Want to believe in God but can't

[mightycpa]

The vast majority of evangelical christians supporting and celebrating Trump (unquestionably a non-Christian) is an example.

Now seems like a good time to point out that Christ himself never asked anything of Rome. Quite the opposite. "Render UNTO Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's." God asks you to give to the poor yourself, not support a bloated bureaucracy that takes from the top 20% to and borrows the rest to provide for the general welfare. The Trump opposition (not all atheist) does nothing but ask more and more of Caesar, and ask others to pay for it or to borrow on their behalf, leaving their debt to future generations. They will actually protest when Caesar proposes to merely reduce the rate of increase of the largesse. It's ironic, because on the one hand, they try to shame certain Christians for not supporting alms-giving by the government, as if that was what Christ told people to do, but then on the other hand, they constantly remind that religion and government don't mix. So which is it? It's a mystifying duality of perspective.

4. There was a saying that I saw not too long ago that really explains the atheist's POV. To paraphrase, an atheist recognizes that this is all there is, so live life to the fullest and best way you possibly can. This also involves how those around you are affected. Simple and quite utilitarian.

Evolutionarily speaking, this seems a little self-congratulating and contrary to the truth. There is no moral imperative in atheism. Atheists simply pursue pleasure to the extent that they define pleasure. If pleasure means killing ~78 million people, and your name is Mao, and you have the means, then you do it, without a second thought of what the consequences to your mortal soul might be. If you like to lecture people about the "goodness" of atheism and the evil of religion, then you do it, ignoring the dictum about refraining from judging, lest you be judged. If you like to gaze at the stars, and publish observations, then you do it. If you want to sit around, get drunk and watch TV, you do it. Whatever... it's up to you.

 

Atheism is not about doing one's "best", whatever that is. It is about pursuing pleasure, not necessarily in the sense of vices, but in the sense that you do what you really want to do. But part of that is being a creature of your culture, and your access to power. So, if you're an atheist in the 15th century in Europe, and your pleasure is to extol on the sins of religion, then you probably do that in secret, because maybe your higher pleasure is to not die burning at the stake, and that takes a practical precendence, so you lie about your views to stay alive. Surely someone who does that cannot be thought of to be doing his "best", can he? Of course not. Atheism is, if nothing else, quite practical.

 

Don't buy into that "best" nonsense, it simply isn't true. Best is what an individual makes of the present circumstance, because there's nothing more to guide him than the mores of the day, and the goals at hand.

Edited May 30, 2017 by mightycpa

[BC1980]

Which "God" do you want to believe in? The ones that are taught by the major world religions, the ones the make you feel good...or the true living God? If you seek with all your heart and strength like it's a hidden treasure, God takes the initiative to reveal Himself to you. Humans cannot know God through their own effort and study. A good starting point is the Bible. But even the Bible, without the Spirit of God's guidance, will do you no good. Are you ready to learn who he really is? Are you willing to know--even if it means acknowledging things that make you uncomfortable? God will reveal himself if you seek his face and come humbly before him with empty hands and admit that you lack knowledge.

 

I do enjoy reading the Bible. I'm working my way through Mark right now. I don't see the Bible as literal truth or perfect. I see it as a collection of books with a bunch of authors who are trying to grapple with God and the big questions in life. What happens when you die? Why do bad things happen to good people? What is my purpose in life? I don't see the Bible as any more divinely inspired than writings by C. S. Lewis for instance. To me, the Bible is a great invitation to wrestle with what/who God is.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by God revealing himself to me. I think God is revealed everyday through a variety of means. Mainly nature for me. I'm in constant awe of nature.

[Justanaverageguy]

I'll accept that. But of course, the 'believer' will tell you that it is not enough to live the best life you possibly can. In fact, some will scoff at the suggestion and simply tell you that your belief in God is all you need....now whether that translates to doing one's best....that something they tend to dismiss.

 

Sure some maybe - but I think fundamentally its because they see their belief as providing them with additional power and grace to cope with life and live the best way possible. The issues only arrive when people insist "my way is best for everyone."

 

I was an atheist but now know their is a higher power - source - god - the universe - what ever you want to call it - but I still tried my very best to live a good life when I thought the idea of a god was a load of baloney. I personally feel having a true understanding of god has provided me with much more perspective on life .... but I can't force that on anyone. If someone had tried to force me when I was an ardent atheist it would have only served to make me annoyed and angry. Faith is a personal journey and forcing a belief on someone who hasn't had a direct experience or understanding is pointless and often counter productive.

 

And I mean even the bible says point blank - God doesn't care if you believe or don't believe. He cares how you live your life. If you live a good life - then you are sweet with the big man regardless of whether you believed or not - so my policy is always to focus on the most important thing - living a good life

 

To quote Romans 2:

God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Gr8fuln2020]

Sure some maybe - but I think fundamentally its because they see their belief as providing them with additional power and grace to cope with life and live the best way possible. The issues only arrive when people insist "my way is best for everyone."

 

I hear you and have always pursued or tried to, the idea of living the good life. But, traditional christianity will remind you that that is not enough. I'm not disagreeing with you, rather, many traditional christians, especially those that lean more right, will let you know that good deeds doesn't keep you from the fire.

 

I started an atheist, eventually became a part of the fundamentalist movement and soon after became a deist. I've made my transitions...and believe me, there is no greater danger to God's kingdom then those who sit in the pews.

 

Thanks for your insight.

Edited May 31, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Edited quote of entire previous post. ~JC

[TheFinalWord]

I do enjoy reading the Bible. I'm working my way through Mark right now. I don't see the Bible as literal truth or perfect. I see it as a collection of books with a bunch of authors who are trying to grapple with God and the big questions in life. What happens when you die? Why do bad things happen to good people? What is my purpose in life? I don't see the Bible as any more divinely inspired than writings by C. S. Lewis for instance. To me, the Bible is a great invitation to wrestle with what/who God is.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by God revealing himself to me. I think God is revealed everyday through a variety of means. Mainly nature for me. I'm in constant awe of nature.

 

You might enjoy Dr. Hugh Ross. He is a day-age creationists, so I know you probably won't agree with that part, but he does talk heavily about nature as the 67th book of the bible...

 

Hugh Ross - The Book of Nature

[mercy]

You might enjoy Dr. Hugh Ross. He is a day-age creationists, so I know you probably won't agree with that part, but he does talk heavily about nature as the 67th book of the bible...

 

Hugh Ross - The Book of Nature

 

You're still here! Such a Godly man you are. Much respect and many uplifting prayers for you!

 

H! TheFinalWord! Always in my prayers.

[TheFinalWord]

You're still here! Such a Godly man you are. Much respect and many uplifting prayers for you!

 

H! TheFinalWord! Always in my prayers.

 

Thanks Mercy! Good to see you in this forum

[jjgitties]

Hmm.. God and religion is a hard one to figure out. I think there is more than one correct way to be spiritual. I view things as there is a separation between my real self and my spiritual self. I think whats most important is how it makes "you" feel as a person about yourself. Does being spiritual/religious make you feel better about yourself and does it make you want to be a better person in your life? If it does, then you need it in your life. You dont need proof or verification that anything exists. The only proof you need is that it's important to you.

[umirano]

To me, the world seems depressing and pointless without the hope of God or an afterlife.

I don't know... There being no god explains a lot of the pointlessness. If there were a god, in a world as depressing and pointless (sometimes and seemingly), that'd be a lot more scary, no? That'd mean we'd be living in a world governed by a sociopathic superman who creates a world and its inhabitants and watches them suffer incessantly and eternally.

 

It seems a lot more coherent to find comfort in the knowledge that suffering is part of our natural world, and that, if we put our minds to it, we can actually do something about it, instead of having to rely on the sanity and empathy of a god.

 

I think a lot of this has been spurred on by seeing my parents get older and finding it very depressing that when they die, they may cease to exist and I'll never see them again.

 

Would you find comfort in the opposite? Having to spend eternity with your loved ones? Eternity is a very long time, even with people who I generally like...

 

Giving way to our offspring, making room for new ideas and new (human) creations while leaving our own marks (art created, knowledge uncovered, people influenced) doesn't sound like the absolute worst to me.

 

Part of me thinks religion is a complete sham that we made up

Is there a single argument for it not being made up? One that doesn't constitute one of these logical fallacies?

 

Another part of me feels that the idea that God doesn't exist is just as preposterous. How can the world be so complex without some kind of divine creator?

 

None of the complex phenomena that we've observed so far do require a god. Sure, complexity could be explained by a designer. But why assume one when

 

1. we don't need him (to explain complexity) and
   
2. have no reason to believe such a creator even exists?
   

 

I guess my main points are

 

1. The world isn't always pointless and depressing
   
2. When it is, it's a lot more comforting to know that there's very likely no supernatural psychopath orchestrating everyone's suffering
   
3. I take additional comfort in improving the world around me and joining others in doing so. Having to take care of our own environment is empowering and satisfying. In my opinion more so than having to rely on the mercy of a god.
   
4. Being dead is no problem. We were fine when before we were born and there's no reason to think this should be any different after we've died. Let's make most of it as long as we're around. The promise of an afterlife, eternal bliss (what a big-mouthed promise!) or suffering in hell (what a sick threat!) both seem equally unattractive to me.
   

 

Are believers better off than non-believers?

Religiosity is linked to poverty (Wikipedia) and to a number of health hazards (Psychology Today).

[BC1980]

I don't know... There being no god explains a lot of the pointlessness. If there were a god, in a world as depressing and pointless (sometimes and seemingly), that'd be a lot more scary, no? That'd mean we'd be living in a world governed by a sociopathic superman who creates a world and its inhabitants and watches them suffer incessantly and eternally.

 

It seems a lot more coherent to find comfort in the knowledge that suffering is part of our natural world, and that, if we put our minds to it, we can actually do something about it, instead of having to rely on the sanity and empathy of a god.

 

Oh I completely agree with a lot of what you are saying. My aunt passed away from cancer a few days ago, and I keep thinking, what kind of a god would allow the type of suffering she endured? And through absolutely no fault of her own. I like the part you bolded. Job is one of my favorite books in the Bible, but the portrait of God in Job is that of a sociopathic narcissist who toys with people's lives for the simple reason that he can. The first passages in Job are stunning. Odd as it is, that picture of God resonates with me, and I find it comforting. Comforting because it does provide me with an adequate explanation for suffering.

 

Ecclesiastes is another interesting book that is about the pointlessness of life. Of course, people cherry pick verses from Job and Ecclesiastes that don't take the entire book into context.

[BC1980]

Is there a single argument for it not being made up? One that doesn't constitute one of these logical fallacies?

 

I have never been able to find one, and I've looked. Trust me, I've looked, but I always end back up at square one. There is zero proof that the Resurrection is based on factual events because, to consider that it is possible, you have to have proof in the supernatural. And there is absolutely zero evidence of that.

 

I think that dealing with death and the afterlife are the only reasons religion exists at all. With that reason, you have no need for it.

[umirano]

I think that dealing with death and the afterlife are the only reasons religion exists at all. With that reason, you have no need for it.

 

I agree. It's like a drug, as in painkiller. Those are a two-edged sword, as we know. There are some arguments to be made for the utility of religion (personal, societal), as well as many against it. None are to be made for its veracity though.

 

In my opinion the toothpaste is out of the tube, and it's impossible to put it back in. Instead of trying to make religion work, despite it flying into the face of reality and despite its negative effects on society and people, I believe we should be looking at how to govern ourselves as a species and how to make sense of the world using our mental faculties, freed of any sort of dogma. I believe there can be a lot of genuine satisfaction be drawn from a purely human, i.e. humanistic, approach to ethical problems as well as from a scientific approach to the mysteries of our universe.

[BC1980]

I agree. It's like a drug, as in painkiller. Those are a two-edged sword, as we know. There are some arguments to be made for the utility of religion (personal, societal), as well as many against it. None are to be made for its veracity though.

 

In my opinion the toothpaste is out of the tube, and it's impossible to put it back in. Instead of trying to make religion work, despite it flying into the face of reality and despite its negative effects on society and people, I believe we should be looking at how to govern ourselves as a species and how to make sense of the world using our mental faculties, freed of any sort of dogma. I believe there can be a lot of genuine satisfaction be drawn from a purely human, i.e. humanistic, approach to ethical problems as well as from a scientific approach to the mysteries of our universe.

 

I think religion does do a lot of good, but it also does a lot of bad. I saw some article on FB claiming that God is against vaccines. That is downright dangerous thinking IMO. Religion has long been used as a tool of suppression against women as well. That being said, I do think that religion is an effective coping mechanism. It actually works very well in that regard, and I use coping mechanism in a broad sense. I think that if it comforts anyone to believe in an afterlife or to make sense of the world, that is a positive function of religion. As long as you aren't browbeating your views of life and death onto anyone else it's fine. Religion has also inspired some great literature as well.

[umirano]

The thought of an afterlife doesn't comfort me, but apparently it does other people. I find that hard to understand. Even if it did comfort me, I don't see how I could force myself to believe it without good reason, i.e. tangible evidence.

[BC1980]

The thought of an afterlife doesn't comfort me, but apparently it does other people. I find that hard to understand. Even if it did comfort me, I don't see how I could force myself to believe it without good reason, i.e. tangible evidence.

 

 

I'm the exact opposite. LOL. I wish I could understand how to find comfort in no afterlife.

[Justanaverageguy]

I'm the exact opposite. LOL. I wish I could understand how to find comfort in no afterlife.

 

I feel like maybe your looking in the wrong place for comfort I think perhaps exploring some alternate philosophies on how to look at life could help. One of my favorite philosophers Alan Watts I think could be a good start for you to give you an alternative perspective on how to look at life. To take the emphasis off what happens at the end of the story .... and place it back where it maters. On what happens now - what happens today

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Arieswoman]

BC1980,

I will confess that I haven't rad this entire thread I am just responding to your original questions.

 

Have you ever considered talking to a Priest, Pastor, Minister etc about your intellectual dilemma ?

 

Maybe you should try it?

[umirano]

I'm the exact opposite. LOL. I wish I could understand how to find comfort in no afterlife.

 

It's like finding comfort in "no tooth fairy" or "no Atlantis" or "no hell". It's just not there, why bother with it, comfort or not.

 

What does the afterlife offer that real life doesn't? I have no evidence of an entity that could credibly claim to provide me with "eternal bliss with my loved ones", so I better make do with what I have. One life. I shape it. It will end, like pretty much everything else in this universe. That's fine. 80 years or so is enough to explore the world, make a bunch of friends and have positive encounters with my fellow men.

[Chardonnay Renée]

If you cannot find a way to believe in God, then there's perhaps a reason which you're yet to come to terms with for why this is so.

 

I liked the idea of God, as a child. I, too, wanted to beleive. I wanted to believe that I'd never be separated spiritually from my loved ones.

 

Whether or not we have a soul that will reunite with loved ones in an afterlife, I can't say for certain. There's simply no evidence to suggest either way.

 

I gave up on the monotheistic model years ago. The idea of the Abrahamic God, the Book of Genesis - it's all way too implausible for me to devote myself to.

 

I would describe myself as agnostic. Science has explained many things in the universe, so I will back the scientific method to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

I embrace life and what it has to offer. I'm kind, caring, generous and empathetic - not because I'm told to be, but because to be me is to be everything that I am.

[BC1980]

I feel like maybe your looking in the wrong place for comfort I think perhaps exploring some alternate philosophies on how to look at life could help. One of my favorite philosophers Alan Watts I think could be a good start for you to give you an alternative perspective on how to look at life. To take the emphasis off what happens at the end of the story .... and place it back where it maters. On what happens now - what happens today

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you! Wonderful videos. The first one especially.

 

Save

[BC1980]

BC1980,

I will confess that I haven't rad this entire thread I am just responding to your original questions.

 

Have you ever considered talking to a Priest, Pastor, Minister etc about your intellectual dilemma ?

 

Maybe you should try it?

 

I have not. I go to a big church, and I don't really know the ministers there. It would be interesting though.

Save

[aurelius99]

I have not. I go to a big church, and I don't really know the ministers there. It would be interesting though.

Save

 

Watch out for megachurches. Better yet, watch out for ALL churches in America. We are living in the last days where you have probably less than a 5% chance of finding a church that teaches the truth. Yes, it's that bad. And Jesus himself said it would happen.

 

What's so deceptive about it is that most people walk around in these churches with swell smiles on their faces and say all kinds of Christianese like "God bless you" and "in the name of Jesus". Isaiah said such people honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from him.

 

Read your Bible. Pray. And seek the wisdom that only the Holy Spirit can give. God promises to reveal ALL TRUTH to you if you seek him with a sincere and humble heart. But please do not get sucked into a worldly, institutionalized church. God lives in a temple not made with human hands (Acts 17:24). No church system can help usher in the kingdom, as they like to say. God is the one who decides when and where his kingdom will come. Humans are more likely to just get in the way. I have zero faith in humanity but complete faith in God's goodness. Look to Him. Do not put your faith in church. YOU are the church--if you believe in him and repent of this world.

[BC1980]

Watch out for megachurches. Better yet, watch out for ALL churches in America. We are living in the last days where you have probably less than a 5% chance of finding a church that teaches the truth. Yes, it's that bad. And Jesus himself said it would happen.

 

What's so deceptive about it is that most people walk around in these churches with swell smiles on their faces and say all kinds of Christianese like "God bless you" and "in the name of Jesus". Isaiah said such people honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from him.

 

Read your Bible. Pray. And seek the wisdom that only the Holy Spirit can give. God promises to reveal ALL TRUTH to you if you seek him with a sincere and humble heart. But please do not get sucked into a worldly, institutionalized church. God lives in a temple not made with human hands (Acts 17:24). No church system can help usher in the kingdom, as they like to say. God is the one who decides when and where his kingdom will come. Humans are more likely to just get in the way. I have zero faith in humanity but complete faith in God's goodness. Look to Him. Do not put your faith in church. YOU are the church--if you believe in him and repent of this world.

 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying about the institutionalized church. I don't trust it. I think there are good people there, and I actually think the church I go to now is overall pretty good. But I've heard some horror stories and been to some churches that were definitely not healthy places. I think there is good and bad like most things in life. Sadly, a lot of people have been traumatized by certain churches and religious figures.

 

I probably have a different view of the Bible than you though. I think the Bible is a book where many different authors struggle with God and the big questions in life. That's why there are so many different viewpoints in the Bible. I don't think it's anymore special or divine than something written by C.S. Lewis for example. I think that closing the canon is really more of a practical measure than anything.

[BC1980]

It's like finding comfort in "no tooth fairy" or "no Atlantis" or "no hell". It's just not there, why bother with it, comfort or not.

 

What does the afterlife offer that real life doesn't? I have no evidence of an entity that could credibly claim to provide me with "eternal bliss with my loved ones", so I better make do with what I have. One life. I shape it. It will end, like pretty much everything else in this universe. That's fine. 80 years or so is enough to explore the world, make a bunch of friends and have positive encounters with my fellow men.

 

I have no idea!

[aurelius99]

I have no idea!

 

Being in the direct presence of the creator of the universe. That, itself, is the reward and true end goal of why we were created. The only people who would say "meh" to this are those who don't know God. These people would rather sit in front of their surround sound entertainment system watching the Kardashians.