Ignore it or challenge?

[Jazz75]

My wife and I have been married for over 20 years. We met after my first wife died and I regret to say she was married at the time and we had an affair that went on to a divorce in her marriage (which admittedly, was not very happy at the time). She had 2 young children which we brought up together. She made sure they always had regular contact with their father though. I had 2 teenagers, and the "gelling" of the merged family which we hoped for, never really happened. I am ashamed to admit I love her 2 children (now young adults) more than my own. They have turned out to be lovely people, while mine are still damaged by their mother's death after years of alcoholism. 10 years into our marriage she had an affair with a co-worker. I found out about it and things were rocky for a time, but we have always been crazy about one another and we wanted to stay together. The emotional charge associated with the affair has long gone now, and I thought things were good in our relationship, despite my issues with ED due to my age (there are 12 years between us, and I am now in my 70s). Then I discovered she was having a quite intense email and FaceTime relationship with a guy she had known at school. Reading between the lines of the months of emails that i accidentally discovered, he lusted after her at school and still does. He was making suggestions that we meet him and his partner (now wife), but more worryingly, that he meet her alone somewhere. My wife travels extensively in her work, and he does too. He and his new wife seem to live separate lives, and he implies that they are not into emotional dependency on each other, and I would be very surprised if she knew anything about his contacts with my wife. Anyhow, I challenged my wife about the communications. She had initially mentioned that he had contacted her after finding her on LinkedIn, and she had occasionally mentioned to me that he had emailed her again, but she made light of it and implied she thought he had mental health issues, but gave no indication that the emails had continued for so long, with such frequency and with such intensity of content. There was no overtly sexual content but he did admit that she had been the love of his life. He sent her music and poetry with his emails and they had had long intense discussions online while she was both at home with me and overseas at work. I told her that I found the nature of their contact very threatening, that it disturbed me and made me feel anxious and insecure. She immediately agreed to break off contact and apologised to me. That was a year ago. Nothing has been mentioned since although he initially tried to contact her on a few occasions, and she confirmed to him that she did not want him to contact her again. I recently discovered she has re-established contact with him, emailing him and talking with him on FaceTime while overseas. She doesn't yet know that I know. Now I don't know where I go from here. She was annoyed the first time I found her emails and read them, and said she resented me invading her privacy and has made it quite clear she finds it unpleasant to be "policed" , as she puts it. I do not want to "police" her, but given the history I am now finding it hard to ignore it and not watch her closely, despite feeling guilty about doing it. Do I challenge her about it again, or do I ignore it and just keep an eye on things?

[startingagain15]

She's incapable of monogamy. You should have known that from the start. And you've been hit with it many times throughout your marriage it sounds like.

 

If you are okay with that and can turn a blind eye to it, then don't mention it. If not, I don't think anything is going to fix her need to have extra-marital relationships.

 

My current BF did the same thing. Started an affair with his x-wife while she was currently married. Wouldn't take anyone's advice on "if she'll cheat with you, she will cheat on you". He endured 17 years of marriage hell with her having affairs on him, him forgiving or turning a blind eye. She finally left him, and he was completely broken. I still don't really understand why he stayed through all that.

[Try]

I regret to say she was married at the time and we had an affair that went on to a divorce in her marriage

10 years into our marriage she had an affair with a co-worker.

Then I discovered she was having a quite intense email and FaceTime relationship with a guy she had known at school.

I recently discovered she has re-established contact with him, emailing him and talking with him on FaceTime while overseas.

She was annoyed the first time I found her emails and read them, and said she resented me invading her privacy and has made it quite clear she finds it unpleasant to be "policed" , as she puts it.

Beyond any doubt, your wife is a serial cheater, that when she gets caught cheating gets annoyed that you found her inappropriate emails, resents you invading her privacy and made it quite clear she finds it unpleasant to be "policed". First, since she is a serial cheater, there needs to be an understanding that you have a right to police when your gut tells you that she is cheating again; as a serial cheater she has no right to ask that you trust her or to resent you for not trusting her. Second, in a healthy marriage there should be no expectation of privacy with your spouse, other than when you are going to the bathroom. Third, issues of privacy are so unimportant when compared to cheating, that it is insulting to dare to bring it up when you are confronting her for cheating.

 

QUESTION: How does a cheater say "$crew you?"

ANSWER: They say "trust me".

Edited March 22, 2017 by Try

[NTV]

I would recommend focusing on trying to repair the relationship between you and your real kids.

[somanymistakes]

While these incidents are bad, if there's really only been these two problems in a more-than-twenty-year marriage, that's surprisingly little compared to a dedicated serial cheater. Not trying to downplay what she's doing! She has cheated, and is emotionally cheating at the moment, but I think people need to look at it on context before scolding you that you should have known better. You've had plenty of good years together.

 

I think you know, though, that your wife has a tendency to reach out to others in moments of weakness. That's likely to continue being a problem, especially now that you're older and somewhat less able to keep up with her. You can't just ignore this or it will continue to develop. You do need to talk to her about it.

 

You already know that there's probably going to be an argument coming, where she protests about being spied on. She's not wrong, you are spying on her. But you're not wrong either, it needed to be done. You may need to practice some of your responses first so that you're not too upset to think clearly in the moment. DON'T start in with 'married people should have no expectation of privacy', that's a very negative statement that will get you both into defensive bunker mode and guarantee that you'll both come out hurt. Positive statements instead, emphasize that married couples need to share their feelings and work on their problems together.

[Jazz75]

You're right. I know she has had a tendency at times to get into inappropriate relationships, and twice in 25 year of being together is not too bad, I suppose. For a woman with such a huge dose of emotional intelligence as she does, she shows a remarkable inability to put herself in my place in respect of her inappropriate relationship however. I don't see her as a serial cheater however. She is loving, kind, outgoing, asociable and genuinely interested in other people and their thoughts and opinions. She was working as a journalist when I met her, and she was a good one! haven't been perfect in our marriage either, although I have not had any affairs and have never been unkind to her. She has caught me out on a few occasions looking at online porn, even knowing she didn't like it. I don't do it now, but I can understand why she might feel a bit sceptical about my denials after all these years. I have not been a great communicator either, although I have been a lot better for knowing her. I love her dearly, and we do, on the whole, have a happy & fulfilling marriage. I know she loves me too. I just wish this sort of issue hadn't cropped up again.I know there is another unpleasant time coming up.I just don't want to get into a bout of mutual recriminations!

Edited March 22, 2017 by Jazz75
Addition

[Try]

I know she has had a tendency at times to get into inappropriate relationships, and twice in 25 year of being together is not too bad, I suppose.

You know of 4 times that she has cheated in the last 25 years. With you on her prior husband, 10 years into the marriage, one year ago, and the guy from a year ago again currently. Since statistically most cheating goes undetected by the spouse, odds are she has cheated other times that you are not aware of. That being said you saying that any amount of multiple cheating is "not too bad" is why she knows that she can cheat on you with full confidence that all will be forgiven by you.

[road]

Ignore nor challenge for it is time to divorce her. WW is a

serial cheater.

 

 

They will cheat with you they will cheat on you.

 

 

Last, now you know why her marriage was dying when she

met you. Ask WW tonight how many times she cheated on BH 1.

 

 

Though before you do that ask her ex BH how many times she

cheated on him.

[vanhalenfan]

Some people are just serial cheaters, or just cannot mold themselves into the concept of monogamy. I believe your wife may be one of these people. Your relationship with her even blossomed out of an affair - not a good sign nor a good way to start a relationship. I'm sorry this is happening...I know the pain of being a betrayed spouse. I want to say to ignore it and keep an eye on things, but I know that is very difficult. It was for me, anyway. Given her past history....AND the very fact she promised to cut contact with this man, I say just confront now. She's already broken her promise.

[aileD]

The saying "if they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you" exists for a reason.

 

Can you accept this? Because it's not going to change.

[Jazz75]

Thanks for all your comments. It's been really helpful. I'm still undecided though. I am going to talk to her about it. I have to at least do that. The difficulty always about forums like this is that no one who comments on a post really knows the people mentioned in the post, and that's important - otherwise you are bound to comment mainly on the basis of your own opinion or experience.

[DDTA]

The difficulty always about forums like this is that no one who comments on a post really knows the people mentioned in the post, and that's important - otherwise you are bound to comment mainly on the basis of your own opinion or experience.

 

I agree that people involved in affairs are "unique" to a certain extent but the human behavior with how a wayward and betrayed spouse reacts to the situation is much more common than you think. So much so that you would think it was scripted. IMO, I think your rationalization you developed to be party to an affair in the past is what is clouding your ability to see the real person that your 2nd wife truly is, as well as who you really are to yourself and your biological kids. I think your own kids couldn't accept and adjust to your rationalization of marrying your affair partner. Look up cognitive dissonance and you will understand a little more. Have your kids ever attend therapy after their mother passed away? There may be unresolved issues there as well.

 

we had an affair that went on to a divorce in her marriage (which admittedly, was not very happy at the time)

 

This is one of, if not the #1, the most common back stories given by a wayward spouse and accepted by an affair partner. It is what makes the participants in an affair feel justified in conducting and continuing an affair. IMO I think her first husband found out and kicked her to the curb and she had you as plan B for a safe landing...until she could conduct another agfair. I know this all sounds like a 2x4 with what I post, and no I didn't experience a situation such as yours but I have two friends who did and both of them had very similar outlines of beginning to end such as yours. Both had cheating wives who lied about their pasts and having cheated on their first husbands before. Both cheating wives were caught cheating on my friends. Both friends talked the first husbands and corroborated on the truth. One friend didn't know he was the affair partner that the first husbands wife was cheating with. He didn't know the whole time he was the OM and the first husband didn't know the 2nd husband was the affair partner as well. Yes, I know these are other people's experiences and the lessons don't apply to you but you read enough of other people's experiences and you will see the patterns of human cheating behavior yourself in your own 2nd wife and possibly in you as well from the past.

[aileD]

Thanks for all your comments. It's been really helpful. I'm still undecided though. I am going to talk to her about it. I have to at least do that. The difficulty always about forums like this is that no one who comments on a post really knows the people mentioned in the post, and that's important - otherwise you are bound to comment mainly on the basis of your own opinion or experience.

 

 

Yeah but if you read a bunch of posts you'll see there are patterns and most people have the same or very similar situations.

[Try]

Thanks for all your comments. It's been really helpful. I'm still undecided though. I am going to talk to her about it. I have to at least do that. The difficulty always about forums like this is that no one who comments on a post really knows the people mentioned in the post, and that's important - otherwise you are bound to comment mainly on the basis of your own opinion or experience.

First, this board is actually biased in favor of reconciliation, since those that quickly decide that cheating is a deal breaker, do not feel the need to post. Second, as for your comment that "no one who comments on a post really knows the people mentioned", this comment ignores the reality that facts alone can allow people to draw many conclusions; for instance, if they cheat multiple times, they are serial cheaters that statistically will cheat again. Third, if you read multiple threads in the infidelity section of this site, you will see patterns that the vast majority of cheaters have in common; it is almost scary how cheaters follow what seems like a cheaters script. Fourth, if you read multiple threads in the infidelity section of this site, you will see patterns that the vast majority of those that are cheated-on have in common; it is almost scary how the cheated-on follow what seems like a cheated-on script. Fifth, the vast majority of those that are cheated-on think that their cheaters and stories are unique when they are not.

[dichotomy]

I recently discovered she has re-established contact with him, emailing him and talking with him on FaceTime while overseas. She doesn't yet know that I know. Now I don't know where I go from here. She was annoyed the first time I found her emails and read them, and said she resented me invading her privacy and has made it quite clear she finds it unpleasant to be "policed" , as she puts it. I do not want to "police" her, but given the history I am now finding it hard to ignore it and not watch her closely, despite feeling guilty about doing it. Do I challenge her about it again, or do I ignore it and just keep an eye on things?

 

My advice has been given again and again here - its rarely followed. Keep spying till you have a heap of real dirt. I mean sexual talk, disrespectful to you, actual plans to meet.

 

If your latest monitoring has not provided much more than pleasant reminising with her old school mate - keep watching her - see how far she goes out on a leash.

 

Confronting someone with mild or weak communications is pointless. They will deny and blame you for spying. Actually they will attack you for spying even when you have the pile of dirt.

 

If or when you collect a clear history of video chats and texts that constitute cheating - divorce her. Unless there is some reason you can't or wont.

 

Why stay married ? She has cheated before and she is what - about 60 years old now ? WTF ? Whats a 60 year old doing trolling for sex with old flames? or maybe just fantasy remembering. Stupid.

[somanymistakes]

Third, if you read multiple threads in the infidelity section of this site, you will see patterns that the vast majority of cheaters have in common; it is almost scary how cheaters follow what seems like a cheaters script. Fourth, if you read multiple threads in the infidelity section of this site, you will see patterns that the vast majority of those that are cheated-on have in common; it is almost scary how the cheated-on follow what seems like a cheated-on script.

 

It's almost scary partly because of how often other commenters insist on fitting the posted story into that script whether it fits it or not. If the OP's story is different in any way, people will tell them they're wrong and too crazy to know what's true. It's our own little form of gaslighting.

[Try]

It's almost scary partly because of how often other commenters insist on fitting the posted story into that script whether it fits it or not. If the OP's story is different in any way, people will tell them they're wrong and too crazy to know what's true. It's our own little form of gaslighting.

You left out the part where I say that "Fifth, the vast majority of those that are cheated-on think that their cheaters and stories are unique when they are not." Although it is of course true that not all stories follow a script, the vast majority do, and OPs would do better if they went with the odds and seriously considered trying to see if the scripts fit their situation before discarding them out of hand.

 

Read the beginning of a few one year or older threads in the infidelity section where the OP assures us in their early posts that it has not gone physical when the regular posters say that it probably has. Then read at the end of these threads to see how the majority of the OPs have learned that it did in fact go physical. Same can be said where the OPs at first insist that it was just kissing, or only happened one time.

[somanymistakes]

Oh I definitely agree with that! It's important to look at the patterns, and most of the time things are going to play out in a predictable fashion.

[Mr. Lucky]

It's almost scary partly because of how often other commenters insist on fitting the posted story into that script whether it fits it or not.

 

Let's see:

 

- Met and cheated

 

- Caught her cheating

 

- Caught her cheating again

 

I'd say it fits...

 

Mr. Lucky

[DDTA]

If for a week the Powerball lottery odds would match the odds that many of these stories describing cheating symptoms would actually mean their spouse was indeed actually cheating, we would ALL be buying tickets for the next drawing. Even the most skeptical among us.

[Jazz75]

Well, I challenged her about it, and after a brief burst of anger and threats (which she later admitted were due to her own guilt and embarrassment), she admitted it and apologised. She told me that he had contacted her again at the beginning of the year and she had replied and it went on from there. She admitted she felt very guilty about replying, and knew that I would be angry if I found out, and for that reason did not tell me. I've seen the content of what communication remained undeleted and while the tone between them was affectionate as in the previous spell of contact between them, there was nothing suspect or sexual. My wife mentioned me to him only in loving and glowing terms, and gave him no reason to think there could ever be anything more than friendship between them.

She has now been quite open in describing their previous relationship almost 30 years ago while she was at school, university and during her first marriage. They lived in the same small community and she had been friendly with his sister.She didn't rate him and wasn't ever attracted to him, but she knew that he definitely was very attracted to her and wanted to impress her and build a relationship - but she wasn't interested, although she did agree to go out to dinner with him on a couple of occasions - but just dinner! She was therefore very surprised when he had initially got in touch with her. She also admitted that, although she had never felt anything for him, she felt flattered by his attention and admitted that that was an indication of her own personal insecurities. She admits she was foolish to let the contact start up again and readily promised not to respond in future. She also composed with me an email that I have sent to him explaining how we feel about the situation and telling him in no uncertain terms that his persistent attempts to continue an online conversation with my wife were unwelcome, and asking him to refrain from any future attempts.

I feel happier now that we have talked about this. I realise that I probably overreacted and assumed that there was more to it than there seems to have been in reality. I still don't feel though, that it is ever right for a man or woman to carry on a secret or semi-secret correspondence with a married person of the opposite sex, even if they knew each other from the past. I still think my wife made, at the very least, an error of judgement in continuing the correspondence with him while keeping me largely in the dark about it. Even though there was no indication that there was a developing relationship between them (at least not on her side), he had admitted to her that it had been a source of disappointment in his life that he had not been able to make a life with her. She should have taken that as a warning that he was going to press his suit with her, and possibly endanger her marriage, rather than being flattered by it.

It also raises the question of what I do now. My wife still feels that it was wrong of me to invade her privacy as I had, but I want to protect my marriage. She also says on the other hand that I can look at her iPhone, iPad & MacBook anytime I want - but if I do, and find something (as I did) it then becomes an invasion of privacy. How do you reconcile the two? I don't want to spy on or police my wife. I want to trust her.

[lucy_in_disguise]

I don't think she is going to stop having inappropriate relationships with men. You can attempt to monitor her all you want, but it is part of who she is and how you met. She enjoys the flattery and emotional connection, and it's part of her lifestyle of being on the road. I think getting older is only going to make this more tempting- these connections allow her to reminisce about the past and feel young again.

 

The question is- can you live with it? What are your boundaries? Do you believe these relationships involve, or have a risk of involving, sexual contact? Or is she in it for the ego boost? And does it even matter?

 

If she's done this all her life and you've managed to maintain a strong connection and relatively happy marriage despite that- can you think outside the box and accept this about her?

[Jazz75]

I've thought about this. I suspect that most people who engage in extramarital relationships probably don't start out with the aim of have a sexual relationship, but that once started it often ends up as one, given time. It's why I felt this one that I found out about was potentially dangerous. There has definitely been no physical, leave alone sexual, contact in this latest one. Her first affair was already sexual by the time I found out about it, but it didn't start out that way. It started out with her being in a difficult and stressful job and not wanting to relive the horror of the day by telling me all about it when she got home - then finding someone at work who was happy to listen, sympathise and lend support - and it grew from there. To the best of my knowledge she has not had another sexual affair, and her work life since then until the last year or 18 months, although it involved travel, did not give her the opportunities it now does, to engage so readily in activities I know nothing about. So, I am fairly sure that this recent "correspondence" was the first episode of "straying" since the first.

You may be right that it is part of who she is. I think this latest was for the ego-boost only. She has always had a problem with low self esteem, and she is aware herself she is susceptible to flattery and attention (who isn't?). I don't think she goes out looking for flattery though, and her self esteem has much improved as she has become more established and more expert in her chosen field. She knows her worth to her employers now, and is much more self-confident.

Although my natural instinct is still to trust my wife, foolish as that may seem, my alertness has been raised by this episode. I will probably be much more alert for some time, but will, as before, eventually relax and largely forget about it. That doesn't mean that I could accommodate further episodes like this (or worse). I could not bear to be in a marriage where there was always some secret 3rd person in the shadows. If it were to become a regular event, I would have to leave the marriage, painful as that might be.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Jazz75
additional facts

[kgcolonel]

Well, I challenged her about it, and after a brief burst of anger and threats (which she later admitted were due to her own guilt and embarrassment), she admitted it and apologised. She told me that he had contacted her again at the beginning of the year and she had replied and it went on from there. She admitted she felt very guilty about replying, and knew that I would be angry if I found out, and for that reason did not tell me. I've seen the content of what communication remained undeleted and while the tone between them was affectionate as in the previous spell of contact between them, there was nothing suspect or sexual. My wife mentioned me to him only in loving and glowing terms, and gave him no reason to think there could ever be anything more than friendship between them.

She has now been quite open in describing their previous relationship almost 30 years ago while she was at school, university and during her first marriage. They lived in the same small community and she had been friendly with his sister.She didn't rate him and wasn't ever attracted to him, but she knew that he definitely was very attracted to her and wanted to impress her and build a relationship - but she wasn't interested, although she did agree to go out to dinner with him on a couple of occasions - but just dinner! She was therefore very surprised when he had initially got in touch with her. She also admitted that, although she had never felt anything for him, she felt flattered by his attention and admitted that that was an indication of her own personal insecurities. She admits she was foolish to let the contact start up again and readily promised not to respond in future. She also composed with me an email that I have sent to him explaining how we feel about the situation and telling him in no uncertain terms that his persistent attempts to continue an online conversation with my wife were unwelcome, and asking him to refrain from any future attempts.

I feel happier now that we have talked about this. I realise that I probably overreacted and assumed that there was more to it than there seems to have been in reality. I still don't feel though, that it is ever right for a man or woman to carry on a secret or semi-secret correspondence with a married person of the opposite sex, even if they knew each other from the past. I still think my wife made, at the very least, an error of judgement in continuing the correspondence with him while keeping me largely in the dark about it. Even though there was no indication that there was a developing relationship between them (at least not on her side), he had admitted to her that it had been a source of disappointment in his life that he had not been able to make a life with her. She should have taken that as a warning that he was going to press his suit with her, and possibly endanger her marriage, rather than being flattered by it.

It also raises the question of what I do now. My wife still feels that it was wrong of me to invade her privacy as I had, but I want to protect my marriage. She also says on the other hand that I can look at her iPhone, iPad & MacBook anytime I want - but if I do, and find something (as I did) it then becomes an invasion of privacy. How do you reconcile the two? I don't want to spy on or police my wife. I want to trust her.

 

 

This one is clear, at least to me. If you find something that is outside the boundaries of the M, I would personally respond with "invasion of privacy is the least of your worries". She should be thinking in terms of where will she be residing after you find this evidence of betrayal. She in fact is telling you that she is not committed to staying true to her vows in the warning, if you catch me, I'll turn the script.

 

This my friend is something to discuss as it appears that either she can't or refuses to control her actions.

[Jazz75]

Thanks for that. I'm keeping a watching brief for now. I have also blocked his email address and telephone numbers on her Apple appliances, so she should not get any phone calls, text messages, WhatsApp messages or FaceTime requests from him if he tries to persist in contacting her. She could of course, unblock them, but she is not very good with electronics, and I don't think she would either think of doing it or be able to without asking someone for help.That is, of course, assuming that she doesn't, as she insists, want to remain in contact with him. Of course, if she initiates the contact then that's a different matter.