Was I silly to turn this down?

March 13, 2017

You once again miss the fundamental point. You might work hard so do millions of others, hard work does NOT assure success at anything. You seem to think working hard gives you a right to receive things, it doesn't and that's an undisputed fact.

No, you miss the fundamental point. Hard work does not assure success at anything without things like competency, intelligence, pattern recognition, courage, etc. "Working hard" and "expending effort" can be totally fruitless unless you find a way for it to make some sort of noticeably difference in your position. You always hear the quote about trying the same thing over and over again and expecting the same result being the definition of insanity. To me it's also basically the definition of incompetence. So you can claim all you want that you "work hard," as an excuse to complain that you seemingly do what you need with no results, but that isn't it. When I say "work hard," I mean expend the effort across all fronts. Don't just move your feet, incorporate your eyes, ears, brain, and yes, balls, as a unit. Be strong, observant, smart, and courageous all at once.

I agree, try take something positive from the experience, which is quite tough but the real reason I don't really go, besides the fact I don't enjoy the loudness of the places is the fact I just feel more lonely there than anywhere else.

You can either conquer the discomfort, or be conquered by it. Whether or not it bothers you is irrelevant. You aren't going to meet women at home because you don't like loud noises where the women are. It's just another excuse which will take you further away from what you want. The reason you don't go doesn't matter. It's totally insignificant. If you do go, you can meet women. If you have some excuse not to, you can't meet women. It's clear as day. The market doesn't care that you don't like loud noises. It will not bend to you. I don't know how to say it any simpler than that.

You don't like loud noises so you stay at home and don't meet girls. Another guy doesn't like loud noises but he summons the strength and courage to deal with them in order to meet women. He meets them, you don't. End of story. No one cares what excuse you made to stay home, and no one cares what he had to suffer through to get what he wants. But at the end of the day, he got what he wants and you didn't. He fought for it and won. You won't fight, so you get no reward. To the victor go the spoils. Adapt or die.

How many people say anything I find interesting? Actually very few to be truthful but now I guess I just sound arrogant which isn't the point. People live insular lives, few seems to actually care or note what goes on around them so when I face this problem I usually ask them about their work and try take some interest in whatever it is they do. Hobbies, this is a guy thing, I have yet to meet one lady who seems to actually have any, the one I did loved dogs and worked part time at a shelter.

What a pathetic excuse. You're again a beggar who wants to be a chooser. If you want someone else's attention and acknowledgement that bad, then you don't have the luxury of writing them off because they don't interest you, because it will land you where you are currently, which is not where you want to be. Enough excuses already, Jesus. Everyone has things you want, you currently have nothing they want. In what universe do you think you can dictate the terms of the interaction? You have zero leverage, they have it all. If you want their time and attention, you're at their mercy until they want yours. And if you keep acting the way you have been, they never will and things will never change. Either you'll realize this and and make a change for the better, or you'll keep making excuses and they never will. If you don't like it, too bad. You can adapt to it, or die.

If I can get through the initial awkward phase I can move things on conversationally even if initially they don't really interest me, the thing is to ascertain how knowledgeable they are early on and the adopt that sort of level conversationally. This is a balancing act I get wrong far more than I get right and the flipside is if I cant find her interesting I simply just adopt this sort of interested/not interested narrative.

It's not rocket science. Talk about non-invasive aspects of their lives that you find interesting. If you don't find any of it interesting, you better suck it up and learn to pretend to because you're in no position to dismiss it if you want her attention. Adapt to it, or die.

Someone worth it, I agree on that, I only ever chase what I really want and think is worth it, unlike some people I know who seemingly chase everything. I tend to weigh up success before I start and its that process which irritates me, sure you need to compete but how exactly because you are taking a shot in dark as to guessing what people actually want.

You're in no position to pick and choose because the process irritates you. Adapt to it, or die.

Your comment about rejection suggest someone who has never been rejected for years. Put that shoe on and then talk to me about rejection and its effects on people, there are enough guys on here with the same issue as me, enough who display the same cynicism after years of rejection.

The market doesn't care about my, your, or anyone's feelings. You don't get it. Those who can fight through their circumstances, however unfair or horrible they are, and figure out how to get what they want are successful. Those who can't, aren't. You can whine about it forever. It doesn't change anything. There are men who have faced hundreds of rejections and still keep trying, and they have better odds of figuring it out and succeeding than those have faced hundreds and gave up. That's all there is. No one is going to give you the benefit of the doubt because it's been hard or you had your feelings hurt. The market doesn't care. No one cares. That's not a valid excuse. Adapt to the market, or die.

The likes of one person hardly translate into the likes of everyone do they, so I can listen to a 100 ladies telling me what they like and sure there will be common things but each one will be different. Did you ever consider I have tried to construct myself into what I think people will like based on observations.

I can consider the fact that because you don't have what you want, and are an endless pile of excuses as to why, that you haven't done enough. You aren't fearless enough, you aren't observant enough, you aren't pragmatic enough, you aren't strong enough. Period. I've learned plenty from listening to women and I applied it elsewhere. I know it works. The fact that you think you have the authority to tell me how it really is without ever doing it yourself in any meaningful way is laughable.

I know why I lost out on K, saw the interaction with her bf and he just orders her around which she seems to think is perfectly fine, me not so much, that's not the way I treat people.

Congratulations(?). You're very nice. You have glaring evidence sitting in front of you (accompanied by a lifetime of it) and you choose to still ignore it. "The way [you] treat people" isn't necessarily conducive to getting what you want, so you can stop using it as a badge of honor in this scenario. The evidence is clear, from your mouth: This girl likes a man who orders her around, and doesn't view your sexually, possibly because that's not the way you treat people. You've always mentioned how nice you are, and complained about how women like men who aren't nice. HAVE YOU NOTICED THE PATTERN YET??? At what point are you going to realize that the examples in your 33 of years of observations aren't anomalies? That's the way it is? That it's the rule, not the exception? Women tend to like authoritative, aggressive, leaders who lead them. They tend not to like weak, passive, nice men who they have to lead. You either don't have the observational skills to realize this, and/or you don't have the adaptability to implement the necessary change to benefit from it. That's basically why you're in this situation. You don't recognize these patterns and even if you do, you don't adapt to them in an advantageous way. Adapt or die.

The flip side is I didn't totally loose out because she is a fairly good friend and seeing I am so desperately short of those its considered a positive.

As I said in a previous post, saying something like "I know she has a boyfriend, but I'm just happy to be in the same room with her," as if she's just going to wake up one day and suddenly realize that you're such an amazing, caring, nice, misunderstood, respectable person that's been there for her all along and then leave her boyfriend for you is a surefire way for it to never, ever, happen. Few things could be less appealing than advertising and reveling in how much of a spineless bottom feeder you are. You'd honestly have better luck ignoring her entirely and being with someone else. She then might not think of you as such a feeble, soft, person and notice that you're actually capable of competing for and getting someone you want. But as of now, your contentedness with not having what you want, your willful acceptance of not having to fight for things you desire, the fact you're actually happy that you just get to talk to a woman even if you have no chance of ever getting more, labels you the weakest of the weak in her mind. Emasculated and not sexually viable. This attitude is nuking any chance you might ever have with her.

Either start observing things, recognizing the patterns, and adapting to them, or you will be in this position forever. I'm not sure how much more of my life I can waste convincing you not to waste yours.

March 14, 2017

No, you miss the fundamental point. Hard work does not assure success at anything without things like competency, intelligence, pattern recognition, courage, etc. "Working hard" and "expending effort" can be totally fruitless unless you find a way for it to make some sort of noticeably difference in your position. You always hear the quote about trying the same thing over and over again and expecting the same result being the definition of insanity. To me it's also basically the definition of incompetence. So you can claim all you want that you "work hard," as an excuse to complain that you seemingly do what you need with no results, but that isn't it. When I say "work hard," I mean expend the effort across all fronts. Don't just move your feet, incorporate your eyes, ears, brain, and yes, balls, as a unit. Be strong, observant, smart, and courageous all at once.

You can either conquer the discomfort, or be conquered by it. Whether or not it bothers you is irrelevant. You aren't going to meet women at home because you don't like loud noises where the women are. It's just another excuse which will take you further away from what you want. The reason you don't go doesn't matter. It's totally insignificant. If you do go, you can meet women. If you have some excuse not to, you can't meet women. It's clear as day. The market doesn't care that you don't like loud noises. It will not bend to you. I don't know how to say it any simpler than that.

You don't like loud noises so you stay at home and don't meet girls. Another guy doesn't like loud noises but he summons the strength and courage to deal with them in order to meet women. He meets them, you don't. End of story. No one cares what excuse you made to stay home, and no one cares what he had to suffer through to get what he wants. But at the end of the day, he got what he wants and you didn't. He fought for it and won. You won't fight, so you get no reward. To the victor go the spoils. Adapt or die.

What a pathetic excuse. You're again a beggar who wants to be a chooser. If you want someone else's attention and acknowledgement that bad, then you don't have the luxury of writing them off because they don't interest you, because it will land you where you are currently, which is not where you want to be. Enough excuses already, Jesus. Everyone has things you want, you currently have nothing they want. In what universe do you think you can dictate the terms of the interaction? You have zero leverage, they have it all. If you want their time and attention, you're at their mercy until they want yours. And if you keep acting the way you have been, they never will and things will never change. Either you'll realize this and and make a change for the better, or you'll keep making excuses and they never will. If you don't like it, too bad. You can adapt to it, or die.

It's not rocket science. Talk about non-invasive aspects of their lives that you find interesting. If you don't find any of it interesting, you better suck it up and learn to pretend to because you're in no position to dismiss it if you want her attention. Adapt to it, or die.

You're in no position to pick and choose because the process irritates you. Adapt to it, or die.

The market doesn't care about my, your, or anyone's feelings. You don't get it. Those who can fight through their circumstances, however unfair or horrible they are, and figure out how to get what they want are successful. Those who can't, aren't. You can whine about it forever. It doesn't change anything. There are men who have faced hundreds of rejections and still keep trying, and they have better odds of figuring it out and succeeding than those have faced hundreds and gave up. That's all there is. No one is going to give you the benefit of the doubt because it's been hard or you had your feelings hurt. The market doesn't care. No one cares. That's not a valid excuse. Adapt to the market, or die.

I can consider the fact that because you don't have what you want, and are an endless pile of excuses as to why, that you haven't done enough. You aren't fearless enough, you aren't observant enough, you aren't pragmatic enough, you aren't strong enough. Period. I've learned plenty from listening to women and I applied it elsewhere. I know it works. The fact that you think you have the authority to tell me how it really is without ever doing it yourself in any meaningful way is laughable.

Congratulations(?). You're very nice. You have glaring evidence sitting in front of you (accompanied by a lifetime of it) and you choose to still ignore it. "The way [you] treat people" isn't necessarily conducive to getting what you want, so you can stop using it as a badge of honor in this scenario. The evidence is clear, from your mouth: This girl likes a man who orders her around, and doesn't view your sexually, possibly because that's not the way you treat people. You've always mentioned how nice you are, and complained about how women like men who aren't nice. HAVE YOU NOTICED THE PATTERN YET??? At what point are you going to realize that the examples in your 33 of years of observations aren't anomalies? That's the way it is? That it's the rule, not the exception? Women tend to like authoritative, aggressive, leaders who lead them. They tend not to like weak, passive, nice men who they have to lead. You either don't have the observational skills to realize this, and/or you don't have the adaptability to implement the necessary change to benefit from it. That's basically why you're in this situation. You don't recognize these patterns and even if you do, you don't adapt to them in an advantageous way. Adapt or die.

As I said in a previous post, saying something like "I know she has a boyfriend, but I'm just happy to be in the same room with her," as if she's just going to wake up one day and suddenly realize that you're such an amazing, caring, nice, misunderstood, respectable person that's been there for her all along and then leave her boyfriend for you is a surefire way for it to never, ever, happen. Few things could be less appealing than advertising and reveling in how much of a spineless bottom feeder you are. You'd honestly have better luck ignoring her entirely and being with someone else. She then might not think of you as such a feeble, soft, person and notice that you're actually capable of competing for and getting someone you want. But as of now, your contentedness with not having what you want, your willful acceptance of not having to fight for things you desire, the fact you're actually happy that you just get to talk to a woman even if you have no chance of ever getting more, labels you the weakest of the weak in her mind. Emasculated and not sexually viable. This attitude is nuking any chance you might ever have with her.

Either start observing things, recognizing the patterns, and adapting to them, or you will be in this position forever. I'm not sure how much more of my life I can waste convincing you not to waste yours.

You conveniently ignore my example of others on this forum, are you saying there are all incompetent to? That's a stretch at best considering you know neither them nor me.

Life is about choice and I choose to spend time at places I like and enjoy, going to places I don't enjoy just because I might meet someone there is completely nonsensical and perhaps the very reason we have a society full of sheep who simply wonder through life doing what everyone else does because well everyone else does it. Look around you and tell me I am wrong. I don't think I am.

If you are good at football do you play cricket, of course not. Someone said to me stick to what you are good at or improve as much as you can in other areas. Unfortunately based on your synopsis all dating is being a false person in the hope that another false person with feigned interest might attract another false person with feigned interest. Lovely.

A friend to me of interest is more valuable than someone who is interested in me but uninteresting or not what I want. Its about making the best of what you have and the situation you are in. I think there is a direct relation between the ability to form friendships and the ability to date, I have never managed to do the former(even with guys) so its not great surprise I cant do the latter, as much as it irritates me at times.

Do me a favour, read the posts on here by guys who always get rejected, if its so ok then why does it take a toll on them, why does it make people bitter. Frankly I don't think given your apparent record of universal success you are in any position to lecture me about how normal rejection is.

Works for you yes, did it ever cross your mind you don't represent the world's population nor the success or not of dating? What you basically are saying is you listen to 100 people, take aspects then use those aspects to manipulate people to get what you want? Or am I missing something?

The fact of the matter is you aren't me and I am not you, probably thankfully on both counts to be fair. I appreciate the advice given and sure one can adapt but only so far, I have given a nod to society in terms of appearance, I may have given a nod in terms of a few visits to clubs, I may have done the same with OLD and I even ventured into the murky world of seeking arrangement, which in reality brought the most "success" in terms of actually getting people interested in me.

I said it before in the past and I'll say it again, its great people who find success, really there is no bitterness from me at all, enjoy the success, however the same things don't lead to the same results for everyone which isn't an excuse. Somewhere along the line it doesn't work for some of us and fighting, fighting the need to want someone, the need to be with someone, eventually you need to just use your brain and use cold hard logic and yes perhaps I have nothing anyone wants, sure that hurts but you know what when I look into the mirror I don't hate what I see and if nobody I want likes that, then so be it. I like that which ultimately is probably the most important thing of all.

I'll go and try some of this advice, I probably owe you that much to at least try and I'll try put my own bias and conclusions aside for a couple of hours.

March 14, 2017

You conveniently ignore my example of others on this forum, are you saying there are all incompetent to? That's a stretch at best considering you know neither them nor me.

There are plenty of people who don't have successes or things they want. They probably should all be looked at on a case by case basis, but I'm sure you wouldn't have to dig very hard to find a common theme in a lot of them: poor observation, poor pattern recognition, lack of execution, laziness, excuses, fear, etc. Call all that what you will. At the end of the day, you either find a way to get the things you want, or you can't/won't.

Life is about choice and I choose to spend time at places I like and enjoy,

for you, at what expense? Again, a beggar who wants to be a chooser.

going to places I don't enjoy just because I might meet someone there is completely nonsensical

Tell that to all the people who it benefitted. You're as quick to dismiss things that might benefit your dating life as you are to complain about your dating life. Don't you see a problem there? That's absolutely laughable. Doing as you like and avoiding things you don't like is a large reason you're in the position you're in. Go ahead and do things you like and avoid things you don't on the premise that "life is about choice," but then stop complaining that you have such bad luck with women, because it's their choice then not do those things you like and meet you while you do them. They don't do them. And that's too bad for you, because you want their time and attention. It's amazing to me how you can't see this. Go ahead and enjoy your choices, but stop complaining that they also don't bring you what you desire. You can't have it both ways.

and perhaps the very reason we have a society full of sheep who simply wonder through life doing what everyone else does because well everyone else does it. Look around you and tell me I am wrong. I don't think I am.

If a man wants a woman, but he hates the loud noises and at atmosphere of a bar, but he braves the environment there against his will to meet women in spite of his discomfort, he has my applause. He did what he needed to get what he wanted. He fought fear and discomfort. He didn't do it because "everyone else does it," he did it because he wanted something and realized he needed to do something to get it. Everyone coincidentally doing the same thing, whether they enjoy it or not, is totally coincidental. They all just realize and accept it's a good way of meeting someone, while you dismiss them for being "sheep." Lots of times, things are popular because they work. You, constantly complaining about your lack of women, are in no position to denounce people as "sheep" for doing whatever necessary to get women. Those men are smart and adaptable enough to realize that women won't come to them on those mens' terms, they need to do what's necessary even if it's not something they enjoy. That's the difference between them and you. You want to sit in your high tower, single, and call them sheep while they're in the trenches doing the work for what they want. When they eventually emerge with girlfriends, I wonder if you'll still have the nerve to call them "sheep."

If you are good at football do you play cricket, of course not. Someone said to me stick to what you are good at or improve as much as you can in other areas. Unfortunately based on your synopsis all dating is being a false person in the hope that another false person with feigned interest might attract another false person with feigned interest. Lovely.

If you try and twist my words again I'll stop trying to help you. I never said "all dating is being a false person." The theme is you have to fight, compete, improve, face fears, etc. If that to is being "false," then so be it. To me they're necessary improvements. To you it's a crime against complacent identity. But I know which one gets me things I want and which one doesn't get you what you want.

I think there is a direct relation between the ability to form friendships and the ability to date, I have never managed to do the former(even with guys) so its not great surprise I cant do the latter, as much as it irritates me at times.

And let me guess, you have no interest in doing any work to get any better at it?

Do me a favour, read the posts on here by guys who always get rejected, if its so ok then why does it take a toll on them, why does it make people bitter. Frankly I don't think given your apparent record of universal success you are in any position to lecture me about how normal rejection is.

You don't get it. I'm not saying you don't get rejected or you don't feel bad about it. Those aren't your problems, it's your inability to get up, dust yourself off, realize that it's all in your mind, and try again -- that's your problem. Again, you get rejected 10 times and sulk about it. Someone else gets rejected 10 times, thinks it's completely irrelevant moving forward because he has the strength to conquer his emotions and fears, keeps trying, learns from his mistakes, and maybe is successful on the 15th or 20th time. That's the difference. The second guy realizes the market doesn't care about his feelings, good or bad. He's, strong, smart, and adaptable enough to realize that his rejection at the hands of one person is independent of his chances with someone else; a blank slate. He also realizes that his pain is totally inconsequential to his chances. He has the ability to adapt and move forward, you, or people who get conquered by fear, don't. The world will continue to spin regardless of how you feel and the market will continue not to bend. Look at the situation from the point of view of a passive observer and it might click for you. The only reason you stop yourself from proceeding is because your invisible feelings got hurt and you decided that was a good excuse never to try again. The other guy is stronger than you, he can fight his fear better, and he will get his reward eventually. You'll think fear is a good excuse to stop trying.

A man once wanted to start a company, but he needed a loan. He went to one bank and got rejected. He went to another and got rejected. He went and got rejected by 239 more before he finally got his loan. With that loan he built Starbucks. If you were him, at what point would you stop asking for loans because you got your feelings hurt?

Works for you yes, did it ever cross your mind you don't represent the world's population nor the success or not of dating?

And what do you think the variable is?

What you basically are saying is you listen to 100 people, take aspects then use those aspects to manipulate people to get what you want? Or am I missing something?

That's not what I'm "basically saying." I've said listening to people has helped me as I've been able to use the information to my advantage. And guess what? It's beneficial for all involved. If I like women, and I tweak things so that they like me, and therefore we're both happy and better off, I'd consider that a win-win. Sort of like if a woman realizes I like thin women, and goes to the gym, and she looks good and I like that about her, it's mutually beneficial. I don't think that's "manipulative," I think it's survival of the fittest. Nice attempt at an ad hominem attack, though.

I'll go and try some of this advice, I probably owe you that much to at least try and I'll try put my own bias and conclusions aside for a couple of hours.

Don't do it for me, do it for yourself.

March 15, 2017

There are plenty of people who don't have successes or things they want. They probably should all be looked at on a case by case basis, but I'm sure you wouldn't have to dig very hard to find a common theme in a lot of them: poor observation, poor pattern recognition, lack of execution, laziness, excuses, fear, etc. Call all that what you will. At the end of the day, you either find a way to get the things you want, or you can't/won't.

for you, at what expense? Again, a beggar who wants to be a chooser.

Tell that to all the people who it benefitted. You're as quick to dismiss things that might benefit your dating life as you are to complain about your dating life. Don't you see a problem there? That's absolutely laughable. Doing as you like and avoiding things you don't like is a large reason you're in the position you're in. Go ahead and do things you like and avoid things you don't on the premise that "life is about choice," but then stop complaining that you have such bad luck with women, because it's their choice then not do those things you like and meet you while you do them. They don't do them. And that's too bad for you, because you want their time and attention. It's amazing to me how you can't see this. Go ahead and enjoy your choices, but stop complaining that they also don't bring you what you desire. You can't have it both ways.

If a man wants a woman, but he hates the loud noises and at atmosphere of a bar, but he braves the environment there against his will to meet women in spite of his discomfort, he has my applause. He did what he needed to get what he wanted. He fought fear and discomfort. He didn't do it because "everyone else does it," he did it because he wanted something and realized he needed to do something to get it. Everyone coincidentally doing the same thing, whether they enjoy it or not, is totally coincidental. They all just realize and accept it's a good way of meeting someone, while you dismiss them for being "sheep." Lots of times, things are popular because they work. You, constantly complaining about your lack of women, are in no position to denounce people as "sheep" for doing whatever necessary to get women. Those men are smart and adaptable enough to realize that women won't come to them on those mens' terms, they need to do what's necessary even if it's not something they enjoy. That's the difference between them and you. You want to sit in your high tower, single, and call them sheep while they're in the trenches doing the work for what they want. When they eventually emerge with girlfriends, I wonder if you'll still have the nerve to call them "sheep."

If you try and twist my words again I'll stop trying to help you. I never said "all dating is being a false person." The theme is you have to fight, compete, improve, face fears, etc. If that to is being "false," then so be it. To me they're necessary improvements. To you it's a crime against complacent identity. But I know which one gets me things I want and which one doesn't get you what you want.

And let me guess, you have no interest in doing any work to get any better at it?

You don't get it. I'm not saying you don't get rejected or you don't feel bad about it. Those aren't your problems, it's your inability to get up, dust yourself off, realize that it's all in your mind, and try again -- that's your problem. Again, you get rejected 10 times and sulk about it. Someone else gets rejected 10 times, thinks it's completely irrelevant moving forward because he has the strength to conquer his emotions and fears, keeps trying, learns from his mistakes, and maybe is successful on the 15th or 20th time. That's the difference. The second guy realizes the market doesn't care about his feelings, good or bad. He's, strong, smart, and adaptable enough to realize that his rejection at the hands of one person is independent of his chances with someone else; a blank slate. He also realizes that his pain is totally inconsequential to his chances. He has the ability to adapt and move forward, you, or people who get conquered by fear, don't. The world will continue to spin regardless of how you feel and the market will continue not to bend. Look at the situation from the point of view of a passive observer and it might click for you. The only reason you stop yourself from proceeding is because your invisible feelings got hurt and you decided that was a good excuse never to try again. The other guy is stronger than you, he can fight his fear better, and he will get his reward eventually. You'll think fear is a good excuse to stop trying.

A man once wanted to start a company, but he needed a loan. He went to one bank and got rejected. He went to another and got rejected. He went and got rejected by 239 more before he finally got his loan. With that loan he built Starbucks. If you were him, at what point would you stop asking for loans because you got your feelings hurt?

And what do you think the variable is?

That's not what I'm "basically saying." I've said listening to people has helped me as I've been able to use the information to my advantage. And guess what? It's beneficial for all involved. If I like women, and I tweak things so that they like me, and therefore we're both happy and better off, I'd consider that a win-win. Sort of like if a woman realizes I like thin women, and goes to the gym, and she looks good and I like that about her, it's mutually beneficial. I don't think that's "manipulative," I think it's survival of the fittest. Nice attempt at an ad hominem attack, though.

Don't do it for me, do it for yourself.

Well my forthcoming club/bar experiment aside I don't see much of an issue doing the things I enjoy, if I meet someone great if not well then so be it. I am not going to stop doing things I like and filling my life with things I don't all for the objective of meeting someone, there has to be some balance here.

You cannot equate loans to dating, I am quite happy to muck in the trenches in the business world, there its just cold logic and analytical thinking rather than any emotion involved, be that as it may the point still stands, try until someone says yes and just hope that person is actually fairly nice. Very often I just see people like me settling for the first person who actually likes them and I can understand that to a degree because it must be nice, equally so I find it severely short sighted because the same rules apply to guys as they do ladies, if there is no attraction there is no attraction, I used to think one could grow attraction but realistically this is the plot of a movie not of life.

Actually you are wrong, I am setting out to simply talk to people, interact with them, random people I run into everyday, I started that yesterday so that piece of advice has been taken on board.

Fine, do what you want to get things but then process versus reward kicks in, is the end result worth the process? That's subjective but to me it is IF I actually like the person on multiple levels. This is the thing, honestly tell me how many people do you meet that you find attractive on multiple levels? Or is it a case of liking one thing and then getting to like something else in addition? Honest question.

When I did chase I did so misguidedly and for the most part I did what I thought was right and ended up with a pancake on the floor scenario. Sure, I agree one can adapt but its difficult to decide what to adapt to that was my point with 100 ladies, each one has their own likes, you can then average that out I suppose but still might end up being the wrong thing for the person sitting in front of you.

A question for you is this? Do you go after people who aren't single or just single people? In the context of the former do you try and tailor yourself to provided resources and qualities the current bf doesn't have and in the latter do you fish openly as to what the person actually find attractive?

Sure, I get the fact someone may not be successful all of the time but is some form of success not the motivation to continue? Its extremely difficult to figure out what goes wrong for me but the fundamentals are one or both the following

1: No attraction/chemistry

2: Boyfriend

I have heard this one before "I am just having fun", what exactly does this mean, does this mean she is sleeping around, does this mean she is leading people on, does this mean she isn't looking? Does it mean all of those?

You wont agree but I think people can occupy niches and be successful if people don't judge them harshly for occupying that particular niche. Why am I not overtly authoritarian, because what I picked up is most people don't really like that, you cannot really apply what one person might like to another person because no two people are seemingly the same.

Do you ask people out with any degree of expectation or with the 'oh well if she says yes great, if not well so be it". Do ascertain if they are single first (obviously I am not talking about married people here)? For some stupid reason years ago I adopted this "if I cant ascertain if she is single I wont ask her out".

I'll actually make an effort to try and fit in some of the time, even if it means I must talk utter rubbish in order to do so.

March 15, 2017

Ya, you were totally silly. Why is this even a 6 page thread. I mean, you literally wrote a ****ing novel here.

Girl wants to have fun with you, go have fun. You won't regret that, because you'll have fun. Do that till you figure something better out than writing a wall of text on a forum. It's gonna be the death of you.

March 15, 2017

I really don't see the point in thrashing this out.

Normal Person is advocating change - as in making this a thing that becomes part of your life.

ZA, you only seem not even that willing to go but it sounds to me like you'll only go one time - and then I bet we'll see a thread on here complaining about it and saying you have tried. One time is not trying - it takes more than one visit to these types of places to grow rapport with people who attend.

I never liked clubs when I was younger - I went because it was the place to go and meet new people.

I still don't like them but yep, I'll go '(to some) if that is part of the plan that night with friends.

Change your behaviour and your attitude will change but you can't do something just once or a handful of times and then come back to complain it hasn't worked. That's not even trying.

March 15, 2017

What happens when you do find a wonderful woman, you start dating, and she wants you to do something that puts you out of your comfort zone? Relationships are full of compromising and doing things for your partner that you may find uncomfortable. What happens when you are unwilling to step out of your comfort zone with your SO?

March 15, 2017

I really don't see the point in thrashing this out.

Normal Person is advocating change - as in making this a thing that becomes part of your life.
ZA, you only seem not even that willing to go but it sounds to me like you'll only go one time - and then I bet we'll see a thread on here complaining about it and saying you have tried. One time is not trying - it takes more than one visit to these types of places to grow rapport with people who attend.

I never liked clubs when I was younger - I went because it was the place to go and meet new people.
I still don't like them but yep, I'll go '(to some) if that is part of the plan that night with friends.

Change your behaviour and your attitude will change but you can't do something just once or a handful of times and then come back to complain it hasn't worked. That's not even trying.

I am hardly going to spend my weekend in clubs but I am prepared to go every so often. I am never going to buy into the "its the place to go in order to meet people", the reality is you can meet people anywhere. I used to go to clubs fairly often and just found the experience ever more dispiriting, for the sake of this I am prepared to try and look past that and somehow find something good about the experience.

You will be pleased to know I do try and smile more often and do try to lighten up, its easier with a few and difficult with many but I do try. In fact later today I might see if I can actually ask someone out. I get her to laugh fairly easily and dunno she seems to get me on some level and the banter seems to be good and spontaneous, whether she is single I don't know but I guess one needs to venture something sometimes. I re read through the advice and decided I am going to actually try implement some of it.

I do ask myself if it is all worth it though and often I try without success to try fill the void with other things. Compromise with a gf I am fine with, absolutely, compromising with no specific end objective to me is silly and in my view compromising who you are to attract someone just shows then a false side of you, one which isn't sustainable in the long term.

March 15, 2017

Fine, do what you want to get things but then process versus reward kicks in, is the end result worth the process? That's subjective but to me it is IF I actually like the person on multiple levels. This is the thing, honestly tell me how many people do you meet that you find attractive on multiple levels? Or is it a case of liking one thing and then getting to like something else in addition? Honest question.

Whether or not the end result is worth the process is also subjective. I can't answer that for you. I meet 1-2 people a year that I find attractive on multiple levels. These are the marriage candidates: smart, accomplished, driven, funny, beautiful, etc. Complete packages. But I have high standards. I'm have little interest in beautiful women who aren't intelligent and funny or intelligent, funny women who aren't that nice to look at. That's just the way it is. They're hard to come by.

When I did chase I did so misguidedly and for the most part I did what I thought was right and ended up with a pancake on the floor scenario. Sure, I agree one can adapt but its difficult to decide what to adapt to that was my point with 100 ladies, each one has their own likes, you can then average that out I suppose but still might end up being the wrong thing for the person sitting in front of you.

As I mentioned before, most people like the same things, coincidentally, those things will enrich your life: confidence, success, charm, fearlessness, etc. I'm not saying tailor yourself to a specific person, I'm saying become a genuinely better person on all fronts, you'll enjoy your life more and the women will be a byproduct of that. Optimize your time on Earth and it will increase your enjoyment of life exponentially.

A question for you is this? Do you go after people who aren't single or just single people? In the context of the former do you try and tailor yourself to provided resources and qualities the current bf doesn't have and in the latter do you fish openly as to what the person actually find attractive?

I'm not one to step on another guy's toes. And again, I don't "tailor" myself, I just try and be the absolute best person I can be, and that's usually appealing to everyone. If I'm good enough, better enough, a girl can leave a guy for me on her volition. I won't force her hand. If my appeal isn't enough to make her jump ship, then so be it. Maybe I wasn't good enough. Maybe the circumstances weren't advantageous. The market decides my fate, and I respect the market above all else.

Recently I was thinking about moving to a new state for a tax break. I met a girl in a new state who I thought was an absolute goddess, basically my dream girl. So I went down there a few times to visit her and look at houses, and I told her the truth -- I was thinking about moving there. Well, long story short, I didn't think fast enough, I didn't move, and she's found someone else. Did I complain to her how "unfair" this was? No. Did I cry to her about all the money I spent visiting her and all the time I invested? No. Because at the end of the day, she didn't owe me anything, and it was my indecision and fearfulness about moving and starting a new life that cost me the opportunity and landed me in the position I'm in. I accept that. HOWEVER, if I do end up moving, I'm not entirely convinced she'll still want to be with this other guy (even thought I know nothing about him) over me because I've put in the work to be the best person I can be, and I'm betting he hasn't. In the event that it's a "competition," my chances aren't so abysmal. She can choose who she wants, I won't force her hand, but I'll make it painfully obvious to her that she's making the wrong choice by being with someone else until she comes on board. But if this happens it'll be through things and methods that people find universally attractive, not just this specific woman. The methodology is not to "steal" someone, it's to compete so much harder and be so much better than the competition that you don't even have to steal, she'll make the decision on her own because you're that much more appealing to her. Survival of the fittest.

Sure, I get the fact someone may not be successful all of the time but is some form of success not the motivation to continue?

It depends on the person, doesn't it? Having enough "success" might bore some people. Not having any might anger, spur, and invigorate others. It all depends on how each individual reacts.

Its extremely difficult to figure out what goes wrong for me but the fundamentals are one or both the following
1: No attraction/chemistry
2: Boyfriend

Here are my responses but I'm sure you don't want to hear them:

1). Be more attractive (interesting, intriguing, funny, successful, etc, each person will have their own particular desires but you cover a lot ton of bases if you just try to generally be a better, more optimized human being)

2). Search harder to find someone without a boyfriend, or be better so much better than the boyfriend that she wants to leave him for you

I have heard this one before "I am just having fun", what exactly does this mean, does this mean she is sleeping around, does this mean she is leading people on, does this mean she isn't looking? Does it mean all of those?

It could mean any or all the above, it could mean anything else. It means whatever she wants it to mean. It's subjective.

You wont agree but I think people can occupy niches and be successful if people don't judge them harshly for occupying that particular niche. Why am I not overtly authoritarian, because what I picked up is most people don't really like that, you cannot really apply what one person might like to another person because no two people are seemingly the same.

I'm sure some probably can under specific circumstances. There might be some women out there who will fall for your "overly nice at the expense of his own sexual dignity" niche, but my bet it will only be because she's in a similarly marginalized position and can't get any other man for that reason. It's possible, but don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen, especially considering you've said you have high standards and even if you did meet this woman, you probably wouldn't like her.

Do you ask people out with any degree of expectation or with the 'oh well if she says yes great, if not well so be it". Do ascertain if they are single first (obviously I am not talking about married people here)? For some stupid reason years ago I adopted this "if I cant ascertain if she is single I wont ask her out".

I never ask people out without knowing the answer, doing so otherwise is a fool's game. If I'm using OLD, I only go out with women who message, "like," match, "wink" at me, etc. There is 100% success rate on that method. If I meet someone in person and I have a good feeling about it, I take a series of elevated risks until I'm confident I know they want to go out with me, then it's easy. If I meet someone and get talking and they don't seem responsive, or if they tap out at some point when I'm taking my series of elevated risks, then I don't proceed. The macro lesson is

1). continually try and be great person

2). if you can do that successfully, women will want to be with you

3). pick the ones you want from that pool and cut your losses quickly with the others

I'll actually make an effort to try and fit in some of the time, even if it means I must talk utter rubbish in order to do so.

I didn't say "talk utter rubbish." The lesson isn't "lie to people," it's "be better and adaptable even if it's uncomfortable for you."

March 15, 2017

OP, if you have time it wouldn't hurt you to watch this, in particular the last half hour or so.

Joe Rogan isn't always the sharpest tool in the shed but I can't help but echo his outlook on life sometimes (struggle, discomfort, hard work will make you better, always try to improve somehow and be the best person you can during your short time on Earth). Think what you want about him and Peña but for my money they have a great discussion here and it's something you should watch, it expounds on a lot of things I've mentioned that you think are totally dubious. Maybe hearing it from two demonstrably successful people will finally drive the point home for you:

"Just be a great person and people will want to f*** you."

"A great man and a weak man have the same fear, just one responds to it a different way."

"It's not what happens to you in life, it's how you react to what happens to you in life."

"[You believe in] Commitment, focus, honor, hard work, discipline. That's what made this country great."

"Well that's what makes people great. Comfort is not what makes people great."

"Getting out of your comfort zone is the reason millennial have such a hard time now."

[...]

"Anything can be changed if we want it bad enough and we're willing to pay the price to get into action. It's gonna be painful."

"I think people need to understand that there are consequences you pay to constantly seek comfort, and avoiding discomfort and avoiding hard work. And those consequences are: you're never gonna feel self-realized, you're never gonna feel like you accomplished anything, you're never gonna have this understanding that difficulty and struggle, and the ability to push through that is a muscle [and if you exercise it], you understand that you can overcome obstacles. "

"I'm the last saloon. You've tried everyone else who tells you being successful is easy. I tell you the exact opposite -- it's a motherf****** to be successful."

"If love got the job done, we'd have a perfect world with no wars. Love doesn't get the f****** job done."

"What does get the job done?"

"Pulling the trigger, taking action, following your dream."

March 16, 2017

Dude, even if you don't like bars there seriously have to be one place that:

a) you would enjoy

and

b) single women are willing to converse with you

Seriously, there has to be some sort of meet-up or event you'd enjoy that has some available women.

March 16, 2017

I never ask people out without knowing the answer, doing so otherwise is a fool's game. If I'm using OLD, I only go out with women who message, "like," match, "wink" at me, etc. There is 100% success rate on that method. If I meet someone in person and I have a good feeling about it, I take a series of elevated risks until I'm confident I know they want to go out with me, then it's easy. If I meet someone and get talking and they don't seem responsive, or if they tap out at some point when I'm taking my series of elevated risks, then I don't proceed. The macro lesson is

1). continually try and be great person
2). if you can do that successfully, women will want to be with you
3). pick the ones you want from that pool and cut your losses quickly with the others

There were many things that jumped out at me but this I noticed first.

Are you suggesting most of your success is from OLD? What if you need to actually work and make people like you, where do you draw the line with this, there are many way, most involve some sort of deceit or talking up to some degree.

The reason I ask is I NEVER meet anyone single EVER. I simply don't, everyone I seem to like is never single.

March 16, 2017

Are you suggesting most of your success is from OLD? What if you need to actually work and make people like you, where do you draw the line with this, there are many way, most involve some sort of deceit or talking up to some degree.

I meet a lot of people through OLD. That's more circumstantial because I work from and for myself. I rely on OLD a lot especially this time of year because it's very cold here and it's a lot easier for people to sit inside, warm in their sweatpants and flip through their aps as opposed to the whole production of trying to get dressed up to look good/be practical about the horrible weather and snow on the ground just to potentially meet someone. OLD is like a bar you're always in, always looking your best.

When it's warm here it's very easy to meet people in this city especially because it's so compact and densely populated. So when you do go out here, it's not a problem. In person I use the same principle, basically make her like you (this is psychology, not deceit) rather than do "work." Work implies that you think of her affection, time, and attention as something that needs to be attained rather than make her attain yours. Don't assume you have to work for someone -- be great, and they'll want to work for you. Meeting people through friends and coworkers is also a very easy option.

The reason I ask is I NEVER meet anyone single EVER. I simply don't, everyone I seem to like is never single.

The older you get, the more your age group skews towards long term relationships. Luckily for you, you're 33 and that's typically considered the "prime" of a man's life. You could potentially date someone as young as her early 20s (though I wouldn't recommend anyone that young) without it being considered odd. And lots of younger women like older men because they're usually more distinguished and accomplished. Since you haven't had a wife and kids to dedicate your time and discretionary income towards, I'm assuming you've used your time wisely and are in a good spot to appeal to someone as such. I wouldn't fret, just look a little harder and explore every avenue. Being a single man in your 30s is pretty much as good as it gets. You're accomplished, not so old that you can't be "fun," and everyone gives you their respect.

March 17, 2017

Whether or not the end result is worth the process is also subjective. I can't answer that for you. I meet 1-2 people a year that I find attractive on multiple levels. These are the marriage candidates: smart, accomplished, driven, funny, beautiful, etc. Complete packages. But I have high standards. I'm have little interest in beautiful women who aren't intelligent and funny or intelligent, funny women who aren't that nice to look at. That's just the way it is. They're hard to come by.

As I mentioned before, most people like the same things, coincidentally, those things will enrich your life: confidence, success, charm, fearlessness, etc. I'm not saying tailor yourself to a specific person, I'm saying become a genuinely better person on all fronts, you'll enjoy your life more and the women will be a byproduct of that. Optimize your time on Earth and it will increase your enjoyment of life exponentially.

I'm not one to step on another guy's toes. And again, I don't "tailor" myself, I just try and be the absolute best person I can be, and that's usually appealing to everyone. If I'm good enough, better enough, a girl can leave a guy for me on her volition. I won't force her hand. If my appeal isn't enough to make her jump ship, then so be it. Maybe I wasn't good enough. Maybe the circumstances weren't advantageous. The market decides my fate, and I respect the market above all else.

Recently I was thinking about moving to a new state for a tax break. I met a girl in a new state who I thought was an absolute goddess, basically my dream girl. So I went down there a few times to visit her and look at houses, and I told her the truth -- I was thinking about moving there. Well, long story short, I didn't think fast enough, I didn't move, and she's found someone else. Did I complain to her how "unfair" this was? No. Did I cry to her about all the money I spent visiting her and all the time I invested? No. Because at the end of the day, she didn't owe me anything, and it was my indecision and fearfulness about moving and starting a new life that cost me the opportunity and landed me in the position I'm in. I accept that. HOWEVER, if I do end up moving, I'm not entirely convinced she'll still want to be with this other guy (even thought I know nothing about him) over me because I've put in the work to be the best person I can be, and I'm betting he hasn't. In the event that it's a "competition," my chances aren't so abysmal. She can choose who she wants, I won't force her hand, but I'll make it painfully obvious to her that she's making the wrong choice by being with someone else until she comes on board. But if this happens it'll be through things and methods that people find universally attractive, not just this specific woman. The methodology is not to "steal" someone, it's to compete so much harder and be so much better than the competition that you don't even have to steal, she'll make the decision on her own because you're that much more appealing to her. Survival of the fittest.

It depends on the person, doesn't it? Having enough "success" might bore some people. Not having any might anger, spur, and invigorate others. It all depends on how each individual reacts.

Here are my responses but I'm sure you don't want to hear them:
1). Be more attractive (interesting, intriguing, funny, successful, etc, each person will have their own particular desires but you cover a lot ton of bases if you just try to generally be a better, more optimized human being)
2). Search harder to find someone without a boyfriend, or be better so much better than the boyfriend that she wants to leave him for you

It could mean any or all the above, it could mean anything else. It means whatever she wants it to mean. It's subjective.

I'm sure some probably can under specific circumstances. There might be some women out there who will fall for your "overly nice at the expense of his own sexual dignity" niche, but my bet it will only be because she's in a similarly marginalized position and can't get any other man for that reason. It's possible, but don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen, especially considering you've said you have high standards and even if you did meet this woman, you probably wouldn't like her.

I never ask people out without knowing the answer, doing so otherwise is a fool's game. If I'm using OLD, I only go out with women who message, "like," match, "wink" at me, etc. There is 100% success rate on that method. If I meet someone in person and I have a good feeling about it, I take a series of elevated risks until I'm confident I know they want to go out with me, then it's easy. If I meet someone and get talking and they don't seem responsive, or if they tap out at some point when I'm taking my series of elevated risks, then I don't proceed. The macro lesson is

1). continually try and be great person
2). if you can do that successfully, women will want to be with you
3). pick the ones you want from that pool and cut your losses quickly with the others

I didn't say "talk utter rubbish." The lesson isn't "lie to people," it's "be better and adaptable even if it's uncomfortable for you."

Something else that jumped out at me here, "respect the market", see, I have no issue with that but with most things I do I like to beat the odds somehow so if someone tells me Y I will want to tell them its actually A. In some respects I guess this is an issue because I see things like this.

Its a ladder, each person you meet ticks different boxes and raises the bar, if you are used to a certain standard or like then its difficult move down the ladder again? Do you agree on this one?

A friend of mine told me this "the best part of dating is the chase, nobody I have ever dated was single when I met them". That changes things and sure one needs to bring different things to the table to tempt people away but realistically how possible is this IF you simple just conform to a generic set of deemed attractive qualities?

Agree 100% on being more appealing but again do you think being different can ever be appealing, I have made a list of what I am going to work on, very universal but I am keeping who I am while doing it and truthfully I am always going to be that lead not follow type of person.

I have reconciled the fact I like very few people, its ok, I have perhaps reconciled a lack of success and I'll try do some of the things you suggest, the biggest one I guess is to be more extrovert, as difficult as this is going to be. I am going to do that by simply talking to people and seeing where that takes me.

As with all things with me the motivation is the seemingly impossible ideal.

March 18, 2017

Something else that jumped out at me here, "respect the market", see, I have no issue with that but with most things I do I like to beat the odds somehow so if someone tells me Y I will want to tell them its actually A. In some respects I guess this is an issue because I see things like this.

Well that's your problem. Saying, "no, it's actually like this" when that statement is contrary to all evidence available is more than an issue, it's the entire reason you're in the position you're in. You don't respect the market. The market tells you women don't like nice men, you still expect them to like nice men. It's telling you that you won't meet women doing things you like on your own terms, you still expect to meet women doing things you like on your own terms. It's telling you you might have to go to bar and be uncomfortable, you still think you can have success without doing that. You've disrespected the market (aka "reality") and created an alternative universe where you live in and still believe you don't have to do anything you don't want to do. For some reason, a smart guy like you has just never put two and two together that what you're doing isn't working and that you need to wake up and try something else.

Its a ladder, each person you meet ticks different boxes and raises the bar, if you are used to a certain standard or like then its difficult move down the ladder again? Do you agree on this one?

Everyone's different, but I basically agree. Once I'm with someone who ticks a lot of boxes, it's really hard for me to be interested in someone who doesn't.

A friend of mine told me this "the best part of dating is the chase, nobody I have ever dated was single when I met them". That changes things and sure one needs to bring different things to the table to tempt people away but realistically how possible is this IF you simple just conform to a generic set of deemed attractive qualities?

Maybe the girl's boyfriend wasn't all that the girl wanted and your friend was. I wouldn't bet on it happening all the time, but it does happen. I don't think it's particularly viable for everyone, best you just focus on single people. Also don't paint with broad strokes when thinking about "conforming to a generic set of deemed attractive qualities." While there are certain things that are universally appealing (success, confidence, strength), that's not to say that there aren't individual nuances and differences within those groupings. You'll hear women say "I don't like musicians, I like athletes." That doesn't mean she likes all athletes, she might then say "I like football players as opposed to golfers," and she still then might say "I don't like Messi, I like Rinaldo." You'll see women on this forum say "No, I don't like Brad Pitt, I like Jude Law" or whatever. It's more nuanced than you give it credit for.

Agree 100% on being more appealing but again do you think being different can ever be appealing, I have made a list of what I am going to work on, very universal but I am keeping who I am while doing it and truthfully I am always going to be that lead not follow type of person.

Being different is ok (sometimes even advantageous) depending on the audience, assuming you have other universally good qualities (success, confidence, etc). I'm different, I'm a contrarian, individual, free thinker, the same sort. I don't indulge in things that don't provide much value or aren't worth my time. As long as you're different for the right reasons, it will eventually pay dividends when following the crowd doesn't work out for, well... the crowd.

For example, my best friend is very much a social "people" person. He goes out many nights a week and invests his time building relationships with a lot of people. He will basically do a lot of things just so people will like him (he's got underlying issues about it which have been addressed and are being dealt with). I, on the other hand, am much more efficient with how I use my time. I go out with certain people when the opportunity is advantageous and I invest the rest of my time in my business, or at the gym, or becoming better somehow. I'm very honest with everyone and I don't care if people don't like me for it.

But since my friend has spent all his time and money living in the moment, his house of cards is starting to fall, and it's going to be embarrassing and emasculating for him when he wants to buy a home or take a bigger step in life, because he hasn't invested his time wisely enough to be prepared for it. I'll have no problem, because I invested my time wisely, worked and prepared for it while people laughed at me for not having as much fun, or being different for making difficult decisions while others avoided them.

As with all things with me the motivation is the seemingly impossible ideal.

If you don't want it that bad, don't do it. That's fine -- but if you don't want it, I just wish you'd stop complaining about it because that bitterness makes you look worse. Either you want it bad enough that you're willing to do what it takes, or you don't and you should just accept that, live on your own terms, but stop complaining that your terms rarely, if ever, coincide with someone else's enough to make a connection. Either respect the market and do what you need, or respect the market, resign, do what you like, and stop complaining. Either way, you need to face the reality that the market is always right and you've been pretending this whole time that it isn't.

March 18, 2017

It is bizarre to me that this thread has gotten so long. Both from the number of posts and the LENGTH of said posts. It's like a few of you here are writing War And Peace

FWIW I really don't think clubs are a good place for ZA (most guys actually) to go to hang out. I thought the original topic was whether ZA should say yes to promising social invitations that are a bit outside his comfort zone, such as his warm-hearted model friends asking him to join him on a night out. And yes indeed, he absolutely should, even if that night out is at a club.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Imajerk17

March 19, 2017

The market tells you women don't like nice men, you still expect them to like nice men.

Okay, I this is where the message is getting lost. Normal person's point (I think, and hope) isn't "women like mean men". He seems to be saying that women don't like men who's defining feature is that they're nice. Women, the closer I get to understanding them (please say I'm right, otherwise I'm taking a step back as well) is women want a man who's comfortable in his own skin and fun. He is probably also nice, but he defines himself with other qualities.

March 19, 2017

Okay, I this is where the message is getting lost. Normal person's point (I think, and hope) isn't "women like mean men". He seems to be saying that women don't like men who's defining feature is that they're nice. Women, the closer I get to understanding them (please say I'm right, otherwise I'm taking a step back as well) is women want a man who's comfortable in his own skin and fun. He is probably also nice, but he defines himself with other qualities.

Perhaps true and valid.

I have decided to try and follow the advice given here, notably be slightly more authoritarian and last night I did go out, unfortunately the sort of person out last night was extremely drunk due to a carnival which had been going on all day. Didn't really get anywhere but did have a really nice breakfast and morning with K this morning.

The funny thing is I can appeal on a superficial level but I kinda need to see that the person is worth impressing before I bring them into that.

I am going to try find upsides not downsides.

March 19, 2017

Okay, I this is where the message is getting lost. Normal person's point (I think, and hope) isn't "women like mean men". He seems to be saying that women don't like men who's defining feature is that they're nice. Women, the closer I get to understanding them (please say I'm right, otherwise I'm taking a step back as well) is women want a man who's comfortable in his own skin and fun. He is probably also nice, but he defines himself with other qualities.

Basically, yes. You articulated it better and more succinctly than I did.

The point is that, in my opinion, being nice or not is basically irrelevant a lot of the time. If you have the other qualities they're looking for, lots of women won't care so much about how nice you are (barring the extremes). If you're confident, successful, interesting, etc, it will get a lot of womens' attention and hold it regardless of where you are on the "nice" spectrum (again, barring the extremes). What I think ZA's problem is that he's always trying to market himself as "the nice guy" or try and be so incredibly nice and selfless in hopes that some day a woman will just wake up and realize what a great person he is and want to be with him. I just don't see it ever happening, that's not how it works.

Being nice to a certain degree is fine (maybe even beneficial sometimes) if you meet the other prerequisites, and your niceness doesn't come at the expense of something else. In my opinion, the reason you hear so much of "nice guys finish last" or women eschewing nice guys in favor of "bad boys" is because we choose partners with our irrational lizard brains which are more attuned to our basic instincts, survival and reproduction. Women want men that are going to protect and provide for them, and when they see a man who's so nice that he will please others at his own expense, it makes a woman's ovaries scream "stay far away from that very nice guy because he can't even provide for himself, let alone you and your kids."

If you want women, being nice has it's place and time, but it's not everywhere and all the time. At the end of the day you'll appeal to them much more if you can demonstrate that you're capable of fighting and competing in order to take care of yourself first, not happy to lie down and be content just to talk to a woman once in a while, as ZA has said he is. Being nice is fine if you meet the first criteria. If you don't, it's a horrible, horrible, look.

Call me crazy, but in matters like this it always helps for me to think of humans as animals. We still pick our partners almost primally whether or not we realize it, we just have all these advanced human rational thoughts that are incongruous to our irrational desires. Think about it, two males in the wild would fight to the death for the right to prove to a female which is the strongest and most fit in a bid to mate with her. Nowhere would a female mate with a male who was too scared to even fight and was content to just bring the others food while he starved. Much like ZA who doesn't want to do anything uncomfortable in order to get what he needs and is content just to talk to that women with the boyfriend.

I'm not a zoologist, evolutionary biologist, or anything of the sort, so someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but based on my limited knowledge and human observation, this makes perfect sense to me.

March 20, 2017

Basically, yes. You articulated it better and more succinctly than I did.

The point is that, in my opinion, being nice or not is basically irrelevant a lot of the time. If you have the other qualities they're looking for, lots of women won't care so much about how nice you are (barring the extremes). If you're confident, successful, interesting, etc, it will get a lot of womens' attention and hold it regardless of where you are on the "nice" spectrum (again, barring the extremes). What I think ZA's problem is that he's always trying to market himself as "the nice guy" or try and be so incredibly nice and selfless in hopes that some day a woman will just wake up and realize what a great person he is and want to be with him. I just don't see it ever happening, that's not how it works.

Being nice to a certain degree is fine (maybe even beneficial sometimes) if you meet the other prerequisites, and your niceness doesn't come at the expense of something else. In my opinion, the reason you hear so much of "nice guys finish last" or women eschewing nice guys in favor of "bad boys" is because we choose partners with our irrational lizard brains which are more attuned to our basic instincts, survival and reproduction. Women want men that are going to protect and provide for them, and when they see a man who's so nice that he will please others at his own expense, it makes a woman's ovaries scream "stay far away from that very nice guy because he can't even provide for himself, let alone you and your kids."

If you want women, being nice has it's place and time, but it's not everywhere and all the time. At the end of the day you'll appeal to them much more if you can demonstrate that you're capable of fighting and competing in order to take care of yourself first, not happy to lie down and be content just to talk to a woman once in a while, as ZA has said he is. Being nice is fine if you meet the first criteria. If you don't, it's a horrible, horrible, look.

Call me crazy, but in matters like this it always helps for me to think of humans as animals. We still pick our partners almost primally whether or not we realize it, we just have all these advanced human rational thoughts that are incongruous to our irrational desires. Think about it, two males in the wild would fight to the death for the right to prove to a female which is the strongest and most fit in a bid to mate with her. Nowhere would a female mate with a male who was too scared to even fight and was content to just bring the others food while he starved. Much like ZA who doesn't want to do anything uncomfortable in order to get what he needs and is content just to talk to that women with the boyfriend.

I'm not a zoologist, evolutionary biologist, or anything of the sort, so someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but based on my limited knowledge and human observation, this makes perfect sense to me.

Met up with someone and on a universal looks scale she is 10. I then decided to deploy some of the advice here, bearing in mind the whole set up was fairly false from the offset it did at least give me time to see how things worked or didn't.

Ok, she didn't laugh but she did smile. BUT as pretty as she was I just didn't really feel anything, I sucked up the conversation about trivial things and even managed to keep it going, the conversation was light and devoid of politics and current affairs.

She is a student and sure, I'd feel good going out with her and she is very sweet.

Just asking myself really if it is worth it.

Tried a fair bit of Normal Person's advice and I can see the bits I tried to work to lesser or greater degrees. I tried some of it with K yesterday and it worked to an extent.

March 29, 2017

Ok, the student wasn't for me and neither was seeking arrangement as a concept. Tried it but for what I am looking for it wont really work BUT I am glad I know it is there should I ever want to go back to paying for a date again.

I'll give it that, its very simple and a lot of the hurdles of dating are removed.

I did contemplate having another go with people I liked in the past, using what I know now but that doesn't seem like a very smart idea to me. It sounds shameful but most of these people themselves never had much luck but I wasn't good enough either.

Re read a lot of the advice here to try and take some more of it in while sitting at a café and if there was unusual advantage, I don't really seem too worried anymore, reading this, reading how, what, why and what people want has perhaps opened my eyes to how I like to live, the things I enjoy and crucially the things I need in life.

A GF doesn't really fall into the need, despite everyone pressuring, telling me I need one. Friend of mine is back on the dating scene having a great time meeting lots of different ladies and I went along, met some people which I found wholly and completely unappealing in their entirety. Yes they were ALL good looking but there was no connection with me hence the lack of appeal. It was the very reason I didn't act on the topic of this thread. The difference was I didn't go home and mope, sure I felt lonely but unlike in the past I didn't feel like a lesser person than them, I simply embraced being different and being me.

I will say this a LOT of Normal Person says here is very TRUE, saw quite a lot of it, it would take years for any of that to come naturally to me, its just not the way I think, my thinking is very much 'be me the good guy" rather than "exploit the situation for personal gain".

I agree, I could change that thinking but I just sat there, tried to put some of this in practice and at times it just became a stammering mess as I tried to really overplay my hand when all they actually wanted to do was get to know my friend better. Again I didn't feel bad about it, its competition and I couldn't compete with him.

Dare I say it but to make something like this work you need to possess something the audience actually wants which I didn't have and seemingly never really have. Undoubtedly I have been wrong for many a year at how I have approached this but again I am not really that sad about it. Could have I have made some successes out of the past, perhaps but I cant live in the past, barring taking the positives from it.

I do believe dating needs to be taught, really I do, had I been exposed to much of this earlier in my formative late teen years I think my position now would be vastly different than it is but again you cant cry over spilt milk. I'll keep trying but I am not going to hope for one big miracle.

The bottom line is I guess you need to model yourself into what dating demands and not what you want to actually be. Which explains why for many years I have decried the "sheep effect", I concede now its practically the only way to find some success in dating.

This me saying I was wrong.

March 29, 2017

Bravo for at least accepting some of the realities and not complaining about them.

The bottom line is I guess you need to model yourself into what dating demands and not what you want to actually be. Which explains why for many years I have decried the "sheep effect", I concede now its practically the only way to find some success in dating.

This me saying I was wrong.

Here's something to consider. While everyone needs to tweak and change things about themselves in order to be more desirable (the clothes we wear, haircuts, fitness, the career paths we choose, etc), at the end of the day, those things are all conducive to pairing up and reproducing, which is what everyone wants. It's for the betterment of us all and advancement of the species. I think referring to people who want to refine, improve status, achieve things, etc (for whatever reason) as "sheep" is a misnomer, and I think it it's coming from a place where your reluctance to try and do all these things outweighs your desire for the prize. Most people don't view the whole process with such reluctance, because at the end of the day, they have a biological urge to reproduce and all the whole process of becoming the most appealing person possible, while not necessarily easy at times, is what needs to be done to eventually satisfy the urge.

Most people just see it is a necessary hurdle that they too have to climb. You see it as an act of fakery. The thing is, at the end of the day, the appeal of success, beauty, health, strength, wealth, etc will never be subverted. There's a primal, irrational, reason why people are biologically drawn to those things in a partner, so that's why I think calling people who want to acquire these things "sheep" isn't quite accurate. Rather than calling them sheep, I'd say they're really trying hard to satisfy their biological urges and reproduce.

Let's say you had some bread and you were sitting at a lake with some ducks in it. One of the ducks looks at you and quacks, you think that's funny and you throw that duck a piece of bread. Then the other ducks take notice, realize that they too can get some bread if they quack, and they start doing it too. Would you call the other ducks "sheep?" Hopefully not -- they're just trying to satisfy their hunger, a biological urge. Can you really blame them for doing what they need to do to satisfy it? Now apply the same logic to people who do some stuff you see as laughable in order to meet a partner. Suddenly, it doesn't seem so laughable. That person just really wants to satisfy an urge and is trying the best way they know how.

I think your gripe is more with biology, nature, and the circumstances of life on Earth, not so much with people. For some people, the desire is great. It seems your other desires (self preservation, etc) are greater than your desire to partake in the whole process -- which is totally fine. You're either willing to do it or you're not. Both are acceptable, however I think the problem that got discussed ad nauseam in this thread was that you wanted the prize but weren't willing to go through the process adequately, and then wanted to complain about it. So I'm glad that you finally accepted it, one way or the other. Best of luck.

March 29, 2017

Bravo for at least accepting some of the realities and not complaining about them.

Here's something to consider. While everyone needs to tweak and change things about themselves in order to be more desirable (the clothes we wear, haircuts, fitness, the career paths we choose, etc), at the end of the day, those things are all conducive to pairing up and reproducing, which is what everyone wants. It's for the betterment of us all and advancement of the species. I think referring to people who want to refine, improve status, achieve things, etc (for whatever reason) as "sheep" is a misnomer, and I think it it's coming from a place where your reluctance to try and do all these things outweighs your desire for the prize. Most people don't view the whole process with such reluctance, because at the end of the day, they have a biological urge to reproduce and all the whole process of becoming the most appealing person possible, while not necessarily easy at times, is what needs to be done to eventually satisfy the urge.

Most people just see it is a necessary hurdle that they too have to climb. You see it as an act of fakery. The thing is, at the end of the day, the appeal of success, beauty, health, strength, wealth, etc will never be subverted. There's a primal, irrational, reason why people are biologically drawn to those things in a partner, so that's why I think calling people who want to acquire these things "sheep" isn't quite accurate. Rather than calling them sheep, I'd say they're really trying hard to satisfy their biological urges and reproduce.

Let's say you had some bread and you were sitting at a lake with some ducks in it. One of the ducks looks at you and quacks, you think that's funny and you throw that duck a piece of bread. Then the other ducks take notice, realize that they too can get some bread if they quack, and they start doing it too. Would you call the other ducks "sheep?" Hopefully not -- they're just trying to satisfy their hunger, a biological urge. Can you really blame them for doing what they need to do to satisfy it? Now apply the same logic to people who do some stuff you see as laughable in order to meet a partner. Suddenly, it doesn't seem so laughable. That person just really wants to satisfy an urge and is trying the best way they know how.

I think your gripe is more with biology, nature, and the circumstances of life on Earth, not so much with people. For some people, the desire is great. It seems your other desires (self preservation, etc) are greater than your desire to partake in the whole process -- which is totally fine. You're either willing to do it or you're not. Both are acceptable, however I think the problem that got discussed ad nauseam in this thread was that you wanted the prize but weren't willing to go through the process adequately, and then wanted to complain about it. So I'm glad that you finally accepted it, one way or the other. Best of luck.

Sure I would agree with the ducks analogy. Perhaps some people are just easier to pair up than others, I guess that is the reality of it. You can tailor yourself to what you think people like and still not be liked.

You are actually mostly right, after this seeking arrangement date I just asked myself what all the fuss is about, I took her out to dinner, used it as an opportunity to put some of the advice to work for no other reason than well I wanted to try but truthfully unless the person is what I actually want my interest fades quickly like it did here, not helped by the fact I knew the whole thing was a sham from start to end.

Perhaps I just simply realised if I do want to get laid I can simply pay a lot of money and simply get that, I still hold the ideal of actually doing it with someone I really like but, its hard to explain I just think as you say I have accepted the realities of it, instead of fighting them I have accepted what is. My reluctance is mainly due to the inevitable lack of success, basically I tend to know the outcome before I have even started, which is difficult to get away from.

You are right be the most appealing possible. Its very hard to look around and realise no matter what you do, you cannot seem to align to what you actually want.

I do have an issue with the process but I cant change that, the goings on a few evenings ago when I saw this process made me realise how completely unsuited I am to it and yes you are right I misguidedly thought my good qualities would be enough to make me attractive. Which left me up a creek with no paddle.

Suffice to say I'll have a long time to lament all of this but at least I have some sort of peace, right until the next person asks me about dating of when I am going to get a girlfriend.

I want it as much as anyone else but the process is just borderline impossible for me and I think next time someone asks me I am going to say exactly that which will probably get me dubbed: negative.

Thanks for the advice, I'll keep reading through it.

April 10, 2017

The best way to stop being shy is to start playing sports and participate in different competitions. To make friends on interests and to perceive girls as sexual partners, but as a glass vase. Care and love.

April 10, 2017

The best way to stop being shy is to start playing sports and participate in different competitions. To make friends on interests and to perceive girls as sexual partners, but as a glass vase. Care and love.

Not really a competitive sporty guy. The sport I do is for fun and mostly to just be alone with myself and my thoughts.

Normal Person was probably more helpful in this thread than he perhaps realised, despite my bickering.

I think the thing is to learn things in life, I have been lucky enough to have a few conversations with this model before she heads back to Europe and we actually come from similar backgrounds and have similar values. Its very much friend zone which I guess some will see as not being seen as a sexual being. I have enjoyed these conversations.

The trick I missed in the past was not take out the good of what were sometimes good situations which ended negatively. Yes, the calendar of events is set to start off and I know I am going to all of them on my own, there is some sadness there but also a lot of acceptance. Perhaps my experience and mistakes can be a lesson to others, you can try move against the system but ultimately you wont get anywhere.

I think life for me at least is much better since I let some of this go, sure I am still under pressure to actually date someone and I am teased about it often.

Was I silly to turn this down?

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