Considering separation after 3 yrs of marriage bcoz of wife's BPD

[Stormie32]

I have been married for 3 years now; it was an arranged marriage. I had never been in a serious relationship before this. We got engaged a month after first meeting, and then got to know each other more for 4 more months before finally tying the knot. The first time I ever met her, she said that she used to take medicine as she was disturbed a few years ago, but she was now fine. The only caveat I had was she was a little overweight, but I felt there was enough to work with to make her more attractive to me.

 

A year went by. The more I got to know about her and her background, the more impressed me & my family were with her. So we were all really happy inspite of her few shortcomings, but then something went wrong. She started displaying weird behaviours like uncontrollable crying, not sleeping at night, getting rude & aggressive; she wasn't like this at all. Her parents explained to us that she had BPD triggered due to a road accident a few years ago. We decided to keep her for a month at her parent's place as they would be able to take better care of her. She wasn't improving, so we consulted a more senior doctor who was able to treat her. She came back to normalcy and to my home 2 months later.

 

One and a half year went by. We were quite happy, but she wasn't able to make much progress on making her more attractive to myself, and I started feeling she wasn't much interested in reducing weight, having a healthy diet & maintaining hygiene - inspite of me helping her with these issues. I decided to be more strict and stop physical intimacy with her; God how I wanted it so bad. A couple of months ago, her BPD appeared again. Now from whatever i've read about this condition is: it can't be cured, marriage to such people isn't such a good idea, & having children is out of the question!

 

I don't feel we can have a future together. It's really disappointing and nobody's fault perhaps, but why should I suffer bcoz of this? I am quite desperate to take my life forward with a companion. That is why I am considering separation, but I feel I should get into a relationship first with a compatible woman & once it has progressed, then give the bad news to my wife & her family.

 

What do you guys think? Any help would be appreciated thx

[elaine567]

That is why I am considering separation, but I feel I should get into a relationship first with a compatible woman & once it has progressed, then give the bad news to my wife & her family.

 

 

What terrible idea...

[MJJean]

I think you should send her back to her parents and file for a divorce THEN seek out a compatible new partner.

[Chilli]

Agree with the others.

Your suppose to support your wife but if you don't want it then you have to mend all of that first and divorce.

[Stormie32]

Thanks very much for your opinions!

 

Well, I feel her parents could have described this condition in more detail. They said it hadn't cropped up till now...but we can't know for sure now can we? They said they had been trying to marry her off for a number of years but nobody was willing to marry her. Sometimes I get confused on what is real about her and what is not - stuff like: was the girl I first met the real one or not?

 

The reason why I thought of finding someone else first before splitting from her, was maybe perhaps I'm at a stage in my life where I feel that I really need a partner: maybe I'm a bit worried about being alone.

 

Anyways, I did a little research on this approach recommended by you guys, and there too it was mentioned that the current problems could be enhanced/increased if the other side find out I'm trying to look for someone, or if I'm in another relationship. However, it did also mention that it's a good idea to do group activities and be more social, to fill the gap previously held by your partner.

 

So I guess that's what I'll do then. As of this moment, she's at my place but her condition's getting a little worse. Also since this match was arranged by parents (my dad on our side), I guess they will take the final call ultimately. My dad feels we should wait a little more, though I haven't told him I want to separate; my mom's sentiments are with me.

[aileD]

I'm so you are married? You went thru with it and actually married her?

 

I mean you're kind of past the point of "oh she's messed up so I'm going to run".

 

She's your wife. Dont you care about her (arranged or not)?

 

Don't you have an obligation to try to help her get the care she needs to heal?

 

Or is she just a piece of meat or nothing to you? She's your wife.

[Stormie32]

@aileD - thanks for your opinion!

 

Well, me & my family have been helping & caring for her in the last 2 years since we came to know about this condition.

 

But it can't go on forever, can it? At some point a line will have to be drawn. I mean, it shouldn't be that I'm wasting my time and my life.

 

If she had told me from the beginning that she had BPD, and after doing research coming to know what to expect, I'm quite sure I would not have married her. I even had a split second thought of 'Should I reject her?' in our first meeting; maybe I should have been more inquisitive and asked her more about this condition, she felt normal to me.

 

So we are still trying to find a solution, but whatever I've read (plus doctors i've spoken to) so far states it can't be cured and no-one knows when it would crop up again....

[Just a Guy]

Hi Stormie, sorry to see you here. The point of view being expressed by aileD and others is very correct from their perspective. I guess it is a cultural difference and I can understand where you are coming from. In arranged marriages often the parents of a girl are never fully upfront with why she has not been successful in finding suitors. Also the reverse happens too. The boy's parents paint a completely different picture of the boy's attributes, his professional potential, salary/ income etc. When there is lack of transparency in something as important as a lifelong relationship like marriage, things can go south very fast. I am sure that your wife's parents covered up her problems with a very generous offer of dowry and that would have played a significant part in your decision to marry her. So as I said, according to Western perspectives respondents like aileD and others are correct. Also while I understand your perspective, I am of the opinion that with therapy and treatment, your wife will be able to regain near normality in her behaviour and attitude. As others have said, when you did commit to marry her you took responsibility for her and you have to shoulder it to the fullest extent.

 

Have you considered that your wife may be suffering from PTSD rather than BPD since she was in a car accident? There are other people on this forum who can give you more focussed advice on how to deal with PTSD and I am sure they would be happy to oblige if you ask them. Even if she has BPD I think it is too soon to throw in the towel. There is a respondent who goes by the moniker Understandind50 who is very knowledgeable about BPD and related personality disorders. If you read his post on other threads here and on the infidelity sub forum you will be able to garner a lot of useful information about these disorders and how to handle them. However, you cannot afford to bail just like that. Put yourself in your wife's position. If you suffered from something like this or an incurable disease and she bailed on you without giving you a chance to get cured or healed how would you like it? Think before you act. Warm wishes.

[feeling_low]

The only caveat I had was she was a little overweight, but I felt there was enough to work with to make her more attractive to me.

 

 

One and a half year went by. We were quite happy, but she wasn't able to make much progress on making her more attractive to myself, and I started feeling she wasn't much interested in reducing weight, having a healthy diet & maintaining hygiene - inspite of me helping her with these issues.. That is why I am considering separation, but I feel I should get into a relationship first with a compatible woman & once it has progressed, then give the bad news to my wife & her family.

 

What do you guys think? Any help would be appreciated thx

 

Dude. I am from India and you sound like you are from here too. So you mostly saw your wife as a piece of meat you can poke often, albeit a slightly fat piece of meat that you can manage to keep from getting too fat? Seriously. With that kind of attitude, please leave this girl alone. She may need a lot of medical help but what she certainly doesn't need is you looking and thinking that she should be ashamed that she isn't f**k worthy. Move on and do her a favor.

[feeling_low]

 

But it can't go on forever, can it? At some point a line will have to be drawn. I mean, it shouldn't be that I'm wasting my time and my life.

 

 

Why the f*** can't it go on forever. It is not like she caught aids from sex with thousands of men. She has a unfortunate mental condition. How would you feel if she you got a dreaded disease like cancer and she decides to move on because you can do nothing but **** and piss in a bed?

[Downtown]

Her parents explained to us that she had BPD triggered due to a road accident a few years ago.

Stormie, as JustAGuy stated (post #8), you seem to be describing PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) if your W's parents were being truthful about her mental issues being caused by a severe trauma (i.e., by the road accident). Yet, if that were true, the mental issues you see now likely would be panic attacks, flashbacks, or severe reactions to trigger events -- such as riding in a car, walking across the street, or hearing car horns. Significantly, you are not describing any such trigger events.

 

Instead, you seem to be describing strong mood changes -- not panic attacks. I therefore note that the two most common causes of mood changes are hormone change and drug abuse. Given that your W is not pregnant, not a drug abuser, and has been diagnosed as "BPD," it seems that her doctors have ruled out hormones and drug abuse as a source of her mood changes.

 

I therefore note that the two remaining common causes of strong mood changes are BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) and BP (Bipolar Disorder). The behaviors you describe -- "weird behaviours like uncontrollable crying, not sleeping at night, getting rude & aggressive" -- are much closer to the warning signs for BP than those for BPD. I therefore suspect that her doctor there in India was referring to Bipolar Disorder when he told the family she has "BPD." In many countries, doctors use "BPD" to refer to Bipolar instead of Borderline PD. There are several reasons why you seem to be describing red flags for Bipolar, not BPD.

 

One reason is that, whereas BPD behavior typically starts in the early teens, Bipolar mood swings typically are first seen at age 25 (with the usual range being age 18 to 30). Hence, it is understandable that a disorder first observed in your W's mid-twenties could be mistakenly attributed to a car accident occurring near that time.

 

Bipolar is not believed to be caused by traumas such as car accidents but, rather, by a gradual change in body chemistry. A very stressful event nonetheless might cause a Bipolar mood swing to appear earlier in a person's life rather than starting later in life. Hence, when her doctor said that her disorder was "triggered by a car accident," I suspect he was saying that her Bipolar Disorder started earlier in life due to the great stress she was under at that time. But, of course, I don't know what he meant. I am only speculating here.

A second reason is that, because Bipolar is caused by gradual changes in body chemistry, the mood swing typically takes two weeks to develop. Then it usually lasts for a few weeks and takes several more weeks to disappear. Moreover, Bipolar mood changes typically occur only once or twice a year. This seems consistent with your description of your W becoming ill about once every 12 or 18 months.

 

A third reason for suspecting Bipolar instead of BPD is that BPD mood changes typically occur in less than a minute in response to some specific thing you say or do. Moreover, the BPD mood change typically lasts several hours but, on rare occasion, can last for two or three days. In contrast, you are describing a mood change that lasted three months when your W was sick nearly two years ago.

 

Other reasons. There are some other reasons why your description of her "weird behaviours" seems much closer to the warning signs for Bipolar than those for BPD. If you're interested, I describe them in my post at 12 BPD/Bipolar Differences. This distinction between the two disorders is very important because, whereas Bipolar sometimes can be managed very successfully by simply swallowing a pill, BPD typically takes years of intensive therapy -- and BPDers rarely are willing to remain in therapy long enough to make a real difference.

 

What do you guys think?

I think that, before walking away from your W, you should see a psychologist or psychiatrist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid second-opinion on what it is you're dealing with. Find out whether the psych believes you are describing Bipolar Disorder, Borderline PD, PTSD, or some other disorder.

 

Granted, without your W being there, the psych cannot render a formal diagnosis. But he can give you his opinion and may speak more candidly to you without her being present. If he has not seen or treated her, he will be ethically bound to protect only your best interests, not hers, because you are his patient.

 

I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych to consult with, you take a quick look at the link I provided to see if the Bipolar or Borderline warning signs sound very familiar. They are based largely on my experiences with my Bipolar-1 foster son and my BPDer exW.

 

Learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Although you can spot strong warning signs whenever they occur, only a professional can determine whether those symptoms are so severe as to constitute a full-blown disorder. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for Bipolar may help you avoid a painful situation -- and help you decide whether it is prudent to seek another professional opinion before walking away from your W. Take care, Stormie.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Downtown

[Just a Guy]

Hi Downtown, I'm sorry I got you mixed up with Understanding 50. Age is catching up with me. In any case I think Stormie would benefit from your knowledge of BPD and other related disorders. He may be confused about such disorders.

 

Stormie, I wish you the very best but remember that you have to shoulder your responsibilities. I think your father is correct in advising you to give it some time. Warm wishes.

[aileD]

I was co fused by the BPD thing to.

 

I was thinking maybe she has a traumatic brain injury ?

[Stormie32]

Thanks all for your opinions!...

 

...but in particular to JustAGuy & Downtown, wow - I have no words to express how informative & thoughtful your posts have been. I have read & re-read each statement multiple times - as you can imagine this is a very important crossroad in anyone's life and they need to take the right decision!

 

Will give more details now & answer a couple of queries:

 

@ JustAGuy

- We in fact agreed to share half of the marriage expenses, whereas our custom decrees it to be 30% from our side.

- I see where you are coming from w.r.t. PTSD, but everyone (her parents & doctors) have told me she has BPD.

- Else thanks very much for your solutions and understandings.

 

@ Downtown

- Yes we have observed mood & personality changes, and not PTSD symptoms.

- As I did not know her at the time of the car accident & prior to that, then have to take her parents' statements into account.

- Her parents have stated that the 2 instances of mood swing/BPD episodes we have all seen, are the first time they have seen it since just after the accident.

- Have gone through your 12-point list in detail, out of which i deduced that BPD = 6, Bipolar = 3, Not Sure = 3

- Thanks for your solutions & understandings too; will carry out your other solution asap.

 

 

I have noted down the strange behaviours across both these episodes in more detail below for your understanding as well:

 

• Continuous crying or on the verge of crying throughout the night and the day as well.
  
• Closing all curtains and lights in the bedroom, stating that someone outside is watching her.
  
• During sleeping time, uncontrollable movement of legs - holding them in the air or doing a crunches-like motion.
  
• Excessive aggression and rude behaviour towards everyone.
  
• Not taking her medicine, and not allowing anyone to view her while taking medicine.
  
• Asked her parents in front of me who her real father was.
  
• Not shaking hands properly while greeting a familiar loved one.
  
• Not sleeping much or at all; continuously looking at her mobile phone.
  
• Stating that someone has hacked into her Google email or LinkedIn account.
  
• Apparently mistakenly cut herself using a razor and spent a lot of time applying bandages & disinfectant.
  
• Using only one hand for all daily activities.
  
• Always sitting in the same position (one leg on top of another kept sideways) & subsequently getting cramps, or unable to get up and walk properly.
  
• Unreasonable/impractical/impatient behaviour without emotion.
  
• Not looking towards me while talking; showing an indifferent & emotionless state while interacting.
  
• A sad look continuously throughout the day.
  
• During sleeping time, uncontrollable movement of legs - clocking of knees together.
  
• During sleeping time, uncontrollable movement of body - extremely fast writhing motion lying face down.
  
• Talking silently or making gestures to herself.
  
• Feeling as if any statement made is directly negatively towards her, and hence defending herself.
  
• At any time, always inserting a statement in her conversations that her job is running very well.
  
• Apparently lost her phone in public and filed an FIR to find it.
  
• Said she cut herself while opening a door and spent a number of hours applying disinfectant while keeping the room locked.
  
• Spending a lot of time cleaning objects in the room, while keeping the room locked.
  
• Spent at least 30m one morning displaying strange behaviour while applying a wet handkerchief on her knee, stating she had knee pain.
  

 

Thanks very much again - much appreciated....hopefully now you will get a better picture of the problem and how best to solve it

[Downtown]

Hopefully now you will get a better picture of the problem and how best to solve it.

Stormie, thanks for the detailed list of strange behaviors observed. I am greatly surprised by your finding that, of the 12 BPD/Bipolar Differences, 6 of them are warning signs for BPD and only 3 point to Bipolar. As I explained in my first post, I was thinking that the reverse would be true -- based on your earlier description of her behaviors. Because I am now surprised and confused, I am asking you for some additional information before I comment on the detailed list you just provided. Below I ask several questions in response to some of your statements. I realize, of course, that you likely will be unable to answer all of my questions.

 

Have gone through your 12-point list in detail, out of which i deduced that BPD = 6, Bipolar = 3.

Which 6 traits point to BPD and which 3 traits point to Bipolar?

 

Everyone (her parents & doctors) have told me she has BPD.

Yes, but do they say "Borderline" or "Bipolar"? I ask because a large share of the world's doctors use "BPD" to refer to "Bipolar" and an even larger share use it to refer to "Borderline." Big difference between the two!

 

It therefore would be very helpful if you would find out which of the two disorders they are referring to. It also would be helpful if you would take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs and, if most sound very familiar, tell us which signs (e.g., 3, 8, and 15) are strong. If your W's doctors are actually diagnosing her as "Borderline," you likely will immediately recognize the vast majority of those signs.

 

I did not know her at the time of the car accident.

AileD makes a very important observation (post #13). She notes that your W's BPD (i.e., Borderline) behaviors could have been caused by the car accident if she struck her head badly, causing a brain injury. Strong BPD behavior can arise from multiple causes -- one of which is a severe brain injury.

 

The vast majority of BPD behaviors seen in adults are temporary flareups (of the BPD traits we all have) caused by hormone changes or drug abuse. During your early teens, for example, there is a good chance you exhibited strong BPD traits for a couple of years until the hormone surge started to wane. These temporary flareups are NOT caused by the lifetime disorder referred to as "BPD."

 

Yet, with regard to strong persistent BPD behaviors, nearly all of them are believed to be caused by a combination of inherited genes and damaging childhood environment (e.g., parental abuse or abandonment). The childhood trauma is believed to occur before age five. A very small portion of these persistent BPDers, however, start exhibiting this strong BPD behavior only after they suffer a trauma to the brain. This is the possibility that AileD expresses concern about.

 

Excessive aggression and rude behaviour towards everyone.

The vast majority of full-blown BPDers -- studies suggest roughly 2/3 of them -- are "high functioning," which means they typically get along fine with casual friends, clients, business associates, and total strangers. The reason is that none of those people is able to trigger a BPDers fear of abandonment or engulfment.

 

There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment. HF BPDers therefore tend to be friendly to casual friends and strangers -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love them, i.e., their close family members and very close friends.

 

I mention this because, if your W is abusive "towards everyone" as you say, you are describing warning signs for low-functioning BPD or another disorder. If your W really were low-functioning, you almost certainly would never have married her. And you would not be having pleasant periods in which her behavior is tolerable for a year at a time. Hence, if by "towards everyone," you literally mean to include strangers and casual friends, you likely are describing warning signs for a disorder other than BPD.

 

Importantly, if your W really does exhibit high-functioning BPD, she likely exhibits several other disorders as well. A recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that 72% of female BPDers also have one or two other personality disorders as well (e.g., Paranoid PD or Narcissistic PD). In addition, 81% of those female BPDers have an anxiety disorder (e.g., Social Phobia or Specific Phobia) and 80% have a mood disorder (e.g., Bipolar Disorder or Major Depressive Disorder). See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

Hence, BPDers typically have at least one other PD together with two or more "clinical disorders," i.e., the anxiety and mood disorders. This means that, if your W has full-blown BPD, she may have full-blown Bipolar too. Indeed, the study cited above found that 41% of female BPDers also suffer from Bipolar-1 or Bipolar-2.

 

Will carry out your other solution asap.

My "other solution" is to seek a second opinion from a psychologist or psychiatrist who have never seen or treated your W. I don't know what the practice is there in India but, here in the States, psychologists and other therapists generally are loath to tell someone with high-functioning BPD the name of his/her diagnosed disorder. There are several reasons why this information is routinely withheld from high functioning BPDers here in the States.

 

One is that a HF BPDer almost certainly will immediately quit therapy on hearing this diagnosis. A second is that the insurance company likely will decline to cover BPD treatments. And a third reason is that, by providing the patient with a new identity of being "The BPDer," this information may worsen her behavior -- e.g., she may start exhibiting 8 or 9 BPD traits instead of 5 or 6. (Those reasons don't apply to low functioning BPDers, however, because they are in such great pain that they may be greatly relieved to know the cause of their suffering.)

[Stormie32]

Hi Downtown...thanks for your detailed analysis again.

 

The answers to the queries posted by you are as follows:

 

1. Which 6 traits point to BPD and which 3 traits point to Bipolar?

- Diff #02: Bipolar, since the frequency of mood swings is slow

- Diff #03: Bipolar, since the mood swings are lasting into weeks/months

- Diff #04: Bipolar, since the speed at which the mood swing is developing is into weeks

- Diff #07: BPD, as the outbursts are filled w/ anger carried since childhood - especially relevant in her 1st episode 2 yrs ago where it was directed towards parents.

- Diff #08: BPD, as I have observed that arguments start after having a good time

- Diff #09: BPD, as she does not intellectually challenge her intense feelings

- Diff #10: BPD, as she is unable to trust for extended periods

- Diff #11: BPD, as she always feels she is the victim

- Diff #12: BPD, as she is very immature & childlike

 

2. Yes, but do they say "Borderline" or "Bipolar"?

As stated by her mother in the 1st episode, and this was the first time I came to know about this, it has been mentioned 'Borderline Disorder'.

 

3. 18 BPD Warning Signs

Out of 18, 10 behaviours she has displayed so far: (01,02,03,04,06,07,08,10,13,18)

 

4. Is your W is abusive "towards everyone" as you say?

- Observed towards me

- Observed towards my mother & father

- Observed towards her mother & father

- Observed towards her aunts

- Observed towards our maids

- Not responding to calls/messages from cousins, friends & colleagues: getting angry when they try to contact her.

- Suspect her clients as well in her profession. She used to work in a team environment in establishments before the accident. Since the accident she does consultancy. I feel she might have shown these behaviours at the workplace and been perhaps subsequently sacked, and her parents decided that it would be better for her to do consultancy instead & hence supported her.

 

Thanks again - appreciate your help very much!

Edited March 16, 2017 by Stormie32

[Downtown]

18 BPD Warning Signs: 10 behaviours she has displayed so far: 01,02,03,04,06,07,08,10,13,18.

Stormie, if she exhibits 10 of those traits strongly and persistently, you are describing a strong pattern of BPD -- as her doctor had diagnosed. I suspect you've overlooked a few traits so I will discuss the ones you don't recognize as occurring.

 

• #5 Flipping between adoration and devaluation -- You don't list this trait but do list trait #1, which is the same thing as #5: black-white thinking. These two traits are two different ways of saying the very same thing. Specifically, #1 is "Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor comment or infraction." Another trait you say she has strongly is "Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never." That is trait #2 which -- like #1 -- arises from black-white thinking. Hence, if she she has both traits #1 and #2, she very likely also exhibits #5.
  
• #9 Fear of abandonment -- You don't list this trait but, if she is a BPDer, she has to exhibit it because it is a core feature of BPD. This fear typically manifests itself as "irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members," which is trait #3. Because you say #3 is strong, it seems you are seeing a strong fear of abandonment without realizing that it is the cause of her jealousy and controlling actions. Warning signs #3 and #9 are two different examples of the very same trait: fear of abandonment.
  
• #11 Lack of impulse control -- You don't list this trait but do list #6, which is "Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later." Significantly, a woman who frequently throws hissy fits and temper tantrums over very minor issues generally does so because, like a young child, she lacks the ability to control her own emotions. She thus lacks impulse control. Hence, if she exhibits one of these traits she almost certainly exhibits the other as well.
  
• #16 Having no close long-term friends -- I suggest you reconsider this one as well. A woman who does frequent black-white thinking almost certainly will start splitting her close friends black at some point -- pushing them away. My BPDer exW, for example, typically took about 5 years before she got so close to her best friends that she would start splitting them black. Moreover, you state that she is abusive toward everyone in the family and gets angry at her "cousins, friends & colleagues" whenever they try to contact her. It therefore is hard to imagine how this woman has any long-term close friends (unless they live a long distance away). It sounds like she eventually pushes everyone away.
  

Bipolar, since the frequency of mood swings are slow.... are lasting into weeks/months.... and the speed at which the mood swing is developing is into weeks.

As I noted yesterday, Stormie, 41% of female BPDers also suffer from Bipolar-1 or Bipolar-2. So the combination of BPD traits (6) and bipolar traits (3) you report is not surprising for a woman who has been diagnosed as having full-blown BPD. What is surprising, however, is that you say nothing sounds familiar in the very first difference on my list:

Difference #1

-- "A bipolar-1 sufferer swings between

mania

and

depression

and a bipolar-2 sufferer swings between depression and normality (with very little or no mania). In contrast, a BPDer flips back and forth between

loving you

and

devaluing you

."

Why do you not recognize one of these 3 patterns of mood swings? Are her mood swings better characterized in some other way?

[Stormie32]

Hi Downtown...thanks very much again.

 

Going thru the points 5, 9, 11, 16 as stated by you, and after reading your explanations, I agree with you that she exhibits these behaviours as well.

 

Regarding my observation on #1 as per your query, well...after thinking about it again...when she is normal she is quite happy and when she has gone through these episodes she seems depressed. I don't think she switches between loving/devaluing me. So then it turns out to be leaning towards a Bipolar-1 disorder for this point.

[Downtown]

After thinking about it again...when she is normal she is quite happy and when she has gone through these episodes she seems depressed. I don't think she switches between loving/devaluing me. So then it turns out to be leaning towards a Bipolar-1 disorder for this point.

I agree that you are describing classic Bipolar behaviors. As I noted in my first post, you seem to be primarily describing warning signs for Bipolar. Yet, because you mention no serious manic behavior, you are describing red flags for Bipolar-2, not Bipolar-1. That is, you're describing a woman who swings between a mild manic state (i.e., a very happy and energetic state called "hypomania") and strong depression. It is during the mild manic state that you should be seeing her have difficulty sleeping, something you complained about earlier.

 

If she were experiencing strong mania (Bipolar-1), she likely would not sleep at all on some nights. My foster son, for example, would be up all night in an excited, nervous state. If she does exhibit a full manic episode, you would see a mood state lasting at least one week wherein she has a very elevated, expansive or unusually irritable mood. Red flags for mania include the following:

 

• Increased irritability,
  
• Rapid Thinking with racing thoughts,
  
• Decreased need for sleep,
  
• Being engaged in many activities at once,
  
• Talking a lot,
  
• Easily distracted,
  
• Increased desire for sex,
  
• Very impulsive with risky behaviors like gambling and spending, and
  
• Grandiosity.
  

Importantly, I'm not saying that your W does not exhibit these behaviors and does not have Bipolar-1. I cannot know that. Rather, I'm only saying you are not describing it here. Indeed, you even stated that you were not seeing impulsive behavior.

[Stormie32]

Hi Downtown...thanks for the insights.

 

It is during the mild manic state that you should be seeing her have difficulty sleeping, something you complained about earlier.

 

Actually, when she is normal she feels sleepy very quickly, and sleeps a lot as well. During her episodes, when she is depressed/moody, she sleeps very little or probably not at all.

 

FYI in both these episodes, she had been found to have Vitamin B12 deficiency. Her doctor used to give her weekly injections thru which she came back to normalcy in the 1st episode, and is currently ongoing for the 2nd episode...

[Just a Guy]

Hi Downtown, I guess by now you would have a fair idea of what Stormie's wife is suffering from. What would you advise him in terms of things he can do for her and also for himself to manage this disorder so that it is kept toned down and does not consume him or the relationship? Of course a specialist will always be required but specialists have a way of concentrating on the patient solely, forgetting that those close to the patients can also feel victimized by the patients irrational behaviour. Some one who has been in the shoes of the spouse affected by the patient's disorder would better be able to advise that spouse how to circumnavigate the minefields created by the patient.

 

Stormie, you are getting good advice from someone who has studied this problem in detail. Continue to pay attention as I am sure you will benefit in the end from the knowledge that Downtown is so generously sharing with you. Warm wishes.

[Downtown]

Hi Downtown, I guess by now you would have a fair idea of what Stormie's wife is suffering from.

JustAGuy, no, I cannot know what Stormie's W is suffering from. I cannot diagnose the lady because I've never met her and I'm not a psychologist. The best I can do, then, is to help him understand what warning signs (i.e., behavioral symptoms) he should be looking for. Those lists of warning signs are easy to obtain because hundreds of mental health centers place them on their public websites in an effort to educate the lay public. Once Stormie learns which red flags are on the list for various disorders, he is in a position to judge -- for himself -- which warning signs have appeared strongly and persistently over the past 3 years.

 

I also can tell Stormie that the behaviors he describes here are listed as symptoms for both Bipolar and BPD. Yet, those two disorders are not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, BPD and Bipolar are a spectrum disorders, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD and Bipolar traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether his W exhibits these traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD or Bipolar spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe Stormie can spot any strong warning signs that are present if he takes a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list for BPD and Bipolar. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as strong mood changes, lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.

 

As I noted earlier, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable Stormie to diagnose his W's issues. Although he can spot strong warning signs whenever they occur, only a professional can determine whether those symptoms are so severe as to constitute a full-blown disorder. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for Bipolar and BPD may help him avoid a painful situation -- and may help him decide whether it is prudent to seek another professional opinion before walking away from his W. Moreover, learning the warning signs may help him avoid running into the arms of another woman just like his W in the event he decides to divorce her.

 

What would you advise him in terms of things he can do for her and also for himself to manage this disorder so that it is kept toned down and does not consume him or the relationship?

As I stated in posts 11 and 15, I advise Stormie to see a psychologist or psychiatrist -- for a visit or two all by himself -- to obtain a candid second-opinion on what it is he is dealing with. He tells us that "everyone (her parents & doctors) have told me she has BPD." Yet, Stormie tells us that he also sees strong warning signs for Bipolar.

 

I therefore believe that a second opinion from a psychologist or psychiatrist -- not a general medical doctor -- would be wise. Distinguishing between these two disorders is important because, whereas Bipolar sometimes can be treated quite successfully by swallowing a pill, BPD takes years to treat and very few BPDers will remain in therapy long enough to make a real difference. Moreover, the study I cited above found that 41% of female BPDers also suffer from Bipolar-1 or Bipolar-2.

 

As to what "he can do for her... to manage this disorder," there is nothing he himself can do to help if his W suffers from strong BPD or Bipolar traits. Healing is an inside job. She is the only one who can manage the symptoms by obtaining mood stabilizing medication from a psychiatrist for the Bipolar -- and by undergoing several years of intensive therapy for the BPD. If her BPD traits are only mild to moderate, however, it likely would help a little to learn the validation techniques that are discussed in books such as Stop Walking on Eggshells.

[Stormie32]

Hi Downtown....thanks for your advice again.

 

I like your explanation for these disorders as spectrum disorders - it helps understand them more.

 

As stated earlier, will visit a psychologist/psychiatrist asap, explain to him/her about the observed behaviours, and will keep this thread updated on the received feedback.

 

Any comment on the Vitamin B12 deficiency posted earlier? Is this common too of Bipolar/BPD sufferers?

 

Thanks for mentioning that book - Stop Walking on Eggshells. I will purchase it and another book I found was popular - Lost in the Mirror.

[Downtown]

Any comment on the Vitamin B12 deficiency posted earlier? Is this common too of Bipolar/BPD sufferers?

Stormie, I've not seen any statistics showing that B12 deficiency is a "common" contributor to strong Bipolar or BPD traits. It nonetheless is well known that such deficiency seems to worsen a person's moods because B12 is important for mood regulation and clear thinking. As to Bipolar, the article Folic Acid, B12, and Bipolar identifies five studies showing a correlation between B12 and Bipolar. A 2007 case study reaches a similar conclusion at B12 Deficiency Manifested as Mania. Also see Vitamin Deficiencies and Mental Health for a more general explanation of why the two are related. As to BPD, I've not seen any studies showing a significant correlation between BPD and B12 deficiency.

 

I like your explanation for these disorders as spectrum disorders - it helps understand them more.

You also may find it helpful to know that these spectrum disorders do not really constitute "disorders" at all. That is, the 157 "disorders" listed in the AMA's diagnostic manual tell you little or nothing about the underlying disorders. Rather, that manual simply lists the behavioral symptoms caused by the disorders.

 

There can be no description of the disorders until someone determines, to a certainty, what it is that causes these symptoms to occur at strong and persistent levels. Because the causes are still unproven, the psychiatric community assumes that some (unidentified) cause must exist when symptoms are severe.

 

This symptoms-based approach -- which the medical community essentially abandoned in the middle of the last century -- is still used in psychiatry because psychologists are able to help many patients by simply treating their symptoms. Yet, until the underlying disorder is actually known, none of the 157 "disorders" can be cured. They can't cure what they can't identify.

 

Another serious problem with this approach is that, although 157 different patterns of behavioral symptoms are identified, nobody knows how many disorders give rise to those 157 sets of symptoms. In the medical field, for example, it is common for one set of symptoms to be caused by a dozen different diseases. It also is common for a single disease to cause many different sets of symptoms in various people. Symptoms therefore may tell you little or nothing about the nature of an underlying disorder or disease. This is why the medical community stopped basing diagnosis on symptoms and based it instead on lab tests that can identify the underlying cause.

[Stormie32]

Hi there!

 

Finally got an appointment for a 2nd opinion from a psychiatrist. There was an advantage to meeting this particular psychiatrist as my W had met her 6 months ago along with her mother. My W did accompany me this time. I was able to have a one-on-one session with the psychiatrist.

 

I explained the list of behaviours also previously mentioned in this thread and the history of my W's case. These were the observations/feedback:

 

- The psychiatrist has described my W's condition as Psychosis, rather than Bipolar or BPD.

 

- She noted that with the right medicine taken in the right quantities at the right time, this disorder would not be a big issue in our lives.

 

- She did ask me on what was the diagnosis from the current doctor. The previous doctor had diagnosed it as Borderline disorder. During the 1st episode, the current (2nd) doctor had been able to cure her. Unfortunately I could not recall having asked this current doctor about the diagnosis as Bipolar or BPD....from whatever I recall he certainly had not mentioned Bipolar. W is due to meet with the current doctor 15 days from now - I will accompany her then and clarify on the diagnosis.