Want to believe in God but can't

[Southern Sun]

Humans have an innate yearning for spirituality. If we existed 150,000 years ago, then we had a religion. Maybe the worshiped sticks and rocks, or maybe it was Judaism. No written record exists. However, we do have proof that oral traditions can be extremely accurate.

 

I've read the New Testament several times. Jesus literally states that some people are chosen and that nothing can take their faith away. Yes in the book of James it is said that faith without works is dead, but those works come from faith, not the other way around.

 

My point being that there are those who have a yearning for God, but cannot have faith because they are not chosen. I'm likely one of those.

 

150,000 years ago, we were hunter/gatherers and living in tribal societies. We have evidence of this. This is all but gone but there are still some hunter/gatherer tribes left on this planet today. They generally worship their ancestors, believe in ghosts, good and bad spirits. It has little to do with religion as we know it. I suppose it is a form of spirituality. But having them right now, still doing what they do, is very educational for us as to what we likely ALL did many years ago. In addition to the artifacts that we've discovered.

 

It was only about 10,000 years ago, when we moved from a primarily hunter/gatherer existence to a farming mode of subsistence that suddenly, organized religion seemed to emerge and with it, the idea of "one god." Even then, as someone else noted above me, the Jews maintained the idea, as evidenced all throughout the OT, that there seemed to be other gods, but that God was the best of them all. It evolved as time went on to what we read in the NT.

 

We NEEDED this new form of religion. We suddenly all lived together in groups, large groups...not just tribes. Not everyone was catching and harvesting their own food. We had a few that we doing it for all. We had classes. We had orders. We NEEDED order. People also needed a way to explain their pain and suffering and the troubles that befell them. That's always been the case, but our brains are changing and have been over the years. There is a theory right now that we are in the midst of evolving into a new species. We have never before taken in so much information on a daily basis.

 

I have not decided what I believe, but it just doesn't sit right with me that there is supposedly ONE path to God and "heaven" and yet...it has done nothing but change for us humans for hundreds of thousands of years. Of course...if you literally believe in the Bible, we haven't existed that long, and even if we did, Jesus came to forgive everyone of their past sins anyway.

[Justanaverageguy]

I've read the New Testament several times. Jesus literally states that some people are chosen and that nothing can take their faith away. Yes in the book of James it is said that faith without works is dead, but those works come from faith, not the other way around.

 

My point being that there are those who have a yearning for God, but cannot have faith because they are not chosen. I'm likely one of those.

 

Its true that the bible - and Jesus in particular - says he chooses who he reveals himself to. But ..... the desiring to know god (which you have specifically expressed) is also stated as being an indication you have been chosen - or at least called. That desire would not arise - unless he decided to draw you to him. EG:

 

- “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day”

- "So Jesus added, 'Because of this I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has allowed him to come'

- “Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away”

- "You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit — fruit that will remain"

- "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me."

 

My interpretation is that the spirit\god searches a mans heart. Sees what his motivations are and his general approach to life is. He knows this essentially from birth - he recognizes we are all sinners and all fall short of perfection. None of us are truly worthy or able to boast about being genuinely good people on our own - but he still sees something worthwhile. He exposes them to the teachings by awakening the desire for god - perhaps birthing them into family's that believe and follow god or leads them to it in some other way.

 

Essentially the fact you are desiring god - would indicate you are on the right path.

[Cobra_X]

150,000 years ago, we were hunter/gatherers and living in tribal societies. We have evidence of this. This is all but gone but there are still some hunter/gatherer tribes left on this planet today. They generally worship their ancestors, believe in ghosts, good and bad spirits. It has little to do with religion as we know it. I suppose it is a form of spirituality. But having them right now, still doing what they do, is very educational for us as to what we likely ALL did many years ago. In addition to the artifacts that we've discovered.

It was only about 10,000 years ago, when we moved from a primarily hunter/gatherer existence to a farming mode of subsistence that suddenly, organized religion seemed to emerge and with it, the idea of "one god." Even then, as someone else noted above me, the Jews maintained the idea, as evidenced all throughout the OT, that there seemed to be other gods, but that God was the best of them all. It evolved as time went on to what we read in the NT.

We NEEDED this new form of religion. We suddenly all lived together in groups, large groups...not just tribes. Not everyone was catching and harvesting their own food. We had a few that we doing it for all. We had classes. We had orders. We NEEDED order. People also needed a way to explain their pain and suffering and the troubles that befell them. That's always been the case, but our brains are changing and have been over the years. There is a theory right now that we are in the midst of evolving into a new species. We have never before taken in so much information on a daily basis.

I have not decided what I believe, but it just doesn't sit right with me that there is supposedly ONE path to God and "heaven" and yet...it has done nothing but change for us humans for hundreds of thousands of years. Of course...if you literally believe in the Bible, we haven't existed that long, and even if we did, Jesus came to forgive everyone of their past sins anyway.

 

No, you are mixing up completely different species. Homo Erectus and Homo Habilus are not Homo Sapiens. They are similar in some ways, but have large morphological differences, especially in the cranial area. In terms of intelligence they may have been closer to chimps than Modern Humans.

 

Homo Sapiens has been around for approximately 50,000 years. The number is not quite certain, and there is currently no fossil record link between Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus. So, it's impossible to say when Homo Sapiens first appeared... or even how they appeared. Could have crash landed from a space ship and we can't prove yes or no.

 

With that said... Tribal cultures that exist in isolation and have been studied by Anthropologists would be most indicative of what things were like 50,000 years ago, but we cannot make the assumption that they have not changed over the last 50 millennium.

 

Regarding the Old Testament view of other Gods, you have to understand that Biblical language was never meant to be read like a textbook. This is a modern Western failure. The best example is the creation story of Genesis. Many people actually think that God is trying to provide a science text on how he built the earth... which is ridiculous to even consider. Every other part of the Bible uses allegory and symbols... but people stop and think this part is like science. If you actually read the creation story the core idea is showing the reader the Order of the Universe. Day rules over Night, Man rules over Animals, God rules over everything... ect. It also has two simultaneous creation stories set right next to each other... one focusing on natural order, and the other focused squarely on Humans.

 

So, when you hear Old Testament references to other gods, it should be viewed like Christians today talking about other religions or the God of Cable TV... ect. It doesn't mean that they even acknowledge the existence of these false gods, it just means they recognize other people worshiping them.

[Cobra_X]

Its true that the bible - and Jesus in particular - says he chooses who he reveals himself to. But ..... the desiring to know god (which you have specifically expressed) is also stated as being an indication you have been chosen - or at least called. That desire would not arise - unless he decided to draw you to him. EG:

- “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day”

- "So Jesus added, 'Because of this I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has allowed him to come'

- “Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away”

- "You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit — fruit that will remain"

- "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me."

My interpretation is that the spirit\god searches a mans heart. Sees what his motivations are and his general approach to life is. He knows this essentially from birth - he recognizes we are all sinners and all fall short of perfection. None of us are truly worthy or able to boast about being genuinely good people on our own - but he still sees something worthwhile. He exposes them to the teachings by awakening the desire for god - perhaps birthing them into family's that believe and follow god or leads them to it in some other way.

Essentially the fact you are desiring god - would indicate you are on the right path.

 

Two points of Scripture you may find interesting.

 

- "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

 

- For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?

 

I don't think it would be an accurate depiction to say God searches our hearts and chooses us. A better way to look at this is to say God formed our hearts to either love him or not.

 

I would desperately like to believe in God. However... the faith itself seems to slip in and out. I find that I can't cast aside the things God considers sinful. I have also had my greatest prayers answered... and still faith does not flow from that. I sometimes feel lost because of it.

[Justanaverageguy]

- "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.

 

- For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?

 

I don't think it would be an accurate depiction to say God searches our hearts and chooses us. A better way to look at this is to say God formed our hearts to either love him or not.

 

I would desperately like to believe in God. However... the faith itself seems to slip in and out. I find that I can't cast aside the things God considers sinful. I have also had my greatest prayers answered... and still faith does not flow from that. I sometimes feel lost because of it.

 

So one of the interesting things about scripture is there is a lot of blank space - a lot of details that are left unsaid. This is I guess why there are a variety of different interpretations as to their ultimate meaning.

 

So for example the statement you provided from Jeramiah. "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." That would insinuate to me that his soul had an existence before entering the physical world as Jeramiah. That God already knew his nature before he incarnated in his body on earth. Thus Jeremiah was assigned a specific and important role in his life based on that knowledge. He came into this world with a pre-ordained purpose.

 

I don't think it means he never existed before that point - but that's just a personal view based on my own experiences and my own interpretation of scripture. I don't think god creates the final version of a being from scratch. Rather he creates something simple and allows it to grow, change and evolve over time while trying to guide that process in a positive direction. EG:"I am the true vine, and My Father is the keeper of the vineyard. He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful."

 

I follow the Christian teachings but I also believe other lesser masters and teachers have come and provided teachings that are complimentary with Christianity. I believe reincarnation is part of eternal life. Indeed though traditional christian view is not to believe in reincarnation there is specific references to it in the bible. Jesus referring to John the Baptist as being Elijah reincarnated is one such example. (Matthew 17:12). This would show how a soul\being which was righteous in one life returns in an important position in another due to previous good works.

 

So I believe god has the ability to harden hearts or to open them ..... but everything I have read in scripture and witnessed in my life leads me to believe this is done based on the individuals own beliefs, actions and behaviors. Those people who follow actions that bear positive fruit are nourished and encouraged. Those who produce the opposite get the opposite. He definitely molds and shapes but it still relies on us playing our part .

 

As for faith - I encourage you not to rely solely on this. I don't mean stop believing in god. I mean start desiring to know for sure. Start seeking - and maybe more important start focusing on "bearing the right type of fruit" and then see what happens.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Southern Sun]

No, you are mixing up completely different species. Homo Erectus and Homo Habilus are not Homo Sapiens. They are similar in some ways, but have large morphological differences, especially in the cranial area. In terms of intelligence they may have been closer to chimps than Modern Humans.

 

Homo Sapiens has been around for approximately 50,000 years. The number is not quite certain, and there is currently no fossil record link between Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus. So, it's impossible to say when Homo Sapiens first appeared... or even how they appeared. Could have crash landed from a space ship and we can't prove yes or no.

 

With that said... Tribal cultures that exist in isolation and have been studied by Anthropologists would be most indicative of what things were like 50,000 years ago, but we cannot make the assumption that they have not changed over the last 50 millennium.

 

Regarding the Old Testament view of other Gods, you have to understand that Biblical language was never meant to be read like a textbook. This is a modern Western failure. The best example is the creation story of Genesis. Many people actually think that God is trying to provide a science text on how he built the earth... which is ridiculous to even consider. Every other part of the Bible uses allegory and symbols... but people stop and think this part is like science. If you actually read the creation story the core idea is showing the reader the Order of the Universe. Day rules over Night, Man rules over Animals, God rules over everything... ect. It also has two simultaneous creation stories set right next to each other... one focusing on natural order, and the other focused squarely on Humans.

 

So, when you hear Old Testament references to other gods, it should be viewed like Christians today talking about other religions or the God of Cable TV... ect. It doesn't mean that they even acknowledge the existence of these false gods, it just means they recognize other people worshiping them.

 

Approx 150,000 years ago IS when h. sapiens are estimated to have evolved from h. erectus. The number I've read in every source is actually 150,000 to 200,000 (NOT 50,000). It is theorized that we are related because of similar brain size and anatomy. As an aside, neanderthals are estimated to have evolved around 500,000 years ago and became extinct around 24,000 years ago. There are homo erectus fossils dating back to 1.4M years ago! I suppose there is still some debate is to whether they are our direct ancestors, but that is the theory.

 

Regarding your comment that the bible is allegory, tell that to the tens/hundreds of thousands of Christians who will say that the Bible is literal and "God-breathed." I would tend to agree with you, if indeed it is true. It's the only way I could get comfortable with the Bible. It's probably part of my problem, actually...that I am told it is totally literal. It makes it hard for me to believe.

[Timshel]

I think we take ourselves far too seriously.

[Justanaverageguy]

Regarding your comment that the bible is allegory, tell that to the tens/hundreds of thousands of Christians who will say that the Bible is literal and "God-breathed." I would tend to agree with you, if indeed it is true. It's the only way I could get comfortable with the Bible. It's probably part of my problem, actually...that I am told it is totally literal. It makes it hard for me to believe.

 

I think like most things in life it is neither exclusively one or the other. It is part allegory/parable some parts literal and in some cases both simultaneously. The power of parable is that it contains lessons that are timeless and can be reapplied regardless of era. It can hold a deeper truth and meaning then merely a literal description which focuses purely on facts and details.

 

Even priests don’t claim the Bible to be 100% factual - there is a very small minority of fundamentalist who hold to this. God breathed - I take to simply mean created by his spirit\energy. If you have not had an experience of the Holy Spirit - what you might call a born again experience - it can be hard to understand what this means. This is the same experience Hindus/yogic schools refer to as Samadhi or a spiritual awakening. Your heart center opens and your engulfed in a loving energy unlike anything else you will ever experience. The picture of the “sacred heart” is an example of a picture trying to show/explain/convey what literally happens to a person when touched by the spirit. It is a literal energetic connection though the heart space.

 

Might sound weird but after I had my awakening experience like the above - I began investigating how this connection was possible from a physical and scientific standpoint. The “science behind spiritual awakening” if you will. To try to show the real factual data as to how it works I think would open it up to wider acceptance. I work in data communications and have extensive experience with wireless communications and antenna designs. I’m currently partnering with a lab in Heidelberg Germany which specializes in research around water. The project we are starting at the moment is specifically researching fluid based antennas. Using sea water and human blood as the conducting media for the antenna. This on its own is fairly simple and easy to do. Both sea water and blood are diamagnetic making them excellent conductors of electro magnetic fields. We have created a UHF radio antenna using my own blood which operates in the publically available Radio frequency spectrum. Can be connected to a standard walkie talkie to send and receive RF traffic. We are now going deeper using 3D models of organ structures to show how the shape of organs - specifically the heart and lungs- mirror that of a well known Wireless antenna called a Fractal tree dipole making it a highly efficient multiband antenna capable of both sending and receive elctromagnetic energy. Our aim is map the resonant frequency's of the organs to determine their operational range - then to test the effects of transmitting those frequencies back into a real organ (not in a living person) from a 3D model replica.

 

Might sound off the wall - but most new science does. Basic premise of the way the system operates can be found in the following tech video from a US Navy contractor looking at similar technology ->

 

Outline of the antenna type - Fractal Tree Dipole - the structure of the circulatory system the heart\lungs and also Kidneys are based on here -> https://imgur.com/5OB9ADG

Edited November 4, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[BC1980]

Regarding your comment that the bible is allegory, tell that to the tens/hundreds of thousands of Christians who will say that the Bible is literal and "God-breathed." I would tend to agree with you, if indeed it is true. It's the only way I could get comfortable with the Bible. It's probably part of my problem, actually...that I am told it is totally literal. It makes it hard for me to believe.

 

I would guess that the number of Christians who take everything in the Bible literally is very few. I don't know that for sure of course, but I've met very few Christians who actually believe that every single thing in the Bible is literally true. People use phrases like "I believe the Bible is the word of God or inspired," but they can't really tell you what they mean by that.

 

Just from a purely literary standpoint, it's obvious to me that something like the Tower of Babel is an allegory that is meant to convey a religious truth as opposed to record an historical record. I honestly know very few Christians that think the earth is 5000 years old, and even those aren't completely convinced. They will usually say that they realize what they believe could be wrong.

[Cobra_X]

Approx 150,000 years ago IS when h. sapiens are estimated to have evolved from h. erectus. The number I've read in every source is actually 150,000 to 200,000 (NOT 50,000). It is theorized that we are related because of similar brain size and anatomy. As an aside, neanderthals are estimated to have evolved around 500,000 years ago and became extinct around 24,000 years ago. There are homo erectus fossils dating back to 1.4M years ago! I suppose there is still some debate is to whether they are our direct ancestors, but that is the theory.

Regarding your comment that the bible is allegory, tell that to the tens/hundreds of thousands of Christians who will say that the Bible is literal and "God-breathed." I would tend to agree with you, if indeed it is true. It's the only way I could get comfortable with the Bible. It's probably part of my problem, actually...that I am told it is totally literal. It makes it hard for me to believe.

 

So are you assuming a gradual or punctuated equilibrium model for human evolution? Because there is no physical link established or even yet discovered. Additionally DNA testing has not illuminated this issue.

50,000 years ago is the most rational date. 150,000 is simply not supported by fossil evidence at this time. I believe that God would most likely work through a punctuated equilibrium model which is why fossil evidence will not be easily found.

 

Listen to Jesus. Did he explain the kingdom of heaven like a science text or did he use parables? Does that mean his words are not the words of God? The Bible is BOTH the Inspired True Word of God... and allegorical.

 

Look up Framework Theory for the creation story and then go back and read it. The whole thing makes better sense. Christian Literalism is a very new thing... I mean Charles Darwin believed in Christ and saw no issue with his theories and his faith.

[TheFinalWord]

I'm currently reading through Daniel and John, and I'm always surprised at how different things look when you read and entire book from start to finish. Instead of picking a parable from the NT or a story from the OT, reading a book from start to finish offers an entirely different perspective. Some of the stuff is just downright weird. John is a weird gospel as it is, but reading it from start to finish has been even weirder. A lot of this stuff is more palatable when you pick and choose a certain story of verse, which is obviously why people tend to do so.

 

I read Exodus last summer, and, now, reading Joshua, I'm more and more aware of the fact that the Israelites were not exactly monotheistic. It looks more like they believed in many gods and thought Yahweh was the best god.

 

Some of it is the idea of various types of literature. Most scholars believe John was written to supplement the synoptic gospels. John also appears to have been written so that various stories can be shared among early believers in isolation. One thing about the first century church is most Christians were poor, paper (papyri) was hard to come by, and they were under persecution. Much like us today, they may have had access to one or two passages from John to study from and use in their services. The earliest manuscript we have is actually a piece of papyri from the gospel of John (P52). After you read John, I recommend reading the letter of Polycarp. Polycarp was the disciple of John. The story of his martyrdom is crazy. It's almost like the Gospel of John is like the Tulmed...provides information to expand on baseline information provided in the Torah lol

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp

 

You identified an important feature of the OT. The temptation to revert to polytheism and to be like the other nations. One of the central themes of the the Torah is that the Israelites constantly broke the first commandment, mingled with the other nations, and adopted their downfalls (in one of the the most extreme examples, the worship of Baal and child sacrifice), and yet God redeemed them. You can also trace the genealogy of Christ in Joshua. Jesus was related to Rahab the harlot.

Edited November 8, 2017 by TheFinalWord
link

[TheFinalWord]

I recently heard someone describe his faith as half of his brain is atheist, and half of his brain believes in God. I feel like that describes me pretty well. There is a part of my brain that says all of this religions business is complete nonsense and another part that thinks this world is just too weird to have come into existence by accident and with no clear purpose.

 

Are you by chance a Gemini?

 

In a way, this is actually a blessing (though you might interpret it as a type of internal strife).

 

You have the ability to see life from two totally opposite lenses. In your case, its not just abstract, you can actually experience it. To me, this gives you a great advantage in your profession as you are able to empathize with people in different mental spaces. My guess is you are able to do this in other ways beyond this topic...it's just with this particular topic you may have not yet found a balance between the two (yet ).

Edited November 11, 2017 by TheFinalWord

[BC1980]

Are you by chance a Gemini?

 

In a way, this is actually a blessing (though you might interpret it as a type of internal strife).

 

You have the ability to see life from two totally opposite lenses. In your case, its not just abstract, you can actually experience it. To me, this gives you a great advantage in your profession as you are able to empathize with people in different mental spaces. My guess is you are able to do this in other ways beyond this topic...it's just with this particular topic you may have not yet found a balance between the two (yet ).

 

I'm actually a Sagittarius. The bolded is interesting; I've never thought of it that way before, but it definitely resonates with me. I'm trying to find a balance and stop fighting either side.

Save

[TheFinalWord]

I'm actually a Sagittarius. The bolded is interesting; I've never thought of it that way before, but it definitely resonates with me. I'm trying to find a balance and stop fighting either side.

Save

 

haha that's funny. I was kidding about horoscope, but I do think you have a lot of unique gifts! I also think you are on an honest spiritual quest, and no one can ask for more than that. I hope you find the answer you seek!!

[BC1980]

haha that's funny. I was kidding about horoscope, but I do think you have a lot of unique gifts! I also think you are on an honest spiritual quest, and no one can ask for more than that. I hope you find the answer you seek!!

 

Me too, but I'm coming around to the idea that it's more about making peace with what I don't know.

 

Save

[Redhead14]

BC, here's a link to an excellent bible-based, literal translation, non-denominational site https://gracethrufaith.com/. The doctrine includes OSAS - Once Saved, Always Saved. All that is needed to be saved is to believe that Jesus died for our sins.

 

The site has an excellent question and answer section, 800 pages of questions and answers and the pastor who runs it will personally answer your own questions as well. He explains things very well and simply.

 

I think if you really take a deep dive into reading and understanding the Bible, your thirst for knowledge of it will increase.

 

If you've been down that road already, you'll just need to at least continue to be open-minded, open-hearted and patient and see if you feel called at some point. You are on the right path, at least, by thinking and questioning and exploring, etc. I think God will put what you need on your heart and things will become clear for you in due time. Wanting to believe is a good first step.

[OpenBook]

Me too, but I'm coming around to the idea that it's more about making peace with what I don't know.

 

That's definitely part of it for me! I pray a lot for clarity and discernment and guidance. I don't always get the understanding part (although the guidance always seems to come through). I still struggle with the frustration that comes from being confused and not understanding. But it helps when I look at it as an opportunity to develop my faith - kinda like building muscle, the more you work it the better the results. I just hand it all over to God and let Him be in the driver's seat, and trust that He'll work it out for our good and His glory: "Dear Lord, help me get through this day. Guide my steps. Please don't leave me." Then I just head into the fray and do the best I can. It always ends up being not NEARLY as bad as I thought it would be. And I learned a little something from it.

[Ronni_W]

<edited>

- “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day”

- "So Jesus added, 'Because of this I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has allowed him to come'

- “Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away”

- "You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit — fruit that will remain"

- "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me."

The challenge comes when we put the human personality Jesus in place of the Universal Christ Mind which Jesus demonstrated. More often than not, when Jesus used the

first person pronouns 'I' and 'me' he was not referring to his human personality but to that level of spiritual attainment that he had reached, called 'Christ Consciousness' (or, as it was called to the Philipians, 'the mind which was also in Christ Jesus.')

 

Jesus doesn't say anywhere that he is the only one who had this Christ Mind or who can ever attain it - that is the Sanhedrin and Romans and subsequent Roman Christian-Catholic Church, from which derives all then-subsequent Christian or Christ-based religions, because they did not want the masses to know their own individual Christ Mind (for then we would no longer need or submit or tithe to the priests/synagogue/church).

 

In fact, Jesus specifically said, "Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these...." [berean Study Bible.] Again, meaning those who believe in the Universal Christ; not in some human guy named Jesus (for Jesus was not yet ascended at that time, although he had already attained a very high degree of his personal Christhood.)

 

Christians think that they do not have to do anything to enter permanently into Heaven (or 'to be saved' or 'into Nirvana' - as you say, it's all the same thing). In fact, the New Testament specifically says, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus," which means for each of us to come into our own individual recognition of our oneness with God. It is the Christ Mind which says, "I and my God are one." So, to think otherwise is to buy into another falsehood from the Romans; a misrepresentation and misinterpretation of Jesus' true teachings -- much and the meat of which was removed from the New Testament at the 325AD Council of Nicea and subsequent such Councils.

So Christians do need to go digging deeper, not because Jesus' teachings are wrong but because greedy, selfish, unascended human Beings (the Sanhedrin, Romans and subsequent) have either kept his true teachings from us or have adulterated them.

 

If we only use the Old and New Testaments, then that is when it becomes so difficult to make sense of some of our personal experiences and/or what is manifest

and going on, on our planet and happening to others. It makes it difficult if not impossible to know a loving and benevolent God whose Will and Laws are actually

not meant to make us hurt and suffer.

[Justanaverageguy]

The challenge comes when we put the human personality Jesus in place of the Universal Christ Mind which Jesus demonstrated. More often than not, when Jesus used the

first person pronouns 'I' and 'me' he was not referring to his human personality but to that level of spiritual attainment that he had reached, called 'Christ Consciousness' (or, as it was called to the Philipians, 'the mind which was also in Christ Jesus.')

 

Yes I agree - but even his own disciples didn't seem to gather this so I don't tend to blame the church for the way the teaching ended up.

 

eg: John 14:9 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, carrying out His work"

 

As the church grew over time the new teachers likely did their best but simply didn't understand - and more importantly - didn't experience the teaching directly. They weren't touched by the holy spirit so didn't really understand the true meaning of what happens when it "dwells" in your heart and how to convey that in the teaching. How you literally transform and are connected with god and take on "his pattern of behaviours". In-spite of this though I do also believe that the person\soul that was the man Jesus also wasn't an ordinary man. He was a master sent for a specific purpose - which was to create a way back for sinners

 

 

If we only use the Old and New Testaments, then that is when it becomes so difficult to make sense of some of our personal experiences and/or what is manifest and going on, on our planet and happening to others. It makes it difficult if not impossible to know a loving and benevolent God whose Will and Laws are actually not meant to make us hurt and suffer.

 

For me after I had an awakening the new testament came alive with truth. There is so much wisdom in the teachings of Jesus. But I agree in that the new testament essentially provides the law and the way we should live our lives. The problem is for most people including myself "the flesh is weak". Its one thing to know the truth - its another to live it. Its a daily struggle to be a good person and rise above our natural impulses to live a pure life. So even though the law is correct we need more. Providing additional methods wasn't the role Jesus came to fulfill - other teachers came to provide those.

 

For me this is where the Yogic schools of knowledge come in. They are more about methods of altering and improving your own nature. Yoga, Meditation, Mantras chanting have had a massively powerful effect on me and the way I act. After my awakening I went off the rails a bit and had some very negative experiences. The Yoga schools have put me back on the path and completely rekindled the spirit.

 

So I combine the two elements together. Striving to follow the law and example outlined in the New Testament but simultaneously leveraging the tools of the Yoga Sutra to refine and improve my being so I'm able to do this more easily.

 

I can't believe the effect Mantra chanting has had on my spiritual progress. Very old practice which has been dismissed by most today as something weird people did in the past. I tell you it purifies and awakens your divine nature like nothing else. Within Yoga there is an entire school dedicated to the effects of sound on the human body Called Nada Yoga. The sounds they found to have positive spiritual effects when recited were classified as divine names. This was an energetic effect. I've spent the last 4 months chanting Vedic Mantras for 30 mins every morning and 30 mins every evening and the effects are profound. It took about 3 months before I started to see the results but now when I chant I'm just totally engulfed in love. It has made being a good person and helping others not something I want to do - but something I simply can't help. And thats not me bragging - that's all the mantra's.

 

I see a lot of people on this board saying - I want to know if God is real. My question is what are you doing to find out ? Seek! Dedicate yourself to a Sadhana practice. Sadhana meaning disciplined daily spiritual practice. If you really want to see god - you have to uncover him within yourself. You will not find him "outside" of yourself.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Ronni_W]

In-spite of this though I do also believe that the person\soul that was the man Jesus also wasn't an ordinary man. He was a master sent for a specific purpose - which was to create a way back for sinners

I don't identify as a sinner but as a Spiritual-Divine Being. . Notwithstanding that I have since then taken on various aspects of the fallen and lesser-lower consciousness, nevertheless I was created pure by God and thus am not inherently a 'sinner'.

 

Yes, that was one of the goals of Jesus' Mission, but he did not come into that embodiment already an Ascended Master (just as Gautama Bhudda did not). He attained his Christ/Ascended Consciousness during that lifetime (but before his arrest). Part of it was precisely so that we could see/learn that this is indeed possible for each person while still on Earth; we can earn our Christhood while we are here, if we will but strive and make the effort.

 

But people are afraid to claim their Divine Status and to start asking, 'Hey! How can I do what Jesus did??? He promised that I'd be able to, and I've been 'believing on Him' for hundreds of lifetimes already and I'm nowhere closer to being able to heal the sick or multiply the fishes!!! What do I not know that I need to know???'

We have to ask the question. Again, it was Jesus himself who said, "I tell you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door [of true spiritual knowledge] will be opened to you."

Yoga, Meditation, Mantras chanting have had a massively powerful effect on me and the way I act. After my awakening I went off the rails a bit and had some very negative experiences. The Yoga schools have put me back on the path and completely rekindled the spirit.

I can't believe the effect Mantra chanting has had on my spiritual progress. ... it purifies and awakens your divine nature like nothing else.

I've also had some very negative metaphysical experiences which, I came to realize, was only for lack of having been taught anything about the importance of invoking Spiritual Protection which, of course, is part of the 'Ritual of Taking Refuge' in the Bhuddist tradition.

 

I do use Mantras but also some of the other spiritual tools that have more recently been introduced into the West through such movements as Summit Lighthouse and Kim Michaels' TranscendenceToolbox.com.

Even so, though, I do agree that the Eastern Sacred Texts contain valuable and practical spiritual tools; e.g., The Six Yogas of Naropa. You probably already know that Jesus studied in the East before returning to his homeland to fulfill his Mission. They removed this from the 'official' records so that, first, it would seem that no work is required by individuals on Earth and, second, to set-up Jesus as something that we cannot hope to duplicate. But, of course this is idolatry of Jesus because he himself said, "I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these," - the deeper/hidden/esoteric meaning being 'whoever works and attains Christ Consciousness for themselves will also have dominion over Matter, as I am demonstrating'.

I see a lot of people on this board saying - I want to know if God is real. My question is what are you doing to find out ? Seek! Dedicate yourself to a Sadhana practice. Sadhana meaning disciplined daily spiritual practice. If you really want to see god - you have to uncover him within yourself. You will not find him "outside" of yourself.

That is indeed Jesus' main outer teaching: the kingdom of heaven is within. The problem is that Christians have been lulled to sleep by the false message that the human personality Jesus has done all the work for them by dying on the cross. This of course goes against what Jesus himself said: "Take the beam out of your own eye" - which refers to the purifying that you mention. We personally have to do the work of clearing our psychology of fallen and lesser-lower ideas, nature and habits, and of purifying and transmuting our own negative Karma ('sins') and entire consciousness and Energy field. This cannot be done for us by anybody else.

 

Like you, I also combine practices from various traditions. I prefer the Bhuddist 'Ritual of Confession' but, to transmute Energies, I like using what are called 'Decrees to the Violet Flame' or 'Invocations to the Sacred Rays', etc. I get the same 'spiritual high' from giving them as I think you do through reciting Mantras. (Actually, it's probably the exact same practice, now that I think about it; or at least brings about the exact same spiritual effect/result, at both physical and metaphysical levels.)

 

Justanaverageguy, I very much appreciate your contributions to this board. When you start webcasting your spiritual classes/seminars, count me in! . (Yes...of course you are already ready to take that next step!)

[Justanaverageguy]

I don't identify as a sinner but as a Spiritual-Divine Being. . Notwithstanding that I have since then taken on various aspects of the fallen and lesser-lower consciousness, nevertheless I was created pure by God and thus am not inherently a 'sinner'.

 

Yes, that was one of the goals of Jesus' Mission, but he did not come into that embodiment already an Ascended Master (just as Gautama Bhudda did not). He attained his Christ/Ascended Consciousness during that lifetime (but before his arrest). Part of it was precisely so that we could see/learn that this is indeed possible for each person while still on Earth; we can earn our Christhood while we are here, if we will but strive and make the effort.

 

Sure and its wonderful that you do I also don't subscribe to the old testament idea that we are all inherently terrible sinners and bad either. But people (all of us) do unfortunately sin at some level. Some in their lives do really awful things - and there are consequences for those actions. Karma says what we put out comes back to us energetically. Thus the story of Jesus and his life is meant to serve as a "parable". This is how he tought so clearly the story of his life is intended the same way. To have a deeper meaning still relevant today.

 

As for whether he came already as a "master" or developed that during his time on earth - I don't really see it as important. I personally tend to view him as the "big boss" metaphorically represented by the "sun". The one who is in charge of the human realm and provides the energy for us to exist (man cannot live on bread alone) - but I don't really have strong feelings or consider it to be overly important.

 

What I see as important was the meaning behind the story of his life - and I think my view is different to yours. That his\gods spirit is able to "relieve the consequences" of sin. He sacrifices his own energy (blood) to "wash us clean" and essentially clear our Karmic debt. This is specifically how I had my awakening - dealing with the Karmic load of my own bad and indeed very sinful decisions earlier in my life which came back to me ending in a horrible divorce. Then in the mist of my worst suffering - bam a born again experience - literally touched by the holy spirit - and the health issues and painful emotional experiences I was struggling with were simply wiped clean. Gone and replaced with a loving bliss. This is what you call Grace. I did not have my experience of god through my own righteous action - but rather through the grace of god who took pitty and released me of the consequences of my own actions. This is what is meant in Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.". It doesn't mean you don't need to do good works - which is an absurd concept. It means those who had this experience of the holy spirit were saved and redeemed by grace - not at all by their own actions.

 

Thus the story of Jesus is very personal and kind of a big deal for me. The gospel is intended as a parable for how he\God can work in peoples lives now - today. For sinners who have gone off the path and through their own wrong actions would otherwise be lost under the weight of their own karma. He is able to remove the burden and offer a second chance. As he said himself: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

 

This to me is what Jesus represents - the path back to life for sinners which is available still today. Jesus comes alive in the hearts of men providing forgiveness, rejuvenation and an opportunity to make a mends. I feel in his Physical life he came to represent that set purpose - and he fulfilled it - but his role wasn't to provide all the tools and practices to help raise up those walking the righteous path other then to live as an example. Others came and provided tools - when we are trying to walk the righteous path we are wise to also use those tools.

 

 

But people are afraid to claim their Divine Status and to start asking, 'Hey! How can I do what Jesus did??? He promised that I'd be able to, and I've been 'believing on Him' for hundreds of lifetimes already and I'm nowhere closer to being able to heal the sick or multiply the fishes!!! What do I not know that I need to know???'

We have to ask the question. Again, it was Jesus himself who said, "I tell you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door [of true spiritual knowledge] will be opened to you."

I've also had some very negative metaphysical experiences which, I came to realize, was only for lack of having been taught anything about the importance of invoking Spiritual Protection which, of course, is part of the 'Ritual of Taking Refuge' in the Bhuddist tradition.

 

I do use Mantras but also some of the other spiritual tools that have more recently been introduced into the West through such movements as Summit Lighthouse and Kim Michaels' TranscendenceToolbox.com.

Even so, though, I do agree that the Eastern Sacred Texts contain valuable and practical spiritual tools; e.g., The Six Yogas of Naropa. You probably already know that Jesus studied in the East before returning to his homeland to fulfill his Mission. They removed this from the 'official' records so that, first, it would seem that no work is required by individuals on Earth and, second, to set-up Jesus as something that we cannot hope to duplicate. But, of course this is idolatry of Jesus because he himself said, "I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these," - the deeper/hidden/esoteric meaning being 'whoever works and attains Christ Consciousness for themselves will also have dominion over Matter, as I am demonstrating'.

That is indeed Jesus' main outer teaching: the kingdom of heaven is within. The problem is that Christians have been lulled to sleep by the false message that the human personality Jesus has done all the work for them by dying on the cross. This of course goes against what Jesus himself said: "Take the beam out of your own eye" - which refers to the purifying that you mention. We personally have to do the work of clearing our psychology of fallen and lesser-lower ideas, nature and habits, and of purifying and transmuting our own negative Karma ('sins') and entire consciousness and Energy field. This cannot be done for us by anybody else.

 

Like you, I also combine practices from various traditions. I prefer the Bhuddist 'Ritual of Confession' but, to transmute Energies, I like using what are called 'Decrees to the Violet Flame' or 'Invocations to the Sacred Rays', etc. I get the same 'spiritual high' from giving them as I think you do through reciting Mantras. (Actually, it's probably the exact same practice, now that I think about it; or at least brings about the exact same spiritual effect/result, at both physical and metaphysical levels.)

 

Justanaverageguy, I very much appreciate your contributions to this board. When you start webcasting your spiritual classes/seminars, count me in! . (Yes...of course you are already ready to take that next step!)

 

I'm not sure people are afraid to claim their divine status - I think they don't know where to start. They are so busy with life and dealing with their own - sometimes not healthy thinking patterns - that trying to envisage themselves as a divine being isn't even on their radar. They are just trying to get by and survive. Also most have never even had a sniff of what the "higher energies" taste like. They think the way they live their life and the way they experience their life is all there is. You don't go looking for diamonds when you have never seen a diamond before. Thus many need to have a spiritual experience first before it kick starts the seeking to hold onto these higher states of consciousness. I personally would never have gone down the path I am now if it wasn't for the experience I had. "I believe because I have seen - blessed are those who believe even though they have not seen"

 

Also regarding new age practices - I have mixed feelings on these. I'm certain there are some really good quality teachings and practices amongst them. Ekhart tolle for example - yours may well be in this category. But there are also some that aren't so high quality \ pure and I've seen people run afoul of these. To avoid issues my personal method and preference has been to go to older practices and traditions that have lasted. Generally speaking those practices that have passed the test of time are those that definitely work and are beneficial. This is why they survived. Time has kind of done the vetting work for you to weed out the false teachings that lead to negative places or simply didn't work. A linage of practitioners which maintains a practice over time is only created when something works because people get the benefit from it - then seeing the benefit they dedicate themselves to maintaining it and passing it on to others so they can also benefit.

 

Also thanks for the encouragement on the teaching - but I don't think I'm anywhere near that level yet. I also really enjoy the conversations with you on this board - seems we are both in similar stages of seeking At the moment I just try to influence where I can in a positive direction those who are around me and learn from those who are further on the path. Generally speaking my process since awakening is pretty simple. I've tried to dedicate myself to the 3 yogic ideals of:

 

Satsang - Which means being with true people. Creating a network of like minded people looking to walk the spiritual path and lead a moral life. We thus influence and advise each other in a positive direction. I have a completely non denomination spiritual group who meet regularly to discuss various topics and simply converse about challenges we are facing.

 

Sadhana - Means dedicated work and practice towards spiritual advancement. These are the tools I mentioned - things that can help to refine and improve who we are and transmute negative aspects and karma. It is through these practices that we strive to better ourselves. I got a bit of a helping hand through grace - but after that the work falls to us. I personally have gravitated towards the yogic teachings and now do meditation, yoga and chanting every day and have been steadily increasing the time I dedicate to this. The most important thing I have found when it comes to this is consistency of effort and patience. Try not to jump around from practice to practice instead stick to a small number you can do consistently. It takes time for the fruit of these to ripen.

 

Seva - Which simply means service. Helping people, becoming an active positive member of the community. Donating money, time and energy towards helping others in what ever way I can. The Satsang group I'm apart of is just getting rolling at the moment with setting up events such as Buying presents for refugees, we do regular blood drives, events for other charities and other events like that.

 

They aren't really anything out of the ordinary but its amazing what a difference consitently aligning yourself with these ideals makes to your well being.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Ronni_W]

As for whether he came already as a "master" or developed that during his time on earth - I don't really see it as important. I personally tend to view him as the "big boss" metaphorically represented by the "sun". ... That his\gods spirit is able to "relieve the consequences" of sin. He sacrifices his own energy (blood) to "wash us clean" and essentially clear our Karmic debt.

For sure you and I have much in common - for most of my life I also have held Jesus as my primary spiritual role-model or Guru, if you will; and, like you, I also think that spiritual students need to go to the Eastern scriptures to make higher progress on the spiritual path.

 

But only in the last decade or so, I’ve come to realize that on account of my Roman Catholic upbringing, I’ve been carrying – and, sadly, was quite devoted to – many misguided and wrong beliefs and ideas about Jesus, his life and his Mission; and I’ve had to work most diligently to overcome them. Information like The Mystical Teachings of Jesus has been most helpful to set me straight on ‘the narrow way through the small gate’. .

 

The most important change that I had to make was to be able to make a clear distinction between Jesus, the man who walked the Earth, and the level of consciousness that he attained while walking the Earth. So, for me now, Christ or Christ Consciousness is the ‘big boss’ and the ‘Sun’ – because Christ Consciousness is Universal and not exclusive to the man, Jesus.

 

Jesus’ example is that each person walking the Earth also can, with proper spiritual effort and practices, attain Christ Consciousness; we each have our own Christ Potential that we must realize. It is this Universal Christ Consciousness, Light and Energy that we must invoke and use to ‘wash clean’ ourselves (through purifying practices). We could call it a Grace, but we still have to earn it through our own conscious efforts whether in this or prior lifetimes.

Also regarding new age practices ... there are also some that aren't so high quality \ pure and I've seen people run afoul of these.[/Quote] It’s so true that we need to use our own judgment no matter who we follow, and assure ourselves to the best of our ability that what we take on board contains a vibration of Truth. As far as ‘New Age’ or ‘Golden Age’ or ‘Aquarian Age’ works, I just see it as part of the continual, ever-transcending expression of the Living Word or Progressive Revelation; so, for me, it requires the same personal discernment as any of the other Sacred Texts and spiritual teachings (such as from Osho, Patanjali, Neale Donald Walsch, ACIM, etc.)

 

In fact, when I start to follow your webcasts, I’ll be following a New Age teacher who is sharing his inspired-personal revelations of spiritual matters, won’t I? . (Reference: a paragraph in your Post #107.)

 

I’ve also been trying to base my daily practice on the three pillars that you mention. As far as practices, I agree that we need to stick with it for a while before we can see whether it’s beneficial for us or not – but on the other side, not to get married to any single one. As we progress on the path, our practice necessarily needs to be elevated to reflect the changes in our levels of consciousness.

 

Again, thanks very much, Justanaverageguy.

[Justanaverageguy]

But only in the last decade or so, I’ve come to realize that on account of my Roman Catholic upbringing, I’ve been carrying – and, sadly, was quite devoted to – many misguided and wrong beliefs and ideas about Jesus, his life and his Mission; and I’ve had to work most diligently to overcome them. Information like The Mystical Teachings of Jesus has been most helpful to set me straight on ‘the narrow way through the small gate’. .

 

The most important change that I had to make was to be able to make a clear distinction between Jesus, the man who walked the Earth, and the level of consciousness that he attained while walking the Earth. So, for me now, Christ or Christ Consciousness is the ‘big boss’ and the ‘Sun’ – because Christ Consciousness is Universal and not exclusive to the man, Jesus.

 

Jesus’ example is that each person walking the Earth also can, with proper spiritual effort and practices, attain Christ Consciousness; we each have our own Christ Potential that we must realize. It is this Universal Christ Consciousness, Light and Energy that we must invoke and use to ‘wash clean’ ourselves (through purifying practices). We could call it a Grace, but we still have to earn it through our own conscious efforts whether in this or prior lifetimes.

 

 

Looks like an interesting site - will take a look through it when I get some free time this evening.

 

Regarding your view on Christ we share a lot of the same beliefs - I definitely believe we need to work to raise our consciousness - our level of being - with the ultimate aim to match his. I'm not so sure that's possible in this life - but that's the ultimate "goal". To refine ourselves - to clean the vessel so we can be filled with divine energy - holy spirit what ever you wish to call it. This is really what gave Jesus his power - he was a perfect conduit so that divine universal energy could simply flow through him. This is what Jesus was talking about with I am in the father and the father is in me. He was filled - because his being and intentions were pure. They aligned perfectly with that of god and so he literally became god. Kind of like tuning forks and wireless energy transfer - when 2 tuning forks frequency match the energy from one can be passed to the other. He was "in tune" with God - the universal divine energy

 

 

I guess what I was saying is that I believe Jesus life itself was supposed to signify or provide a new way - that would make this "experience of god" available to people who were badly out of tune. It enabled the Saul on the road to Damascus type experiences - where someone way off the path could be transformed and brought back. So yes we should always aim for the high path without needing this intervention - but Jesus life itself was meant to symbolize this new avenue. Redemption or "raising sinners from the dead" so to speak. Thus much of the Christian church was built around this premise and the concept of sin and redemption. It didn't focus on how Jesus developed his Christ consciousness (other then selfless service and faith off course) - because providing these additional tools and methods wasn't his message. It wasn't the purpose of his life. Most of Jesus direct followers joined him from a direct personal spiritual transformation experience - his spirit changed them. Saul the persecutor of Christians - Matthew the tax collector etc etc. Saul\Paul by the way wrote 30% of the NT ..... so with his background and experience of Sinner to Saint you start to understand why it reads and preaches the message the way it does.

 

It’s so true that we need to use our own judgment no matter who we follow, and assure ourselves to the best of our ability that what we take on board contains a vibration of Truth. As far as ‘New Age’ or ‘Golden Age’ or ‘Aquarian Age’ works, I just see it as part of the continual, ever-transcending expression of the Living Word or Progressive Revelation; so, for me, it requires the same personal discernment as any of the other Sacred Texts and spiritual teachings (such as from Osho, Patanjali, Neale Donald Walsch, ACIM, etc.)

 

In fact, when I start to follow your webcasts, I’ll be following a New Age teacher who is sharing his inspired-personal revelations of spiritual matters, won’t I? . (Reference: a paragraph in your Post #107.)

 

Yes thats true - you are right I think some of them provide excellent supplements to provide deeper or additional insights. I guess what I have seen that concerns me is many of the newer teachings are very narrow - or focused on specific areas. So its not so much that they are not true - more that they only provide narrow insights. Something like law of attraction for example. It comes without any spiritual foundation - so if people come to this teaching without already having a strong spiritual foundation they can quickly use it to go wildly off the path. Right judgement and discernment are key as you say

 

Thanks again for your post - enjoy reading as always

Edited November 29, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Ronni_W]

He was filled - because his being and intentions were pure. They aligned perfectly with that of god and so he literally became god. ... He was "in tune" with God - the universal divine energy

 

We do share a very similar spiritual perspective! I think the difference in how we express it (the words we use to explain the same thing) comes about on account of us having used different teachings and resources to arrive at similar observations.

 

Yes, by the end of his lifetime Jesus was fully attuned with his own Divine Presence or what is also called his ‘I AM Presence’. He fully knew himself as a Spiritual-Divine Being or, he knew himself as an individualization of God; which, each one of us is also an individualization of God. At this point, the only difference between any one of us and Jesus-on-Earth is that we have not yet arrived at the fullness of our own attunement with our own Christ Mind.

 

In his full Christhood, Jesus was indeed a perfect conduit for Divine Energy; Christ is the Light of the World. But, he wasn’t born in this perfection, as demonstrated, for example, by his angry outbursts at the money-changers and the fig tree. It’s that we manifest our unique-individual God Identity and thereby express God on Earth, is how I would put it rather than us literally becoming God. So, there is Jesus-the-Christ and, in his time, Justanaverageguy-the-Christ, and, in my time, Ronni-the-Christ. This is also part of what Jesus came here to help people understand: You and I – and all other people – are Christs-in-Potential. We’re still in the process of manifesting it, is all. Although the churches want us to, I would not call us ‘sinners’ just because we have not yet mastered this process, but... .

 

I agree with you but use different words: Jesus’ life was a literal example of the process for transformation that we must effect in order to ‘put on the Mind of Christ’; we need to trade-in our lesser-lower consciousness including through transmuting our negative Karma. In Christian doctrine, being in this state of consciousness and still having Karma to balance is called ‘being a sinner’ – and if you are a ‘sinner’ then, in order to be ‘saved’, you need some external power (that you can usually only access through the church: Grace, Spiritual Forgiveness, God, the love of Jesus Christ, etc., etc.); you can’t do it by yourself or outside of the church. But Jesus came to show and prove otherwise; it must be done from within, is what he repeatedly told us.

 

If we buy into all of that doctrine today, then that’s when it becomes difficult to actually ever get in tune or attuned with our own God-Who-Is-Within; our own source of Divine Light and Energy. Precisely because, as you say, the Christian churches do not offer any practical, true/valid spiritual practices.

 

So, Christians really do have to allow themselves to follow Jesus’ examples: He very often went off by himself to pray (meditate or ‘go within’) in order to maintain and strengthen his contact/attunement with God. He also was very much attuned to his own Energy field or aura, as demonstrated in Luke 8:44-46: “She came up behind Jesus and touched the fringe of His cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped. ‘Who touched Me?’ Jesus asked. But they all denied it. ‘Master,’ said Peter, ‘the people are crowding and pressing against You’. But Jesus declared, ‘Someone touched Me for I know that power [Divine Energy] has gone out from Me.”

 

In general, Christian churches do not talk about how to attune with and come into a personal relationship with God or one’s own Divine Presence; prayer is passive, devotional, supplicating, directed outward. Neither is there reference to the chakra system or Energy field. And ‘original sin’ is used to turn us all away from our own individual Divine-Spiritual Identity and into ‘human sinners’ who are inherently spiritually unworthy, and instead of providing a proper spiritual explanation of how we generate our own negative Karma over many reincarnations.

 

So, if they truly want to follow Jesus’ example, then Christians must go to the Eastern scriptures to learn the practices that he used and also must do what Jesus said:

"Go within!" The Bible also offers only a narrow insight.

 

It makes it very difficult to believe in God, which is the original dilemma posed by this thread. Or, perhaps, to believe in a loving, benevolent, friendly God.

 

My thanks to BC1980 for starting the thread, and to all contributors. .

[Justanaverageguy]

We do share a very similar spiritual perspective! I think the difference in how we express it (the words we use to explain the same thing) comes about on account of us having used different teachings and resources to arrive at similar observations.

 

I agree with you but use different words: Jesus’ life was a literal example of the process for transformation that we must effect in order to ‘put on the Mind of Christ’; we need to trade-in our lesser-lower consciousness including through transmuting our negative Karma. In Christian doctrine, being in this state of consciousness and still having Karma to balance is called ‘being a sinner’ – and if you are a ‘sinner’ then, in order to be ‘saved’, you need some external power (that you can usually only access through the church: Grace, Spiritual Forgiveness, God, the love of Jesus Christ, etc., etc.); you can’t do it by yourself or outside of the church. But Jesus came to show and prove otherwise; it must be done from within, is what he repeatedly told us.

 

Yes we share much of the same view and I really enjoy speaking with your because we both seem to reference the Christian and Eastern teachings together which I sometimes find difficult to come across. I think maybe we do still have one difference though ..... which I enjoy because I think it keeps the conversation interesting and allows us to bounce back and forth with our perspectives.

 

I totally agree with your comments that:

- We need to work on ourselves to refine ourselves (not sure anyone could argue with that).

- That jesus provided the example of the Christ mind \ way of being we all should ultimately aim for and try to emulate

- I also totally believe that like you said the doctrine of the church has put too much emphasis on essentially "relying on Jesus to do the work". The idea of believing Jesus sacrifice means all the work and the only hope of salvation is through him. It has thus not provided tools for people to help themselves. Kind of a lazy mans path to enlightenment.

 

But the one point where I think maybe we differ is the part I highlighted - and like you said its mostly around wording. As I quoted before Jesus said many many times he came for the sinner not the righteous. For the sick not the healthy. Yes he does act as an example for righteous but in my mind it wasn't the purpose of his life. You said:

"In Christian doctrine - if you are a ‘sinner’ then, in order to be ‘saved’, you need some external power (that you can usually only access through the church"

 

I would say the Christian teaching oversimplified what was intended. People can and should help themselves and have the ability to transmute negative karma themselves by doing good works and being a good person and following other practices taught in the east. But irrespective of that there are people who reach a point where they are beyond that. (This certainly isn't everyone but it is a significant number). They have accumulated a large enough "debt" of negative karma that there is no possible way they could hope to pay it off without outside help. And the consequences of "sin" are very real. That's maybe another thing I also feel some new age teachings are too "lovey dovey" with no balance - they wrongly "de-emphasise" this. Some have an idea that it will all work out in the end - you just have as many Karmic births as you need. Its all just learning. And sure Karma is a learning tool - but it simply isn't true that it always works out in the end. Hell is to me a metaphysical place and it occurs when someone has developed such a huge level of bad karma they are burried under it into a never ending cycle of pain and suffering where they essentially destroy themselves.

 

So for me this was a large part of the purpose of Jesus "mission" and the symbolism of his crucifixion - to provide a way for those who had no way. To get in between this cycle of negative karma and act as the payer of debts for those who would never be able to repay what they owed. Because forgiveness of debt is not "free" - it requires someone else to foot the bill. In this case God\Jesus offering their own spirit to transmute the negative energy and consequences. A metaphysical blood sacrifice so to speak.

 

The mistake I feel from the church was simply they took this to an extreme place as a "blanket" rule and applied it to everyone - even the "righteous" when Jesus explicitly said he didn't come for them. Basically regardless of how you have lived - you are a sinner and have no hope of helping yourself - good works won't save you - the only way is through outside help (which is still partially true if you understand your connection with god - but not the way they protrayed it). They skewed the message and the metaphor - but that doesn't mean there isn't a deep and important truth in the original message and what was provided - a chance for grace - through his sacrifice. In order to offer this spiritually it had to be done physically also.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

But, he wasn’t born in this perfection, as demonstrated, for example, by his angry outbursts at the money-changers and the fig tree.

 

Also regarding this a comment just to stimulate - I'm not really sure any of this indicates sin or imperfection. Reproving immoral action in one case - and if you understand the symbolism of the fig tree in the bible its in my opinion intended again as a Metaphor \ Parable in itself. When viewed in that context it has meaning and is intended as a warning. Having experienced some of "God's wrath" directly so to speak I think its naive to think that "he" doesn't judge or discipline in a forceful way. Forceful judgment is sometimes necessary and Fear of god is still wise advice in addition to love of. If for example you put the cursed fig next to the parable of the barren fig and the true vine - it starts to make complete sense. Bear good fruit or else so to speak. I provide a stay of execution for those who haven't born good fruit and chance for repentance ...... but not indefinitely. His grace fertilizes an otherwise barren tree in order that it might grow and bear good fruit - but there is still a limit to grace if it still does not produce a crop.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_barren_fig_tree

Edited November 29, 2017 by Justanaverageguy