from until you realize that you have many things in common on a macro level. This is not hard, you're just making more excuses. You're smart, you can figure out how to have a meaningful conversation with someone.

 

 

 

Well, you're dismissive. Reverse engineer what you like about other people and ape it. You're smart, you could've figured that out.

 

 

 

Reference conversations you've had in the past, reverse engineer all these aspects of them, and put them into practice. You're smart, you could've figured that out.

 

 

 

 

You must not have read what I said. I said "leave your fear at home." The spectre of failure and rejection is a totally imagined barrier that only exists because you think it does. The sooner you realize that you've paralyzed your progression because of a barrier that doesn't even exist, the sooner you can just stop making excuses, get off your butt, and do what you need. I'm not saying throw yourself to a pack of wolves. I'm not suggesting you do anything that will physically harm you. I'm not telling you to fly. All I'm telling you to do is go out with a woman, refuse to let her opinions affect you, and eventually learn to assert a position where yours affect her.

 

Your fear is not a real barrier, it's just an excuse. How much longer are you going to let some irrational, invisible manifestation of your own mind stop you from getting the things you want? It's lunacy. Fight against it and win, or let it conquer you and lose. If you can conquer your fear and just go for it, in that moment you will realize that you just adapted and evolved rather than refused to adapt and voluntarily removed yourself from the gene pool. It will feel good. Enjoy the rush.

 

 

 

 

More money, better health = better chance at survival, reproduction, and survival of children. The more money and health, the better. Vanity is irrelevant. And plenty of people desire money and health without vanity.

 

 

 

Everyone has different circumstances and life is unfair. Get over it. Complaining will not change things. Even so, the odds are they have to "work" for it, or figure it out, or conquer fears, or ascend to new heights in ways that you don't notice. For example, maybe they get dates because they deployed fearlessness, went to go out to the club with those models and met a bunch of girls, whereas you made excuses for yourself and stayed home. "Work."

 

 

 

Maybe you'd have success if you didn't constantly make excuses not to do things that will bolster your odds of success.

 

 

 

Try going to the club with those models and acting like you're in control, not being controlled by what other people think of you.

 

 

 

Small sample size. And if you believe that you'll never have success, then you won't do anything about it, and you won't. It will be self-fulfilling. Another totally invisible mental barrier that will keep you from getting what you want. If you don't believe it, you can change the course of your life if you keep trying.

 

 

 

 

I understand, the difference is that I'm not a slave to invisible barriers or emotions. When bad things happen, I work through them. I break psychological barriers. I don't accept defeat. I revel in opportunities to overcome things. I push forward, not run back. The only thing I don't understand is how you don't when you only have one life on this Earth.

 

I agree, one needs some self belief that one can be successful, absolutely true and I don't dispute that at all. The question is, sure success wont happen all the time but how do you actually see failure as success?

Again, sure take the lessons forward you say, how when you never get constructive feedback. Honestly I have no idea why people don't like me because nobody tells me why, perhaps if they did I could actually say ok lets work on those points.

 

 

By the way you can have abs and pizza.

 

 

I get what you say there, work towards the things you want and sacrifice to try and get those things, again absolute sense but where do you draw the line, how much of life do you dedicate to dating? When I was in HS, everybody dated, I had no interest in it at all, chose to spend my time doing other things. My point here is choices have consequences and I don't regret many things but I do regret perhaps a dozen things, all of which had a profound effect on me.

 

 

Better body, I try to work out but the reality is I will always be the skinny guy in the room, I am ok with how I like, someone once told me if you don't like yourself nobody else will like you.

 

 

You go on about reward, what about people who slave away and never get the reward? I have tried with people and you know after being rejected so many times its a case of I know the outcome at the beginning and I ask myself, do I really want this.

 

 

Its fine to walk around and feel on the same level, I do this all the time in business but dating isn't business, I just get chopped down and the level of rejection just puts me off because as I say I have never experienced anything different.

 

 

You say take the lead, no I watch everyone else walk and then I walk my own path.

 

 

No, I genuinely cannot figure out what to talk to someone at a club about, I'd be inclined to bring up politics or common general knowledge meanwhile that's got no relevance in that situation. That's my point, I lack relevance 99.9% of the time.

 

 

I disagree, superficial is about vanity most of the time.

 

 

No, rejection is real and when it happens ALL the time then you cannot simply pack it away and pretend it doesn't exist. As for what I like about other people, in truth they have all the attributes I simply don't have.

 

 

I don't argue my odds of success are low, they always have been, purely because of what I find attractive. You are right I don't believe I will ever enjoy success which is a self fulfilling but that belief is rooted in past experience, if at 33 I could say, ok I got kissed, ok I had 3 dates, ok I had those things then sure I'd recognize I could do more if I put more work in but the fact I haven't and objectively speaking not having done those things are instant red lights. Care to guess how many times in OLD I have been asked about past relationships, care to guess the reaction when I say I have never had one. Yes, you guessed it.

 

 

Probably the difference between successful guys and me is they can see opportunities whereas I cannot and have the confidence to try, whereas I take one look and dismiss myself as unattractive which I am when compared others. Something of a speciality of mine is to try and look for different sort of people, people who don't do the club bar thing in the hope I may work better with them, hard to find them but inevitably I don't hold much allure for them either.

 

 

You make it sound like I do nothing to try improve those odds, I have tried to bulk up, I do dress differently and some people say I look good but its the personality which is considerably harder to change. I think I could be friend zoned easily because it seems my attributes are more suited to that, which is fine but its like going to the finest restaurant and not being able to eat mains.

 

 

Do I regret not going out with the model, perhaps but I get over that quite easy, more so when I how un keen she was to actually take my anywhere, my friend put her on the spot and she didn't want to turn me down to my face which I respect. She wanted fun and I still don't know what that is. For me its a cycle through beautiful countryside, catching a great wave, driving something awesome and fast. Eating a great lunch overlooking a picturesque valley. Writing a profound piece of prose.

 

 

Working on piece for an international publication at the moment, not that such things ever seem to impress potential dates.

 

 

For the sake of this thread I will go out next week, on my own to a club and see what comes of it.

[normal person]

I agree, one needs some self belief that one can be successful, absolutely true and I don't dispute that at all. The question is, sure success wont happen all the time but how do you actually see failure as success?

 

Failure is an opportunity to learn from your mistakes and apply what you learned elsewhere.

 

Again, sure take the lessons forward you say, how when you never get constructive feedback. Honestly I have no idea why people don't like me because nobody tells me why, perhaps if they did I could actually say ok lets work on those points.

 

If you want constructive feedback, ask for it. Don't take it personally. Don't get mad. Respect their honesty and willingness to help you. "Pizza Girl" wasn't such a fan of my massage technique. I had to have her guide me through how she'd rather have me do it. I didn't take it as an insult. I'm happy she told me so now I don't have to have her secretly being unsatisfied during every massage and thinking she has to pretend to enjoy it spare my feelings. No one wins in that scenario.

 

By the way you can have abs and pizza.

 

You can, but I'm going to stay as far ahead of the curve as possible for as long as I can.

 

I get what you say there, work towards the things you want and sacrifice to try and get those things, again absolute sense but where do you draw the line, how much of life do you dedicate to dating?

 

It depends on how bad you want it. I like women. I like dating. I like sex. I'll get married eventually. Basically everything I do serves those biological imperatives I always mention: survive, reproduce with the best possible person, and make sure your kids lead safe, comfortable, fulfilling lives and reach reproductive age themselves. You draw the line when you're content with your ability to get those things in the manner that you're comfortable with which hopefully gives you a satisfactory, happy, harmonious life. I don't know about you, but I won't draw the line until I have the wife I want and all the money my wife/kids need to never worry about anything within my control. For some people that's crazy, to me, everyone else is crazy. Your line may be a lot different than mine, and that's ok if you're satisfied with it.

 

 

When I was in HS, everybody dated, I had no interest in it at all, chose to spend my time doing other things. My point here is choices have consequences and I don't regret many things but I do regret perhaps a dozen things, all of which had a profound effect on me.

 

Yes. You made your bed, now you have to lie in it.

 

Better body, I try to work out but the reality is I will always be the skinny guy in the room, I am ok with how I like, someone once told me if you don't like yourself nobody else will like you.

 

Again, how bad do you want it? You'll always be the skinny guy in the room if you accept that you'll always be the skinny guy in the room. Or, you can cut fat and build muscle with the right exercise and diet like I do. I've sacrificed a lot (time, pizza, money on protein shakes), but you'd be hard pressed to find a 30 year old in better shape than I am, and I'm much happier than the alternative. But if you're happy, that's good, as long as you're not secretly harboring some desire to look better and let it feed some fear you have.

 

You go on about reward, what about people who slave away and never get the reward?

 

Life is very much a meritocracy. I can respect anyone who takes a chance, faces fear, and tries with all their power to get something they want, regardless of the outcome. In the end we're all at the mercy of the market. Those people can probably go to bed at night knowing they did all they could rather than wasted their life making excuses as to why they can never try. It's survival of the fittest, the most adaptable. You don't have to like it, but life makes a lot more sense when you accept it.

 

I have tried with people and you know after being rejected so many times its a case of I know the outcome at the beginning and I ask myself, do I really want this.

 

If you didn't really want it, you wouldn't keep making threads on here which are all basically a monument to how badly you want it. You want the reward, you just don't like taking the risk or dealing with the adversity.

 

Its fine to walk around and feel on the same level, I do this all the time in business but dating isn't business, I just get chopped down and the level of rejection just puts me off because as I say I have never experienced anything different.

 

But at the end of the day, it all exists only in your head. It only "puts you off" because you let it affect you that much. You get rejected, you think it's such a big deal, you come on here and sulk for a month. Someone else gets rejected, shrugs it off, learns from his mistakes, moves onto the next girl, and repeats the process until he gets what he wants. Who do you think is more likely to get what he wants? You, or the other guy? This isn't that difficult of a concept. Your fear prevents you from getting what you want. The other guy has no fear and thus much better odds. You let invisible, laughable barriers affect the entire course of your life. You're living in an entirely imagined prison.

 

You say take the lead, no I watch everyone else walk and then I walk my own path.

 

If your path leads you further from what you desire, it might not be the best choice. All I'm saying is that women like and respect men who lead them. They usually don't like men who they need to lead.

 

No, I genuinely cannot figure out what to talk to someone at a club about, I'd be inclined to bring up politics or common general knowledge meanwhile that's got no relevance in that situation. That's my point, I lack relevance 99.9% of the time.

 

You're so smart, it's amazing that you can't deconstruct situations like this. Have you ever had a conversation with someone that made you feel something good; an emotional bond? Did anyone, ever in your life, say something nice to you, compliment you, connect with you? Think of that power that person has to make you feel good, reverse engineer it and just do the same thing to someone else. I've never read the book "How To Win Friends And Influence People" but I imagine it's basically this principle we're talking about here. When someone respects or appreciates something you do, or connects with you somehow emotionally, you feel warmer to the person, or a closeness. It makes you feel good. Talking politics or general knowledge is fine if you can extract and then scale the human, emotional aspects of it. Why do they have a particular political view? What does that have in common with your views? I'm sorry, but if you can't reverse engineer simple experiences that you've had and apply them elsewhere, refuse or make excuses to refine the process of forming basic human connections with people, it's very possible you might not have acuity or capacity to date. You're so smart, how is it possible that you cannot figure out something as simple taking what feels good to you using it to make someone else feel good? This is very much a mental thing. Find the common theme in good conversations you've had, and reproduce it elsewhere. I honestly don't know if I can help you further than that. Either you can figure out how to do that, or you can't, or you can blame someone else for it because it didn't work exactly as expected the first time you gave it a half-assed effort.

 

I disagree, superficial is about vanity most of the time.

 

I don't think it matters. Money and beauty are driving forces whether someone wants to brag about them or not.

 

No, rejection is real and when it happens ALL the time then you cannot simply pack it away and pretend it doesn't exist. As for what I like about other people, in truth they have all the attributes I simply don't have.

 

No, you simply can't pack it away. I'm not saying pretend it doesn't exist, I'm just saying stop caring about it so much. See the example I made above about you and the other guy who doesn't care about rejection and moves on to the next girl. You just accept slavery to your own mind and don't realize that on greater plane, none of your thoughts about rejection matter or are of any consequence to the universe. They are nothing. You are a slave to nothing. You make excuses to succumb to something you made up. Look at yourself from someone else's perspective and realize how utterly, ludicrously laughable that is. No one else feels, cares about, or is affected by your rejection. The only reason it's affected your life thus far is because YOU LET IT. That other guy in the example is off meeting more girls, figuring it out, and you're still sulking. You don't have the strength.

 

I don't argue my odds of success are low, they always have been, purely because of what I find attractive.

 

If you don't meet the standard of those you desire, raise yourself to their's. The market is always right. No one will give you pity points because you have unjustifiably high standards.

 

You are right I don't believe I will ever enjoy success which is a self fulfilling

 

So why the hell am I having this conversation with you? Either do something about it (I've written you a novel about how to), or just accept defeat already and stop complaining that the market doesn't bend to you. If you're not willing to do the necessary things, this effort to help you is a waste of time for everyone involved. At the very least I hope someone else in search of advice reads this, refuses to be as defeatist as you, and decides to go out there and fight for what he wants.

 

but that belief is rooted in past experience, if at 33 I could say, ok I got kissed, ok I had 3 dates, ok I had those things then sure I'd recognize I could do more if I put more work in but the fact I haven't and objectively speaking not having done those things are instant red lights. Care to guess how many times in OLD I have been asked about past relationships, care to guess the reaction when I say I have never had one. Yes, you guessed it.

 

I know, I don't care. It doesn't matter. Instead of continuing to try with a chance of success, you accept defeat and therefore ensure failure. I don't know how to explain it any further.

 

Probably the difference between successful guys and me is they can see opportunities whereas I cannot and have the confidence to try, whereas I take one look and dismiss myself as unattractive which I am when compared others.

 

Yes, that's basically your problem. You're removing yourself from the gene pool voluntarily via your fear and willingness to accept defeat.

 

You make it sound like I do nothing to try improve those odds, I have tried to bulk up, I do dress differently and some people say I look good but its the personality which is considerably harder to change.

 

You can always try harder, you can always be better. You've proven time and time again that you just don't want to that badly.

 

I think I could be friend zoned easily because it seems my attributes are more suited to that, which is fine but its like going to the finest restaurant and not being able to eat mains.

 

Your willful acceptance of this is an absolutely defeatist, omega-male, kryptonite-to-women mentality. You might as well wear a sign that says "Attention women of Earth: Never have sex with me." You're dropping a nuclear bomb on your chances of ever having a woman respect you as a partner. If you never fight for better, if you never compete for a limited resource, if you accept your situation, you will never get what you want.

 

Do I regret not going out with the model, perhaps but I get over that quite easy,

 

"I get over it quite easy," you say on page 8 of your 1000th thread sulking about how miserable your dating life is.

 

more so when I how un keen she was to actually take my anywhere, my friend put her on the spot and she didn't want to turn me down to my face which I respect. She wanted fun and I still don't know what that is. For me its a cycle through beautiful countryside, catching a great wave, driving something awesome and fast. Eating a great lunch overlooking a picturesque valley. Writing a profound piece of prose.

 

Cool excuse. How'd it work out for you? You're a beggar who wants to be a chooser.

 

For the sake of this thread I will go out next week, on my own to a club and see what comes of it.

 

If it's not a perfect success, just don't use that one instance to justify never trying again.

[NuevoYorko]

I have to agree with the guy who said you take yourself way too seriously. It's not a good starting point for anything.

[ZA Dater]

Failure is an opportunity to learn from your mistakes and apply what you learned elsewhere.

 

 

 

If you want constructive feedback, ask for it. Don't take it personally. Don't get mad. Respect their honesty and willingness to help you. "Pizza Girl" wasn't such a fan of my massage technique. I had to have her guide me through how she'd rather have me do it. I didn't take it as an insult. I'm happy she told me so now I don't have to have her secretly being unsatisfied during every massage and thinking she has to pretend to enjoy it spare my feelings. No one wins in that scenario.

 

 

 

You can, but I'm going to stay as far ahead of the curve as possible for as long as I can.

 

 

 

It depends on how bad you want it. I like women. I like dating. I like sex. I'll get married eventually. Basically everything I do serves those biological imperatives I always mention: survive, reproduce with the best possible person, and make sure your kids lead safe, comfortable, fulfilling lives and reach reproductive age themselves. You draw the line when you're content with your ability to get those things in the manner that you're comfortable with which hopefully gives you a satisfactory, happy, harmonious life. I don't know about you, but I won't draw the line until I have the wife I want and all the money my wife/kids need to never worry about anything within my control. For some people that's crazy, to me, everyone else is crazy. Your line may be a lot different than mine, and that's ok if you're satisfied with it.

 

 

 

 

Yes. You made your bed, now you have to lie in it.

 

 

 

Again, how bad do you want it? You'll always be the skinny guy in the room if you accept that you'll always be the skinny guy in the room. Or, you can cut fat and build muscle with the right exercise and diet like I do. I've sacrificed a lot (time, pizza, money on protein shakes), but you'd be hard pressed to find a 30 year old in better shape than I am, and I'm much happier than the alternative. But if you're happy, that's good, as long as you're not secretly harboring some desire to look better and let it feed some fear you have.

 

 

 

Life is very much a meritocracy. I can respect anyone who takes a chance, faces fear, and tries with all their power to get something they want, regardless of the outcome. In the end we're all at the mercy of the market. Those people can probably go to bed at night knowing they did all they could rather than wasted their life making excuses as to why they can never try. It's survival of the fittest, the most adaptable. You don't have to like it, but life makes a lot more sense when you accept it.

 

 

 

If you didn't really want it, you wouldn't keep making threads on here which are all basically a monument to how badly you want it. You want the reward, you just don't like taking the risk or dealing with the adversity.

 

 

 

But at the end of the day, it all exists only in your head. It only "puts you off" because you let it affect you that much. You get rejected, you think it's such a big deal, you come on here and sulk for a month. Someone else gets rejected, shrugs it off, learns from his mistakes, moves onto the next girl, and repeats the process until he gets what he wants. Who do you think is more likely to get what he wants? You, or the other guy? This isn't that difficult of a concept. Your fear prevents you from getting what you want. The other guy has no fear and thus much better odds. You let invisible, laughable barriers affect the entire course of your life. You're living in an entirely imagined prison.

 

 

 

If your path leads you further from what you desire, it might not be the best choice. All I'm saying is that women like and respect men who lead them. They usually don't like men who they need to lead.

 

 

 

You're so smart, it's amazing that you can't deconstruct situations like this. Have you ever had a conversation with someone that made you feel something good; an emotional bond? Did anyone, ever in your life, say something nice to you, compliment you, connect with you? Think of that power that person has to make you feel good, reverse engineer it and just do the same thing to someone else. I've never read the book "How To Win Friends And Influence People" but I imagine it's basically this principle we're talking about here. When someone respects or appreciates something you do, or connects with you somehow emotionally, you feel warmer to the person, or a closeness. It makes you feel good. Talking politics or general knowledge is fine if you can extract and then scale the human, emotional aspects of it. Why do they have a particular political view? What does that have in common with your views? I'm sorry, but if you can't reverse engineer simple experiences that you've had and apply them elsewhere, refuse or make excuses to refine the process of forming basic human connections with people, it's very possible you might not have acuity or capacity to date. You're so smart, how is it possible that you cannot figure out something as simple taking what feels good to you using it to make someone else feel good? This is very much a mental thing. Find the common theme in good conversations you've had, and reproduce it elsewhere. I honestly don't know if I can help you further than that. Either you can figure out how to do that, or you can't, or you can blame someone else for it because it didn't work exactly as expected the first time you gave it a half-assed effort.

 

 

 

I don't think it matters. Money and beauty are driving forces whether someone wants to brag about them or not.

 

 

 

No, you simply can't pack it away. I'm not saying pretend it doesn't exist, I'm just saying stop caring about it so much. See the example I made above about you and the other guy who doesn't care about rejection and moves on to the next girl. You just accept slavery to your own mind and don't realize that on greater plane, none of your thoughts about rejection matter or are of any consequence to the universe. They are nothing. You are a slave to nothing. You make excuses to succumb to something you made up. Look at yourself from someone else's perspective and realize how utterly, ludicrously laughable that is. No one else feels, cares about, or is affected by your rejection. The only reason it's affected your life thus far is because YOU LET IT. That other guy in the example is off meeting more girls, figuring it out, and you're still sulking. You don't have the strength.

 

 

 

If you don't meet the standard of those you desire, raise yourself to their's. The market is always right. No one will give you pity points because you have unjustifiably high standards.

 

 

 

So why the hell am I having this conversation with you? Either do something about it (I've written you a novel about how to), or just accept defeat already and stop complaining that the market doesn't bend to you. If you're not willing to do the necessary things, this effort to help you is a waste of time for everyone involved. At the very least I hope someone else in search of advice reads this, refuses to be as defeatist as you, and decides to go out there and fight for what he wants.

 

 

 

I know, I don't care. It doesn't matter. Instead of continuing to try with a chance of success, you accept defeat and therefore ensure failure. I don't know how to explain it any further.

 

 

 

Yes, that's basically your problem. You're removing yourself from the gene pool voluntarily via your fear and willingness to accept defeat.

 

 

 

You can always try harder, you can always be better. You've proven time and time again that you just don't want to that badly.

 

 

 

Your willful acceptance of this is an absolutely defeatist, omega-male, kryptonite-to-women mentality. You might as well wear a sign that says "Attention women of Earth: Never have sex with me." You're dropping a nuclear bomb on your chances of ever having a woman respect you as a partner. If you never fight for better, if you never compete for a limited resource, if you accept your situation, you will never get what you want.

 

 

 

"I get over it quite easy," you say on page 8 of your 1000th thread sulking about how miserable your dating life is.

 

 

 

Cool excuse. How'd it work out for you? You're a beggar who wants to be a chooser.

 

 

 

If it's not a perfect success, just don't use that one instance to justify never trying again.

 

Clearly have all the answers and a perfect life. Well done. Enjoy it. Live the fairy tale because many in the real world don't but that fact seems to pass you by. If everyone did so spectacularly well then there wouldn't be millions of single lonely people then would there. You cant tell me none of them work hard and want it badly.

 

 

SO I go out to a club, how do I measure success? How do I quantify success, if I can spend an hour there?

 

 

You brought up a good point. Reverse the things which make me feel good onto others and I spend some time thinking about this. What makes me feel good.

1: General knowledge/intelligence.

2: Well spoken people

3: A nice smile

4: Someone who thinks out of box and has different interests.

5: Someone who takes some sort of interest in me.

 

 

Take those 5 and realistically the only universal one is perhaps point 5. Now apply this to a bar situation, how do you suggest I use those things on other people to make them feel good?

Sure, I can compliment someone that might make them feel good, I can try make them laugh, perhaps that would be my humour is so dry most totally miss the joke or don't ever understand it to begin with.

 

 

I don't mind constructive feedback nor do I mind insults, I have asked for feedback and have gotten precisely nothing barring the "there is no chemistry" which I consider to be evasive BS of the highest order and plays directly at being superficial.

 

 

People just aren't as honest as I would like them to be, which is unfortunate.

 

 

You can want something very badly and still ultimately never accomplish it, that's simply reality. Resources are finite and perhaps sometimes its best to simply step back and decide if one is using them optimally. Suppose I do want it on some sort of level I am just simply trying to understand a target market, a generic like and when I do I simply realise how few of the things people seem to want I have.

 

 

Sure I can go out and try be more what the target audience wants and I have tried that, tried to be less intense, more humour, smile more but the odd thing is a LIKE very few people, there seldom seems to be any sort of connection. I will admit it does gripe me to have to bend over backwards. I don't see anything wrong with being skinny, quite happy actually to be that, whether society deems I must be something else I don't know.

 

 

In my entire life there have only ever been three people I felt any sort of connection with BUT you do vindicate my nice guy niche so thank you very much for admitting tacitly to that. I actually do accept its luck of the draw and you can sit down and list every good thing about yourself and still not have attributes anyone actually wants.

 

 

Sure the other guy might have more success but I'd wager he generally likes more people than I do, honesty there is such a small minority of people who appeal to me its easy to just look at all the tries and eventually look around and realise "well the single people are not as many as they once were, I am not 25 anymore".

 

 

What you don't get about rejection is this, you simply feel un attractive to anyone and you start extrapolating that over years and its like telling yourself something often enough you end up believing it. If that could be overcome a lot of this would be easier, relatively speaking. Being wanted by someone you don't want doesn't fix this in case you were wondering, I have been down that road before and tried to like people who seemed to like me but I simply could find no redeeming factors at all.

 

 

Its not about being defeatist its about being realistic, I am not going to be dating some model, its unrealistic to expect that, yes intellectually I think I can compete, perhaps that comes across here, perhaps not but the problem HOW do you make that count, you can reverse engineer anything you want but if the person doesn't find you attractive it wont work, can we at least agree on that?

 

 

Last question, do I go on my own or take someone as useless at dating as me with me?

[ZA Dater]

I have to agree with the guy who said you take yourself way too seriously. It's not a good starting point for anything.

 

 

What do you think is a good starting point? I'll say this since I have joined this forum I have been able to get friend zoned to some extent so clearly the reading I do here has some value.

[normal person]

Clearly have all the answers and a perfect life. Well done. Enjoy it. Live the fairy tale because many in the real world don't but that fact seems to pass you by. If everyone did so spectacularly well then there wouldn't be millions of single lonely people then would there. You cant tell me none of them work hard and want it badly.

 

And you can't tell me I don't deserve the things I got, because I worked harder and smarter for them than anyone I know. I made calculated, difficult, uncomfortable, inconvenient choices that would benefit me in the future rather than irrational, emotional choices that would benefit me in the present at the expense of the future. Now my dividends are being paid. I gave up a lot, risked a lot, worked a lot, and continue to do so. I assessed the situations, I took the risks, I did the work, so I get the reward. It's not my fault other people didn't do the same. I'm sure plenty of them "work hard" or "want it badly," but at the end of the day, if they still don't have what they're after, they didn't work hard enough. You were telling me I can have pizza and still have abs. I'd still rather not intake the minuscule amount of fat/carbs or whatever that's going to reverse my position even slightly -- that's how bad I work for things. I'd rather not have the carbs and have my friends razz me for not drinking. I'd rather stay in and get necessary work done while my friends are wasting time watching football all Sunday. Not only will I "work hard," I'll work harder than everyone else and leave them all in my wake. That's why I'm successful, not because life is a fairytale. It's only seems fairytale now because it was nightmarish trek before and people choose not to see it. Ask anyone who's gotten everything they've wanted what they had to do or sacrifice in order to get it, or if it all just fell into their lap.

 

SO I go out to a club, how do I measure success? How do I quantify success, if I can spend an hour there?

 

If you're happy with your experience, or if you learn something you can take with you and apply elsewhere for your benefit, or if you get something you want, would you not consider that a success?

 

You brought up a good point. Reverse the things which make me feel good onto others and I spend some time thinking about this. What makes me feel good.

1: General knowledge/intelligence.

2: Well spoken people

3: A nice smile

4: Someone who thinks out of box and has different interests.

5: Someone who takes some sort of interest in me.

 

Take those 5 and realistically the only universal one is perhaps point 5. Now apply this to a bar situation, how do you suggest I use those things on other people to make them feel good?

Sure, I can compliment someone that might make them feel good, I can try make them laugh, perhaps that would be my humour is so dry most totally miss the joke or don't ever understand it to begin with.

 

Ask them about themselves and when they say something you like or you find interesting, tell them that you like it or find it interesting. Then offer up something they might like or find interesting, and repeat.

 

I don't mind constructive feedback nor do I mind insults, I have asked for feedback and have gotten precisely nothing barring the "there is no chemistry" which I consider to be evasive BS of the highest order and plays directly at being superficial.

 

I've been out with plenty of intelligent, attractive women with whom there was no chemistry. It's a legitimate reason not to see someone again, in fact it's probably the most common and honest reason someone could give. Do you think you have chemistry with everyone? If not, why can't you see how easy it is for someone else not to have it with you? You don't like everyone, and not everyone likes you. It's basic knowledge.

 

People just aren't as honest as I would like them to be, which is unfortunate.

 

Saying "there's no chemistry" is perfectly honest. What you mean to say is "people just aren't as specific as I'd like." Maybe there's no chemistry because you're too dry. Maybe there's no chemistry because they don't find you exciting, or funny, or interesting enough, etc. The same reasons you don't like everyone you go out with can be applied to you too, y'know.

 

You can want something very badly and still ultimately never accomplish it, that's simply reality. Resources are finite and perhaps sometimes its best to simply step back and decide if one is using them optimally. Suppose I do want it on some sort of level I am just simply trying to understand a target market, a generic like and when I do I simply realise how few of the things people seem to want I have.

 

Wanting something badly "on some level" and wanting something so badly that you execute on it and continue to do so until you achieve it are completely, entirely different things that separate aspirational people from successful people.

You either get it done, or you don't. The excuses don't matter to me at this point.

 

Sure I can go out and try be more what the target audience wants and I have tried that, tried to be less intense, more humour, smile more but the odd thing is a LIKE very few people, there seldom seems to be any sort of connection. I will admit it does gripe me to have to bend over backwards. I don't see anything wrong with being skinny, quite happy actually to be that, whether society deems I must be something else I don't know.

 

If you don't like these people, if you feel there's no connection, if it bothers you to bend over backwards for someone, what's the problem? Why continue with it? Ideally you should consider a compromise for someone worth it, not for someone you don't like. If the process makes you unhappy otherwise, maybe you should reconsider if it's something you actually want.

 

In my entire life there have only ever been three people I felt any sort of connection with BUT you do vindicate my nice guy niche so thank you very much for admitting tacitly to that. I actually do accept its luck of the draw and you can sit down and list every good thing about yourself and still not have attributes anyone actually wants.

 

"Good things about yourself" are subjective. Your nice guy niche is "good" for society at whole, because it facilitates peace, but it's horrible for finding a partner because it makes womens' ovaries scream "stay away from that nice guy, he's too nice to ever protect you." Things women find attractive don't necessarily coincide with that is conventionally "good." What a mom or thinks is good (like going to church or the lame haircut she gives you) is not the necessarily same as what a potential partner thinks is good, like your motorcycle or your ability to kick anyone's ass.

 

Sure the other guy might have more success but I'd wager he generally likes more people than I do, honesty there is such a small minority of people who appeal to me its easy to just look at all the tries and eventually look around and realise "well the single people are not as many as they once were, I am not 25 anymore".

 

You're picky. So am I, but I don't use it as an excuse. I accept it and work within those circumstances.

 

What you don't get about rejection is this, you simply feel un attractive to anyone and you start extrapolating that over years and its like telling yourself something often enough you end up believing it. If that could be overcome a lot of this would be easier, relatively speaking.

 

Even if you do believe it, you can still keep trying. I can sympathize with someone not having the mental capacity to figure something out (as there's plenty of things I'm sure I could never wrap my head around), but what I can't sympathize with is the weakness of being bound by something intangible as a thought that poses no actual threat to your well being. One guy gets rejected, thinks it's the end of the world, and stops trying. Another guy gets rejected, couldn't care less, moves on, and tries again. One is weak, the other is strong. The strong survive. If you have the strength to dismiss irrational thoughts and fears, you have a better chance of getting what you want. If you don't have the strength, you have a horrible chance. Survival of the fittest.

 

Its not about being defeatist its about being realistic, I am not going to be dating some model, its unrealistic to expect that, yes intellectually I think I can compete, perhaps that comes across here, perhaps not but the problem HOW do you make that count, you can reverse engineer anything you want but if the person doesn't find you attractive it wont work, can we at least agree on that?

 

For a lot of people, you can reverse engineer what they find attractive and apply it to yourself. In an earlier post in this thread, I told you that you could've gone out and listened to what all these women were saying about men, why they liked certain ones, why they didn't, what was attractive, what wasn't, etc. You dismissed that as nonsense. If you had just sat and absorbed that information from these women, you could use it to tweak your attitude or mannerisms to coincide more with the themes you pick up on. I'm not saying change your identity, but if you can deduce that the big theme is "confidence" or "I like guys who don't let me push them around," then maybe you might realize that being so nice and accommodating all the time at your own expense does you more harm than good. If you heard things like that and it clicked in you that some woman actually want you to treat them slightly badly because it shows them you don't take any s***, you don't care about their opinions because subconsciously you think you're more desirable than they are and can do better, and that turns them on, then it's win-win. The girls get a desirable guy and you get their respect. All because you sat, listened, learned something you didn't know, and reverse engineered it to your own advantage.

 

Last question, do I go on my own or take someone as useless at dating as me with me?

 

Just go with the models and don't act scared. They're just people. They want you to be normal and treat them normally.

[ZA Dater]

And you can't tell me I don't deserve the things I got, because I worked harder and smarter for them than anyone I know. I made calculated, difficult, uncomfortable, inconvenient choices that would benefit me in the future rather than irrational, emotional choices that would benefit me in the present at the expense of the future. Now my dividends are being paid. I gave up a lot, risked a lot, worked a lot, and continue to do so. I assessed the situations, I took the risks, I did the work, so I get the reward. It's not my fault other people didn't do the same. I'm sure plenty of them "work hard" or "want it badly," but at the end of the day, if they still don't have what they're after, they didn't work hard enough. You were telling me I can have pizza and still have abs. I'd still rather not intake the minuscule amount of fat/carbs or whatever that's going to reverse my position even slightly -- that's how bad I work for things. I'd rather not have the carbs and have my friends razz me for not drinking. I'd rather stay in and get necessary work done while my friends are wasting time watching football all Sunday. Not only will I "work hard," I'll work harder than everyone else and leave them all in my wake. That's why I'm successful, not because life is a fairytale. It's only seems fairytale now because it was nightmarish trek before and people choose not to see it. Ask anyone who's gotten everything they've wanted what they had to do or sacrifice in order to get it, or if it all just fell into their lap.

 

 

 

If you're happy with your experience, or if you learn something you can take with you and apply elsewhere for your benefit, or if you get something you want, would you not consider that a success?

 

 

 

Ask them about themselves and when they say something you like or you find interesting, tell them that you like it or find it interesting. Then offer up something they might like or find interesting, and repeat.

 

 

 

I've been out with plenty of intelligent, attractive women with whom there was no chemistry. It's a legitimate reason not to see someone again, in fact it's probably the most common and honest reason someone could give. Do you think you have chemistry with everyone? If not, why can't you see how easy it is for someone else not to have it with you? You don't like everyone, and not everyone likes you. It's basic knowledge.

 

 

 

Saying "there's no chemistry" is perfectly honest. What you mean to say is "people just aren't as specific as I'd like." Maybe there's no chemistry because you're too dry. Maybe there's no chemistry because they don't find you exciting, or funny, or interesting enough, etc. The same reasons you don't like everyone you go out with can be applied to you too, y'know.

 

 

 

Wanting something badly "on some level" and wanting something so badly that you execute on it and continue to do so until you achieve it are completely, entirely different things that separate aspirational people from successful people.

You either get it done, or you don't. The excuses don't matter to me at this point.

 

 

 

If you don't like these people, if you feel there's no connection, if it bothers you to bend over backwards for someone, what's the problem? Why continue with it? Ideally you should consider a compromise for someone worth it, not for someone you don't like. If the process makes you unhappy otherwise, maybe you should reconsider if it's something you actually want.

 

 

 

"Good things about yourself" are subjective. Your nice guy niche is "good" for society at whole, because it facilitates peace, but it's horrible for finding a partner because it makes womens' ovaries scream "stay away from that nice guy, he's too nice to ever protect you." Things women find attractive don't necessarily coincide with that is conventionally "good." What a mom or thinks is good (like going to church or the lame haircut she gives you) is not the necessarily same as what a potential partner thinks is good, like your motorcycle or your ability to kick anyone's ass.

 

 

 

You're picky. So am I, but I don't use it as an excuse. I accept it and work within those circumstances.

 

 

 

Even if you do believe it, you can still keep trying. I can sympathize with someone not having the mental capacity to figure something out (as there's plenty of things I'm sure I could never wrap my head around), but what I can't sympathize with is the weakness of being bound by something intangible as a thought that poses no actual threat to your well being. One guy gets rejected, thinks it's the end of the world, and stops trying. Another guy gets rejected, couldn't care less, moves on, and tries again. One is weak, the other is strong. The strong survive. If you have the strength to dismiss irrational thoughts and fears, you have a better chance of getting what you want. If you don't have the strength, you have a horrible chance. Survival of the fittest.

 

 

 

For a lot of people, you can reverse engineer what they find attractive and apply it to yourself. In an earlier post in this thread, I told you that you could've gone out and listened to what all these women were saying about men, why they liked certain ones, why they didn't, what was attractive, what wasn't, etc. You dismissed that as nonsense. If you had just sat and absorbed that information from these women, you could use it to tweak your attitude or mannerisms to coincide more with the themes you pick up on. I'm not saying change your identity, but if you can deduce that the big theme is "confidence" or "I like guys who don't let me push them around," then maybe you might realize that being so nice and accommodating all the time at your own expense does you more harm than good. If you heard things like that and it clicked in you that some woman actually want you to treat them slightly badly because it shows them you don't take any s***, you don't care about their opinions because subconsciously you think you're more desirable than they are and can do better, and that turns them on, then it's win-win. The girls get a desirable guy and you get their respect. All because you sat, listened, learned something you didn't know, and reverse engineered it to your own advantage.

 

 

 

Just go with the models and don't act scared. They're just people. They want you to be normal and treat them normally.

 

You once again miss the fundamental point. You might work hard so do millions of others, hard work does NOT assure success at anything. You seem to think working hard gives you a right to receive things, it doesn't and that's an undisputed fact.

 

I agree, try take something positive from the experience, which is quite tough but the real reason I don't really go, besides the fact I don't enjoy the loudness of the places is the fact I just feel more lonely there than anywhere else. I can sit at home and work and feel mostly quite ok, put me in a bar of a club and I guess the reality that's hidden mostly when I work is hitting me on the head.

 

How many people say anything I find interesting? Actually very few to be truthful but now I guess I just sound arrogant which isn't the point. People live insular lives, few seems to actually care or note what goes on around them so when I face this problem I usually ask them about their work and try take some interest in whatever it is they do. Hobbies, this is a guy thing, I have yet to meet one lady who seems to actually have any, the one I did loved dogs and worked part time at a shelter.

 

If I can get through the initial awkward phase I can move things on conversationally even if initially they don't really interest me, the thing is to ascertain how knowledgeable they are early on and the adopt that sort of level conversationally. This is a balancing act I get wrong far more than I get right and the flipside is if I cant find her interesting I simply just adopt this sort of interested/not interested narrative.

 

Someone worth it, I agree on that, I only ever chase what I really want and think is worth it, unlike some people I know who seemingly chase everything. I tend to weigh up success before I start and its that process which irritates me, sure you need to compete but how exactly because you are taking a shot in dark as to guessing what people actually want.

 

Your comment about rejection suggest someone who has never been rejected for years. Put that shoe on and then talk to me about rejection and its effects on people, there are enough guys on here with the same issue as me, enough who display the same cynicism after years of rejection.

 

The likes of one person hardly translate into the likes of everyone do they, so I can listen to a 100 ladies telling me what they like and sure there will be common things but each one will be different. Did you ever consider I have tried to construct myself into what I think people will like based on observations.

 

I know why I lost out on K, saw the interaction with her bf and he just orders her around which she seems to think is perfectly fine, me not so much, that's not the way I treat people. The flip side is I didn't totally loose out because she is a fairly good friend and seeing I am so desperately short of those its considered a positive.

 

One clarification, I am not nice and accommodating at my own expense, that I don't do.

 

These days I am careful to keep the mire of dating very compartmentalised so the rather unpleasant parts don't seep into other areas of life.