Sharing, and expectations.

[BMI03]

This is just a vent more than anything else, though advice is of course appreciated. Sorry for the length...just need an outlet.

 

I love my fiancé. And I feel very loved by her. We had a discussion last night that concerns me.

 

She is a strong independent woman. That is one of the things I like about her. She grew up in a household made up of her and her single mom, her grandmother, her widowed aunt, and her aunt’s older daughter. The youngest in a family of five who had to learn to speak her mind and push her agenda if she wanted to get things done. This upbringing had a double edge. It allowed her to grow as an individual, learning to rely on herself, and learning her value as an individual. She has a strong front. But, in moments of sharing, there is a hole that she feels having not had any strong male influence on her life, and there is a lack of observational experience of how a healthy relationship works. We are in our 30s, and she has had four longer term multi-year relationships in that time so she has certainly not without firsthand experience in relationships, but in her own words she has always still been an individual within these relationships. She described herself as always having an attitude of “I’m going to do this….come along if you want, or don’t….up to you.”. My understanding is that all of these relationships ended by the choice of her partners, or at least through trust issues that were brought up by her partners leading to a break up. I speculate that part of this was her inability to totally share wide open with them, but it has also in turn given her what she describes in as trust issues and feelings of abandonment.

 

She describes our relationship as the first time she has ever felt different from that, in that she desires incorporating someone else into her plans. It’s no longer about what she wants to do and someone else deciding to be along for the ride, but she is making/changing plans to allow for an ‘us’. I see this in actions as well as words. Sometimes she laments those changes when things get tough but she sticks by them and tells me her trust is restored.

 

Learning to be open with someone was not easy or immediate for her. It required her to be trusting of my feelings, and trusting of the idea that I wouldn’t be leaving at any signs of trouble, but would work through things with her. It required a true leap of faith on her part, and so I am proud of her for having done so. In earlier times when she wasn’t yet there (for legit reasons….I was on the tail end of finalizing a divorce) we had some trust issues. She had been communicating with her most recent boyfriend of a couple of years back (as she still did with all old boyfriends and was open about and I was aware of), however this one time it involved some “I miss you”s and hiding it. This particular ex was her longest (6-7 years) and most recent relationship, and someone who physically assaulted her on three occasions. Something I believe she still feels a level of guilt and ownership over because she was unfaithful to him in the end and it ended poorly. We discussed it…she explained that she missed the nostalgia of the relationship with him sometimes and because she felt it, she felt a need to say it (as I mentioned, she does have a speak her mind approach to life)….and that she didn’t even really see it as wrong until I questioned it, but in retrospect she did. She apologized for how it hurt me, went NC with him, and we moved forward. My trust in her of course shaken a bit, but not beyond ability to move forward and allow for it to heal with her help.

 

Last night we discussed a smallish career decision she made to do one thing, but communicate differently to her aunt (her aunt is her closest ‘parent’ figure at the moment and helps her with some career based decisions). I asked her for some clarity around why she couldn’t share the truth with her aunt. It came down to the dynamics of the relationship, the pressures she feels, etc. Anyhow, not really relevant to this rant, but she took my questions for clarity more as a challenge to her decision to do so (perhaps fair of her to see it as challenging her decision). Her reaction to things she doesn’t like is quite predictable. It’s an initial defensive and hot headed reaction, followed by some more logical thought on her own and then usually an apology for her initial reaction and a calmer conversation to understand each other. In this case, her initial reaction included telling me that this is a decision by her alone, that impacts her alone, and next time she will just tell me the same lie she is telling her aunt so that I don’t get so worked up in asking about details; and that I need to learn to be her partner in things, not her challenger. An attempt at some comic relief on her side to lower the tension but “If I were to kill someone, I need someone to help me hide the body, not someone to ask me why I did it and tell me it was wrong.”.

 

We ended the conversation and went our separate ways a while. I was mad. This hit a nerve with me because trust was a topic that became an issue once before. Perhaps I am a bit oversensitive to it, or perhaps not sharing enough about how that is still a relivant topic to me when things such as this come up. When we came back I explained to her that my trust in her was shaken once, and we have worked to restore that. We are getting married and I need to know I can trust her words. If there is one person in this world the two of us should be able to trust it has to be each other.

 

Her reaction went from an initial understanding of why I would feel that way. Then it jumped to a place of suggesting that this trust issue is behind us and that it doesn’t feel nice to have it brought up again. That I need to make a decision to move on from it or not. She suggested that if my idea of marriage was that we were going to share every little thing, than that’s MY expectation and image of marriage and that perhaps I only had my view in mind when I proposed….that I need to do some thinking as to whether I proposed because I loved her or because I thought we would share everything with each other.

 

This didn’t make me any less concerned. So today, I am left thinking about whether or not my view of marriage is atypical or reasonable. In fact the things I mentioned about openness and honesty are not even standards for marriage in my opinion but standards for even a serious relationship. Am I going to get that from her? Am I going to be left wondering if I am getting the truth sometimes? Or is this just her hot headed initial response? She has told me before to be patient with her….that she hasn’t had a relationship this close to someone before to really feel like one with them vs. and individual….that it is new and scary and that she sees the value in it, but it’s not intuitive to her. And she’s right….she is learning and has come an extremely long way, not just in words but in actions too.

 

I know the standard advice here that I would give to myself is that honesty is the bedrock of any relationship, and if I can't get that here, then moving on is my other option. Take it or leave it. I don't disagree with that, but, I also feel a need to consider the progress I have saw and the honest effort to grow with this, as have I by a great deal. This relationship has allowed the two of us to learn more about ourselves than I ever could have imagined over such a short period of time. We put ourselves under a microscope to analyse why we do what we do and it has been an incredible self study of ourselves. I see extreme value in that continuing and don't want to discount that. I am willing to do the hard work to make a relationsip work, and want to feel that there is progress to be made...my feelings on that were just shook up a bit last night.

 

Anyway, just a vent. I don’t know where to go from here. Worried about what I am walking into and if my expectations are going to be met, but also in love with a woman who I have seen come great lengths

[somanymistakes]

In this case, her initial reaction included telling me that this is a decision by her alone, that impacts her alone, and next time she will just tell me the same lie she is telling her aunt so that I don’t get so worked up in asking about details; and that I need to learn to be her partner in things, not her challenger. An attempt at some comic relief on her side to lower the tension but “If I were to kill someone, I need someone to help me hide the body, not someone to ask me why I did it and tell me it was wrong.”.

 

This is the part that jumps out at me the most.

 

First off, reassurance: there is nothing wrong with you wanting to know why she did something. As partners, you should share things, and it's important for you to understand each other. You can't be help and support for each other if you don't understand what each of you are doing and why.

 

However, were you asking her why or were you scolding her for it? You said yourself that it was "perhaps fair" for her to feel that she was being "challenged" for her decision.

 

Your fiancee does not come from a place of trust with regards to men. Her issues are different from mine so this is not speaking for her, but I know many people that react very badly to what they perceive as "men yelling at them" for things they've already done that can't be changed. They get super-defensive and scared and lash out to drive away what they see as an attack. I don't think her problems are quite the same, I'm guessing that with her it's less fear and more resentment, a frustrated sense of being nagged at or second-guessed? There are personality types that are open to discussion on a subject before the choice is made but are really bothered by being nagged about it afterwards because they feel like it's an attempt at undermining them, chipping away at their self-belief for no good reason.

 

But anyway, coming back to the point, what do you want from her? Do you want her to tell you the truth about her thoughts and feelings and explain to you about the decisions she makes? Do you want her to never make any decisions without having gotten your input first? Do you want her to never make any decisions without having gotten your input and agreement? Is it important to you to be able to say "That was wrong and you shouldn't have done it" after she makes a decision?

 

I'm not saying any of those things are right or wrong, just trying to work out where you stand.

 

Honesty is important in a relationship, but she may not be totally sure what you expect honesty to be.

[BMI03]

This is the part that jumps out at me the most.

 

First off, reassurance: there is nothing wrong with you wanting to know why she did something. As partners, you should share things, and it's important for you to understand each other. You can't be help and support for each other if you don't understand what each of you are doing and why.

 

However, were you asking her why or were you scolding her for it? You said yourself that it was "perhaps fair" for her to feel that she was being "challenged" for her decision.

 

Your fiancee does not come from a place of trust with regards to men. Her issues are different from mine so this is not speaking for her, but I know many people that react very badly to what they perceive as "men yelling at them" for things they've already done that can't be changed. They get super-defensive and scared and lash out to drive away what they see as an attack. I don't think her problems are quite the same, I'm guessing that with her it's less fear and more resentment, a frustrated sense of being nagged at or second-guessed? There are personality types that are open to discussion on a subject before the choice is made but are really bothered by being nagged about it afterwards because they feel like it's an attempt at undermining them, chipping away at their self-belief for no good reason.

 

But anyway, coming back to the point, what do you want from her? Do you want her to tell you the truth about her thoughts and feelings and explain to you about the decisions she makes? Do you want her to never make any decisions without having gotten your input first? Do you want her to never make any decisions without having gotten your input and agreement? Is it important to you to be able to say "That was wrong and you shouldn't have done it" after she makes a decision?

 

I'm not saying any of those things are right or wrong, just trying to work out where you stand.

 

Honesty is important in a relationship, but she may not be totally sure what you expect honesty to be.

 

Thank you for your response. That's good input.

 

I didn't tell her she was wrong, but I did express confusion at understanding her actions, which quite likely could come across as challenging her decision.

 

The quick summary is that her aunt had an opinion on something my fiancé should do career wise. My fiancé spent the last month trying to convince her aunt it was a bad idea. In an attempt to please her aunt, since she was not able to convince her, my fiancé decided that she would tell her aunt she was doing this thing, but we would fly somewhere and stay in a hotel where it takes place but not do this event but say we did. She is mad at herself for letting her aunt influence her decisions this much, but to her it's not worth the trouble of her aunt being armed with an "I told you so". So now we planned flights and hotels to go to this location. It will be fun to have the trip none the less. But yesterday my fiancé called angry with herself and her aunt because her aunt, now with the trip two days out, said "I thought about it and perhaps you should NOT do that event.". My response was "great, you can now do what you want to do without the hassle of her making you eat it later.". When she said no, we are still traveling and saying we did it, I was confused why she wouldn't take this 'out' from her aunt. So I asked questions about perhaps my not understanding the overall plan she had, or the real reasons that may be deeper than the surface level I understood. It became a conversation about deeper nuances to the relationship with her aunt (she explained that her aunt's change of heart was more a case of 'baiting' her), and subtle accusation directed toward me about whether my motivation in asking was because i didn't want to travel with her, which she was excited to do. Which led to her feelings that this was too much explaining and her comment that next time she will just tell me the lie too. I know it was said out of frustration and anger at herself for letting her aunt manipulate her decisions so much, but it still hit a sore spot with me.

 

In terms of what I want from her, I want openness and honesty. I want to be able to rely on what she says as truth and not have to second guess whether I am receiving a watered down version of the truth to control my reaction to events. I want to be able to ask questions that seek to understand without it being perceived as unnecessary overhead. Her concept about a decision by her that only impacts her isn't the case....we are a couple, and a trip for two we are now taking is not relevant to her alone. She herself would say that she has an issue whereby when she gives someone advice or input and they don't take it she feels personally attacked and at odds with that person. She knows this is wrong. I think when she is given advice or feels her decision/opinion is questioned, she feels equally at odds with someone and gets combative. It may feed why she feels such a sense of obligation to follow her aunt's advice as her aunt is similar.

 

So ya...I want honesty, openness, and freedom to discuss and debate decisions that I feel impact us both.