Want to believe in God but can't

[Timshel]

l8estnews, are you a practicing Catholic? Do you attend service, confession, take communion, bible study? Are you also in therapy? I'm sorry if you have already addressed these questions and I have missed.

 

I was also raised in a strict religious family. My dad was raised Orthodox Catholic, his grandfather was a priest, but later converted to Methodist.

In my middle twenties I had a major depression and during that time established a very personal relationship with God that became my own and outside of all religious doctrine that I had been previously taught.

Technically, I am a Christian and I do not dismiss the Bible on whole. Yet I have developed my trust in God outside of the church and organized religion.

 

It was a long and uncomfortable process letting go of the Christian establishment and I am wide open to God in all the ways the world around reveals God to be. I'm beyond horrible at explaining myself, it's kind of like being in tune to a frequency that only I can hear....LOL! It sounds kooky and it's ok if it is, but I have to say that it is incredibly Serene.

 

I should zip it when it comes to others expressions of faith because I sincerely respect people who are respectful and kind to others no matter their religious beliefs.

Reading your post made me think of the dark night of the soul. Going through difficult times will often bring a person closer to God than ever before. I think this will happen for you as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul

https://www.eckharttolle.com/newsletter/october-2011

 

As far as God according to Timshel, I am no one, so apologize if I was crass. Finding peace with God and inner peace with oneself is all that matters.

[BC1980]

Recommend to read up on Tacitus...

 

The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate, and the existence of early Christians in Rome in one page of his final work, Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.[1]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

 

Thanks for the link. I believe Jesus existed. Even the most liberal scholars believe he existed. The NT has been very accurately transmitted over time too. There are some instances of redaction, but they don't change the really important stuff.

[Justanaverageguy]

So this thread has grown and had many wonderful responses. I wondering what the original poster - BC1980 - position is now ?

 

Many people have provided advice .... what are your next steps ? How do you move forward from here ?

Edited July 21, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[BC1980]

So this thread has grown and had many wonderful responses. I wondering what the original poster - BC1980 - position is now ?

 

Many people have provided advice .... what are your next steps ? How do you move forward from here ?

 

This thread definitely turned out to be a great thread. I have to thank everyone that contributed. Going forward, I think I have come to accept that faith is something you either have or you don't. And I just don't have it at this point in my life. I have had faith at other times in my life though, so I know it's real thing. I've come to accept that I won't find all the answers and definitive proof of God's existence, ect. I'm still not really excited about that fact, but I've made some peace with it.

 

I still pray almost daily, but I always wonder if anyone is on the other side. I've always struggled with prayer though, so that's not new. I've never quite figured out what to say. I've actually gotten into mediation in the past several months, which has been great to alleviate stress and recenter my day. I'm still read the Bible quite often, almost daily. I've recently decided to start reading entire books of the Bible from start to finish, and that has been illuminating. I still go to church when I can, but it's been more difficult in the past few years because I work a lot of weekends. That will change in about a year, and I hope to get into a more regular routine with church. I do think going to church gives me an anchor and a sense of community that I don't have anywhere else.

 

But yeah, I'm still on the journey, and I guess that will be life long. Maybe the big takeaway is that this thread has helped me make peace with the journey and realize I'm not alone. I hope people will still contribute to the thread if they feel compelled to because this journey is definitely ongoing for me.

 

Save

[Gr8fuln2020]

This thread definitely turned out to be a great thread. I have to thank everyone that contributed. Going forward, I think I have come to accept that faith is something you either have or you don't. And I just don't have it at this point in my life. I have had faith at other times in my life though, so I know it's real thing. I've come to accept that I won't find all the answers and definitive proof of God's existence, ect. I'm still not really excited about that fact, but I've made some peace with it.

 

I still pray almost daily, but I always wonder if anyone is on the other side. I've always struggled with prayer though, so that's not new. I've never quite figured out what to say. I've actually gotten into mediation in the past several months, which has been great to alleviate stress and recenter my day. I'm still read the Bible quite often, almost daily. I've recently decided to start reading entire books of the Bible from start to finish, and that has been illuminating. I still go to church when I can, but it's been more difficult in the past few years because I work a lot of weekends. That will change in about a year, and I hope to get into a more regular routine with church. I do think going to church gives me an anchor and a sense of community that I don't have anywhere else.

 

But yeah, I'm still on the journey, and I guess that will be life long. Maybe the big takeaway is that this thread has helped me make peace with the journey and realize I'm not alone. I hope people will still contribute to the thread if they feel compelled to because this journey is definitely ongoing for me.

 

Save

 

I applaud your honesty. I too struggle with my relationship with God, but at least it is a struggle and never the less, remains a relationship.

 

I came into the Christian faith via fundamental christian path and that both enlightened and hampered my growth. I personally have an healthy degree of suspicion for those who claim to have a clear and unquestioning foundation for their faith. I find it shockingly convenient and w/o fail, with brief conversation, find that they are often incapable of reconciling their religious convictions with the natural world in which they live and interact daily.

 

Keep the journey and I hope you find the answers you seek.

[TheFinalWord]

But yeah, I'm still on the journey, and I guess that will be life long. Maybe the big takeaway is that this thread has helped me make peace with the journey and realize I'm not alone. I hope people will still contribute to the thread if they feel compelled to because this journey is definitely ongoing for me.

 

I admire your transparency and honesty. It's been insightful to follow your spiritual journey!

 

A sermon for your consideration:

 

Edited July 22, 2017 by TheFinalWord

[GeekLover]

Hum... I don't believe in God, and I never have.

 

I tried mightily to believe once - I was going through very difficult personal problems and really wanted to believe. I felt it would make everything more tolerable.

 

But in the end I failed, I could explain every "sign" away with logic. I have never been one to have blind Faith, and I simply couldn't muster it.

 

I am sure the eventual passing of my parents will test me (I am such a daddy's girl - it's going to ruin me when he goes).

 

Unlike you, I do not see the world as a dark place, I am a positive person, and see an immense amount of beauty in the world.

 

For me, science can explain the vast majority of the natural world - it's the suffering and darkness that makes me further question how a "supreme being" could allow so much horror.

 

I am often reminded of a 80's song:

 

https://play.google.com/music/preview/Tre2i5on5xr2m7lacw7rcruzr2e?lyrics=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=lyrics&pcampaignid=kp-lyrics

 

Dear God, hope you get the letter ......

But all the people that you made in your image

See them starving on their feet

'Cause they don't get enough to eat from God

I can't believe in you....

 

We all need a big reduction in amount of tears

And all the people that you made in your image

See them fighting in the street

'Cause they can't make opinions meet about God....

 

I won't believe in heaven or hell

No saints, no sinners, no devil as well

No pearly gates, no thorny crown

You're always letting us humans down

The wars you bring, the babes you drown

Those lost at sea and never found

And it's the same the whole world 'round

The hurt I see helps to compound

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost

Is just somebody's unholy hoax

And if you're up there you'll perceive

That my heart's here upon my sleeve

If there's one thing I don't believe in

 

It's you

Dear God

 

I feel like this is exactly where I'm at right now. I always went to church as a young girl, but mostly because my parents made me. As I got older, I fought with them about going. I had better things to do as a teen. Then, once I was out of the house, I didn't go at all.

 

But religion is something that I seem to be thinking about again. This post is EXACTLY how I feel. There are so many things I don't believe and that I know are explained perfectly well with science. But I feel like I want faith in SOMETHING. I feel there is SOMETHING out there that can fill some holes in my life. I'm on the road right now to discovering just what that is. But the once thing I never thought I would ever consider was missing from my life is religion. I'm not sure that's it just yet...however I'm starting to open myself up to the possibility.

[Gr8fuln2020]

I feel like this is exactly where I'm at right now. I always went to church as a young girl, but mostly because my parents made me. As I got older, I fought with them about going. I had better things to do as a teen. Then, once I was out of the house, I didn't go at all.

 

But religion is something that I seem to be thinking about again. This post is EXACTLY how I feel. There are so many things I don't believe and that I know are explained perfectly well with science. But I feel like I want faith in SOMETHING. I feel there is SOMETHING out there that can fill some holes in my life. I'm on the road right now to discovering just what that is. But the once thing I never thought I would ever consider was missing from my life is religion. I'm not sure that's it just yet...however I'm starting to open myself up to the possibility.

 

Are you missing 'religion' or a faith? Something to believe in beyond what we see here on this mortal world? I think the two are not interchangeable. This disconnect between our natural world and science is something that I have long considered. Science explains and helps to satiate the physical world that we live in and allows us the opportunity to manipulate our understanding of this, mostly predictable, natural world for good or evil. I said this before, but our faith, in no way, erases the authenticity of our understanding of science and science, in no way, diminishes our subjective yearning to hold to a faith.

 

The problems is when one or the other tries to undermine the other to the point of absolute confidence and totality.

 

There have been and always will be those who adhere to the intelligent design concept. Not because science supports it, rather, b/c, my personal faith, independent of institutionalized religion, provides me the luxury to do so.

[GeekLover]

Are you missing 'religion' or a faith? Something to believe in beyond what we see here on this mortal world? I think the two are not interchangeable. This disconnect between our natural world and science is something that I have long considered. Science explains and helps to satiate the physical world that we live in and allows us the opportunity to manipulate our understanding of this, mostly predictable, natural world for good or evil. I said this before, but our faith, in no way, erases the authenticity of our understanding of science and science, in no way, diminishes our subjective yearning to hold to a faith.

 

The problems is when one or the other tries to undermine the other to the point of absolute confidence and totality.

 

There have been and always will be those who adhere to the intelligent design concept. Not because science supports it, rather, b/c, my personal faith, independent of institutionalized religion, provides me the luxury to do so.

 

Good question. I think that's exactly what I'm pondering. What's missing? Perhaps it's religion, because I think I do have "faith". I think you're right-faith and religion can not be interchanged. One can have faith in something, but not in a "religious" sense. One can have "hope". I believe those words are more interchangeable. Perhaps right now, for me, I am exploring where I'm placing my "faith/hope", but not necessarily ready to explore religion? Or maybe I'm opening myself up to the idea that I can have faith IN religion?

[Gr8fuln2020]

Good question. I think that's exactly what I'm pondering. What's missing? Perhaps it's religion, because I think I do have "faith". I think you're right-faith and religion can not be interchanged. One can have faith in something, but not in a "religious" sense. One can have "hope". I believe those words are more interchangeable. Perhaps right now, for me, I am exploring where I'm placing my "faith/hope", but not necessarily ready to explore religion? Or maybe I'm opening myself up to the idea that I can have faith IN religion?

 

My own personal journey has been consistently clear on one thing, if any....having faith in religion, the collective institution, is disappointing.

[GeekLover]

My own personal journey has been consistently clear on one thing, if any....having faith in religion, the collective institution, is disappointing.

 

Thank you.

[l8estnews]

Recommend to read up on Tacitus...

 

The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate, and the existence of early Christians in Rome in one page of his final work, Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.[1]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

 

 

Thank you for these links. But I have read about Tacitus before and I don't consider it as the most convincing piece of evidence. I guess my mistake since I did say in my post that there is NO mention of anything Christ-related outside the gospel and technically, this can be considered.

 

But anyway, just to give my final piece about the thread:

 

1.) I just realized I can never be an atheist. Me being raised religiously is so ingrained to my being to ever consider that GOD is not real. However, I will have to re-introduce God to me in a manner that I consider as realistic. Meaning, Roman Catholicism is no longer for me.

 

God for me is:

 

1.) That "Supreme Intelligence" that somehow "created" the universe.

2.) That force that doesn't concern itself to human affairs.

 

There is no anthropomorphic God, No Personal God, and No Talking God. God in the Bible is not the "God" that exists in these times. Because if we continue to believe that God will intervene in our silly lives, we will always feel disappointed and let down. Thus, not believing.

 

I guess my approach is just accept that God is:

 

1.) Silent.

2.) A Force we can try to feel and connect with but never expect to connect back to us (more like a fire in a very cold night. We shall bask in its warmth without expecting it to really take away the Cold Night)

3.) Make the most out of our lives without thinking the world owes us anything. Just glad to be alive and live each day as your last.

 

Quite liberating, really.

[wmacbride]

I thought I would make a thread about this ongoing issue in my life because I don't feel comfortable talking to anyone about it. I've always had doubts about the existence of God, but those doubts never seemed to matter until the past few years. To me, the world seems depressing and pointless without the hope of God or an afterlife. I think a lot of this has been spurred on by seeing my parents get older and finding it very depressing that when they die, they may cease to exist and I'll never see them again.

 

Part of me thinks religion is a complete sham that we made up because we are all scared to die. Heck, we spend our entire lives fighting against death. Another part of me feels that the idea that God doesn't exist is just as preposterous. How can the world be so complex without some kind of divine creator? I'm not really interested in debating if God exists or not. I'm looking for people who have similar struggles who would like to share how they cope. I feel like my mind is full of strife on a daily basis, and it's kind of affecting me negatively at this point.

 

I don't consider myself an atheist, more of an agnostic. If there is a supreme being, i don't think that I am capable of even being able to begin to comprehend their actions. "Mine is not to know the mind of God".

 

Sometimes I'd like to believe there is someone at the helm controlling everything an I can just let go. It wold be is much easier. Then I think back to some of the suffering of innocent people and I can't understand how a kind and loving god would ever let that happen.

 

There are so many wonderful things in the world that it's sometimes hard to believe random chnace made it all happen, then other times, it all makes sense to me.

 

In the end, I really believe there is an inherent need in humanity to try and reach beyond the brief span of our lives and find a deeper meaning. For some, that' religion, others worship at the altar of logic and science.

 

After my om passed away, I spent a lot of time reflecting on her life and wondering where "she" is now. I'd like to believe that some part of he lingers on somehow, and that we're more than like the mermaids conceived by Anderson that we don't just become like foam on the waves of the sea. I'd like for my life to mean something.

 

In the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't, so perhaps I'll follow the Emerosn definition of having lived a successful life instead. I have three healthy children, my garden patch and an ordinary but peaceful life.

[Justanaverageguy]

I still pray almost daily, but I always wonder if anyone is on the other side. I've always struggled with prayer though, so that's not new. I've never quite figured out what to say. I've actually gotten into mediation in the past several months, which has been great to alleviate stress and recenter my day. I'm still read the Bible quite often, almost daily. I've recently decided to start reading entire books of the Bible from start to finish, and that has been illuminating. I still go to church when I can, but it's been more difficult in the past few years because I work a lot of weekends. That will change in about a year, and I hope to get into a more regular routine with church. I do think going to church gives me an anchor and a sense of community that I don't have anywhere else.

 

But yeah, I'm still on the journey, and I guess that will be life long. Maybe the big takeaway is that this thread has helped me make peace with the journey and realize I'm not alone. I hope people will still contribute to the thread if they feel compelled to because this journey is definitely ongoing for me.

 

Yes definitely a life long journey - and in my opinion a journey that lasts many lives. I hope you continue on the path and continue to grow and expand your practice. Don't be afraid to experiment and draw outside the lines. Religion has provided you with a great base to work from but its up to you to expand that base - as long as your intent is pure you will be lead in the right direction

 

In terms of prayer - I don't pray in maybe the traditional sense of talking to god and asking for something (well actually I lie I do when things are not going how I want) but I consider any method that uncovers or reveals more of your divine nature to be a form of prayer. Recently what I've found tremendous benefit from is chanting. Pretty old school but I do it in a singing format as some of my friends are Kirtan performers so its actually a lot of fun. The Kirtan format comes from Hindu traditions but you'll find similar concepts within the Catholic and Christian churches with Gregorian chants or just singing Hymns. Probably the difference between the historical chants and a modern hymn is that in Hindu tradition the words used in chants were very very specific. In the Sanskrit language the sounds of words were studied extensively and they studied the effect the sounds had on living things very closely - the names given to god were those that had been found to have a very specific vibration which when recited had a positive effect on the human body and helped to awaken their positive or divine attributes. Thus god had many names - but the importance and commonality of the name was the effect the sound had on the person reciting it.

 

Chanting or mantra recitation when meditating is not something you do once and go "wow" now I get it ..... its something where if you keep up a sustained practice you will begin to notice subtle changes in your nature - in your understanding - in the way you interact with others. The same idea can be thought of with recitation of the rosary. So for me the main benefit of prayer is not asking for something and then - "getting what you want" - but instead it is a practice of transformation where you actually get what god wants. A better version of you

 

Some stuff on Kirtan if your interested by chance.

 

Intro to Kirtan -

 

Aum vs Amen some interesting stuff on similarities between the religions -

 

Plus one of my fav Kirtan songs -

 

I'm sure if you do some research you can find some nice Christian equivalents if that's what you prefer.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[BC1980]

Sometimes I'd like to believe there is someone at the helm controlling everything an I can just let go. It wold be is much easier. Then I think back to some of the suffering of innocent people and I can't understand how a kind and loving god would ever let that happen.

There are so many wonderful things in the world that it's sometimes hard to believe random chnace made it all happen, then other times, it all makes sense to me.

 

In the end, I really believe there is an inherent need in humanity to try and reach beyond the brief span of our lives and find a deeper meaning. For some, that' religion, others worship at the altar of logic and science.

 

It seems beyond comprehension that a loving God would either be the source of suffering or sit back and refuse to intervene. That is something I will never comprehend. I don't buy into the idea that our suffering is supposed to be used to glorify God. That's cruel and sick.

 

But I also agree with you that there are so many amazing things in this world that it's hard to believe God does not exist. Back when I used to hike a lot, I would sometimes look at the views from the tops of mountains and wonder how God could not exist. It also seems unfathomable that when we die, we simply cease to exist. Maybe that's just because I was raised as a Christian, so I always had the idea that our consciousness lives on.

[Timshel]

This is the impasse for me, I can't understand why we think we are above the beauty/harshness around us. I feel humbled and with everything that has caused me pain, I never think, why me or us. I don't believe God has anything to do with our frailty, our callousness, our ignorance.

 

I think, we are a part of a whole and no more or less. Why does God have to be cruel because in our moment of consciousness there is cruelty? As though we are not a part of everything and infinity. Why is this God's fault?

 

I don't know, I understand the question but honestly, it implies so much arrogance. No, I am not trying to be confrontational...this is my sincere belief.

 

When people say, why is this happening, I think, well why not? We can get eaten by an alligator, or shark. We could get zapped by lightening, bitten by a venomous snake, get in a tornado or hurricane....on and on the random threats and then there is the violence that people do to each other. The creative ways that we have killed each other over the centuries.

The list is endless and it is the same as it always has been.

None of these things have changed.

 

The earth holds it's beauty, after all these years. What do we bring to the table?

[l8estnews]

This is the impasse for me, I can't understand why we think we are above the beauty/harshness around us. I feel humbled and with everything that has caused me pain, I never think, why me or us. I don't believe God has anything to do with our frailty, our callousness, our ignorance.

 

I guess it all boils down to what has been taught to us. We were taught that we will be the "Sheperd" to all things made. That God will protect you if you just pray enough.

 

There was an on-going slogan even now that says "A family that prays together, stays together" in my country. Now, I understand how ridiculous this is.

 

But you are right, the Bible never promised us that no harm will ever befall us. What the Bible actually says is that God will, "one day, wipe away every tear from our eyes, and he'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth." (Revelation 21:3-4)

 

Clearly in that text, there will be suffering in this Earth. Oh well....

[Timshel]

Not oh well, when you see, then you rise and you do. You do good, if you are, that's what you do.

It comes from inside, you don't need a pat.

[wmacbride]

This is the impasse for me, I can't understand why we think we are above the beauty/harshness around us. I feel humbled and with everything that has caused me pain, I never think, why me or us. I don't believe God has anything to do with our frailty, our callousness, our ignorance.

 

I think, we are a part of a whole and no more or less. Why does God have to be cruel because in our moment of consciousness there is cruelty? As though we are not a part of everything and infinity. Why is this God's fault?

 

I don't know, I understand the question but honestly, it implies so much arrogance. No, I am not trying to be confrontational...this is my sincere belief.

 

When people say, why is this happening, I think, well why not? We can get eaten by an alligator, or shark. We could get zapped by lightening, bitten by a venomous snake, get in a tornado or hurricane....on and on the random threats and then there is the violence that people do to each other. The creative ways that we have killed each other over the centuries.

The list is endless and it is the same as it always has been.

None of these things have changed.

 

The earth holds it's beauty, after all these years. What do we bring to the table?

 

I'm sorry, but this brings to mind the question of the suffering of the innocent.

 

This is part of where i get stuck. How can a kind and loving god allow a child, who surely has done nothing to deserve it, suffer through disease, horrific abuse, neglect, starvation, etc.?

 

The explanation I once heard or this is that ( at least in the christian system of beliefs) we are condemned by original sin. If I accept that, then humanity is paying for what one person did thousands of years ago. The bible tells us humans will forever be punished ( unless we repent).

 

The same book also tells us how important it is to forgive. To me, those two ideas just don't gel. I know some are able to accept this paradox, but I just can't.

[Timshel]

When, in our knowledge of history have the innocent been spared? In biblical time and before and after until this very moment, when have the innocent ever been spared? How are we different from any other time in history that we know of?

 

We don't make cave drawings anymore? There are some humans that exist untouched by wifi. We do still carve our name on fairly everything. Trees, boats, planes, our luggage and the clothes that we wear and people walk into caves and feel the need to leave a mark.

 

What has changed for humanity wmacbride? We have made God in our image. We have made God us.

 

I have had a few experiences that showed me that 1. Definitely not alone and 2. I am not alone, meaning that my only significance was to know that and be super humble about it.

 

Why does God allow the innocent to suffer? In my opinion, if we are energy (we are) and energy isn't extinguished (it isn't) then as harsh as it is, why would God step in and say, 'Hey, these conscious beings over there, yeah, the ones with the Kardarshians, botox and fake boobs. The energies that kill each other like muskrats thinking that the world and all of existence is about what is behind their nose....yeah them. Umm...make sure nothing bad happens to them ever..yeah.'

[knabe]

I guess it all boils down to what has been taught to us. We were taught that we will be the "Sheperd" to all things made. That God will protect you if you just pray enough.

 

There was an on-going slogan even now that says "A family that prays together, stays together" in my country. Now, I understand how ridiculous this is.

 

But you are right, the Bible never promised us that no harm will ever befall us. What the Bible actually says is that God will, "one day, wipe away every tear from our eyes, and he'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth." (Revelation 21:3-4)

 

Clearly in that text, there will be suffering in this Earth. Oh well....

 

Actually, this idea that God should prevent all bad things from happening is not at all Biblical. IF one subscribe to faith that supposedly emulates the Bible, then that means we live in a fallen world, and that means bad things happen. Yes, even to good people. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. Even Jesus - who some seem to think is the ultimate good vibe hippie - says that in this world we will have hardships.

 

And what about others' suffering? If we pray "Lord, please let the hurricane move west of us," what about the people who live to the west? We are very self-centered as a rule. We pray for our sibling to get that heart transplant, but that basically means someone else has to die.

 

I am not sure who has seen Bruce Almighty, but I remember when he opened God's Email (LOVE the YAWEEEE yahoo sound on that lol). He is overwhelmed, so he just answers all prayers "yes." You know, to make everyone happy. Then of course there's an uproar because EVERYONE won the lottery, and so they all got about 16 cents or something.

 

We don't just want a god we can fully understand; we want a god we can control.

 

That isn't how any of this works.

[Gr8fuln2020]

A healthy conversation regarding god, faith. Good to see.

 

The belief system, especially that of christianity, imho, is a 'paradox'. I have often found believers to do an abysmally poor job reconciling the good vs. evil, guilty vs. innocent scenarios.

 

The bible clearly indicates that God 'allows' for both the good and evil to flourish in this world. I find this idea problematic. Why place us in a world FULL of contradictions and yet play a laissez-faire role? Why allow the corrupt nature of mankind to define his/her (god) intentions and then punish those for believing in them?

 

OMG, I can go on and on... someone said that we create God in our own image. Absolutely. People have no answers to the paradoxical nature of faith so they create their own to assuage themselves. This is where and why faiths today, are inundated with hypocrisy. These are not divinely influenced responses to humankind's needs, rather, simply, man-made.

[BC1980]

OMG, I can go on and on... someone said that we create God in our own image. Absolutely. People have no answers to the paradoxical nature of faith so they create their own to assuage themselves. This is where and why faiths today, are inundated with hypocrisy. These are not divinely influenced responses to humankind's needs, rather, simply, man-made.

 

So true, and what we know of God is through text (the Bible) or personal experience. And those two things can cause us to come to vastly different interpretations. If there is a universal/objective truth, how do we access that? How can I say my reading of a text or my personal experience is the objective truth, and how can anyone else say theirs is? I mean, a lot of the NT is based on Paul's personal experience, and we get a lot of our doctrine from his experience. But who is to say that Paul's interpretation of anything is correct?

 

My background is in literature, and one of my favorite professors in grad school posed this question: does the reader write the text? I think the answer is yes, and it goes back to your idea that we all make God in our own image. We all write our own Bible too.

 

Faith is all about emotions. It's what you feel. It has zero to do with logic/reason. The arguments that are made in apologetics are pathetically easy to bat down at every turn. The more I read apologetics, the less faith I had. Because I had then seen behind the curtain, and I realized that apologetics had next to nothing with which to defend faith.

[BC1980]

Actually, this idea that God should prevent all bad things from happening is not at all Biblical. IF one subscribe to faith that supposedly emulates the Bible, then that means we live in a fallen world, and that means bad things happen. Yes, even to good people. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. Even Jesus - who some seem to think is the ultimate good vibe hippie - says that in this world we will have hardships.

 

Certainly. In the OT, God is the cause of much hardship. Look at the book of Job. In the first chapter, God recommends that Satan bring pain on Job. God actually offers Job up. In Exodus, God commands the Israelites to kill anyone in their family that has not been worshiping God, and God murders the Egyptian children. It's pretty sobering if you actually believe that stuff happened. I always say that NT God got a facelift. I think the Bible is just some person's interpretation of God though. The OT is interesting as literature, but I'd be fine with throwing the entire thing out of the Christian canon.

[knabe]

A healthy conversation regarding god, faith. Good to see.

 

The belief system, especially that of christianity, imho, is a 'paradox'. I have often found believers to do an abysmally poor job reconciling the good vs. evil, guilty vs. innocent scenarios.

 

The bible clearly indicates that God 'allows' for both the good and evil to flourish in this world. I find this idea problematic. Why place us in a world FULL of contradictions and yet play a laissez-faire role? Why allow the corrupt nature of mankind to define his/her (god) intentions and then punish those for believing in them?

 

OMG, I can go on and on... someone said that we create God in our own image. Absolutely. People have no answers to the paradoxical nature of faith so they create their own to assuage themselves. This is where and why faiths today, are inundated with hypocrisy. These are not divinely influenced responses to humankind's needs, rather, simply, man-made.

 

It is hard to explain this in a way that would be likely to hold water for someone who does NOT subscribe to faith. But I'll try from my own perspective.

 

The first problem with this is the idea that God placed us in a problem world. According to the belief a Christian professes, the world was perfect when God created it. It was man who screwed it up. We can get into the debate about why God created man knowing he would sin....and I will be honest that I do NOT have the answer for that. At any rate, in this belief system, God did not put us in a miserable place, we made it miserable by our choices. This is reflected in our world today. many people are miserable as a result of their choices....or someone else's. Not all, but many.

 

The second is the idea that just because God doesn't fix everything or prevent everything the way WE think He should means he is laissez-faire? I mean, we expect to be able to do and feel and choose and say what we want and have free will....but God is supposed to swoop in and intervene when something WE do not agree with or understand happens? What if what we deem bad conflicts with what someone else deems good? What if a hurricane on the coast means the lessening of a drought in the midwest? Who gets to decide?

 

We think in terms of our own world and our own perceptions. And that is how we assume God "should" or "shouldn't" act. Surely you can see the inconsistency in THIS view as well. God is supposed to be all powerful enough to prevent X, but He is not supposed to be in control of Y, because that's MINE.

 

I have wrestled with many things over the years. I have not understood more than a few things in my life, and I admit I have shaken my fist - literally - toward the sky and yelled at God for not being there, so to speak. I have no idea why I have lost people I love or had illnesses or experienced certain things. I still don't know all the why's.

 

So why do I have faith?

 

Because I do. That isn't a satisfactory answer, I know. I also have a high IQ, graduate degrees, and a mind that is always exploring and questioning. And I still believe. Because I have seen and heard and felt and known God's love for me. And no, I do not have any diagrams or carbon dating of His actions in my life. But my faith is real. As real as anyone else's skepticism.

 

I've never felt the need to prove God to anyone. First, that is impossible. If He is completely humanly provable then there is no such thing as faith. And people who want complete proof do not want to have to exercise faith, so it is a futile task. That is not meant to be snark. It is just a fact. It would be like me demanding definitive proof that cannot be explained away or contradicted in any sense that Julius Caesar existed. That is impossible, and I know it is impossible, so I would be setting you up to fail.

 

But neither can anyone prove that there is no God or that He does not love us. They can choose to believe (or not believe), and they can posit those beliefs, but they cannot prove them.

 

In my mind, the best we can hope for is to be adults, be compassionate, and choose to live side by side with people are see things differently from us and NOT feel the compelling need to denigrate them.

 

In other words, tolerance - the kind that goes BOTH ways.