Where should we be by now?

[harrybrown]

in putting yourself in your H's place, what should he do after you had your affair and went back to your affair?

 

How does he know that this was your only affair partner? If it happened again and again, in his mind, he sees many other affairs and many OMs.

 

He has lost his self-esteem. He feels like sh*t.

 

He feels like life is not worth living. What does the future hold? Are you having another affair today? He can't trust you, you have proven that to him.

 

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice? So what does he look forward to?

 

How would you feel if your H kept up his affair?

 

I am not trying to make you feel rotten, he feels rotten.

 

Affair recovery.com did help some. Maybe that is where you went before.

But you do need someone that has experience helping with infidelity.

 

If you want to help him heal, there are some books that help with ways to show that you have proper boundaries now. Did you have the std test?

 

Did you test the kids to show him that they have his DNA?

 

Did you start protecting him by exposing the POSOM to his family and his spouse? You can do that with a letter to his spouse's work.

 

Have you tried to show him that you think highly of him and respect him?

 

you put so much energy into the A. Use that energy now for your H.

 

Does he have anyone is his family that he respects, his father, his brother, his mother that can get him to AA? Get help from his family to protect your family. You want your kids to be safe.

 

I do not know if he will allow it, but find ways to show how you feel about him. If you do not love him, time to leave.

 

good luck to your family.

[aileD]

With your spouse? If that's what you mean, then maybe you have a different definition of "in love" than I do. I've been in love with my wife since day 1 and that will never change.

 

What I'm saying is that the rush you get from falling in love...the limerence...the high....it ebbs and flows during a marriage, it's unsustainable indefinitely.

[aileD]

Please don't start the "let's blame the BS " game again - it's counterproductive to OP as well. It distracts from the original question and follow up questions; what can she actually DO herself?

 

Sincere, substantial and sustained change and empathy over time is the only thing that will have any positive effect with regards to saving the relationship.

 

Not blaming the BS at all I'm just being truthful. WS bears all the blame for the affair. 100% for sure. What I said was in recovery you have to work together to both fix the things that were broken in your marriage before the affair. Why would you want to have the same exact marriage.

 

My H has more work to do than I do, but that is not to say that I don't have work to donmyself to help us heal and be better than we were before.

 

A BS can't fix their marriage alone, and neither can a WS

[Southern Sun]

Technically speaking, you are the reason he drinks. Your mere presence may even cause him to drink. There are plenty of stories of BH's staying with cheating women and torturing themselves, and instead of leaving they pick up unhealthy habits to cope and ultimately destroy themselves. It seems your husband is following the same path.

 

I do get what you're saying; he is responding to the pain of the betrayal by ramping up his drinking behaviors (he always drank but it's worse now). However if I totally subscribed to your logic, then I could blame other people or things for my affair. Both cheating and drinking are escapes, coping mechanisms...faulty ones of course. But I think it's wrong to blame others for our choices, just as it would be wrong for me to blame my husband for my infidelity. Even if he did something before it that brought me pain. Neither one of us had to respond in those particular ways.

 

I do understand and own and deeply regret that I've done things which have caused him to feel such pain.

[BluesPower]

Listen SS...

 

I for one do not judge you, certainly not worse than you judge yourself. You know what you did was horribly wrong, and you own that in my opinion. I praise you for that.

 

I have some questions though:

 

1) What is the deal with no therapy?

2) Is it a religious thing?

3) You are a grown woman, can't you just tell him you are going to get help.

4) Will your husband just not talk about the drinking?

5) Does he realize that right now he is an alcoholic?

 

If you don't mind answering those I would like to know.

 

I want to point some things out that you probably already know, but just in case you don't.

 

You are really at the beginning of trying to rebuild your marriage. That is the first think to know. You are just starting a long and maybe impossible task, but it is possible. So to answer your original question, yes in your case this is probably where you should be. The drinking is a problem, and unfortunately you are really to blame for it. You are not making him drink and he is choosing a poor coping mechanism but you are the reason that he is doing it.

 

He is destroyed, for the following reasons. He was already sexually insecure which is why intimacy stopped. Whether is was penis size, premature ejaculation, ED, lack of technique, lack of physical attractiveness, or just hung up about sex, he was insecure.

 

As you know now, that is something that the two of you should have addressed years ago. You choose to have an affair to get those legitimate needs met. Both of you made huge mistakes here and this was just completely dysfunctional.

 

The way the your husband is and has behaved about this area, he will never recover. If he won't seek therapy in this of all areas, he will never get better.

 

To make it worse, if you were honest and you say you were, he knows that you had the best sex of your life with your AP. Either bigger, more stamina, more technique, or all three. He was probably more attractive than your husband as well. Again, if you husband does not change his attitude about all of this, he will never recover, ever.

 

So next, with all the problems in your marriage, conflict avoidance, lack of commination, and on and on, your husband is choosing to self medicate his pain. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM. I suspect that he has always drank quite a bit, but now he is a full blown alcoholic and you guys have yet another problem to deal with.

 

You caused a lot of these problems and you know that, but you did not cause all of the initial problems, but you made everything a 1000 times worse.

 

Staying in the marriage for the kids, is not the right thing to do. They will have a depressed mother and a drunk father, this is not good.

 

You staying for you own comfort or the money that your husband provides and the lifestyle that you have, makes you a foolish coward. Sorry to be so blunt. But you know it is true.

 

Look I have been some of the places that you have been, and some much worse. I was never sexually challenged by any of my wife's affairs in any way. I was embarrassed but the dorks that she choose to have an affair with, that was just the worst. Men that I could brake in half with one hand. I learned to live with it but I was totally pissed off for a long time.

 

My wife on the other hand could never accept my affairs, and admittedly there were a lot, but in my case, her and her drug use cut off all sex. People can crucify me for it, but that is something that I was not going to deal with at all. No go for me. Even though she cheated first, and she cut off the sex, she could not get over my infidelity. Truthfully, she was probably too far gone with the drugs to do anything. Not that it matters, but is did not cheat until the end of the marriage, probably all exit affairs really.

 

Her 20 year drug addiction that was hidden put me through complete hell. I had to look after her, raise the kids, make all the money and it nearly killed me. I literally had a stroke because of the stress, I recovered but I could have died.

 

I could forgive her for that, or at least I could have gotten over it. But you know what the final straw was, She never loved me and I love her with all my heart. That was it.

 

In my case I waited too long to end it. It was the best decision I ever made.

 

My question to you is, can you say that you honestly love your husband any more? Not because you have kids, not because you hurt him, not because you betrayed him in a horrible way. Do you honestly love him?

 

And if he will not get help for any of these issues, is it worth it to try and stay married to him. Would it be kinder to let him go. I think you were both broken before you have the affair, I can assure you that your husband does not get help, he will forever be broken.

 

Would it be better to let him go? Would both of you be happier?

[Southern Sun]

in putting yourself in your H's place, what should he do after you had your affair and went back to your affair?

 

How does he know that this was your only affair partner? If it happened again and again, in his mind, he sees many other affairs and many OMs.

 

He has lost his self-esteem. He feels like sh*t.

 

He feels like life is not worth living. What does the future hold? Are you having another affair today? He can't trust you, you have proven that to him.

 

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice? So what does he look forward to?

 

How would you feel if your H kept up his affair?

 

I am not trying to make you feel rotten, he feels rotten.

 

Affair recovery.com did help some. Maybe that is where you went before.

But you do need someone that has experience helping with infidelity.

 

If you want to help him heal, there are some books that help with ways to show that you have proper boundaries now. Did you have the std test?

 

Did you test the kids to show him that they have his DNA?

 

Did you start protecting him by exposing the POSOM to his family and his spouse? You can do that with a letter to his spouse's work.

 

Have you tried to show him that you think highly of him and respect him?

 

you put so much energy into the A. Use that energy now for your H.

 

Does he have anyone is his family that he respects, his father, his brother, his mother that can get him to AA? Get help from his family to protect your family. You want your kids to be safe.

 

I do not know if he will allow it, but find ways to show how you feel about him. If you do not love him, time to leave.

 

good luck to your family.

 

I have read so many books. He gets triggered, though, when he thinks I'm reading about affairs. He won't read about them.

 

No, I did not DNA test my kids. I have never had an affair before this one. This never crossed my mind, nor his, I don't think. They are his children, heavens.

 

As far as exposure, my H did confront the OM, but we never went to his family. We were counseled by our church not to do that, and my H holds our pastor in very high regard. He had some ambivalence about this, but our church is very involved in our situation and believes in "authority." We believed we were following the advice of our authority, which was ultimately the "will of God." All very confusing of course, with all the emotions.

 

Yes, I've certainly tried to show him my respect and admiration in different ways than before. He also has my full transparency and access to my devices and location at all times.

 

It's tough, he has no decent father figure. I could go to my church leaders about the drinking but I am worried he will feel further betrayed. I don't know how to manage this. I will have to figure out a way to help him though. Somehow.

[Birdies]

Technically speaking, you are the reason he drinks. Your mere presence may even cause him to drink. There are plenty of stories of BH's staying with cheating women and torturing themselves, and instead of leaving they pick up unhealthy habits to cope and ultimately destroy themselves. It seems your husband is following the same path.

 

Sorry but this is BS. This is exactly the same kind of blanket statement that gets so (rightfully) condemned here: "my bad marriage was the reason I cheated!" No, that is a decision that one consciously makes. As is his decision to indulge in alcoholism. (And to be frank - I say that as a highly functional alcoholic myself.)

 

SS - I know it's hard work, but you need to address the drinking and the lack of letting you be in therapy. He was deeply betrayed and deserves a lot of latitude in his response, of course, but that is not an unlimited hall pass....

[Marc878]

I have read so many books. He gets triggered, though, when he thinks I'm reading about affairs. He won't read about them.

 

No, I did not DNA test my kids. I have never had an affair before this one. This never crossed my mind, nor his, I don't think. They are his children, heavens.

 

As far as exposure, my H did confront the OM, but we never went to his family. We were counseled by our church not to do that, and my H holds our pastor in very high regard. He had some ambivalence about this, but our church is very involved in our situation and believes in "authority." We believed we were following the advice of our authority, which was ultimately the "will of God." All very confusing of course, with all the emotions.

 

Yes, I've certainly tried to show him my respect and admiration in different ways than before. He also has my full transparency and access to my devices and location at all times.

 

It's tough, he has no decent father figure. I could go to my church leaders about the drinking but I am worried he will feel further betrayed. I don't know how to manage this. I will have to figure out a way to help him though. Somehow.

 

Most churches or pastors are not that knowledgable about infidelity. A. Betrayed helping to hide the affair doesn't get much. I don't believe in nuclear exposure but it would have gotten him some closure and support. Close relatives. OM's wife , etc.

 

You must find a way to help him with the alcohol. That just makes this situation worse. If that's possible. The affair is enough to deal with. Without the alcohol problem.

[BluesPower]

SS...

 

Your church is wrong, it must be that the OM was a big wig in the church?? Or maybe a powerful business man in the community.

 

Am I right? And I bet the church is advising him to go the no counseling route. I was in the church, they are the worst hypocrites in the world about this stuff. I have never met a pastor in any church that had the slightest idea how to deal with basic marriage problems much less infidelity. And believe me I have known more than a few.

 

This is the reason the he is not getting better.

 

If this is where his head is at you need to call in dogs and piss on the fire, this will never get better. Get out of that church and get out of the marriage. None of that will help you or him.

 

Sorry...

[Southern Sun]

First, I appreciate you taking the time to write what you did. Below...

 

Listen SS...

 

I for one do not judge you, certainly not worse than you judge yourself. You know what you did was horribly wrong, and you own that in my opinion. I praise you for that.

 

I have some questions though:

 

1) What is the deal with no therapy?

2) Is it a religious thing?

3) You are a grown woman, can't you just tell him you are going to get help.

 

Answering all three in this one. I started IC while I was still in my affair, so now my H associates therapy with the A...as well as being totally unsuccessful in his mind in getting me out. I think on some level he wonders if my therapist even supported the A. There is sort of a religious component to this. I mentioned in a previous reply to Harry Brown that our church is very involved in our situation. They do NOT at all believe in secular counseling, so doing it would be going against their advice. Finally, yes, I'm a grown woman. But I feel that going against his wishes in this area would be tantamount to hurting him all over again. Like he told me no more and I said okay. How do I push back on that, when I pretty much deserve nothing?

 

4) Will your husband just not talk about the drinking?

5) Does he realize that right now he is an alcoholic?

 

After some of our arguments (mostly his diatribes), the next morning he will say that he thinks he might have a problem (with alcohol). But he has never put the label "alcoholic" on it. I don't think it would be easy for him to admit that. He ended tonight after 8 drinks. That is a typical weekday night.

 

If you don't mind answering those I would like to know.

 

I want to point some things out that you probably already know, but just in case you don't.

 

You are really at the beginning of trying to rebuild your marriage. That is the first think to know. You are just starting a long and maybe impossible task, but it is possible. So to answer your original question, yes in your case this is probably where you should be. The drinking is a problem, and unfortunately you are really to blame for it. You are not making him drink and he is choosing a poor coping mechanism but you are the reason that he is doing it.

 

As far as being at the very beginning of re-building...that's a good point. I probably just need to re-set my mind totally. This has been such a long and hard road, which started waaaay before the re-building began, that I am truly tapped out at times. I just need to get my head on straight.

 

He is destroyed, for the following reasons. He was already sexually insecure which is why intimacy stopped. Whether is was penis size, premature ejaculation, ED, lack of technique, lack of physical attractiveness, or just hung up about sex, he was insecure.

 

He didn't start off insecure, but for some reason, he became that way and developed one of the problems that you mentioned. And he chose to pretend it wasn't happening and did nothing about it, for years. Ironically, he is a physically attractive man. But I began to feel rejected by him, by his passiveness, in a sense. We weren't able to be truly intimate and he didn't seem to want to try.

 

As you know now, that is something that the two of you should have addressed years ago. You choose to have an affair to get those legitimate needs met. Both of you made huge mistakes here and this was just completely dysfunctional.

 

The way the your husband is and has behaved about this area, he will never recover. If he won't seek therapy in this of all areas, he will never get better.

 

To make it worse, if you were honest and you say you were, he knows that you had the best sex of your life with your AP. Either bigger, more stamina, more technique, or all three. He was probably more attractive than your husband as well. Again, if you husband does not change his attitude about all of this, he will never recover, ever.

 

My H knows the man, who is older than us. He doesn't get it at all from the physical attractiveness standpoint. For me, I wasn't initially attracted to him physically; it was more about how he interacted with his world. So my H is busy comparing physical attributes, and that's not the issue. I was as honest as I could be when he asked, although if he asked hard questions like, "Was he bigger?", I usually waited a second and he would say, never mind. The reason I say he knows pretty much everything is that, in addition to my confessions, he also read some graphic emails. He saw what he saw. I keep reading about how you need to improve those areas in your marriage that were suffering before the affair. We desperately need to fix our sex life. But I can't try to guide him in any way in the bedroom without it coming off like a comparison of some sort or like I want him to do something like my AP did it.

 

So next, with all the problems in your marriage, conflict avoidance, lack of commination, and on and on, your husband is choosing to self medicate his pain. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM. I suspect that he has always drank quite a bit, but now he is a full blown alcoholic and you guys have yet another problem to deal with.

 

You caused a lot of these problems and you know that, but you did not cause all of the initial problems, but you made everything a 1000 times worse.

 

Staying in the marriage for the kids, is not the right thing to do. They will have a depressed mother and a drunk father, this is not good.

 

You staying for you own comfort or the money that your husband provides and the lifestyle that you have, makes you a foolish coward. Sorry to be so blunt. But you know it is true.

 

Well, that is blunt because I have never indicated such a thing.

 

Look I have been some of the places that you have been, and some much worse. I was never sexually challenged by any of my wife's affairs in any way. I was embarrassed but the dorks that she choose to have an affair with, that was just the worst. Men that I could brake in half with one hand. I learned to live with it but I was totally pissed off for a long time.

 

My wife on the other hand could never accept my affairs, and admittedly there were a lot, but in my case, her and her drug use cut off all sex. People can crucify me for it, but that is something that I was not going to deal with at all. No go for me. Even though she cheated first, and she cut off the sex, she could not get over my infidelity. Truthfully, she was probably too far gone with the drugs to do anything. Not that it matters, but is did not cheat until the end of the marriage, probably all exit affairs really.

 

Her 20 year drug addiction that was hidden put me through complete hell. I had to look after her, raise the kids, make all the money and it nearly killed me. I literally had a stroke because of the stress, I recovered but I could have died.

 

I could forgive her for that, or at least I could have gotten over it. But you know what the final straw was, She never loved me and I love her with all my heart. That was it.

 

In my case I waited too long to end it. It was the best decision I ever made.

 

My question to you is, can you say that you honestly love your husband any more? Not because you have kids, not because you hurt him, not because you betrayed him in a horrible way. Do you honestly love him?

 

And if he will not get help for any of these issues, is it worth it to try and stay married to him. Would it be kinder to let him go. I think you were both broken before you have the affair, I can assure you that your husband does not get help, he will forever be broken.

 

Would it be better to let him go? Would both of you be happier?

 

How do you know your wife never loved you? That's a big thing to say.

 

I do still love him. But I would like to know, what should I expect married love to be like? I don't even believe in the "in love" thing anymore, not after the beginning. On our good days, we have a very functional and practical partnership; we are good parents together; we have a lot of fun and laugh and goof off; we are supportive of one another; we talk to each other and listen and take care of each other's needs.

 

But we are missing one piece, and that is the sexual one. I don't know if that's kind of normal at this stage? If we can get it back? If it just got so damaged over time...his avoidance of his issues, and then my affair...that it is beyond repair?

 

I think if we could fix that part, it would be worth staying in, for both of us. Without it, I think it will break him and leave me empty.

[Southern Sun]

SS...

 

Your church is wrong, it must be that the OM was a big wig in the church?? Or maybe a powerful business man in the community.

 

Am I right? And I bet the church is advising him to go the no counseling route. I was in the church, they are the worst hypocrites in the world about this stuff. I have never met a pastor in any church that had the slightest idea how to deal with basic marriage problems much less infidelity. And believe me I have known more than a few.

 

This is the reason the he is not getting better.

 

If this is where his head is at you need to call in dogs and piss on the fire, this will never get better. Get out of that church and get out of the marriage. None of that will help you or him.

 

Sorry...

 

OM doesn't go to our church and they couldn't give a squat about his reputation. They just didn't believe in spreading the hurt and anger to "innocent bystanders." That he would reap what he sowed eventually.

 

BH did expose to my family and friends however.

 

He isn't not going to therapy bc of the church advice. I think he would go if he really wanted. This is more about it triggering bad feelings in him, feeling it was attached to my affair, and "does no good."

 

I agree, it's possible my church's advice has done more harm than good in this situation.

[waterwoman]

Hey southern, I am sorry for the situation you are both in. I'm a BS so I can see his POV perhaps more than yours. But a long time ago I had a brief EA (didn't think of it like that at the time) so I can get a glimpse of the other side as well. You were braver than me as I never confessed until after H's A.

 

Your question is whether this is normal. It's certainly not uncommon. The main issue is whether you or your children (do you have them?) should have to put up with drunkeness and abuse for a prolonged period of time.

 

It can take years (4.5 years in my case to be completely 'over' it) - there is no way you should tolerate this situation for that long. Yes, you caused the hurt but unfairly he is going to have to the one to heal it for himself. He can't unilaterally decide not to bother and expect to keep his marriage.

[Mr Blunt]

By Southern Sun

Is there a "normal" for this phase?

 

 

By Blunt

There is no normal with infidelity. If you compare your R to some that are making real good progress in R then Your R is pathetic

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By Southern Sun

It’s hard for me to imagine that this is really the end of us? I mean, if that is the consequence…I would have to take it. But my H is not imposing that consequence. So, now what?

 

 

By Blunt

You ask the question so here are my thoughts

Without some very major changes your marriage will remain pathetic. Why do I say that?

 

1 Your betrayal was very painful; your words, your actions, and your two d-days.

 

2 Your husband refuses to go to any counselling and does not want you to go to any either.

 

3 Your husband is drinking a lot more

 

4 Your sex life on a scale of 1-10 is 0

 

5 Your words of “It feels like its almost an unbearable state of living. I mean that for both of us.”

 

 

With both you and your husband doing everything that you can to save the marriage you have a 50/50 chance at best. Because of the five I have listed above you have no chance at this time IMO.

 

 

Without MAJOR changes you will be left with living in a marriage that feels like it is an unbearable state of living or divorce and you both start a new life without each other. Sometimes you have to pay the full consequence of betrayal.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Mr Blunt

[Southern Sun]

Hey southern, I am sorry for the situation you are both in. I'm a BS so I can see his POV perhaps more than yours. But a long time ago I had a brief EA (didn't think of it like that at the time) so I can get a glimpse of the other side as well. You were braver than me as I never confessed until after H's A.

 

Your question is whether this is normal. It's certainly not uncommon. The main issue is whether you or your children (do you have them?) should have to put up with drunkeness and abuse for a prolonged period of time.

 

It can take years (4.5 years in my case to be completely 'over' it) - there is no way you should tolerate this situation for that long. Yes, you caused the hurt but unfairly he is going to have to the one to heal it for himself. He can't unilaterally decide not to bother and expect to keep his marriage.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. 4.5 years. It does amaze me the length of time I hear quoted on this board. I understand that it doesn't mean that everything is miserable that whole time. But wow. I already look like sh ! t and we've only been at this for 10 months.

 

 

By Southern Sun

Is there a "normal" for this phase?

 

 

By Blunt

There is no normal with infidelity. If you compare your R to some that are making real good progress in R then Your R is pathetic

 

 

By Southern Sun

It’s hard for me to imagine that this is really the end of us? I mean, if that is the consequence…I would have to take it. But my H is not imposing that consequence. So, now what?

 

 

By Blunt

You ask the question so here are my thoughts

Without some very major changes your marriage will remain pathetic. Why do I say that?

 

1 Your betrayal was very painful; your words, your actions, and your two d-days.

 

2 Your husband refuses to go to any counselling and does not want you to go to any either.

 

3 Your husband is drinking a lot more

 

4 Your sex life on a scale of 1-10 is 0

 

5 Your words of “It feels like its almost an unbearable state of living. I mean that for both of us.”

 

 

With both you and your husband doing everything that you can to save the marriage you have a 50/50 chance at best. Because of the five I have listed above you have no chance at this time IMO.

 

 

Without MAJOR changes you will be left with living in a marriage that feels like it is an unbearable state of living or divorce and you both start a new life without each other. Sometimes you have to pay the full consequence of betrayal.

 

What is amazing to me is the "front" my H will put on. When I finally break down and come to him and say how painful this is - usually after days of HIM breaking - he will cajole me and say, 'come on, we're fine really, aren't you overblowing this a little?' Then he puts on his happy face and is suddenly totally different, he does a complete 180. I have no idea from one day to the next what he will be. I understand that this may be normal in R too. But sometimes I feel that he is lying to himself. Well, I know he is, because he pushes his feelings down so far, ignores them, until they blow in a rage episode.

 

Sure, I believe he can legit have some good moments with me. We do have them. But I don't trust his swings. I just worry that much of it is pretend (for self-protection), which will not serve either of us.

 

One person can ask us how we are, and I would answer "Terrible," (if I was being honest), and he would say in a chipper tone, "Great!!"

[understand50]

Southern Sun,

 

As to your original question, "Where should we be now?", the answer, is about where you are. You do not like the place you are, but I would challenge you to think of what you can do to change the situation. He will not help himself, past drinking, so what is YOUR response? Your sex life has dropped, so what will YOU do about it?

 

You seem to be going with the flow, both before, during and after the affair. You do not seem to try and take charge of YOUR life, and try and do better. In all things, YOU are in control, even when you blame circumstances. You state you read "all these" books. Well, how are you applying them? You have read all these posts. Are you taking anything from them and see what YOU can do to change the situation?

 

Bottom line, you can not make your husband change, unless he wants too. You can change the environment, to make it easier, or to promote change for him, but it all begins with you. I feel that you two have a chance at reconciliation, if I read a plan of action from you. The links I and others have given you should give many ideas on how to proceed. Here is something I wrote on another post. Do not know if it would work, but if you do not try, how would you know?.

 

"As, because there was NO money, and I was unemployed at the time, we did DIY MC. What this is, is communication, and DATE night. Date night first. MY wife pointed out, that when we did have the means we never did things. There were many reasons for this, but the main reason is that we did not make being with each other a priority. So each Friday, we go and do things. From walking in the park, going to dinner (if we had the funds) to picnics, to making out at the beach. Point is, even when we had nothing we made time for each other. There are some rules. What ever was going in our life and between us, we made a effort to forget it, while be were on a date and have fun with each other. This has been a success for us.

 

For communication, we have a now monthly "talk". Started out weekly. In this talk anything can be disused, nothing is off the table. We both seek out honestly, and try and disuses in a calm way what went on, what is going on, and how to improve. The main rule, is anything brought up at our talk stays there and can only be brought up again at the next talk. Theoretically, she could inform me that she now has a string of lovers, or I to her about my harem on the side, and we would not "pick" at each other during the time before our next talk. I am being silly, but the main idea to to slow down communication, allow a safe space to admit things, and let each think of the follow on questions. We used this to go into why she spent our retirement, 2nd Mortgage and ran up all the credit cards. When new information came to light about her ONS, I confronted her in one of our talks, and let her respond, and then over time me to ask follow on questions.

 

I think, or it worked for us, that both may help. The date night helps to reconnect, and the "talk" date helps to allow both to communicate, but not let that dominate the relationship."

 

My main point to you is reconciliation does not just happen by itself, it is an ACTION. One or both must take action(s), and keep working until some path is found that works. Myself and my wife, have done all sorts of things. This just works for us. Do not know it it would work for you two, but I do not see anything you are doing now. What is your plan? How are you going to implement it? How are you going to drag you husband along?

 

Your original question: "Where should we be by now?" You and your husband are in the place where you both are trying to find out what you both need to do to reconcile. In many ways, you are just starting. Time to sit and think on what you are going to do to move this along.

 

 

As Always I Wish you and yours luck.......

[Mrs. John Adams]

2-5 years to heal if absolutely everything goes right...

And I am here to tell you... it seldom does.

 

It takes two to reconcile and you both have to be willing to do whatever it takes to heal the other one.

 

I wonder... have you said to him... I will do whatever you want me to do. Including leaving and asking you for nothing.

 

And if you have ... what is his response?

 

If he is unwilling to reconcile... your efforts are futile. If he is unwilling to communicate, to read , to go to counseling , to get help.... you have his answer.

 

And honestly.. there comes a time to evaluate the relationship.

 

What are you trying to save? And why? Have you done everything you can to make him feel safe? Has he committed to you that he is willing to do whatever it takes to save the relationship?

 

You are living in limbo... and neither of you is healing... you resent his drinking... you resent his unwillingness to try... and he resents you... everything you said and did destroyed him...

 

I think a come to Jesus meeting is in order... and if he is not willing to help you help him...

 

See a lawyer

 

As long as a couple still works together to improve the relationship ... there is hope

 

But both parties have to work together

[Southern Sun]

Southern Sun,

 

As to your original question, "Where should we be now?", the answer, is about where you are. You do not like the place you are, but I would challenge you to think of what you can do to change the situation. He will not help himself, past drinking, so what is YOUR response? Your sex life has dropped, so what will YOU do about it?

 

You seem to be going with the flow, both before, during and after the affair. You do not seem to try and take charge of YOUR life, and try and do better. In all things, YOU are in control, even when you blame circumstances. You state you read "all these" books. Well, how are you applying them? You have read all these posts. Are you taking anything from them and see what YOU can do to change the situation?

 

Bottom line, you can not make your husband change, unless he wants too. You can change the environment, to make it easier, or to promote change for him, but it all begins with you. I feel that you two have a chance at reconciliation, if I read a plan of action from you. The links I and others have given you should give many ideas on how to proceed. Here is something I wrote on another post. Do not know if it would work, but if you do not try, how would you know?.

 

"As, because there was NO money, and I was unemployed at the time, we did DIY MC. What this is, is communication, and DATE night. Date night first. MY wife pointed out, that when we did have the means we never did things. There were many reasons for this, but the main reason is that we did not make being with each other a priority. So each Friday, we go and do things. From walking in the park, going to dinner (if we had the funds) to picnics, to making out at the beach. Point is, even when we had nothing we made time for each other. There are some rules. What ever was going in our life and between us, we made a effort to forget it, while be were on a date and have fun with each other. This has been a success for us.

 

For communication, we have a now monthly "talk". Started out weekly. In this talk anything can be disused, nothing is off the table. We both seek out honestly, and try and disuses in a calm way what went on, what is going on, and how to improve. The main rule, is anything brought up at our talk stays there and can only be brought up again at the next talk. Theoretically, she could inform me that she now has a string of lovers, or I to her about my harem on the side, and we would not "pick" at each other during the time before our next talk. I am being silly, but the main idea to to slow down communication, allow a safe space to admit things, and let each think of the follow on questions. We used this to go into why she spent our retirement, 2nd Mortgage and ran up all the credit cards. When new information came to light about her ONS, I confronted her in one of our talks, and let her respond, and then over time me to ask follow on questions.

 

I think, or it worked for us, that both may help. The date night helps to reconnect, and the "talk" date helps to allow both to communicate, but not let that dominate the relationship."

 

My main point to you is reconciliation does not just happen by itself, it is an ACTION. One or both must take action(s), and keep working until some path is found that works. Myself and my wife, have done all sorts of things. This just works for us. Do not know it it would work for you two, but I do not see anything you are doing now. What is your plan? How are you going to implement it? How are you going to drag you husband along?

 

Your original question: "Where should we be by now?" You and your husband are in the place where you both are trying to find out what you both need to do to reconcile. In many ways, you are just starting. Time to sit and think on what you are going to do to move this along.

 

 

As Always I Wish you and yours luck.......

 

Thank you. Besides the "blocking and tackling" (like transparency, being accountable for my time, careful not to do anything that would make him feel uncomfortable or suspicious, being totally open, allowing GPS on my phone, passwords, etc.), I don't exactly know what to do.

 

I've asked for couples therapy and he won't do it.

 

I've bought books for us to read (and hopefully implement the suggestions), and he always fails to read them. So nothing happens. He sometimes starts them and just falters as time goes on.

 

I do have a new book and was thinking about asking him to work through the exercises...as you said, a DIY kind of therapy.

 

I will give you, we have both lacked in energy. His world has been turned upside down due to my affair, and my world was turned upside down too. I don't know myself anymore. But I have tried. The only thing I know to do now is come up with another plan of action (like you mentioned), and hope that he will come along. I admire your ability to have logical conversations with your wife. That is one thing we struggle with mightily. It is a rare day that we can just sit and have a good talk, where anything is on the table, and his emotional reactivity is in check. It limits our ability to have real discussions.

[Southern Sun]

2-5 years to heal if absolutely everything goes right...

And I am here to tell you... it seldom does.

 

It takes two to reconcile and you both have to be willing to do whatever it takes to heal the other one.

 

I wonder... have you said to him... I will do whatever you want me to do. Including leaving and asking you for nothing.

 

And if you have ... what is his response?

 

If he is unwilling to reconcile... your efforts are futile. If he is unwilling to communicate, to read , to go to counseling , to get help.... you have his answer.

 

And honestly.. there comes a time to evaluate the relationship.

 

What are you trying to save? And why? Have you done everything you can to make him feel safe? Has he committed to you that he is willing to do whatever it takes to save the relationship?

 

You are living in limbo... and neither of you is healing... you resent his drinking... you resent his unwillingness to try... and he resents you... everything you said and did destroyed him...

 

I think a come to Jesus meeting is in order... and if he is not willing to help you help him...

 

See a lawyer

 

As long as a couple still works together to improve the relationship ... there is hope

 

But both parties have to work together

 

I have said that to him. He always says he wants us. He loves me, more than anything. No, he doesn't want me to leave.

 

Yes, I do think I am doing everything possible to make him feel safe. I don't know what else I could do, frankly! I literally have no opportunity to have an affair. What he wants is future certainty that he will never be hurt again.

 

Things are so much more complicated than just, "do I stay or do I go." I don't understand how one makes such a big decision, when there are so many moving parts. I really don't. It overwhelms me, all the things and people that would be affected by it. I have my children to consider, my family, my parents (who say I MUST make it work, no matter what), my church (who say I MUST make it work, no matter what), my friends (who are in the church). Everywhere I turn I am confronted with the message that what I did was WRONG and I will make it WORSE by not reconciling my relationship. I need to fix it, I need to make it right. Why can't I fix it? It would be best for everyone, right?

 

Yes, I am living in limbo. Why is that? I think that's why I look like sh ! t. I am living in a long-sustained limbo. You use the word "resent" about my attitude towards my H's drinking. I don't feel resentful. I am concerned. It's not good for him, it runs in his family, and it's bad for our relationship. Maybe I do resent that he is still hiding from our problems...something he has done for two decades.

 

I am absolutely confused.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I have said that to him. He always says he wants us. He loves me, more than anything. No, he doesn't want me to leave.

 

Yes, I do think I am doing everything possible to make him feel safe. I don't know what else I could do, frankly! I literally have no opportunity to have an affair. What he wants is future certainty that he will never be hurt again.

 

Things are so much more complicated than just, "do I stay or do I go." I don't understand how one makes such a big decision, when there are so many moving parts. I really don't. It overwhelms me, all the things and people that would be affected by it. I have my children to consider, my family, my parents (who say I MUST make it work, no matter what), my church (who say I MUST make it work, no matter what), my friends (who are in the church). Everywhere I turn I am confronted with the message that what I did was WRONG and I will make it WORSE by not reconciling my relationship. I need to fix it, I need to make it right. Why can't I fix it? It would be best for everyone, right?

 

Yes, I am living in limbo. Why is that? I think that's why I look like sh ! t. I am living in a long-sustained limbo. You use the word "resent" about my attitude towards my H's drinking. I don't feel resentful. I am concerned. It's not good for him, it runs in his family, and it's bad for our relationship. Maybe I do resent that he is still hiding from our problems...something he has done for two decades.

 

I am absolutely confused.

 

And you understand that if you are doing everything you can to help him... then you can do no more.

 

If you tell him.., we have to move forward and that means we seek professional help... and if you don't want to take this step then what step do you want to take next?

 

Make him respond... if he says I want us .. then you must say then prove it...

 

Saying it with no action proves nothing.

 

It is not good for Him for you or for your children.

 

10 months is long enough to do nothing... time to take action.

 

You can give him all the time he needs if you see he is making an effort. It's when we just do nothing that love dies... it has to be nurtured and fed.

 

My husband was very depressed and even took anti depressants... but he still made sure I knew he wanted US.

 

If we are unsure of our spouse we become frightened and we tend to flee.

 

He is taking a very big risk refusing to do nothing.

 

I am not telling you to give up.. I am telling you to make him give you a response ... make him take some kind of action...

 

The choice is his

[DKT3]

Maybe I can help you understand that dynamic a little. Your husband would love nothing more than to toss you aside and move on with his life without you, and maybe ( honestly most likely) he will. But he loves you, he is comfortable with the life you've built together. When he sees you in pain he wants to comfort and protect you. Then as everything plays in his mind he gets angry, angry at what you did, angry at how you can think so little of him, angry at how you could so willingly give yourself up to another man, which then turns to self hate. Hating himself for not being strong enough to throw you back like you did him, hating himself for being nice to you hating himself for loving you. That would a where his anger comes from that is why you see the inconsistency in his behavior.

 

I'm guessing he was always very consistent proir to your affair and that maybe playing a huge part in your confusion....That man is gone, at least with you. Who he is or will become will be different than who he was. Harder, less trusting, unpredictable.

 

I tell WWs all the time to watch for a calm, when the questions stop coming, when the emotions stabilize, it's a sign of the end, a sign that his mind has become comfortable with what life would be like without you.

 

So for now emotions are good, it's kinda his way of showing he will said still engaged.

 

Small story to share, as I closed in on divorce my wife could sense something was off. She became very clingy, emotionally​ needy. She would ask alot will we be ok....Sure, everything is fine, it will work out the way it should. She just didn't know what I meant by that comment. Is your husband lying to himself? Doubtful, more likely he is misleading you then he goes said himself.

[understand50]

Thank you. Besides the "blocking and tackling" (like transparency, being accountable for my time, careful not to do anything that would make him feel uncomfortable or suspicious, being totally open, allowing GPS on my phone, passwords, etc.), I don't exactly know what to do.

 

I've asked for couples therapy and he won't do it.

 

I've bought books for us to read (and hopefully implement the suggestions), and he always fails to read them. So nothing happens. He sometimes starts them and just falters as time goes on.

 

I do have a new book and was thinking about asking him to work through the exercises...as you said, a DIY kind of therapy.

 

I will give you, we have both lacked in energy. His world has been turned upside down due to my affair, and my world was turned upside down too. I don't know myself anymore. But I have tried. The only thing I know to do now is come up with another plan of action (like you mentioned), and hope that he will come along. I admire your ability to have logical conversations with your wife. That is one thing we struggle with mightily. It is a rare day that we can just sit and have a good talk, where anything is on the table, and his emotional reactivity is in check. It limits our ability to have real discussions.

 

Southern Sun,

 

Like anything else, these are learned skills. Having the affair, in many ways was just you giving in to it. Reconciliation, is learning how and what to do. This can and does take some time, but during the "bad" times you must stay the course, and work to make things a good as they can be at that time. Over time, things will get better.

 

I have never stop trying to figure out the woman I love, hence my monitor, "understand50". For you, if one things does not work try another. Rename and try the something. It is always better when Both are work towards a goal, but the energy does not always have to be 50% all the time.

 

Point is, do not give up hope, and keep working towards a better day, even when you do not feel like it.

 

I wish you luck....

[Southern Sun]

Maybe I can help you understand that dynamic a little. Your husband would love nothing more than to toss you aside and move on with his life without you, and maybe ( honestly most likely) he will.

 

I don't know why you speak like that, as if you know what he will do. You tend to see things from the filter of your own experience. I guess we all do. My H would truly have to become a totally different kind of person than he has been his entire life to do this. I am not saying this flippantly, nor am I banking on it. I'm just saying that I know him. He sticks with what he knows; he does not like change; he does not initiate big moves and does not make those kinds of decisions (normally). Maybe this experience would be enough to change him. I suppose if anything would, it would be this.

 

But he loves you, he is comfortable with the life you've built together. When he sees you in pain he wants to comfort and protect you. Then as everything plays in his mind he gets angry, angry at what you did, angry at how you can think so little of him, angry at how you could so willingly give yourself up to another man, which then turns to self hate. Hating himself for not being strong enough to throw you back like you did him, hating himself for being nice to you hating himself for loving you. That would a where his anger comes from that is why you see the inconsistency in his behavior.

 

This is true. He also hates himself for feeling like a helpless victim.

 

I'm guessing he was always very consistent proir to your affair and that maybe playing a huge part in your confusion....That man is gone, at least with you. Who he is or will become will be different than who he was. Harder, less trusting, unpredictable.

 

Yes, he was quite even-keeled before the affair. I really didn't know he could be this mercurial.

 

I tell WWs all the time to watch for a calm, when the questions stop coming, when the emotions stabilize, it's a sign of the end, a sign that his mind has become comfortable with what life would be like without you.

 

So for now emotions are good, it's kinda his way of showing he will said still engaged.

 

Small story to share, as I closed in on divorce my wife could sense something was off. She became very clingy, emotionally​ needy. She would ask alot will we be ok....Sure, everything is fine, it will work out the way it should. She just didn't know what I meant by that comment. Is your husband lying to himself? Doubtful, more likely he is misleading you then he goes said himself.

 

I think if he is misleading me it's BECAUSE he is lying to himself. Based on what I know about you, DKT, you and my H are very different people. I don't mean that in a good or bad way. He has never been the stoic type or been good at hiding his emotions; he wears everything on his sleeve. I just know my H pretty well and am quite sure he is not calm and cool and leading me on, while planning his escape behind the scenes.

[aileD]

Would your church be on board with something like a Retrouvaille retreat? I'll add the link below. It's faith based and it's not counseling. It's a couples weekend where you learn a different style of communication. You don't share with the group anything about your marriage or problems, they don't counsel you. They teach you things and send you back to your room to work on them alone with your spouse.

 

Maybe easing his way into therapy-type things might make him a little more comfortable....not focusing on the affair if it's too much of a trigger for him. Maybe he needs baby steps. There are many many faith based marriage programs. Is he open to them?

 

Marriage Help Program For Couples

[Southern Sun]

Would your church be on board with something like a Retrouvaille retreat? I'll add the link below. It's faith based and it's not counseling. It's a couples weekend where you learn a different style of communication. You don't share with the group anything about your marriage or problems, they don't counsel you. They teach you things and send you back to your room to work on them alone with your spouse.

 

Maybe easing his way into therapy-type things might make him a little more comfortable....not focusing on the affair if it's too much of a trigger for him. Maybe he needs baby steps. There are many many faith based marriage programs. Is he open to them?

 

Marriage Help Program For Couples

 

My church does not support any faith-based programs that don't come from inside our church. Yes, I know that sounds bad. They will talk to couples going through difficulties, but the message is the same: expect suffering; die to self; the man is the leader of the household; we all deserve nothing so be grateful for what you have.

 

If we did it, it would be done on the sly, so to speak. We would have to lie about where we were.

 

I'm afraid it would be next to impossible to get my husband to attend a retreat like this. We did go to one after my first D-Day (and the affair was still over at this point), and it just felt icky. Neither one of us left it feeling very good.

[Dub]

I have said that to him. He always says he wants us. He loves me, more than anything. No, he doesn't want me to leave.

 

Yes, I do think I am doing everything possible to make him feel safe. I don't know what else I could do, frankly! I literally have no opportunity to have an affair. What he wants is future certainty that he will never be hurt again.

 

Things are so much more complicated than just, "do I stay or do I go." I don't understand how one makes such a big decision, when there are so many moving parts. I really don't. It overwhelms me, all the things and people that would be affected by it. I have my children to consider, my family, my parents (who say I MUST make it work, no matter what), my church (who say I MUST make it work, no matter what), my friends (who are in the church). Everywhere I turn I am confronted with the message that what I did was WRONG and I will make it WORSE by not reconciling my relationship. I need to fix it, I need to make it right. Why can't I fix it? It would be best for everyone, right?

 

Yes, I am living in limbo. Why is that? I think that's why I look like sh ! t. I am living in a long-sustained limbo. You use the word "resent" about my attitude towards my H's drinking. I don't feel resentful. I am concerned. It's not good for him, it runs in his family, and it's bad for our relationship. Maybe I do resent that he is still hiding from our problems...something he has done for two decades.

 

I am absolutely confused.

 

So one of the main reasons you want to stay is because everyone important in your life wants you to to stay? If you look at all of your own posts from an objective viewpoint, it's obvious what you and your husband should do.