Marriage and moving in together... is commitment too much to ask?

[Venetian]

My boyfriend and I had one of those Important Relationship Talks on the weekend, and I was hoping some of you kind and knowledgeable people could offer some advice.

 

Basically, he suggested my ideals were unnatural and uncommon, whereas I'm rather fond of them.

 

As background, we've been dating for about 7.5 years, which is a long time even in human years. And in all that time he's lived close to me but never with me. He's often said he would like to move in with me, and seemed to be waiting for me to give the all-clear, but here's the sticking point. Unless I suddenly feel the need to get a platonic boarder in for cash purposes, I want to be engaged to the person I co-habitate with.

 

I feel like this is a fair compromise. I'm not saying I have to be married before I live with a partner, but I want some sort of commitment from him _ at least a promise of some coming commitment. I'm not demanding an immediate wedding date or a fancy engagement ring, I'm not hung up on the romance of a giant wedding day, I don't get teary at the sight of white dresses, I don't really care what my friends are or are not doing... I just want something other than words that demonstrates he's committed to the relationship and we are indeed a team.

 

He said this was unusual, that most people didn't have these ideals, that the idea was shocking to him, and then spent the entire night in a moody silence, saying he was "thinking".

 

I am now here on my own limb, feeling embaressed. In saying what I did I feel like I've as good as proposed and received a quizzical expression followed by a confused refusal. After almost eight years together, in which we expressed our love for each other daily and had only minor arguments, it's pretty devastating to find myself alone on the idea that we might commit to one another.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think I was right to request some sort of commitment before he brought his debt and excess furniture into my home (thought that could be the "angry" me thinking), and if he cannot promise me marriage at some point after almost eight years together, perhaps I have become a sad and somewhat trodden-on woman who hangs in there when she is not "the one".

 

Any thoughts? Advice? Similar tales?

[loony]

Your wish for an engagement and a more concrete prospect of marriage in the future is understandable after seven years, what I don't understand it why you turn it into a condition. Are there any religious or moral reasons?

 

I just wrote in another post that I thought marriage is a declaration of love so I'm in no way someone who opposes the idea of commitment in a relationship I do think different though when it comes to co-habiting. I'm not sure if this is an American thing, but where I live people moving in together before they are married is a very normal thing and I think the best way to find out if you're truly compatible and can manage to live together harmonically. Maybe one day I will be so much in love and run away to Las Vegas or Green Gretna, but if not I will probably run a test before I take the big step. I don't consider co-habiting a big deal, nothing where I would expect some kind of official declaration of commitment from my partner, in fact, I'd consider this a little bit too much when someone wants to get engage with me just because we move in together.

 

So, my expectations in regard to co-habiting does not coincide with yours, what I understand though is your anxity and the wish to see some kind of commitment from your boyfriend. Seven years is a long long time and it's understandable if you want to see this relationship move forward, at the same time I also understand your boyfriend if he doesn't consider an engagement to be essential for living together, what I don't understand though is that two people can be together without having solved a quite serious problem. I would wonder now if the communication in this relationship is really that good and if there are not more hidden issues that you or he are obvlivious of. Your relationship seems to move at an extremely slow pace and I wonder who or what is causing this. Maybe it's both of you, you expect too much and that's why he doesn't want to give it. He doesn't want to give it and you push him even more. Or maybe he just doesn't want to commit and the engagement is a good reason for him not to give in. I kind of doubt it though, according to your description he seems to be kind of frustrated himself.

 

You should sit down and talk with him. Why you need this official declaration from him. What you fear will happen when you move in together without being engaged. Then listen to his point of view. If you listen well, you will find out if he wants to commit and just feels pressurized by you, because you expect it too early or if he just likes to drag your relationship on without any commitment. It's important that you give him a chance to explain himself.

[Venetian]

You make some good points and ask some pertinent questions.

 

Basically, this issue is based around an ideal I set a long time ago based on both moral and religious convictions. I know a lot of people think of moving in together as something of a trial run or an act of convenience, but I still can't bring myself to see it so haphazardly. As others in this forum have opined, many men feel they do not need to wed a woman when they're living with her the way they want anyway. I just want to make sure he's committed to the relationship in the same way I am. I see moving in together as a big, fat risk.

 

And perhaps it would be easier if I saw marriage as you do _ a declaration of love, rather than a commitment to another person. I suppose it comes down to a matter of perspective in that sense. I'm not sure when I jumped out of line with everyone else.

 

On the subject of communication, you're probably right. I probably haven't been as forthright as I could have been, but all that holding back just seems justified now, as I opened my mouth to feel pretty thoroughly rejected. Now I have to keep reminding myself that that stoopid book "He's just not that into you" was written by SATC scriptwriters.

 

I'll talk to him about all this, no doubt, but it's good to type to some impartial observers sometimes Thanks.

[Thinkalot]

I agree, that after that long together, wanting some sign of committment is very justified. But, you need to give him a chance to think and talk about it some more. These sort of things, need to be aired openly and patiently.

 

Also, I'm probably no good at advising you, as I am a firm believing in living together BEFORE you commit to marriage, as I believe it is the only way to really get to know a person.

[magda]

I don't think you're doing anything wrong. Living together is a lot of commitment on its own, whether you're letting in a platonic friend or a lover it is a big step. You need some kind of agreement either way. You need, like everyone else has said, to talk, talk talk. Plan and plan some more. Set in stone where each of you stand and if you can't find a compromise, no go! Right or wrong shouldn't apply in relationships.

[magda]

oops, double post.

[kgal]

Umm.. he should propose!! I think that if a man even thinks of his SO moving in... he should at least ask her to marry him. My bf asked me this and I told him that unless we were married or engaged... he hasn't brought it up again since. Hmmm... Im stumped on why men can't commit so easily.

[Thinkalot]

Originally posted by magda

Right or wrong shouldn't apply in relationships.

 

Exactly. But by that definition, he is not wrong if he doesnt want to feel like he HAS to propose, so you can move in together. He may prefer to live together for a while, which in my view, is perfectly understandable.

 

But you need to be able to compromise somehow, and BOTH feel happy with the outcome. Good luck in talking about it. Try and respect each others feelings and views and differences. It's so hard sometimes to do that.

[Venetian]

Thanks for the responses. I agree that neither of us is right or wrong here (cheers Magda). There's just two very different ideas on how the relationship should progress. For me, though, it's raised some "interesting" questions.

 

I'm not sure where there's a compromise here, essentially. If he moves in, I've ditched my ideals so he can feel more comfortable. If he proposes, he's not doing things the way he would like and I'll probably feel like it was forced.

 

And I don't want to force him to propose, which leads me to my secondary problem. If a man doesn't want to marry you after seven years, and the thought sends him into a thunderous silence, surely that only has bad connotations.

 

Thinkalot, you seem to suggest that some people think of living together as the ultimate test that should happen before marriage. Could he be thinking of it as some sort of qualifying exam? At this point, I'd prefer this explanation to the "he's just not that into you" version. While we'll no doubt talk about this as a couple far too much in the coming days, I'm still a bit too upset and concerned about this portion of the problem to move on.

 

And KGal, I'm stumped on why men and women's ideas on commitment are so divergent. Sorry you're in a similar situation, but I'm glad you put it out there so early! At least you know you won't be stuck like me!

[loony]

Originally posted by Venetian

Basically, this issue is based around an ideal I set a long time ago based on both moral and religious convictions. I know a lot of people think of moving in together as something of a trial run or an act of convenience, but I still can't bring myself to see it so haphazardly. As others in this forum have opined, many men feel they do not need to wed a woman when they're living with her the way they want anyway. I just want to make sure he's committed to the relationship in the same way I am. I see moving in together as a big, fat risk.

I do see moving in together with someone who is not that into you as the "big fat risk" that you described. But you will only find it out if you talk with your boyfriend. Maybe he does have the same point of view as I have and as I said even though I was very much in love with someone, if he demanded an engagement from me so that we could live together I would feel very uncomfortable about it.

 

And perhaps it would be easier if I saw marriage as you do _ a declaration of love, rather than a commitment to another person. I suppose it comes down to a matter of perspective in that sense. I'm not sure when I jumped out of line with everyone else.

I absolutely believe that a solid foundation for marriage and love is commitment and dedication and these things do not contradict or exclude one another. I just see co-habiting as a further step in getting to know each other better. Maybe you think you do already and that therefore an engagement is logically the next step, but if I see how you two are not able to come to an agreement about things like co-habiting and committing I rather believe that you two need to work on some issues in your relationship first.

 

You see an engagement as proof that he's committed to you while he probably doesn't feel read for anything official yet. He would like to live together with you first, but you can't because it's against your religion and your understanding of moral. The pressure for you for is there because fact is both of you have been together for a long time, at that point of time I also probably would like something official. I guess, before the issues for you with simply shacking up were more based on religious and moral motives, now after a considerate amount of time has passed you're also facing doubts about his willingness to commit to you therefore it really starts to be a big problem for you.

 

I think you will only find a good solution when you talk with your boyfriend. I'm not going to say that you should throw out all your objections concerning co-habiting, but I can assure you it's less of a big deal then you might think. People still marry, just because you have decide to move in with your partner doesn't mean that you will be doomed with a non-official relationship for your lifetime.

 

Maybe you can agree to live together first and then after a couple of months he should propose to you or maybe you could go buy the engagement rings now together so you can see that he has the intention of making it offical, well, I don't know, you'll find a solution.

 

On the subject of communication, you're probably right. I probably haven't been as forthright as I could have been, but all that holding back just seems justified now, as I opened my mouth to feel pretty thoroughly rejected. Now I have to keep reminding myself that that stoopid book "He's just not that into you" was written by SATC scriptwriters.

Books are good but they are not the panacea to your problems. I don't like it that some people stick to the rules like glue. I think someone started a thread on books about communication (do a search for it) and there were some good recommendations. I believe more in improving communication between people than following rules.

[Thinkalot]

Excellent reply loony.

[weekell75]

Hi,

 

I feel the same way as the OP, I thought my BF was going to propose but didnt (see 'propose already!'). So I suggested us moving in, which we did, we rented an apartment. I wasn't comfortable with the idea, as I feel men can sometimes get too comfortable once they have the married lifestyle, but no actual commitment. We have been living together for 4 months now, and I am getting a little worried as to when he will propose. He thinks we should live together before getting engaged, so we can 'see if it works or not'. I agree with the OP - it DOES feel like I am on trial, and I don't like it. So I am giving it till xmas for him to do or say something (he knows my feeligns on this subject), and we shall see how it goes from there. Feels like I am in limbo at the moment.

Oh, I bought my own house, so he is moving in with me and paying rent. So this makes me even more uncomfortable, as we have no more commitment!!

Whaddya guys think?

[Iluvsiamese]

I see things the same as you all do. I have been hearing all of the classic excuses about why my guy will not make the marriage commitment. He is quite happy with the living together arrangement and I might be as well, if I didn't feel that he was holding back. He has been married before (when asked why he committed to that degree when the relationship was so problematic he said "because I loved her") and told me that he almost proposed to his last girlfriend (also a live-in) a few times. However, he has bluntly stated that we will not marry and can't imagine why this makes me feel uncomfortable. He knows that I would like to remarry, not right now, but in the future so why does he think that I will stay with him? He is trying to tie me to him in other ways but it is only making me feel trapped. I have also stated that it is not the financial benefits of marriage, or the legal rights that make me feel that marriage is important. It is the vows that are made to each other before witnesses that matter. To me, you are saying that "this person is the most important one in the world to me and I am proud of it." He consistently refers to me as "the missus" which causes endless confusion--I have had so many people ask how long we've been married and I find it embarrassing to have to set the record straight. Usually, I just say "we have been together for 2 years" and leave it at that but even that generally leads to more questions. I have objected to him calling me that, but he says he doesn't know what else to call me.

 

There are too many contradictions in his reasons and excuses for me to believe them. He can't see this. I have my own opinion on why he will not marry me (from things that he has said and done) and it is destroying this relationship. Sometimes, I think it's silly to lose a great relationship over the marriage question. But in truth, the question isn't really about that piece of paper, it's more about the reality of the relationship. I don't feel that he has been honest with me.

[MJTig]

May I ask what you think his reason is? I ask this not to get 'dirt" but to help you.

[Iluvsiamese]

I posted under the Cheating, Flirting and Jealousy forum, the thread is "Is he still in love with his ex after almost a decade?" http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t65952/

You can check that for a more comprehensive version of the story.

 

I believe that he is unwilling to close the door on his (former) marriage. While he believes that he cannot revisit that relationship, he won't let go of it either.

 

He is adamant that he loves me to distraction and I believe that he does love me. But he constantly focuses on her and his life with her and her children (not his) and their various pets. He feels that I am asking him to deny that he was ever married to her. I know he was married to her, I know he loved her, but I don't feel that this needs to be brought up every day of our lives. He is way too emotional and sentimental about her and I can't help but question it. Other people have noticed it as well, so it's not like it's my imagination.

 

He has made an effort to stop talking about her to me and I have decided to leave the room every time he starts. But I feel that she still occupies his thoughts, whether he talks about it or not. Hard to get past this now.

[weekell75]

Do you guys agree with me that when guys are living with you, they have all the advantages of living as a married man, but without any of the ommitment?

[weekell75]

sorry, meant Commitment!

[Venetian]

Good question. Unfortunately, that is what I suspect happens and one reason why I am so retiscent to move in with my partner without any form of commitment.

 

I do believe some men use living together as a trial, to try and work out whether it will work out in the long term with a view to proposing, but I am certain there are others who move in with their partners and then simply ask why they need to formally commit to the relationship. The latter seems rather hurtful to me if their partners had marriage in mind.

 

And just as an update on the original post, my boyfriend and I had a long discussion about our Important Relationship Talk. It turns out he thought I wanted to be married, rather than engaged, before moving in together, and took the news a little better when he worked out what I was trying to express. We're still not living together, we're still not engaged, but we have a better idea of where we both stand. I live in hope.

[hear_me_roar]

<i>Do you guys agree with me that when guys are living with you, they have all the advantages of living as a married man, but without any of the ommitment?</i>

 

There's a certain "why by the cow..." presumption implicit in this question that I don't quite agree with, but putting that to one side...

 

No, I don't think he's getting all the benefits. Sex, home cooked meals and someone on your arm is all well and good, but there's one thing a married man gets, and that's rock solid commitment, the knowledge that both parties believe that the relationship is permanent, not just something that's good enough for now, until something better comes along. Only marriage gets you that. At least, that's what my finance tells me, and that's exactly how commitment-phobic me eventually felt too.

 

That said, I've no doubt that there are plenty of men out there who are only too happy to move right on in and take all the benefits without the commitment. There may well be more than a few chicks who do likewise. But the fact that some people abuse the situation doesn't mean that any general rule can be drawn. If you move in with someone with a view to marriage, all goes well, you let it be known you want commitment and he still doesn't propose (or offer an upfront reason why not) than I think you need to really reconsider the relationship. Guys can only take all the benefits with none of the commitments if girls let them; and if they've let it happen those girls can scarely complain.

[bab]

Congrats Venetian! It's amazing how much a small misunderstanding can spin out of control, and how easily it can be fixed.

 

My fiance and I moved in together for a summer about 4 years ago. We were moving to the same town and couldn't afford to do it on our own. He was less than pleased when after the summer I made him move out. Then 6 months ago some friends of ours who have a really nice home came to us and asked us if we would like to rent their home while they traveled for about the same rent we were paying in our separate places. This was too good of a deal to pass up, and I jumped on it. Hence we were moving in together again.

 

I had always maintained the same stance you have. We have to at least be engaged, which came from a bad experience living with a previous bf. I was feeling a bit uncomfortable about the whole thing. I even told him that I would feel better about the whole situation if we were engaged first. He proposed exactly one week to the day before we moved in together. So, we still get the trial year, and we are both happy with the arrangement. Since we have been dating for 5 years, I'm fairly confident I know him and his habits well enough to know that we will be fine living with each other, plus we communicate very well, which helps. I'm guessing after dating for 7.5 years, you probably know each other fairly well too. Good luck with all that comes!

[weekell75]

Iluvsiamese,

Gawd, that can't be nice for you.

I think you are right to having doubts, i would be too.

My boyfriend used to talk quite a bit about his ex, until I got him to stop by talking about MY ex whenever he started up. Although maybe this might not work for everyone, he soon got the message. But he was, I think, quite harmlessly doing this, whereas I am not sure about your situation. he seems pretty caught up with his last relationship. I honestly think that men who are co habiting with women get all the benefits of marriage without the commitment. Maybe you should suggest he move out for a while? He could be getting too comfortable with his feet under the table.

Does he still have photos of her?

I think this could be sign that he is still thinking of her. This happened to me in a relationship, and when I found them (accidentally on purpose) and confronted him, he assured me nothing was wrong, and got rid of them (I think he just hid them extra well this time). But he did break it off with me in a very cowardly way some time after....and his reason? The ex.

Maybe we should trust this female intuition we are blessed with a little bit more.

[weekell75]

.

[loony]

Hey, Venetian, I'm glad you talked with your boyfriend.

[Iluvsiamese]

Thanks Weekell75. The funny (or not so funny) thing is that he was involved in a 6 year relationship between his marriage and me. He has stated that he considered marrying her on a couple of occasions. The reasons he didn't had to do with her children running the show and his losing respect for her in many other ways as well. He eventually gave up on it and said "I knew I'd never marry her, so why was I with her?" (Yikes! where does that leave me??)

 

Yes, he still has pix of his ex-wife, wedding ring, some of her linens and crafts etc. I don't feel that I should do the ultimatum thing wrt these items--he knows that the whole picture bothers me but hangs on just the same. If I "make" him get rid of his sentimental paraphernalia, he will just resent it. I feel that it's up to him to either make the break or not. So far, he is not. He has disposed of a few of her cross stitches that he had hung in our home (gave them to a buddy of his so he can still be in contact with them, lol, men are sooooo transparent!) but the rest I have not pointed out to him and so he is leaving them as is. I know about it and he knows that I do, but he is just ignoring it--kind of pretending that it isn't really there. It's kind of funny really.

 

But at the same time, it's difficult. We get along famously except for this one issue (a large one, yes) and I doubt if I would ever find anyone as compatible. So it's hard to decide to let go and move on when she has never contacted him since the divorce etc. and he has never contacted her. I feel myself moving in the direction of moving on, though. He is doing things to try to tie me to him in other ways, but even if he asked me to marry him I would feel that it was just so he wouldn't lose me and not because that's what he really wants. And so the point would be??